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Comments
The reason I cancelled my deal at Honda was strickly PAX tires. It amazes me that so many people get all this wrong regarding these tires. My livihood is Engineering and technology. I have no problem with the technology. I actually thing "flat-runs" are a good thing. But not the greatest thing! I have BIG problems with the practical and business side of this issue.
First, you can NOT readily switch PAX tires off Ody Touring, no matter what you say! The rims or should I say "TWHEEL" is 18.1 inches a non standard size. There is NO donut available, no room to carry a future donut or any spare tire. Honda "wasted" the space where the donut would have been stored with a stupid placed useless "plastic" pocket! (EWL has a donut here).
The TPMS will not allow you to simply change to ANY other tire/wheel without NON-HONDA "yet to be proved" methods voiding your warranty! Smaller wheels will most definately screw up your mileage, speedometer readings. JUST READ THE USER MANUAL. ASK THE HONDA SERVICE MANAGER. I DID. YOU ARE BASICALLY STUCK WITH PAX TIRES!
Only Honda and Michelin have PAX and WILL "control" your price and availability for these "TWHEELS". That known, you will pay premium for replacement. I could care less how long they last. "CONTROL" is the real important word here, not "distinguish"!
Now for the important part. The Ody Touring is called "TOURING" it has high end GPS NAV, RES DVD, and all the things people want when they TRAVEL. This is NOT only a vehicle to go back and forth to work or shop in the neighborhood.
Availability of something as simple as TIRES on a road trip is paramount to any thinking driver. Not having ANY PAX tires in Canada at all, or in most remote places is ridiculous. HELL, my New Jersey dealer has NONE in stock and it is a large dealer!
I do not care what Honda and Michelin does to "ship" a tire to me when I am STUCK in front of a tire repair shop with NO replacement! AAA can NOT help and neither can 99.999% of the tire repair centers. Waiting for a replacement M-F 9-5, from only one source is stupid! Especially when you are on a weekend away.
Who cares that Rolls Royce uses them, as RR owners are NOT travelling to National Parks using a NAV with KIDS in the back playing Playstation! How can you EVEN think to compare RR to HONDA? Or Panther? Give us a break, the space shuttle has great technology also, should I buy into that for family van?
Watch how fast Honda drops PAX as a standard item! Then you will have THAT ONE, that people will avoid!
I want to thank the Edmunds forum for "informing me" when Honda dealer, salesman, Honda web site, Honda brochure, Honda news releases, and even Road and Track did NOT tell me the whole story.
If PAX was so great, why does Honda hide the facts from its customers? Why is PAX NOT on every car they sell? Why is it NOT on all cars? At least Toyota run flats can be swapped easily and the Toyota dealer TOLD me the AWD had NO spare! I opted for FWD. I would NOT be surprised if Honda has a class action law suite against them one day on this and has to make good on all those PAX tires on Touring ODYs.
By the way, the rear seats in the Honda. The mechanism for folding them is cheap, the plastic lever broke right off in my girlfriends hand at the dealers. We then noticed the one on the other side was already broken! NOT made all that well, I am surprised at Honda, as they make a great vehicle otherwise. Just one other thing to check, when looking at the Honda Ody. Bet that will change also in 2006.
I am very happy with my choice, 2005 Toyota Sienna XLE Limited is a great minivan! Enough with the performance issues/Gas mileage as the Honda Ody and Toyota Sienna are so close anyway. These are minivans, NOT Corvettes! Having a easy replace tire is a bit more important, NO?
Stephen A
(Detroit Free Press)
Steve, Host
I hope Honda monitors these forums. I think your views are WAY extreme but it's entirely possible amny others feel the same way.
As far as the seat levers breaking. I have never seen this. The third row seats must have been raised and lowered THOUSANDS of times by abusive people at our recent Auto Show and after a week of that, they weren't broken.
I guess time will tell...
Oh yeah, I got a spare 50 miles down the road at the one gas station in Churchill Falls - and it was sort of close to the size I needed, lol.
Steve, Host
Maybe I'm just lucky?
