Any downside to buying a hybrid?

falconone · October 2005

No problem. However I could be writing a check for 15k if I bought your car. So yes... I'll have less money. Do I care? Nah..... You only live once. Might as well enjoy what you want (within your means mind you).

stevedebi · October 2005

"The back seat room in the Prius is MORE than an E class Mercedes. How's that for comfort??????"

And one inch less rear leg room than my CR-V, which can be had well equipped at 22K, and has 33 cu feet behind the seats. Not sure I see the point here.

But of course the Prius gets far better MPG. Each vehicle class has it's own defining characteristics.

For me, I need that larger rear cargo area, and use it all the time with 4 people in the car. So a Prius would not do for me. It is a "downside" for the Prius, though the HH or Escape Hybrid would suit my needs. But the other thing I don't need right now is a new car payment! When one compares hundred$ of dollar$ per month vs. a less fuel efficient car that is paid for, the "hybrid premium" becomes rather large.

falconone · October 2005

My point of comparison should be quite apparent. You can buy a Prius for half the price of an E class and the rear passengers have MORE room in the Prius. As to the CRV.. Absolutely hate the styling, but that's just me. Don't take any offense. The new Rav4 is worlds better than the CRV. I hope they have a hybrid version soon.

michael_mattox · October 2005

Killer:

You have no idea what you are talking about...the base Prius is about 21-22,000 ..Substract 7,500 and it is much less expensive then the base Excape.

Of course my example was a loaded up Prius...and you try to compare that to a base Ford Excape. What is your point?

ardarsh · October 2005

Hybrids are nice in that they give a lot of miles, but they probably end up costing more than a regular car that gives high MPG. When I was looking at the Accord Hybrid vs the 4cyl, I did some algebra (yes math is useful) on a graphing calculator and found out that gas prices would have to be quite high for the hybrid to be on top over 10 year period. This is for all you Prius fans (what an ugly car but nice interior features).

For over 10 years with an avg 12000 miles/year (guessing what most ppl drive):
Total cost = [car price] + ((120,000/[combined MPG]) x [Gas Price])
Plug in your graphing calculator:
1. Y=reg car price+((120000/combined MPG)*X)
2. Y=hybrid price+((120000/combined MPG)*X)

X stands for gas price and Y is total cost (if you haven't already figured it out). Where the two equations intersect, you get the gas price that would equal out the cost (at least the gas). The result for Accord 4 cyl vs hybrid scenario ended up being gas prices would have to be $10.38!!!! That is never going to happen anytime soon. However, comparision of the 6cyl and Hybrid shows $4.78. That's a little more reasonable price in the somewhat near future.

Plus the hybrid has potential issues regarding the battery pack in the long run. So the lesson is that a hybrid doesn't equal savings at least all the time. I guess if you drove like 30+K miles a year, there might be a use in a hybrid, but for most people, it's not worth it. Just buy a 4cyl and you should be set for the decade.

snakeweasel · October 2005

Killer

Please actually read a post before replying to it, I never compared a Prius (fully loaded or not) to an Escape. FWIW I never made comparisons between any two vehicles in the original post or any follow-up post. The $7,500 figure comes from comparing the same vehicle, not two different vehicles.

Please don't put words I never said in my mouth.

snakeweasel · October 2005

I would love to run these figures (I do it for a living and find it somewhat enjoyable). Could you provide figures (i.e. price of vehicles, gas mileage and such)? Also did you take into consideration the time value of money?

katzjamr · October 2005

ardarsh: i do not see any allowance in your calculatoins for the $2000 to 3000.00 tax credit for a hybrid in 06

snakeweasel · October 2005

Actually the tax credit is between $400 and $3,400 depending on the vehicle and that isn't set in stone yet. So while there will be a credit it is not sure what it will be.

That being said in many cases people are paying above sticker price for hybrids and most people pay under sticker for non-hybrids causes the tax credit in many cases to be eliminated.

misterme · October 2005

I bought my '04 back in Jan'04 for about $18,500.
A comparably equipped EX (The best comparison to an HCH) cost about $17,300.
My algebra shows the difference of $1,200.
My tax credit came to $2,000.

