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Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

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Comments

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    I just noticed that '70 Impala doesn't have air conditioning. Still, seems like a nice car otherwise. And in my case, none of my old cars have functional a/c anyway, so I wouldn't know the difference. :P
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    A lot of people, especially in the northern states, chose to not add A/C on Chevys, Fords and Plymouths in those days, even on Impalas, Galaxies and Fury IIIs. As one might expect, factory A/C was more common on mid-priced brands, but it largely depended on where you lived. My parents, who lived in Wisconsin, bought a new '57 New Yorker, which they traded for a '63 Dynamic 88. Neither had A/C. Most didn't in the Upper Midwest, in those days.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    AC is a big plus on classic cars these days. Worth a good 5% to 10% of total value.
  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,272
    My first car was a 73 Charger

    A little short on details but what do you think?
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    I never liked that rear quarter window treatment, as I prefer a true hardtop where there's a choice. Still, from what little I can tell in the pics, looks like it could be a nice car.

    It would be nice if the seller had listed which engine it has. According to my old car book, the Charger SE has a standard V-8, so at the least, it has the 150 hp 318. It also lists a 240 hp 340, a 175 hp 400, a 260 hp 400, and even a 280 hp 440. My guess is that the vast majority just had the 318 or the 175 hp 400. But by now, who knows, it might have been hopped up.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Not enough details. It's a '73, so outside the 'desirability zone' for muscle cars, and if it's a small block and if it has a few needs, then the price is just about market correct.

    If it were a very clean small block inside and out, say a #3 car (clean daily driver) there could be some money left on the table here.

    But if there's some minor rust, or ripped upholstery, or missing parts, or bad body work, then the car is worth no more than he's asking.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    If that car just had the run-of-the-mill, 175 hp 400, would it be worth much more than the 150 hp 318?

    And, how would the 240 hp 340 stack up against the 260 hp 400 or 280 hp 440 for value? I wonder if the 340 might actually be the better choice, since it would be lighter than the big-blocks, but still has a lot of hp? I guess the 400 and 440 would out-torque it by a wide margin, though?
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,685
    If I really wanted a Charger, I'd save up for an earlier one. But if it was a '73, the 340 would be my choice, too. I tremble at the 440's mpgs....
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    Could those be had with a slant 6?
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    According to my old car book the lesser Chargers came with a slant six, which had 105 hp. But the SE came standard with a 318.

    I know it sounds sad, something that big having just a slant six standard, but that was par for the course in those days. FWIW, the 1973 Chevelle came standard with a 110 hp 250-6. However, the Monte Carlo, which the Charger SE nominally competed with, had a 145 hp 350.

    The Ford Torino that year had a ~137 hp 302 standard, but a 92 hp 250-6 was a credit option, apparently. I guess the Gran Torino formal hardtop coupe would've competed with the Charger SE. It was a bit cheaper, $3154 versus $3375 for the Charger SE. A Monte Carlo started at $3415 for the cheapest Sport Coupe, but the more popular S and Landau were $3562 and $3806, respectively.

    I guess the Charger SE should still get some credit for trying to pull off that sporty, musclecar look. In contrast, the Torino and Monte Carlo were going for that full-blown, pimpy, personal luxury coupe style. To be fair though, that's what the people wanted in those days.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Do you recall that black 1973 Chevrolet Bel Air at Carlisle that only had a 250 inline six? That motor must've had to work mighty hard to move that mass!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I think that by 1973, the difference in value among the V8s would not be very great---probably the 340 would be top dog but it would be neck and neck with the higher HP big blocks.

    The only way to get a lot of value out of a '73 Charger would be, ironically, to modify it with a "real" engine that could put out serious horsepower.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,856
    The only way to get a lot of value out of a '73 Charger would be, ironically, to modify it with a "real" engine that could put out serious horsepower.

    That is exactly what I was thinking, you certainly couldn't hurt its value by replacing the original engine. Actually, if that car checks out and looks good you could drop in a nice Hemi crate engine, maybe retrofit A/C (if it didn't have it) and have a nice cruiser for maybe 10-12K.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Oh you would definitely increase value by replacing the original boat anchor engine.