On the other hand, all I can think of is "TRX". That was supposed to be the "next big thing" in tire technology, too, but all it did was ensure strong demand for aftermarket wheels. Unless I really thought PAX was going to be on EVERY car in 10 years, I'd stick with regular radials. Isell, you yourself said that you rarely if ever get flats. Doesn't PAX seem like a super expensive and complex solution to a fairly simple problem? This isn't like the bias-ply to radial changeover, where one technology offered vastly superior performance with no real cost or other drawbacks.
One final thought. When I was a kid, our transmission crapped out on I-10 just on the AZ side of the AZ-CA border. We spent the next week of our vacation in Blythe, CA instead of Disneyland. Imagine spending a week of vacation in Blythe just so you can get a spare tire shipped in to the local tire shop - assuming they even have the necessary mounting tools! I think there are going to be some super unhappy Odyssey Touring customers when something like this happens.
-Jason
I have bought 5 new Hondas since 1984, the last a 2004 Pilot. Will a Odyssey Touring join the family? Much as I like various features on the vehicle, it will not so long as it is equipped with PAX.
Perhaps I could live with the system if it only had one drawback but...
1) As he said, if we have a flat on a vacation weekend, we'll be seeing a deal of somewhere we hadn't planned on.
2) If I don't like the performance (or wear or whatever) of PAX tires, tough, I'm stuck with no alternative short of changing wheels and tires.
3) That long planned vacation through Western Canada? Nope, can't do that with a PAX equipped vehicle.
Three strikes and Honda's PAX system is "out" with me.
For understanding my points and passion. I agree with your explaination of the drawerbacks of PAX. As much as I like the PAX technology and the Ody, I feel it is too limiting and controlled too closely by Honda/Michelin. And leaves the consumer stuck in many ways.
My passion is very much based on the dealer and Honda NOT explaining the issues and limitations to consumers. NOT even the Road and Track story explained them adequately. There are others on these forums that found out ONLY after the purchase. This almost happened to me.
gkkim, The Sienna Run flats you are referring to ONLY come standard on the AWD that has NO room for a spare. The Touring has room, but Honda wasted it. The Toyota RFT can be swapped at any time with a standard tire, even in an emergency when stuck somewhere without a RFT. Toyota dealer and literature explained their RFT adequately. Honda hid the facts! I bought the 2005 Toyota Sienna XLE Limited FWD without RFT, I had choice.
isellhondas, I was simply stating what I experienced with the back seats in the Ody at my dealer. Glad you have had great luck. No abuse was put on the Ody I test drove and the lever, JUST broke very easily. Maybe you might want to investagate that the lever in question is made of a thin plastic, making this no so hard to see how it broke. The Sienna simply had a better folding system, void of plastic handles.
As far as the people how thinking I never get flats. Well great for you. But all it will take is one on a weekend or in a remote place. Not to even speak of tire replacements when Honda / Michelin, who some say want to differentiate, will do so by allowing you to pay whatever they want.
PAX allows no snow tires or donut spares so why has Honda made these tires a requirement of the Touring instead of an option? The Touring model in Canada has normal tires. Guess why? They could have differentiate, by offering PAX as an option. And when sales are figured out. I bet they will.
steve, my 2005 Toyota Sienna XLE Limited has tire pressure sensors and has regular normal tires, not RFT. This is easily accomplished to comply with new laws without RFT. PAX has been around since 1998, and after seven years they are still not wide spread. Maybe, I will wait until Goodyear, Pirelli, Toyo and Sumitomo are all selling PAX that fit the Ody Touring and there are actual tire places that repair them before I will buy PAX. Knowing that it is coming does NOT help me when I am stuck somewhere. I do agree RFT technology will be widespread on day, BUT it is to be seen if the PAX technology licensed from just one company is the answer to this.
My posts were not meant to bash Honda or PAX as I almost bought the Honda Touring. It was meant to clear up some peoples misconceptions and help them make an informed choice. I almost made a choice I would have regreted after spending 40K. Seems Honda is NOT telling the entire deal here. Most buyers are either unware or mis-informed. How can you make a clear choice without the facts?