The regular Civic gets mid-high 30's MPG if driven carefully but if I'd have bought one instead then I'd have likely seen low 20's MPG given my old aggressive style.
I'm currently doing low 60's MPG in my HCH, but had mid-upper 60's all summer..
Grand Caravan went from 16-17 to 21-26MPG as a direct result of owning our hybrid. (Learning how to drive correctly)

Time to get your graphing calculator out again.

kdhspyder · October 2005

As a former math/physics/ then acctng major I applaud your very elegant and simple presentation. It does accurately formulate the variables.. excluding the one time tax credit next year. That is a Major variable in the short term. Another benefit to this presentation is that it allows you to compare several vehicles at the same time graphing them all. Cool..

This can be both plotted and put in a spreadsheet format.

Suggestion: name all the variables.
-The prices of the cars can change due to revisions ( Prius in '06 ) or market conditions: y1, y2, etc and yH.. Todays prices arent next June's prices for example

-The Tax Credit ( Cr ) may be a temporary variable only in '06. Who can tell

-The 120000 10 yr mileage figure is an average but it should be a variable also. For example, at what total milage will the graphs intersect? It also allows for other milages in 10 yrs. I will drive just under 500000 miles in 10 yrs. YMMV LOL
Eg: No of yrs is ' t ' and Ann Miles is ' L '. In your example t=10 and L=12000

-mpg1, mpg2, etc and mpgH are separate variables for each vehicle compared.

-Price of gas ( G ). It's a variable but it's the same in both equations.

Now with all the variables one can do different simulations with two or more equations:

A) ICE vehicle1 TC1 = y1 + (( t*L)/mpg1)*G

ICE vehicle2 TC2 = y2 + ((t*L)/mpg2)*G

C) Hybrid vehicle TCH = ( yH-Cr ) + ((t*L)/mpgH)*G

thanks for a very interesting post.. LOL off to Excel now.

kdhspyder · October 2005

Actually it was an income adjustment resulting in a credit of ~ $600 in '04 but I have to agree with all your other points esp the one about increasing the Caravan values.. an unforeseen added benefit.

katzjamr · October 2005

the 06 tax credits for hybrid cars are already defined and can be found online. They are real and should be included in your analysis.

snakeweasel · October 2005

Can you provide a link at the IRS that shows what the tax credits are?

If it is not an official IRS pronouncement they are just estements and may not be correct. Yet they will still be good for comparisons.

1panky · October 2005

You may want to read the Neil Winton article in today's (10/27) The Detroit News under the Auto Insider section. There seems to be a number of important developments in diesel technology by the Ford Peugeot partnership that could leave the now unproven hybrid vehicles in the dust for the future. An interesting read and timely.

beantown · October 2005

In the Boston area, gas is now back down to around $2.30/gallon for regular. This I believe is essentially what the price was prior to the "oil crisis". It should be interesting to see if it keeps going down, and if it does, how this will affect hybrid and SUV sales....

falconone · October 2005

Hybrids were hard to come by before the Katrina crisis. People realize that the gas prices are volatile. If gas were $1.5 I'd still keep my order in for my Prius. I am glad to see prices are coming down.

falconone · October 2005

There have been many posts about this. RE: Prius any where from 2k to 3.2k.

zodiac2004 · October 2005

There seems to be a number of important developments in diesel technology by the Ford Peugeot partnership that could leave the now unproven hybrid vehicles in the dust for the future. An interesting read and timely.

That should be an easy task, since the diesels of today (available elsewhere) already leave the hybrids in the dust.

rroyce10 · October 2005

... **Prius only got 'in the tall 30's around town and that cold northern weather and AC in the Deep south killed the mileages is vaguely true .... **

You didn't print that with a straight face, did you ....? .

The name of this subject is: Any downside to buying a hybrid? ......

You're singing to the choir on this one ..l.o.l...

