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Any downside to buying a hybrid?
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I doubt you've ever driven one. A good driver knows the limits of his/her vehicle. If I'm in a Hummer 1, 2 or 3, and an accident is imminent, and the choice is a major swerve and possible rollover or hit a Civic or Prius, which probably caused the accident, well, I'm not endangering my passengers to try to avoid hitting a little econobox. What would be the point? An 18-wheeler and I think differently.
VERY VERY few accidents are large SUVs exchanging kinetic energy with subcompacts. The statistics show that larger vehicles are not significantly safer than smaller vehicles.
See that page and look at the death rates for vehicles. Size has nothing to do with it.
Smaller hybrids can be as safe as Suburbans, and are definitely safer than Ford F-150s.
And Heyjewel, on your analogy about "not trying to avoid a little econobox" well that's just not possible. Natural human reaction by default is to avoid an accident, so you will not have time to say in your mind, "That's just a Civic I'll just hit it." It doesn't work that way in the Real World.
When the Prius first came out Toyota invited a group of auto journalists to its plant in Japan and to its crash testing facility. In front of this group, as reported by the Toronto Sun, they crashed an '04 Prius into an '04 Prado ( LX470 ) using a 40km/h offset crash method as which is actually more 'stressful' than that used by the IIHS and most other countries. The reporter's reaction as reported in the article was "My first reaction was that the Prius actually came away better than the bigger SUV, but a closer examination of the cabin areas of each vehicle showed both had remained remarkably intact". Nov 9 2003.
Common sense and physics would seem to lead one to believe that the lighter vehicle would be destroyed by the 3 Ton monster. It's not the case however.
That being said if any car is T-boned by a 6000 lb SUV or Truck the occupants are at much more risk - unless they have S&C A/B. Then the car occupants might walk away only bruised.
kdhspyder
That brings to mind the fact that small cars are hugely more safe now than 20 or 30 years ago, thanks in most part to Government mandates.
If anyone chooses to buy one of the smaller hybrids, they can be assured that they are driving pound for pound one of the safest vehicles on the road.
Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (hwysafety.org) quote:
"Why can't I compare vehicles from different categories? The kinetic energy a vehicle must absorb in a crash test increases with vehicle weight, so offset tests are more demanding of heavier vehicles. But people in heavier vehicles in real-world, 2-vehicle crashes typically fare better than people in lighter vehicles (in many single-vehicle crashes, weight offers no safety advantage). This is why test results shouldn’t be compared among vehicles with large weight differences. "
This whole thread started because of your holier-than-thou attitude when u basically stated there is no logical reason for soccer moms to drive a Hummer. What I'm saying basically is: It's none of YOUR D__N business what anyone else drives. I know there are lots of green liberal demos who would love to legislate the driving choices for the world, perhaps you're one of them? Thankfully it still looks like here in America we will retain our freedom of CHOICE despite the whims of control-freaks and enviro-whackos.
And to the driver who avoids Hummers and garbage trucks in his econobox - that's a good start to keep yourself safe. But if you all think your little cars are as safe as larger vehicles, well, you're just drinking Toyota's KoolAid.
BTW, have any of you an opinion on Toyota's new totally disingenuous BS TV advertising for their wonderful clean cars? Will the grass be greeener? etc. As if Toyota doesn't make Tundras or Land Cruisers. It's funny but when the whackos attack SUVs either in print or with spray cans or molotov cocktails, they always attack Ford and GM. Never Toyota or Nissan. Anyone care to take a guess why?
???
A fully loaded Prius (w/ package #6) has an MSRP of $26,880 according to Edmunds. And it has an invoice price (including destination) of $24,306.
So for Costco to quote you a price on a fully loaded Prius of $3k under invoice, the price would have to be around $21.3k for a new package #6 Prius.
I think someone is making a mistake somewhere......
You provided some good data to show that small vehicles are safe, but you can't fool the laws of physics and heyjewel is right a larger vehicle has more weight, therefore more kinectic energy and it will more likely substain less damage when it crashed against a smaller vehicle.
To give you a more graphic example have you every seen any of those videos where a train hits a Suburban. It smashes the 5 star rating Suburban as if it were a tin can.
So getting back on topic, a Hybrid is typically lighter in weight and even though it might be 4 or 5 star crash tested in its class of size and weight, it might not fare well aginst a much heavier vehicle. That could be ocnsidered a disadvantage.
YMMV,
MidCow
P.S. - Not that Hummer iwould be my choice, but one of my neighbors just purchased an H3 and it looks pretty sharp and doesn't seem to have any rear split window blind spots.
