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Comments
These dedicated discussions are not the right place for this extended debate.
Thanks.
Oh, man - you are saying this right when I wanted to point out that the TL did not make "best pick" and had triple the death rate per driven mile than the Passat in the latest statistics available (http://www.iihs.org/news/2005/iihs_sr_031505.pdf). Too bad I can't talk about this anymore.
I have had my 4Motion wagon for about 6 years now, and can recommend it without reservation. I have never regretted owning it, and it is a blast to drive. Of course, the new model is even better! :shades:
We can cite facts until our fingers wear out typing them. I'd wager it doesn't make much difference.
We're all, most of the time it would appear, looking to support a course of action or looking to validate an action already taken.
Even were we to argue, unfettered by our host, endlessly, I doubt many of us will change our minds.
For instance, I would argue that German cars are superior in almost every way. I would also agree that the reputation and apparently the facts support Japanese reliability. I continue to believe in the superiority of the German cars simply because reliability (beyond some minimal standard) doesn't even enter into my thought processes when purchasing (or leasing which is my way of buying/owning/driving.)
On the other hand, the best sound systems I have ever heard were in an Acura and an Infiniti (TL and M35X respectively.) The sound system would influence me, that is.
Now after some 54 years on planet earth, I also conclude that the Passat would be my preference, but that I would gladly adopt the Acura if the price difference was "significant" (also a subjective term.)
On the other hand, since a deal breaker for me is the availability of AWD, the Acura is no longer an option, unless it would be the RL.
It remains to be seen how the Passat will weather the test of time (2 - 3 years from now we'll have a much better indication, of course.) Right now, today, the Passat is a German car available with a 3.6L engine and AWD. Since I would at least consider it able to be tested against an Audi A4 and A6, a BMW 3 and 5 and a Mercedes C and E, it seems that it could be a "value leader."
But the VW, if history is any indication, will be lauded when price is NOT considered and proclaimed too expensive when compared to a Camry or an Accord (or perhaps the aforementioned TL.)
VW, with this new Passat, looks to have achieved at least part of its stated intentions: bringing to market a car that can 90 - 95% compete with the classic lux/premium Mercedes at 80 - 85% of the price.
Only the less than stellar reputation of the US VW dealer body seems to be standing in the way of some possible "great strides" for VW. Check out the new Automobile Magazine for some of the cool VW's that are in the wings.
You see, to me, the Acura TL is NOT a consideration against the Passat, but a Mercedes C (and maybe E) are.
Then, of course, we get to the reliability issues that have plagued Mercedes.
But, to return to the theme, based on sales numbers (dutifully posted by many avid participants here on Edmunds) the Germans seem to outsell the Japanese giving at least some credence to the notion that reliability (real or perceived) apparently is not a win or show factor in getting people to part with their money.
If the dealer rep can improve, I would predict VW (in the US at least) may be on the verge of what can only be called "a roll."
What remains to be seen is if this roll is up-hill or down-hill. :shades:
There are some people out there who like to drive their cars for more than 24/36 months or they buy them used. One may attempt to derive a breaking point (either in dollars spent on maintenance/repairs or number of times that your dream machine would not start again) after which a "boring" car from Japan may become way more compelling than an "Ultimate Driving Machine" or the one "Unlike any Other", or the one that would "Never Follow", or the one that "wants drivers". As much as superior in design they might be, when they do not operate the way they were intended (or worse they do not work at all), they become pieces of scrap metal until they get fixed. Without warranty, that bill may offset any enjoyment one might have had beforehand.
It would be an individual thing, much depending on personality rather than objective facts and statistics.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
I assume there are simultaneously reliable and entertaining cars; trouble is, it seems reliability can be measured but entertainment value is not exactly quantifiable. It is, apparently, possible that what one person thinks is entertaining may not be so to another. Reliability AND durability are probably not up to too much debate, but even with that attribute, there is probably common ground as well as individual ranges that some consider reliable and that others would consider marginal.
You are correct, I probably am not a good person to testify as to the durability of a car having had very few beyond 50,000 miles and the ones I did (all American) were awful ambassadors for their manufacturers.
However with over two dozen German cars as my basis, virtually all of them have been reliable. My 2003 allroad was AWOL for 11 days immediately after I got it (the culprit was the On*star system -- in all mechanical and electronic ways, otherwise, the car was solid [reliable.]
Some would consider this unacceptable. On the other hand, the driving experience was always very much acceptable.
Now, having said all this, I personally do NOT know that some -- fill in the blank -- make/model (Japanese or Swedish or American) would offer the driving experience I have enjoyed from the German autos I have known.