Stephen A
As far as getting stranded in a remote location, I guess the same could apply to people who buy unusual cars that don't have dealers in very many places. I can think of quite a few and I really see little difference between getting stuck somewhere with a PAX flat or a blown water pump on a Saab.
Looks like Honda should have just included a can of "flat" fix and stayed with old technology.
Yes, I know that if any car has problems and you can't use your cell phone you are in big trouble, but why add to the problem of driving with these tires?
Maybe, Honda's little robot that jogs can bring you your replacement PAX tire!!! I wondered why Honda was working so hard on this little guy!
Like I mentioned before, a can of "flat" fix for $3.99 and regular tires would be a better system than what Honda decided to do with these PAX tires.
The positives will be noticed as you drive your Honda, you will enjoy them. The negatives like PAX tires will bite you in the [non-permissible content removed] and you will be out 40 GRAND!!!
Honda slipped up of this tire combination, admit it.
If your Saab decides to lose a fuel pump in the middle of nowhere, it can't be driven at all!
Yeah, I see negatives and I'll point them out to my customers and let them weigh the pros vs. the cons fot themselves.
Not everyone sees the glass as half empty the way you do.
And, only time will tell if Honda has, in fact, "slipped up". If this proves to be the case, I will, indeed, admit it.
-Jason
Sorry, I don't think that people here are going to fall for what you are saying when it comes to what negatives you tell your customers. Can anybody here remember a car salesman pointing out the negatives of their product? They will trash the other makes for sure.
The middle of nowhere? If that happens to be at a top of a mountain, then the Saab with the broken water pump can at least be rolled down hill, how about the Ody with a bad set of tires?
Don't get so up tight. I would be very happy if someone points out the negatives, who wants to find out after you spend 40 GRAND!!!!
Your logic is funny!!! Not worth 40 GRAND, but funny.
I will never know if my old vans self sealing feature was ever used, or maybe I just had luck for 3 years, but fact remains fact. 3 years and never had any trouble, and now in my second week I do had a flat tire.
I still can't understand why self-sealing tires aren't more wide-spread. As I mentioned above, it has many pros over run-flat and PAX tires, that it seals itself and you can travel with the same tire until the end of the tires life, you don't get limits of 100 or 150 miles, no trip to the dealer, no time waiting for delivery, no cost to replace it. The only negative is that a bigger puncture will not be sealed.
I still contend that you can get just as stuck, stranded somewhere in an oddball car. that doesn't seem to be a negative to you I guess?
I understand your logic, roll the dice, you have 125 miles and don't worry about these tires. For those people that are forward thinkers, they are very wise to look before they leap. What's wrong with being concerned with what might happen if you are more than 125 miles away from a dealer and your tire is history?
Today it is 16 degrees outside and going down to zero with windchills somewhere around the insane area. Traveling with a Ody with PAX tires and 125 or more away from a dealer could be very dangerous to have to wait for them to deliver your tire. I'll take a spare tire system anytime and not have to depend on Honda.
Most people might not have any problems with Honda getting them a replacement tire, just be sure you are within the 125 mile range or pack a lunch and blankets to make owning a Ody enjoyable.
No sir, not for 40 GRAND!!!!
I think you should stayed on topic with PAX before dragging SAAB into this. For what it's worth, there are more than a dozen SAAB dealers in MA alone, and dozens if not hundreds of independent shops that can fix SAABs. How many PAX dealers are in MA? Even when venturing outside MA, most of today's SAABs have critical parts interchangeable with other GM models, aside from engines at this point. I doubt you stock brand new engines for every Honda model at your dealership waiting for drop-in's and let customers on their merry way in half an hour after they get towed in with blown engines. By far the most common mode of sudden catastrophic engine failure mode is broken timing belt. Honda engines have interference design so when the timing belt goes, the engine valves are toast. Most SAAB models have timing chains that do not break at all.
Like I said before, I give up. If a person is that fearful of getting stranded with PAX tires, they really shouldn't buy them. They should also, for the same reason, buy a popular mainstream car.
Actually that's the kind of weather I'd want run flats for; pretty miserable conditions to be putting a spare on - I've never heard of AAA getting to your disabled car in less than an hour either.