Don't use "I don't think they are safe" as a reason to bypass a hybrid, because that's not true and is definitely not a "downside to buying a hybrid."
I no longer live in a snow and ice area but when I did, ithought it was somewhat ironic that the cars most often stuck in the ditches or involve in crashe for goign to fast under the conditions, especially the glaze ice, were the 4-wheel drive vehicles.
They could start better ( even though FWD usually does very well) but they forgot that on slick roads 4-wheel drive doesn't stop any better than FWD or RWD.
I would envison most hybrids will do fine in snow and Ice especially the ones with traction and skid control.
Cheers,
MidCow
1) You are wrong about the MSRP...
2) It would be more educational if you told us what Costco quoted you.
I'm not going into full detail of my personal efforts at recycling and conservation, but just will say that I am a staunch believer in both. I drive an HCH, my recycle bin fills up far faster than me garbage bin, and my average utility bill is about 50% lower than an average home my home's size.
I think waste is repugnant, and I think buying and driving a large SUV when a smaller vehicle would do the trick is absolutely idiotic.
( I had a bossy wife and five kids at the time, and we THOUGHT we needed an Avalanche - worst decision in my life to buy that truck. )
As far as the needs of the Soccer Mon - most 7-seater minivans will hold as many people and as much gear as a Hummer, and they do have roof racks too, and they get usually twice the MPG of a Hummer, and ALL produce smaller amounts of harmful emissions than a Hummer.
No Soccer Mom needs a Hummer - ever.
Also, let's try to avoid trying to PROVE things here. Discuss, disagree, wonderful.
But positions are pretty solid on both sides and nobody is budging, no matter how many times you try.
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2005/toyota/prius/100454051/optionsresults.html?action=2&tid=ed- munds.n.options.ntmv.1.1.Toyota*
If these numbers are in error, you may want to let Edmunds know.
I haven't gotten ANYTHING quoted from Costco. All I was questioning was your belief that Costco gave you a price $3k under invoice for a 'fully loaded' Prius. What exactly was the dollar figure quoted to you for a 'fully loaded' Prius?
Forget the fact that you already bought a Prius: if Costco were truely offering Prius's for $3k under invoice, I would take a second mortgage out on my house to buy every last one they let me buy at that price and then flip them on E-bay for a healthy profit. Particularly when the actual market value appears to be OVER MSRP.
Just because it may be interesting doesn't make it on topic.
This discussion is supposed to be about possible downsides to buying a hybrid. It's NOT hybrids vs SUVs.
We simply can't wander off in ANY direction just because it's "interesting".
$2000 less on gas every year.
Seriously though I work in an area which has a heavy military emphasis. A common comment here is .. 'I'd do anything to keep from sending money to the MidEast'. The 'oil tax' the Saudi's and Iranians have placed on us is not so different than what the British did in the 1700's. And that resulted in..... This is of course the real reason the President and Congress pushed up the tax incentives.
Perhaps we need another revolution like in 1776. It can be done.
But as we both stated above free choice is what this is all about. You DO have the right to stroke a check ( or two ) directly to the Consulates of Saudi Arabia and Iran if you think your gas payments are are not sufficient and take too long getting to the MidEast because they have to go through too many middlemen.
Peace brother,
kdhspyder
Someone in a HCH is more likely to drive only their kid to practice...That is why they don't own an suv...
So is A Suv with 4 passangers as economical as a HCH with One passanger...You do the math.
I am with you all the way on that statement.
I am not convinced on the global warming being affected by me buying a hybrid. I agree with your assessment of our ability to get oil out of the ground with the least impact to the environment.
I still have reservations about the hybrid long term reliability. I want a car I can park and leave sit for a couple months, jump in start it and go. Hybrids seem to be limited in that capacity. I am taking a wait and see attitude on hybrid technology for the long haul.
Possible downsides to buying a hybrid is our purpose here!
Thanks for your cooperation and participation!
You might plug in a CA zip code and check the Edmund's TMV on a #6 Prius. It is $29,067 without any additional options. In CA you are looking at $32k with TTL. That is before the end of the year. Who knows what the dealers will add after the first. They will want a sizable chunk of that tax credit. All I see surrounding the Prius is greed, not Green.
But as in all places taxes and fees are the same whether you buy a $29K Explorer, Avalon, Pathfinder or Prius. In CA, NY and NJ where the auto taxes are very high the amount above the vehicle cost is going to be high. I'll assume your math is correct. In other places the taxes are lower and the 'state charges' are only abt $1200. Again you choose where you want to live.