Some folks argue the facts about their favorites (guilty as charged) but often many of the facts are heavily influenced by their opinion (again guilty as charged.)
I guess there is a "pick on Passat" board ("problems, issues, remedies, etc.) Here, I assume, the focus is to heap [significant] praise or ask questions to seek support of buying or "reward" for having bought the subject vehicle.
Are cars from Japan boring (or more boring) than those from Germany (or elsewhere)? Objectively, I do not know. Even my subjective evaluation center has been shaken in the past year+. Currently, Infiniti seems to have cracked "some code" with respect to driving dynamics -- perhaps by association Nissan has too.
Can Acura (Honda) and Lexus (Toyota) be far behind(or are they already catching up?) My gut is that they are moving forward in this respect. No where have I read, from the amateurs and pros alike, that these marquis have equalled or surpassed the German makers (even though they are said to be "breathing down the Germans' necks.")
I am not here to dissuade anyone from buying their "fave."
I have a phrase I "live by" and that is, cars have become breathtakingly expensive to keep beyond their warranty periods if you are unlucky enough to have the one that breaks. I wouldn't dream of driving on the public roadways without insurance (even if it were legal), likewise I wouldn't have a house without damage and liability insurance.
The notion of a car without some insurance (warranty by another name?) is TO ME in the same universe of "wouldn't have it without it."
Perhaps reliability and durability statistics are persuasive arguments to drive uninsured (in that respect.)
Just not to me, no matter what the country of origin and manufacturer. I would therefore find the "Ultimate" or "Maximum" driving machine within my price range rather than be more than a little persuaded by historical reliability.
But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong. Just not uncertain. :shades:
The biggest draw to VW for me has always been ergonomics. Not even interior esthetics (although they are nice), but those little things that show that somebody really thought about it. You can see that Passat is a car that a top level executive would not be ashamed (or afraid) to give to his wife or grown son. Similarly Jetta is the case for teen/college son/daughter. Moreover, they give impression that they were actually driven by somebody who made the key production decision for longer than around the block. To be fair, similar impressions are given for most imports and it is totally opposite to most domestic cars, which basically scream "I am driven by a limo, my wife is driven by a limo, my daughter has a Cadillac CTS (that I actually had to force on her because she wanted a Beetle), so I don't care about you, little man, buying our Chevy - I won't drive it anyway, so have your cheap console and cash back".
My only concern is - there is something broken in the system, if large-sample data show the gap. It is undisputable, regardless of ones particular experience. Is it labor (whether overpaid and overunionized in Germany or underpaid and underqualified in Mexico), is it suppliers - who knows. Fact is a fact. Individual experiences one way or another are relevant only to oneself's (and the people they could influence) sense of confidence in the brand. Every year those on the bottom "call the rain" and promise substantial gains in quality. So far, it was not happening. It takes time, of course, but it takes even more time to convince the public it happened, especially when previous promises appear to be broken.
My last concern is the price. It is not enough to put stuff in and then slap quite shocking sticker. As much as nice it can be, $40K for a Passat seems nuts. $30K+ is a stretch, but bearable if with V6 and/or AWD. But now it gives one just 2.0T, leather and some redundant goodies! I'm afraid, Phaeton did not teach them anything...
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Legacy GT is 2.5T.
Neither Phaeton nor Passat W8 tought VW lesson about pricing. Dollar to Euro exchange rate does not help either.
Krzys
I know, there will be screams about that they are too different to be considered competitive. However, it can be very surprising what kind of vehicles people look at before buying particular one. Very often logic is "I gen more hp, but less stuff, better nameplate, but worse reliabity, again more power but FWD" etc.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
We looked at an 06 passat 3.6L over the weekend and I must say I was quite impressed.....we like the looks, and the luxury feel inside....this one had the Lux Package#1 on it...and it drove really nice.....our only problem is the reliability and the customer service from the dealers. We have read some pretty negative things about the customer service.....and some ho hum things about the number of problems occurring on the VW.....I guess the one thing going fot it is it's warranty period.....but to us a warranty is only as good as the dealer willing to implement it when trouble does occur.....although the Passat is all new this year.....we would like to hear some input from anyone who has owned one either current or previous.....we have never owned a VW of any type before....so we are feeling very cautious....
Thanks in advance for any input....
Good Luck!
Jeff
They asked me to bring it in for a test drive, which I did. The service department agreed that the computer module needed replacement. They ordered a replacement, gave me a call when it came in. I then scheduled an appointment and had the module replaced. No run around, just up front. Due to this kind of service, I bought a new 3.6 Passat.
Thanks
Krzys
Does anybody have the same experience?
