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Nissan Frontier Crew Cab vs Ford Explorer Sport Trac - II
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Comments
The truck perfomred well towing although I am curious as to how the AT works with respect to the OD. It seems on some hilss it "hunted" for a middle gear while going up really steep hills while OD was off. When I clicked it on, it found the right gear, about 200-400rpm higher than the with OD off. When the tranny went up one gear with OD off, it jumped from 3100rpm (at 58mph or so) to 4500+. Why couldn't the tranny find the middle gear at 3600rpm when the OD was off? Remember you said the rpm went up when you switched on OD? I had that happen a couple off times. It seems there is a gear that is about 500rpm different after each gear; 3rd and 4th. I really don't know - I am going to see if I can get to the bottom of it.
By the way; I do have the sunroof. I didn't buy the racks because I wouldn't use them, and I have had experiences in the past where the interior noise level rose when racks were installed. I also don't think they would look good with my cap. If you saw what I took camping this weekend, you would understand the immense value of the cap vs a hard top!
You know about the tranny o/d on/off thing, I experimented and meant to post it to you guys. What I found out was if I had my foot on the gas and (while I was traveling or in motion)switched the O/D on it the RPM's increased as I described but, as soon as I let up on the gas it all switched to lower RPM's like it should. When I took my foot off the gas pedal and switched the O/D on it was normal the RPM's lowered. Make sense? So what I do is if I'm going to switch to O/D just lift my foot off of the accelerator and swicth it...no problems. As for the hunting it's hard to say why other than a bad combination of weight, power and slope. That's going to happen with any vehicle with the same load percentage that you are carrying and slope differential.
I don't know that I will ever use the rack either but, I have it anyway. To me it makes the truck look bigger. There is definately wind noise w/o the wind-deflector on but, with it on I don't even hear it at all...of course I never hear any of it because I always have the radio on
Some of the Nissan guys are gonna jump right in and tell you "No Problem". The trade rags say "Problem". I am NOT an CC owner but if I were you I would wait and look at the new supercharged CC model due out at the end of the year. Especially since you'll be towing close to the MAX weight.
The trade rags consistently give low marks on the CC's standard 3.3 engine.
All of the above is IMHO. :-)
I have an old 4200 dry weight Coachman that the truck pulls easily - BUT, I have only pulled it without any extra weight (no battery or propane or clothes, food or beer, etc..)
In terms of power - Ford ST says that the trade mags cut the engine down. He could be right; but what I see the trade mags cutting down is it's zero to 60 times and passing prowess. I have seen trade mags, and I just posted about them a while ago that mention the 3.3l as a very torque(y), solid engine. That is what I agree with - it has the low end power to tow half decently. In my experience it can keep you and your 4500-5000lb trailer going at 50-60mph in hilly terrain. (if you live in the mountians, I am not as sure). Yes you will slow, but mosts trucks do when you tow. I just came back from a long trip, and I was slowed down by many other RV's that were being towed.
If you do decide on the CC here are a couple of hints I would highly recommend:
1. Use stabalizer bars (load Levellers). (A must)
2. Trailer brakes!!
3. Tranny cooler!!
4. Tranny heat gauge (nice to have, could do with out.
5. A roof wind deflector doesn't look pretty, but it will improve your towing power greatly.
6. Don't be in a hurry, and don't push the truck.
A last suggestion is to ask Nissan about their ratings and suggestions.
For those counting; that's 2 peeves; Sunroof shade and cup holders that stick and come out!
#3 pet peeve - ashtray location!!! Not being a smoker (thank God!! it would make this complaint worse!) I use the ashtray as a change holder. For those of you that own a CC you know where I am going, it sucks as a change holder! You usually need the change when the shifter is in park and the ashtray is located right behind the shifter. Try getting your grubby little fingers in there!! (It is also a [non-permissible content removed] shape for change!)
How about the ST? ny pet peeves yet??
To me the whole damn sunroof should be electric to begin with. I mean it is the year 2000. That's one thing that Honda has over anybody is their sunroofs, they are the best. Actually they're called a moonroof, because it's clear and has a sunshade that slides into the headliner.