    I'd opt for a beefy 440, maybe a 6 pak. Hemis are very nasty engines to drive around on the street. They don't idle well, they overheat.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    Do you recall that black 1973 Chevrolet Bel Air at Carlisle that only had a 250 inline six? That motor must've had to work mighty hard to move that mass!

    Yeah, I remember it vaguely. Did it have a manual or automatic, or do you remember? One dog that always sticks in my mind was a 1977 Cutlass Supreme sedan that CR tested, with a 260 V-8. 0-60 came up in around 21.6 seconds! It was in a comparison with a Caprice with a 305, an LTD-II with a 302, and either a Fury or Monaco with a 318. The other cars, while no powerhouses themselves, were at least good for 0-60 in about 13 seconds.

    That Bel Air, if it had a manual, might have been slightly quicker than the Cutlass. I believe the Cutlass had a/c as well, which would slow it down. And by that time, the midsized cars got so heavy that a V-8 '77 Cutlass Supreme probably weight about as much as 6-cyl '73 Chevy! Even though the Cutlass just had a 260, it probably didn't weigh much less than one with a 403 would have.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,685
    "Hemis are very nasty engines to drive around on the street. They don't idle well, they overheat. "

    Not THAT Hemi, THIS "Hemi":
    image
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    that's worth more than the freakin' car! :surprise:

    long block + engine management system + lotsa $$$ labor
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,685
    "that's worth more than the freakin' car!"

    Oh, yeah. But it'd be a fun project, just resign myself to $0.25 on the dollar...maybe...
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,856
    that's worth more than the freakin' car!

    long block + engine management system + lotsa $$$ labor


    Find a wrecked newer 300C, swap it all over. Done! Weekend job! ;)

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    one of those 20-day weekends maybe.

    Let's see--what would one have to do?

    1. Get used engine and engine management system
    2. Prepare/fabricate motor mounts
    3. Fabricate cooling system
    4. Adapt to Tremec 5-speed
    5. fabricate drive shaft
    6. splice engine management computer and harness into existing wiring
    7. Install custom gas tank and fuel pump
    8. Fabricate custom exhaust
    9. Fabricate gauge pack/sensors
    10. install clutch pedal assembly
    11 install hydraulic clutch system

    so, that takes care of the first day ! :P
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,856
    I guess I wasn't the only one who thought of it!

    Car Craft

    Andre, what a sleeper one of your Fifth Aves would be!

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    Hemis are very nasty engines to drive around on the street. They don't idle well, they overheat.

    Would a more modern, reproduction Crate Hemi still have all of the same problems that the original 426 did, or would they have worked out any of the kinks?

    One nice thing about the modern "Hemi" (I use quotes because I hear it's not a true Hemi, but rather a pent-roof) is that, for the power it puts out, it gets surprisingly good fuel economy. In my Ram, for example, it's rated 14/20, which really isn't bad for 385 hp in something that's probably pushing 5,000 lb. I've averaged about 14.5 mpg since I've had it, but that's been mostly local driving, and the one time I took it on a trip, I did have a bit of a heavy foot.

    I'd imagine a transplant into something like that Charger would probably yield similar, if not better fuel economy. While the Charger would have a much higher coefficient of drag, it would have a lot less frontal area, and weigh a lot less.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    Andre, what a sleeper one of your Fifth Aves would be!

    If I had tons of money to blow, I've actually thought about putting a big block in one of my R-bodies. While they never came with anything that big, a 360 smallblock being the largest offering, the engine bay isn't that much different from the previous B-body (Coronet/Monaco, the "New, Small Fury", Cordoba, Magnum XE), so a big block will fit.

    Supposedly, if you simply ditch the Lean Burn, and go back to one of the simpler, early 70's distributor, carb and electronic ignition setups, the later 318's and 360's can put out some fairly decent power.

    A modern Hemi would be a pretty fun transplant, as well!
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    How hard could it be? I saw the guys on the Speed Channel do it in half an hour withoust even busting a knuckle or getting their hands dirty! :P
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    I've seen a PT Cruiser with a 426 Hemi under the hood, so I'm sure converting a '73 Charger to the modern Hemi should be more doable than that. Maybe the electronics and such would be more complex, but the physical/fabrication stuff shouldn't be as bad, considering there would be plenty of room under the hood of a Charger. I imagine the biggest problem would be getting a modern 5-6 speed automatic to fit...you'd most likely have to cut up the floorpan around the transmission hump, and fabricate something to accommodate the larger transmission.