Steve, Host
The 125 mile range in not that helpful really, if there are NO dealers to get a replacement on a weekend, at night, in a remote place, or HEY, even here where I live, NEXT to NYC! The "fix it later" idea is only good so you can off a highway or out of bad weather and go directly to a replacement. If a tire gets shredded forget it.
Other RFT or self sealing tires would be just as helpful as PAX, but do not leave you stuck with no alternatives. No reason for PAX to use odd sizes, or for Honda not to offer a solution for using non-PAX. There ONLY reason is to control the tire on your van...
Maybe we might want to remember that even if you do not ever get a flat, you need replacement and these will cost double or triple the price. And let's please remember there are NO Michelin or Honda dealers that actually fix PAX. They merely swap one, IF they have ONE!
For the record, I did speak to the so-called PAX tire expert at Michelin that is available from their toll free number. He said if I needed them, they would get a tire to me. I asked how if I was in Canada. He said they would tow me to the nearest PAX dealer. I remined him there were NO PAX dealers in Canada (remember he is the expert). He replied," oh really? Well in that case I GUESS we would tow your car to a repair shop and fly a tire in. We could, I GUESS put you up in a hotel until we could get you going again." All this for a flat? I think not!
Please check with Michelin yourself. Few states have many Michelin PAX shops. Some listed on their web site, actually DO NOT have them in stock, I CALLED!
I think you might have a better experience with a SAAB! Also think a tire is a pretty basic thing and on almost all vehicles you can get a replacement anywhere!
Forget donuts and snow tires! Sorry Honda and Michelin feel YOU do NOT need them, I guess.
I still thank this forum to ALLOW me to make an informed choice and cancel my order and buy a 2005 Toyota Sienna XLE Limited.
Stephen A
If the tires weren't wearing evenly, and I replaced them in pairs (you are supposed to do that right?) - sounds like a costly proposition to me. And if I were lucky enough they were wearing evenly and I needed to replace all 4, now what's the cost of that? And how many times should I plan to do that for a van I plan to own for (hopefully) 180K or 200K miles...three, four, five times? Let's see assuming the tires were $200 per tire installed, that's $800 a set of 4, and say I replace them 5 times, that's $4000 in tires alone.
If I hit debris in the highway like a ladder (no joke if you drive the perimeter in Atlanta GA), what does that do to the tire - does it compromise it's internals? How would I know for sure? Can you drive on it? And if I hit something that compromises the sidewall so I obviously can't drive on it - I'm forced to get a tow right?
If I'm parked and I note the wheel is deformed slightly, do I assume it's OK to drive on it? If I do, does that potentially reduce the chances of it being repaired? Can I repair it? Do I have to take it to a shop that has RFTs or can any shop make that determination?
Would I want to have to shove a 5th full-size tire or even a donut behind the third row? Why would I want to stick one on the roof?
What do I do if I'm not jazzed with the performance of the tire in the rain (substitue the snow or say road noise on dry pavement)? What are my alternatives?
Conventional tires for me thanks.
Only time will tell if PAX is a good system or not. Given Honda's and Michelin's track records and the quality of their engineering, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise. Besides, there is no other run-flat system out there that is as good. Cheer up--the world isn't all that bad! It really is a good place.
Conventional RFTs just aren't that much of a handicap. Even the C6 Corvette uses them, and not many people are complaining about the handling of it. The "tweel" mentioned in the article has some obvious appeal if they can get it to work.
Well, it's a tire/wheel assembly we're talking about, so I'm not sure why we would examine HONDA'S track record. So let's just look at MICHELIN'S track record when it comes to introducing new tire technology in a non-standard size.
Michelin has introduced AT LEAST one other 'bleeding edge' tire which was supposed to revolutionize the industry which required a specialized rim. This was the TRX tire. Like PAX, the TRX tire promised many benefits over standard tire technology. Like PAX, the TRX tire required special TRX rims. These rims would NOT accept any standard tires due to their odd size, just like PAX. Unlike PAX however, TRX was initially offered on more models (several BMW's and high performance Mustangs) so there was a much hgher number of cars on the road initially using TRX.