Thanks!!
All turbos have this to some degree.
Long timers (and probably even newcomers) to shifting probably run the car's transmissions from gear to gear and "pick" shift points by ear or by feel or by "what I think may happen next" mode. During deacceleration and during twisty road driving, too, downshifts "in anticipation" are quite common -- sometimes just based on visual cues or "been there done that" cues.
My wife, at 65MPH on the freeway surrounding Cincinnati will, when approaching heavy but still rapidly moving traffic, downshift her manual transmission from 6th to 5th (in a BMW X3 3.0 which at 2,000 RPM has decent power.)
When she downshifts, she will get an immediate rise in RPM's which increases the responsiveness of the car to her right foot.
In a tiptronic, at 65MPH the transmission has long long since been in 6th gear. Pressing down "a little bit" on the accelerator will barely cause anything to happen, a little further and the transmission (somewhat reluctantly it always seems, almost as if to say "are you sure?") downshifts to 5th, etc.
When coming to a full stop or more likely an ALMOST full stop the transmission in a tip will remain in second gear until you'd think the engine would darn near stall before the shift to first actually occurs.
The tip seems hell-bent to be in the gear that will maximize fuel economy and minimize accelerative urge. Many of us compensate by pressing deeper and deeper, praying for weapons grade torque to come to the rescue.
Even the 3.6L does not have weapons grade torque.
In an attempt to respond, the tip will downshift, perhaps 2 gears (if there ARE 2 lower gears) and since the accelerator pedal is depressed pretty far, well -- even the 2.0T will "awaken" and some commotion and a lunge will happen as the engine reaches full cry.
This happens with 2.0TFSI's, 3.2FSI's, 3.6FSI's 4.2's and I'd assume W12's. The trouble is NOT in you and NOT in your set. It (the tip) is jus' doin' what comes naturally.
Current 6spd tips offer "D" and "S" mode in addition to manu-matic mode (which I think, personally, is pretty lame-o.) In "D" mode the P.U.'s and D.D.'s are common. In "S" mode, upshifts come at higher RPM's -- as do downshifts.
The car feels "peppier" since it is usually several hundred RPM higher in "S" mode at any one time than if the selector had been left in "D."
I am now well above 50% "S" mode in my 3.2FSI 6spd Tip Audi (VW's first cousin if not fraternal twin.)
The car is much more responsive -- tip lag while not 100% gone is no longer something I have to account for and plan for.
If you have one of these fine new Passats or are thinking about one, please note the opinion from an earlier post where the person proclaims the Passat a "bargain."
Most don't agree with that -- I am, apparently, one of the minority who thinks that a Passat is the gun in a knife fight with the Camry and/or Accord.
The VW Passat 3.6L w/4Motion (speaking for myself) and with the high zoot sport package should be compared with a BMW 325xi or 330xi, Audi A4 quattro 2.0T and 3.2 and the C Class 4Matic Mercedes. Moreover, a price comparison with the Volvo S40 AWD with its highest fittment of engine and suspension, too, would seem to be a "fair fight."
Now, I actually like, very much, the Acura TL -- but its darn near massive torque steer, coupled with its "only" coming in FWD makes it a "not inappropriate" competitor if AWD performance is not required.
The tiptronic, sadly, is all there is -- the Audi and the BMW do offer the stick. Mercedes ONLY comes in automatic, too (and its manumatic transmission is or soon will be a 7 gang, but I'd wager will also have the same P.U. and D.D. traits as the VW version.)
:shades:
First, what octane rated gasoline are you using? The salesperson suggested I put plus gasoline (89) in the tank most of the time and premium (91 or 93) every once in a while. This seems to be working.
Second, I got the standard 16" wheels/tires. What is the benefit of going to larger 17" tires? Would I need new wheels?
This is a great car. Huge fun.
alison1, "Volkswagen Passat 2006+" #710, 1 Sep 2005 10:30 am
alison1, "Volkswagen Passat 2006+" #713, 1 Sep 2005 10:58 am
shipo, "Volkswagen Passat 2006+" #714, 1 Sep 2005 12:29 pm
Long story short, the Passat 2.0T is a blown engine with a high mechanical compression ratio. Individually, both of those attributes indicate the requirement for Premium fuel, combine them into a single engine and it DEMANDS Premium fuel.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Overall, I like the Tiptronic. I got a lot of good use out of it on our recent vacation while driving in the mountains. Using the manual mode kept the car from constantly "hunting" the right gear while going up and down and round and round.