And the center rear view mirror is too low.
Ash cup is fine. I move it to the open tray when I need another cup holder. The arm rest has coin slots so I put the soon to be extinct tokens in the ash cup.
ST sun roof is great. The drivers window, sunroof and rear window all have one touch open.
1. Front end- Looks like the ST. I bet this will attract more buyers, it has a muscular look to it.
2. Tires- Either the base tires are smaller, the truck is lower or both.
3. Interior- The same.
4. Fender flares- A matter of taste, personally I like the originals as they had a cleaner line with the style of the truck.
5. The best improvement (besides the turbo boost) by far is the tail gate re-do and the key for the gate. I would recommend the under the rail liner with this gate. The bed liner and the key housing do not look good together.
Overall opinion: The truck appears to be a good improvement. I don't think there will be too many complaints about power with the 210hp option. As for the Car & Driver comment about not placing the Maxima/Pathfinder motor in the CC, how many people would buy the Pathfinder if the CC and Xterra offered the same powerplant? What a load! Now Nissan can concentrate on the one thing over looked....interior comfort, specifically rear seat space.
So the CC's off road ability has been reduced to that of the ST. There goes your clearance advantage folks. Looks like the new CC owners will be reduced to dirt parking lots like us ST folks.
Actually even with the lowering,( I think 1-3CM)
The CC still has more ground clearance. Another thing I was reading about the ST is that it only has one serpentine accessory belt, this operates the water pump, PS, alternator and AC, bad design,
if that belt breaks, everything goes. FST, I took a closer look at an ST on the street today, it has
these plastic things, tie downs maybe? on the side of the bed at the top, do those ever get in the way for you?
Yep the ST has one BIG sprocket/serpentine type belt.
So I guess your saying the CC has
1 belt for the AC
1 for the Power Steering
1 for the Water Pump and
1 for the brakes.
Just to be the devils advocate... It seems like allot of maintenance to me. And if you break the belt in the back you can be assured the mechanic will say "listen I have to remove all the belts to get to the back belt so you might as well replace them all now $$$." And the only belt that could break and still safely drive the CC would be the AC belt. Doesn't sound like a benefit to me. I'll stick with the fewer moving parts and single belt.
The tie down cleats on the sides of the bed are rated at 70lbs each. I use them almost every time I haul stuff taller then the bed. They are VERY convenient. They also make a great place to hang my daughters diaper bag while I reach in for her car seat.
With the Tonneau cover installed they are VERY handy for tying down large stuff like inflatable toys, rafts and inner tubes. That still leaves the entire locked bed for the more important stuff.
And to address your comment about them getting in the way.... No the fender flares out too much for anyone to hit them while walking by.
And 3 CM would bring the CC extremely if not exactly the ground clearance of an ST.
It's really sad because this was Nissan's chance to set the mark again with a style they got the jump on. By the end of the model year it will be two years behind the rest for sure!
I know you were only breaking horns but I own a 2000 my ride hieght hasn't changed
On that point it was only the RIDE hieght not the clearence that was changed. To change the clearence they would to change tire size or the design of the 'pumpkin'. If Nissan didn't spend any money on changing the design of the truck they certainly didn't on changing the design of the pumpkin, maybe tires but the CC I saw tonight had the same tires that are on my truck.
Maybe it is just me, but I would rather have one thing go out than four, as to the maintenance cost of replacing the belt, what do you think costs more, 2 extra small belts, (assuming it was the back one that broke and you did want to replace the other 2) or one serpentine belt? I see what you are saying about the tie downs on the side, just from looking at it, I thought they may poke you in the ribs when trying to get something out of the side. Actually I think Mahi is right, it is just the body that was lowered a tad, and even if not, there is still a 3" difference in ground clearance, 6.7" vs 9.7".
How many belts does the CC actually have?
What do those belts Drive?
Mahi..
If they lowered the body 3" where did the 3" go? Does the new CC have less head room? Lower Ground clearance? Did they lower the frame? It had to go somewhere.