Terry.

falconone · October 2005

Which diesels are they? Maybe that is what you should buy for your wife. But you are correct as diesels will leave the hybrids in particulate dust and NOx.

zodiac2004 · October 2005

Accord 2.2 iCDTi, for one.
Why bring my wife into this. Run out of facts already.

falconone · October 2005

You had mentioned that the new car is for your wife. Don't you recall? Can't you get one of those in Canada?

zodiac2004 · October 2005

What new car?
You have me mistaken for someone else.

falconone · October 2005

Sorry... my bad. I was thinking of someone else from up north. Still getting a hybrid?

snakeweasel · October 2005

Don't really care what someone posts about it. I would wait until I see an official pronouncement from the IRS on this. I have seen to many people in trouble with the IRS because of what they read on the internet.

zodiac2004 · October 2005

Sorry... my bad. I was thinking of someone else from up north. Still getting a hybrid

Of course not. What makes you think that.

falconone · October 2005

I inferred that from your frequent participation and posts here.

falconone · October 2005

These posts come from reliable sources and not just conjecture from individuals. I am certain that I am going to get a nice tax break for buying my Prius.

TEN WEEKS BABY!!!

zodiac2004 · October 2005

I inferred that from your frequent participation and posts here.

I take it you don't actually read my posts....LOL

falconone · October 2005

I just happened to see that 90% of your posts were in the hybrid forum so I thought you were looking to get a nice green lean machine.

snakeweasel · October 2005

I am sure you will get a nice tax break. However until the IRS issues it opinion the sources, be them reliable or not, are still a source of conjecture. It may be less than they expect, or it could be more.

falconone · October 2005

I look at it with a bonus. I would still buy the car regardless of the credit. I am not sure how many people are actually even motivated to buy a hybrid because of the credit. It appears that sales have NOT stalled, so people may be unaware of the credit which starts in nine weeks.

kdhspyder · October 2005

I was paraphrasing your previous comment

BTW, how would you know from the auction lanes that the Prius' were getting as you say '.. in the tall 30's..' Were the drivers still sitting in the cars answering questions to the buyers???? Never saw that before, weird if they were.

You still havent shown me that you know even a little abt the Prius except what you hear and what it brings in the lanes. The specific questions I've posed to you have either been ignored or answered with offhanded non-sequiters.

'Fess up now, Terry. Your 7 stores are Used Car stores with nary a Toyota store amongst them so your acces to Prius knowledge is secondary at best except for what they bring in resale which is your area of expertise.

falconone · October 2005

Perhaps he's a little miffed that he can't get any used ones at a reasonable price.

stevedebi · October 2005

"As to the CRV.. Absolutely hate the styling, but that's just me. Don't take any offense. The new Rav4 is worlds better than the CRV. I hope they have a hybrid version soon."

No offense taken. Actually, it is rather funny you say that, because I feel the same way about the Prius styling. Eye of the beholder and all that, I suppose.

I don't agree with your opinion of the new RAV4. With the larger engine, it gets worse gas mileage. The advantage it used to have over the CR-V was size and smaller engine.

falconone · October 2005

I believe the new RAV4 has the option of the V6. I wouldn't be surprised if they convert that RAV to a hybrid within the next two years. That would really be sweet. The CRV is a wonderful reliable small SUV. I know the Liberty folks would disagree, but after owning one for 3 yrs, the CRV is much more refined. Is yours a 5sp or auto?

kdhspyder · October 2005

Its going to have the 3.5L Avalon engine @ 268 HP, which is wicked, making it more powerful than the V6 Highlander... But most RAV buyers are frugal so I really think it wont sell much. But in 2 yrs if they take the 2.4L HSD which will be in the Camry and add it to the RAV.. that'll grap the RAV buyers' attn... V6 power and 30+ mpg fuel ratings on a mid sized SUV.

falconone · October 2005

WOW... the 3.5 engine!!!! That thing will be wicked!! Thanks for the info!

miniok · October 2005

The American Council for Energy Efficient Economy is a very authoritative source. Their site has good information. ACEEE.ORG

snakeweasel · October 2005

OK, but I will wait to see what the IRS says. Their figures are the ones you have to use. So I will wait until then. Thanks

falconone · October 2005

It's not going to vary by much.

heyjewel · October 2005

Hey birdman, if it's a tax credit you want - buy a Navigator. Could practically buy a Prius too with the money saved.

rroyce10 · October 2005

..... Hmm, interesting ...