Here is the comparison you are looking for I believe:
LE 4c Camry Base model $21750 List
LX 4c Accord Base model $21600 List
'05 Prius Base Pkge #2 $22500 List
XLE V6 Camry Loaded w/ Navi & Leather ~$29800
EX V6 Accord Loaded w/ Navi & Leather ~$29000 ( I'll defer to others on this )
'05 Prius Pkge #6 w/ Navi & Leather added ~$28700
2005 Tax incentive $500-600
2006 Tax incentive TBD $2000-$3000
At least in the Mid Atl region noone is charging above sticker.. at Toyota's request. I cant speak for CA.
Any questions?
kdhspyder
The bottom line is hybrids simply are false economy, the additional purchase price of a hybrid buys a lot of fuel, even at today's prices. I see no clear advantage of buying one over toyota's own Scion Xa.
You really have to want a Prius to justify one in CA. You can get the XLE Camry 4c with leather and fancy wheels for a TMV of $21,336. The Prius #6 is $29,067. After TTL the Camry is under $23k the Prius is over $32k. $9000 will buy a lot of gas in the Camry with a lot more luxury and better handling. Did I mention the Camry is now SULEV II rated for CA.
Here is a unique situation though. Toyota is running out of cars! Huh? They project an increase of 130K+ sales in the US next year but at the moment many dealers have less than 12 days supply of cars. SUV's and trucks are a different story for sure.
For example we normally have 30-40 Corollas in stock along with 50-100 Camry's. At present we have 8 corollas and 12 Camry's. The run up in fuel prices has drained the supply pipeline on cars.
Corolla's are on order as are all Scions and only V6 Camry's are present in any amount.
The reason I point this out is that the TMV on Edmunds might be suspect at present. A loaded up XLE 4c Camry, no Navi, lists for ~ $25500. It has to be ordered and the price is very near $25K. Supply and demand may balance out by Dec when production catches up and if fuel drops back under $2.50. But then Georgetown will stop production for 4-6 weeks to retool for the new '07 on Mar1.
kdhspyder
kdhspyder
Didn't think so. Please compare apples to apples.
On order... fully loaded Prius/ sans leather.... $500 under MSRP.
Woo hoooo... can't wait!!!
Dunno.
Toyota is dependable as any car made you can bet the Hybrid will be very reliable...they would not blow their reputation by putting out and inferior product...
Have you ever let a car sit for months..If so, you can buy a simple battery charger and just leave it on trickle charge.
1) The straight gas cars get very good milage on the freeway but that drops dramatically in stop and go traffic and short trip driving...NOT SO WITH A HYBRID
2) Echo, tercel, Corolla, Scion are all fine cars...If you want bare bones...but they are small and do not have the features of a Prius or the New Civic hybrids...Features like Stability control, 6 airbags, Nav, Power windows and mirrors, Up graded sound systems Bluetooth...ETC.
3) The Hybrid is Cleaner then the all gas cars...and gets better gas milage then the all gas econobox cars in mixed driving....and on the freeway for that matter
4) The Hybrid has far more power then the Econoboxs...expecially from a standing start.
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Care to venture into macro-economics ?
I'm no expert, but if Americans only bought what they need, as opposed to what they want, neither you nor I will have a job today.
Well, maybe that's overstating it. But the economy will certainly not be where it is, salaries will be significantly lower, standards of living will be lower, as well as a whole bunch of other things.
But we'll probably have cleaner air and more oil reserves.
No one is going to lose a job (permanently gone forever) because of the shift from larger to smaller cars - the number of cars sold is not going to go down, but up, as usual, so the jobs will still be there.
I can see why the manufacturers focused first on making practical sedans even more practical, but I hope the model selection is expanded to include new choices that provide a truly entertaining ride in going from Point A to Point B!
As some point, when Toyota offers ALL their vehicles with a hybrid option, something they have promised to do, we MIGHT see that combination.
More likely, it will be a 20% MPG increase and a $1500 premium at minimum if I were guessing, which I am..... :shades:
But I agree with your search for something more than the Prius/Civic. These are initial but highly successful steps. I see what Toyota has lined up and I'm impressed by the width and variety. That being said Toyota's are rarely the dreams of driving enthusiasts. Drive an HSD Highlander and that might change though.
Next year the new Camry will have it's 2.4L linked to the HSD and that should give you about 200+hp but Average 32-35 mpg in a FULL SIZED midsize vehicle. Prolly no Prius-toys tho
- Lexus' GS450 might be just what you are looking for later next year also. There's performance style and luxury.
- 2008 Tundra in Spring '07 5.? L w/ HSD - what a monster that will be.
- HSD Sienna like the new 'Yota van just intro'd in Tokyo.. built at the same factory as the HSD Tundra in Indiana?..hmmm
The choices are on the horizon.
kdhspyder