Belts: I was checking out the engine the other day and I thought I saw 3 belts...I would be concerned about having only one belt because if it breaks, it means tow! With 3 belts, it could be tow, if the belt that breaks, breaks the other belts. I also think that the time saved to change one belt is probably minimal. As to cost, wouldn't you have to make the one superbelt much stronger, which could make the one belt cost close to the three belts? Also, with three belts, the chances of changing all three at the same time is small, but with one you are in effect changing all three every time. I think if a mechanic gets onto this discussion, he/she could probably give us sound opinions.
Did they say the CC GROUND CLEARANCE was lowered, or the BODY height was lowered. Also, did they say 3 CM or 3 inches (1 inch = 2.5CM)? If they said body lowered, the ground clearance doesn't change and you don't lose inside room. If they said ground clearance, then they must have changed the tire size and the whole suspension (which they might have).
godawgs2000 - So you have had your new ST for over a month...Comments??
Has 3 belts. The ground clearance has stayed the same, the body was slightly lowered to give it a "stance" does not effect the interior room at all.
It is not inches, but cm, this was for cosmetics, just like you can have a body lift kit that raises the body, ground clearance stays the same and room does too. Well, I have had a chance to see most of the colors and options and interiors on all of the frontiers now. My observations;
Best looking crew cab-SE in Alpine green with black body side molding, VERY NICE!
Best looking Desert runner, Yellow XE with the black fender flares and bumper.
Best looking 4cylinder, tie-red XE with black fenders and silver ice with body colored package.
I agree with Mahi (I think it was him) about the SE cloth interior, I have no idea how they come up with some of this stuff, the dark checkerboard does not look good at all, although the tan interior looks good, I like it, (less contrast).
Then again, I did get used to the tiger striped SE interior in the 2000's too after awhile. The tan interior in the XE's is alot better than the 00's.
It doesn't look too light, I almost thought it was the grey at first, simple pattern, nice texture, very good. FUlly loaded CC's with the leather package is very nice, almost feel like you are sitting in a maxima, the auto load 6 disc changer is nice especially with the RDS and the steering wheel controls. Also the new wheels for the XE models are much improved too, I do wish they changed the 16" on the SE's though, but I do get the feeling they will once they use up the old stock. I haven't read anything about it, but it seems like they put more sound insulation in it, seems a little quieter. We are trying to hide most of them in the back until we get rid of the rest of the 2000's, (only have 3-4 left) but people keeping having us pull them around, Oh well, it's work. Very positive response so far, I am already taking deposits for particular models again, well,
I will post more later, don' want to be too long.
Have only driven through Arizona a couple of times on my way to Vegas (in a older 200sx). Got dinged in '87 for a $179 ticket for going 92mph; I think I was in Nevada though. Never did pay the ticket; I figured they wouldn't extradite me from Canada for that! It is hard to keep the speed down on those flat long roads!
I usually make it to Vegas at least 4 times a year.That was another reason on the color.When we park in the parking garage it would be easy to spot.
Ford has problems with, steering wheels falling off at the factory, no manual tranny in the ST because of problems with it, delays and recalls on the escape, all the problems with the mustang cobra, paint missing on the ST, leaky sunroofs, gas tank lids rubbing, ranger 4.0's leaking, dieseling, wipers possessed, etc, etc, ford has done some of the most expensive and numerous safety recalls of any manufacturer, the windstar is almost as much of a reliability joke as the chrysler van transmissions, and still people go on and on about how they are built just as good as the imports, I think ford does alot of things right, like safety, nice convenience features, decent ride on most models, fairly attractive designs, and I can see overlooking quality for those things to a certain degree, but come on, what's the deal?
Sorry been in the other topics. If I had to guess it would be the suspension that would be shorter. The body is the same axles 'look' the same tire, wheels and soforth were the same that I have. But, I thought that what I read was that it was only the S/C models that were shorter, I can't remember. I know it was an article testing the S/C and they mentioned the hieght thing because of better center of gravity because they expect people buying the S/C will want the performance or something like that. But I believe it's in the suspension, I was supposed to be only like an inch or less too.