I thought I posted about gas mileage in hybrids, considering the topic is: "Any downside to buying a hybrid?" ... maybe I misread it.

To answer your question, there is 7 new car stores .. but thats not what this topic is about ..

This topic is about hybrids, not just about Toyota, not about me and certainly not about Kdhspyder ...... hybrids are good vehicles for the right people, some better than others, some work and some break, some get 45 mpg and some can even get 50 mpg with the right driver and with the right driving circumstances ....

Then again, some only get 35 mpg, like in Michigan in the cold winters and some in the southern states get even less, depending on if it's 95 degree's or 105 when the humidity has been 90%+ for the last 2 weeks ... but if you were a good car man, you'd know this. ....... how about if we do this, if anyone has any questions we can just call your employer and ask him .. he probably doesn't appreciate you using his computer on business time, especially since you need to be selling something to someone, cuz' you're just a salesman --- most folks here are pretty savvy, I'm sure they'll figure it out on their own.

If your employer had any faith and trust in you .. they would probably let you go to an auction here and there and let you see what is there for their inventory, but obviously they don't .... if they had any faith and trust in you, they would let you look at the auction reports and you could see how many hybrids (including Prius) that travel through, but obviously they don't .. .. see, you would know this if you had any experience, obviously you don't.

Terry.

kdhspyder · October 2005

Finally something more than an off handed comment.. Tks, Terry.

I work my own hours, thank you, since retiring from my job selling steel to the automakers and others. Now I mostly play poker and its no secret that I work for Toyota selling specifically the Prius. I've disclosed it many times. Today it's from home.

hybrids are good vehicles for the right people, some better than others, some work and some break, some get 45 mpg and some can even get 50 mpg with the right driver and with the right driving circumstances ....

Then again, some only get 35 mpg, like in Michigan in the cold winters and some in the southern states get even less, depending on if it's 95 degree's or 105 when the humidity has been 90%+ for the last 2 weeks .

Thats a more coherent explanation than your original off handed ' in the tall 30's..' but far from complete because even in the extremes you mention its the length of the trips more than the temps that effect the mileage. but you knew that I'm certain.

The Manheim online reports are available anytime I want to log on... but thanks for the suggestion.

snakeweasel · October 2005

Thats sort of a very strange response since they don't make a hybrid Navigator so the only way you can save on your taxes is to use it for work (and its not even a tax credit but rather a deduction). Plus the base price is more than twice what the base price of the Prius is.

So how can you save enough money to buy a prius?

falconone · October 2005

It could be that maybe if you forego buying the navigator the gas savings will enable you to buy a Prius. It's quite confusing.

gagrice · October 2005

I work for Toyota selling specifically the Prius

So that makes you even more biased than the average Toyota sales person. The two times I have gone to test drive the Prius II the salesmen tried to sell me a Camry. Once in Hawaii and once here in CA. Both laid out the same facts of how an entry level Camry would save me money over a Prius. Almost like it was a scripted sales pitch. I wonder if that is part of their training. I will try a third dealer in the next few weeks and see if the sales pitch has changed. Short supply may be the biggest downside to even thinking about buying a Prius. The other hybrids seem easy to find.

falconone · October 2005

I've been to many dealers and they never try to do bait and switch. Why on earth would you even waste a saleman's time if you have no intention of buying?

larsb · October 2005

quote gagrice-"The two times I have gone to test drive the Prius II the salesmen tried to sell me a Camry. Once in Hawaii and once here in CA. Both laid out the same facts of how an entry level Camry would save me money over a Prius. Almost like it was a scripted sales pitch. I wonder if that is part of their training. I will try a third dealer in the next few weeks and see if the sales pitch has changed."-end quote

Gary, that's easily explainable and not at all surprising. The salesperson makes a higher commission on the Camry sale. Nothing conspiratorial or shady about - it's called GREED.

Any downside to buying a hybrid?

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