    At least, I'm presuming these new transmissions are larger, physically, then the old Torqueflite 904 and 727. I've heard that when people started putting the 4-speed truck Torqueflite in older cars, they had to modify the transmission hump.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well as that article pointed out, this is no job for a rookie. You can apparently adapt small block transmissions to the new "Hemi" but not big block. Then of course you have all the electronics to deal with, new cooling system, special starter motor, exhausts, new alternator, power steering pump, gas tank, oil pan (new one won't clear the chassis) blah blah.

    This type of project could take months, maybe a year--not all working on the car of course, but tracking stuff down, making it work, making it fit, paying for it :P
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    The subject has come up before, about the cost to restore a 60s car. We all pretty much agreed that if you handed one over to a professional shop, the bill would bury you forever in the car.

    But what if you did most of the work yourself?

    Old Cars Weekly tracked the restoration of a '66 Mustang Coupe done by two guys who swapped labor (he helped his buddy build a garage, and his buddy helped with bodywork and assembly of new parts).

    In any event, even with very little outside labor charges, the receipts added up to $30,000...which still exceeds the value of a restored '66 Mustang coupe---but at least there's a chance that one day these costs and the value of the car will even out.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,856
    I think at some point for the person doing the job, part of the cost is just "in the hobby". Some guys play golf, some are audiophiles, others blow thousands of bucks on classic cars.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    True enough, but spending $80,000 and ending up with a $20,000 car isn't exactly a "chump change" kind of loss.

    $60K is a LOT of golf or sound equipment.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,856
    No not at all. I guess one's bank roll determines how far you get in. I'm sure this is the reason there are so many unfinished projects,

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    It seems like the unfinished projects are not in the hands of people of considerable means--it's more the "little guy"--the middle class folk---who get stuck in restorations.

    The rich can just write checks and the poor can barely get started on one, so it's the 50K--150K income crowd who can get in over their heads.

    Also the folks using the home equity as an ATM machine got into trouble.
  • boomchekboomchek Member Posts: 5,516
    I was browsing Craigslist and stumbled upon this 63 190D fintail that needs a head gasket.

    Worth fixing? How much would a head gasket job cost on this? And why doesn't it have side view mirrors?

    63 190D for sale

    2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    Worth fixing for someone who loves diesel fintails, but not something to flip. I don't know what it could cost to fix, but that interior hurts my eyes. It appears to be wearing 14" or maybe even 15" wheels off a later car. It would have a driver's side mirror - passenger mirror is a rare option. Maybe it was lost, car looks repainted. Chrome looks decent. If it the body is pristine and chrome is good, and assuming it isn't driveable, more like a $1500 car on a good day. Oh yeah, a 190D will be SLOW.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited March 2013
    Well whenever you open up an old engine, who knows? The head could be cracked--that happens on old diesels quite often. Then it gets pricey.

    And of course, once the head is off you want to do the valves, right?

    yeah I think $1500 is more than fair---it has the wrong interior, too. Bumperettes missing, front bumper dinged up.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    I was flipping through the channels last nite, and came across "Fun with Dick and Jane" on Antenna TV. In one nighttime shot, there's a quick glance of a Fintail, in sort of a medium/dark gray hue. Must have been a really obscure, quick shot, because it doesn't show up in the IMCDB.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    I was thinking about this car. It might be cheaper to simply replace the seats with a junkyard set rather than fix the upholstery - tex holds up well and it's not a hard job. I doubt an upholsterer could redo it cheaper, even if he's your friend.

    For the engine, if it has many needs, it will quickly pass the point where an engine transplant would be easier and cheaper. Maybe drop in a healthy 240D or even 300D unit into it - I have no doubt it would fit without much mess, and the car needs the power.

    If you keep it stock, here's what you get to look forward to

    So say $500 for junkyard seats, $2500 for engine work, and if it has no other needs (and you pay $1500 for it), you're in $4500, which might be as deep as you want to go, unless its a labor of love. Price goes up with a higher purchase price or more needs. Paying asking price has you in for 7K, which will be tough to recoup.