The biggest problem I have with the Tiptronic is that you only have the option to go up or down one gear at a time and the whole thing seems backward. You push forward to upshift and pull back to downshift. To me it's a bit awkward if you're wanting to go from say 6th gear down to 4th. I believe some other cars with similar transmissions actually allow you to shift more like a real manual. If I had that ability I would probably shift myself much more often.
Another feature about the Tiptronic is it will not allow the driver to shift into too low a gear and get the revs too high on the engine. I suppose for most drivers that is a good thing.
BTW Mark, I totally agree with your comment about the Passat being the gun in the knife fight with Camcord.
I had a Passat (W8) with the (then 5 speed) Tiptronic. And all my most recent 4 sedans have had manumatic transmissions.
I really don’t understand the one gear at a time ‘limitation’ being a problem. It does not seem to be an issue for F1 race car drivers or drivers of every motorcycle (race or street) that I know of. And it is not a problem for me.
And my current and most recent certainly allowed a ‘double tap’ either up OR down – resulting in 2 shifts – occurring as rapidly as the trans. internal pressure adjustments and mechanical ‘shifts’ can be accomplished.
Is skipping a gear really such a problem? Why?
Thanks,
- Ray
Not getting’ it here . . .
Since I have nevered owned a VW before.....just a litle hestitate.....but the 06 Passat is a fine looking vehicle...
thanks again
Just yesterday I was telling my wife that she could take 2nd gear to 5000rpm and then shift into 4th.
Due to a number of circumstances we had to switch vehicles. She normally doesn’t drive manual since she has bad knees (and wrists) so I told her she could skip a shift if she needed to.
If you’re stuck on the highway behind somebody in 6th gear and want to pass in 4th I guess you could down shift right to 4th when passing.
But yes I agree with you, usually going through the gears sequentially makes more sense.
Best Regards,
Shipo
I just don’t see tapping (forward or back, in this case) twice rapidly in succession to drop 2 gears or (per your acceleration example) to upshift twice as a problem.
I do much the same as you describe, just let off the gas and hit the (in my current case) paddles twice. My experience has been that you can hit the control twice (or thrice) in very rapid succession. The requests “stack” – and are dealt with in due course. The 2 (or even 3) shifts occur without further attention from me. And quite rapidly.
And my clutch leg \ knee tendonitis and toe bursitis is not aggravated.
Anyway . . Works for me.
Cheers,
- Ray
Not quite clear on the “bun-hugging” reference . .
Geez, I guess I'm dating myself. That was a fairly common way to indicate that one was moving fast back in the mid 1970s, I'm thinking it was from a Fireside Theater comedy bit.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Use Premium. There is no other option, it costs more to use lower grade fuel. Why spend more to get less?
If you have 16" wheels and you buy 17" tires, you must also acquire new wheels.
The wheels and tires you get must be what are called "plus size." You can, typically, replace tires with identical sized tires (OEM identical); you may widen the foot print and lower the profile on the same oem wheel, this is called Plus Zero sizing.
Plus one and Plus two sizing mean: one inch or two inches larger wheel size(s) and of course an accompanying increase in tire diameter and width and a decrease in aspect ratio must go along with plus sizing.
For example: IF the car came with 225 x 55 x 17 tires (on 17" wheels) it is probably quite possible to increase the tread width from 225 to 245 and decrease the aspect ratio from 55% to 50% all on the OEM 17" wheel.
If a size increase in the wheel is desirable for whatever reason (performance and/or appearance), the plus sizing would require the following: 245 width, 45 aspect ratio and 18" wheel/tire diam.
The result of plus sizing (+1 for instance) can be better turn in and crisper handling (often is.) Another possible consequence is that "unsprung" weight may increase and depending on several factors this may not be a good thing at all.
Generally speaking, +1 sizing is thought to improve both appearance and performance.
Generally speaking.
It is possible, for instance, to improve the sidewall stiffness, tread pattern and width, of the tire, lose wheel weight and enjoy better performance all the way around AND get an appearance boost too.
It is also possible to pick the wrong wheel and tire and make the car overall worse. It is NOT rocket surgery, but you should figure out what attributes (and looks) are most important to you.
Summer only?
A/S?
Speed rating?
Treadwear stats?
Road noise?
Winter driving?
Extreme cold stamina?
Who moved my pants?
The car is a bargain.
What I don't like is having to "bump it" twice. It just doesn't feel natural.
The car doesn't run right and feels differently when I use Premium only gas. I've never put just regular gas in the car.
What type of gas do most of you people use? And what's been your experiences with using a certain type of gas?
I wouldn’t think it would feel different using a higher octane than is required other than the feeling in your wallet.
My bet is that your sales person might have a year or two of community college somewhere, while the folks who designed your engine probably teach very advanced engine dynamics to graduate students.