So, if you wish to look at track records, Michelin surely has one. But unless you can point to ONE instance in which Michelin sucessfully introduced a proprietary tire/wheel combo, I would say their track record is not so hot.
I guess someone may still be making BETA VCRs for the consumer market too.
Steve, Host
My point is that if you drive your Ody Touring for a decade, you're still going to be able to get tires for the OEM rims.
Steve, Host
Looks like it's empty to me. The size is listed as a category, but there are no tires under that size. There was never any snow tire for that size throughout the time. There was never any good all-season for the size ever since 1990, three short years after my 1987 535i was made, as new tire technology became available for regular sizes. In contrast, my 2001 Saab 9-5 came with regular 16" Michelin all-season tires, with piss poor snow performance as usual; however, three years later, I was able to upgrade to triple-tread Contis with much better snow roadability. Oh, the Contis were one third the price of the TRX tires. Being locked in a proprietory standards for consumables is a terrible position for the buyer. Been there, done that. I had to replace all four TRX wheels with regular 16" wheels. As they say, fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.
I didn't specify a vehicle so maybe that's the difference.
Brightness04, what's film? Inquiring minds....
Steve, Host
Film is that funny thing you put in light block boxes. When you open the box for fraction of a second through a porthole capped with a piece of glass (lens), you get a portrait of the person you aim the box at. Some boxes also make a sound like "kodak."
The TRX tires you can still get from Michelin use new raw ingredients and newer manufacturing processes (I think one of my links said that as well).
So you have a limited edition product from 25 years ago, and you can still get parts to fit it. You do have to pay a premium, but the roll film for an old Brownie is hard to get and costs more than the 100 ASA stuff at the drug store.
If you want the benefits of the PAX tires, you'll be able to keep replacing the rubber in years to come.
Steve, Host
Sheet film cost more than 35mm (btw, both can be 100 ISO/ASA) because it is physically much larger and take more silver to make, and indeed can get much more detail than 35mm. 110 film however was a complete rip-off. It offers less silver halide jell than regular 35mm but cost more. It was a pure marketting exercise.
An even better example of such pointless corporate exercise is IBM with its PS2 MicroChannel technology after ISA became standard. Yes, a proprietory standard can be technologically superior for a couple years, but the lack of economy of scale quickly dries up R&D money down the road, leaving the standard behind the curve in a few short years, and many upset customers to boot.
For those who claim they're not adverse to new technology, that's fine. That's the decision that you've made for yourself and your family. The '05 Odyssey if for early adopters. Honda made it as part of the Touring package. You can choose to adopt it or not.
As people have mentioned, let the consumer decide with their money. PS/2 MicroChannel, OS/2, TRX are prime example of consumer not going for it. On the other hand, we've been using a similar radial tread tire for a little while. VHS has outlaster Beta and outlasted film reels and is being replaced by DVD.
"On the other hand, we've been using a similar radial tread tire for a little while. VHS has outlaster Beta and outlasted film reels and is being replaced by DVD."
The problem with PAX is not similar in that, one is being locked into an odd size rim. Radial tires fit existing rims without any difficulty and one could always go back to tire/inner tube set up if radials didn't catch on. Radials of old are equivalent to RFTs of now, although the lack of spare and RFT replacement costs were a deal breaker for me. However, being out last night in MD in foul weather, I wished I had bought the AWD van instead of FWD.
What is the cost, today, to replace all four tires?
When we trade our 05 for a newer model, and let's say at that time, four new tires are needed, how will that affect the trade in value?
It is my understanding that all three parts have to be replaced-not just one or two- of the three part construction. It is sold as a complete unit.
Only when a PAX (or Honda) aficionado mentions the good track record of Michelin.
IMO, Michelin would have had a much better time (and been extremely successful) if they had introduced a PAX-type RFT which ran on standard rims. Or developed a rim which could accept both PAX tires and standard tires. Then no one would be worried (rightfully or wrongly) that they would get stuck with a rim with VERY hard to locate tires.
You'll notice that 99.9% of the griping comes NOT from the idea of PAX tires in general, but from the idea of a proprietary rim.