    Were the bumper guards standard or optional on these? I know on W111s, they were an option - my car has them ("Gardmeister" brand, real name).
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    I'll have to keep an eye out for that.

    If you like odd old films , there's one called "Pretty Maids All In a Row", where Rock Hudson plays a psychotic high school counselor, and drives a car virtually identical to mine, same color.
  • boomchekboomchek Member Posts: 5,516
    Yeah, you don't see too many for sale, I was more curious than actually wanting it. I figured the engine issue could be more than just a gasket and you probably have to find a good mechanic who knows these cars. I doubt that even a Mercedes dealer would touch one.

    2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    If everything on the car was fine, the price would also be fine. It could be a fun car, if you don't plan to do freeway driving.

    I suspect the old MB dealer in Van would touch it, but it might scare off some of the other branches. It would be financial suicide to take it to a dealer though, simply due to labor rates. A car like that needs an old timer independent, and an owner who is patient.
  • bhill2bhill2 Member Posts: 2,466
    OMG! The 190D in that video was an automatic! I can't even imagine what it would be like to drive it. I'm surprised it moves at all.

    2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    edited March 2013
    Worse yet, I am sure it is the same transmission as my car, which means 2nd gear start. You must have to floor it to make it move. I suspect 0-60 in that 190D is 30 seconds or so.

    Speaking of old diesels, this late run diesel ponton sounds and looks wonderful
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,440
    will a Hemi fit? That is my 1st answer to all power issues.

    I imagine you could easily squeeze in a smallblock Chevy if you wanted a real sleeper!

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    will a Hemi fit? That is my 1st answer to all power issues.

    Well, if it'll fit in a PT Cruiser, you never know!

    I imagine you could easily squeeze in a smallblock Chevy if you wanted a real sleeper!

    I wonder which engine is physically smaller, a Ford 302 or a Chevy smallblock? I know they're both notably smaller than a Mopar smallblock. I think one reason that the Sunbeam Tiger went away was because when Mopar took them over, their 273/318 A-engine would not fit in there, while the Ford 289/302 block would.

    One thing the Ford has going for it is light weight, around 500 lb. In comparison, the Chevy smallblock was a bit of a porker, around 575, although with modern technological advances, I guess newer crate engines are lighter. The Mopar smallblock, while physically larger, was only around 525 lb, 550 for the 360.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    You got time? You got money? You got skill? Great! You can put any engine into any car. :P

    Rule of Thumb: If you're buying a car with an engine malady, and you can't verify that malady prior to sale, then ASSUME THE WORST POSSIBLE OUTCOME when making your offer.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    No doubt a small V8 would fit - I have seen 5.0 Ford engines in W123s, supposedly not too tough. I was thinking something that could even be mated to the existing transmission and cooling system without many issues.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,685
    Just saw the episode on the Renault Alpine A310. Put 13,500 in, got 13,500 out (excluding labor). But it was great seeing them come up with a custom spanner to remove the wheel bearings.
  • bhill2bhill2 Member Posts: 2,466
    The problem with a V-8 transplant would be that the engine sound (or lack of it) would give the car away. Even a modern diesel would be too quiet. About the most powerful engine that I think could provide the right sonic ambience would be a turbocharged 3 liter from a 300SD or a '82+ 300D. Any other candidates? Of course, you could just put a speaker in the engine bay and feed it the sound of the 190D at idle. Once you are moving, the jig is up anyway.

    2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    An 80s era diesel can be made to be pretty loud, that might be a good bet. But, that won't win any races even as a turbo, it would just be easier to drive. If one is looking to be a freakshow sleeper drag racer, there's no real way to get that old sound.
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,440
    another interesting swap, and much easier to fit, is a 2.3l 4, or one of the kompressor engines. If the I6 fit, that should have plenty of room!

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • bhill2bhill2 Member Posts: 2,466
    edited March 2013
    Fact is, I could live with the performance of a 300 turbodiesel engine if it would fit. I like fintails and the 300 engine would make it useable on the freeway. I wonder if you could mate it up with the original 4-speed, and if it could take the greater output of the transplanted engine. I would want to swap out the rear end, I think. Didn't the 190D have a final drive ratio in the mid to high 4's?

    2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])

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