Hmmm, a college drop out or a Professor with a Doctorate?
Me? I think I'll believe the guy who designed it and as such, I'll take the advice that is printed in the manual. Said another way, Use the highest quality fuel you can buy in your area. Period, full stop, then end!
Best Regards,
Shipo
The requirement for premium should be noted in your manual. I have no clue why the salesperson would suggest you run the car at suboptimal power with the added benefit of lower power and overall higher fuel costs.
It sure sounds as if the sales training of this individual has not been completed.
The engine management computer in your VW will effectively retard the spark when lower octane fuel is detected (it seems to do other technical tricks, too, but this is the essence of what it does.)
The 2.0T AND the 3.6L both require premium.
Perhaps asking the service manager will help -- but the manual would be my first choice of info.
No wait, edmunds folks might be your first choice. :surprise:
I have used mostly 89 octane in the 98 with no problems, it runs flawlessly with 110k miles. The only disadvantage is a very slight reduction in power. This is only really noticeable in hot weather with the AC running. So, because I am a cheap skate, I only use 93 octane in the summer and 89 otherwise. If you want maximum power, then use 91 or higher octane.
FSI with turbo is like doubling the cause (both high compression and turbo engines require premium on their own, so combines - you get the tune).
There was a merchant in XVII century Poland - his name was Zablocki. He wanted to save on tarriffs and decided to float soap down the river in a submerged vessel. Well, the vessel was not exactly waterproof... Isn't this "saving on gas" a little bit like that? Just think about it - you both (possibly) $30+ machine and now you want to save money on gas??? If so, should have gottten Impala. :confuse: :sick:
2018 430i Gran Coupe
It's not the cost of gas that's my concern. I used to drive a SUV and I only used the cheapest gas I could find. With the Passat, I have used premium gas. I think alot of my confusion is coming from when you open the gas cap it says use at least 91 octane or 95 octane. There is only 87, 89 & 93 octane gas available.
But I will fill up with premium gas from now on. My salesperson owns a Toureg so he wouldn't know anything about a Passat.
Thanks!
With all due respect to the 3,000 miles you already have on your 2006 Passat and the testing methods you've used to come to the conclusion that the grade of fuel doesn't matter, the laws of physics say otherwise. The simple truth is that a blown engine with a 10.3:1 compression NEEDS premium fuel both for peak performance AND peak fuel economy.
Best Regards,
Shipo
The dealer service manager who has a bunch of certificates on his wall and has a bunch more folks with even more certificates says "if premium is not available you can use lower grade fuel, but not on a routine and regular basis -- it is a false economy."
Folks have posted the reasons why premium has, over the years, started to cost less and less and indeed really is a false economy.
If regular is $2.25, premium will be $2.45. Milage and power will improve and the maximum mileage interval can be used between service requirements.
The sentence "you can use 89 and save a little money," should read "when you use 93 you will improve performance and efficiency and save a little money."
If the folks who have explained this will not mind reposting, we need to stop distributing information that is NOT dangerous but also info that leads you down a false sense of savings route.
The true "cheap skate" uses premium -- unless all these folks have been brainwashed or are getting kickbacks. I can't believe VW would require Premium for any other reason that to optimize performance and efficiency (and probably reliabiity.)
The slight reduction in power is generally offset with driver or engine management inputs that effectively recognize the lower power of regular and use increased fuel in order to counter act the lower "energy."
Cheapskates don't use regular in cars that are engineered for Premium unless they want to use MORE fuel to achieve lower power.
I hope the folks knowing the technical explanation will participate.
Is the sky going to fall, when put lower grade in? Of course not, thus if you're stuck on the highway and the AAA guy has only regular, it's not a problem - things will not get ruined over half-hour use of regular.
Now, only a qualified engineer can answer whether long-term use of substandard fuel will affect durability or not. My suspicion is not much, but why oh why one would want to put substandard fuel to get substandard performance and fuel economy with no real savings (or perhaps even actually higher final cost)?
Those false economies are all over the place - people always concentrate on one number, completely disregarding surrounding facts. See them all the time: "my rent was XXXX, my mortgage payment is YYYY" (how about taxes, insurance and financing fees?), or "loan payment is $500, lease is $400 - lease is cheaper!" (what will you do after 3 years of lease are over?), "diesel makes 35 mpg, gasoline 30 mpg - diesel is cheaper!" (what about higher prices of diesel fuel and diesel engine cars?), etc.
I guess it is hard to handle calculation with more than one terms. Perhaps expanding mandatory math curriculum in high school would help a little, who knows?
2018 430i Gran Coupe