Second, the buying base for the Explorers is much different than the Nissan. On average,the Nissan buyer is younger and more activity inclined. The majority of the Explorer buyers are soccer mom types. They have usually had a little car to get around in. They have kids now and all their friends have SUVs. They buy a loaded SUV and want car performance from it. The more options they have, the more potential things that ccan go wrong. They are also in the age group that is most involved with the internet.
All these factors play a large part of the bitching. Almost every make has a 'my (blank)sucks' forum. People love to wallow in the negatives and don't want to count virtues. In one of James Herriot's books, the farmer who was warned that because he had waited too long and was likely to lose the calf, ranted in a booming voice about the poor vet'nary service, while the man with the soft, low voice was praising a miraculous cure. To judge any make on the basis of the loud angry people is ignorant.
Even though they make more vehicles, they all should be made almost identicle at the factory, why don't we hear news reports of Camry's steering wheels falling off or Crew Cabs with missing paint etc.? And why is Ford rated under the industry average in quality and the imports higher? These reports are based on problems per 100 vehicles.I just don't buy the argument that the imports don't have as many problems as ford because they don't build as many, and that it has nothing to do with how they are built, if there is a design flaw or defective manufacturing, the problem will be there whether you build 100 or 100,000 of them.
I'm not bashing Ford. Owners of Ford Explorers are finding fault with Ford and voicing their displeasure on the various forums. I believe that a consumer should arm him(her)self with all available information before making such a large purchase.
Now thats stretching the truth. If you want to do some math we can compare Edmunds figures.
Go ahead and do the math; but - if the dealers don't want to deal on price with the ST - the "math" lflsd does works. In fact, I paid about $9000can (if not more) less for my CC than a somewhat comparably equiped ST (including taxes). Now convert the $9000 to US and that is $6000US
Give a $1000 bucks because I got a great deal on the CC & you know the rest. MSRP is not the true cost of a vehicle; it is just a suggestion to the dealers. Some auto companyies try to allow more GP for their dealers than others, so some dealers have more room to play with prices. lflsd is probably right in his marketplace and maybe many others.
Actually,I did answer, it has three, for the water pump, PS, alternator and AC, I haven't looked at it to see which one drives two, the other thing with the serpentine belt, is if the AC compressor goes out, clutch freezes, the belt will either break or loose tension, then the water pump, alternator and PS will go out too.
There are many reasons people buy vehicles, and every person uses different reasons for their purchase. My take on why Ford sells so many Explorers is a combination of many reasons; styling, functionality, price, variety, # of models and options, dealerships, company vehicles, etc.. All these things combined make the Explorer the best all round SUV out there. Notice I didn't mention quality/reliability? Many times it does not come into play in purchasers minds; Soccer mom's, Company lease managers (who, by the way have to buy American), RVers, and people like FordST (who has mentioned his reason's for the ST, and quality/reliability wasn't the main one) are concerned about the Utility and looks.
Now, I am not saying the Explorer has bad quality/reliability (I don't personally know!!!) just that people are buying it for other reasons first.
Another point is, Quality/Reliability has to have a comparison point. In other words, if you drove a 1995 Windstar and then bought a 1999 Windstar you are going to think the 1999 has great quality/reliability. The only problem is, your baseline is a vehicle that approached the first Hyundai Ponys in crappyness (if that is a word). So that same 1999 Windstar will get a high report card from former 1995 Windstar owners, but wouldn't do so well if a person owned a 1995 Accord/Camry and bought the 1999 Windstar.
To make a long post short - QUALITY/RELIABILITY is subjective compared to each persons past experiences. So if Consumers Reports polls 20000 Explorer owners and asked how would they rate is reliability (from 1-10) they are going to rate it based on their past vehicles (which are probably US made) and 20000 Nissan owners are going to rate it based on their previous vehicles (mostly Nissan). That is a problem with Consumer Reports, they don't have a baseline for comparisons.
I, personally, am not happy with ANYTHING going wrong with my vehicle; whether it is covered by warranty or not. That is why I put a lot of stock in the reliability of a vehicle; that is why I bought Nissan again - not because Ford was bad, but because Nissan is good; mostly.