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Tiger Woods doesn't win every tournament, but he's still Tiger Woods.
Corolla will be alright, now, and in the future.
The competition just has a chance now, until the '09 gets here.
DrFill
There is a saying in the Japanese automtive industry, though. And that is: "Cars that enthusiasts and critics praise don't sell." I am not going into details, but there is pretty strong statistical evidence to prove this saying, at least in Japan.
In that country, the Civic is basically a dead model, has been for many years now. I am not saying that the Civic is therefore a bad car. Not at all. In fact, automobile critics in Japan love the Civic (whoops). And I would personally like the Civic better if I were to choose between the Corolla and Civic for my own driving. But, again, in Japan, the Corolla has been outselling the Civic, by at least a 10:1 margin, with 15:1 being more like it in many years.
Why do you think this happens? And Japan is not the only place that this kind of market acceptance (and rejection) happens.
~alpha
Thanks for confirming for us that, as I noted, safety features like ABS and side bags/curtains are optional on the Corolla. The issue is not cost (wrt the Civic)... the issue is, how easy/hard is it to find a car with those features? Really easy if they are standard. Also, active front head restraints are not available on the Corolla at any cost. I hope the next Corolla will have them.
Also thanks for confirming that, as I noted, the Corolla has less power than the Civic. Is 10% more power with about the same fuel economy a good thing? I think it is.
For the driving position issue or handling, I will refer to to third-party reviews on the Corolla, e.g. C/D's review from Dec. 2006 where they talked about the Corolla's "souless driving" and said "all the guys complained" about the driving position (they theorized the Corolla is a "chick car" based on the driving position). Or you could look at other reviews, e.g. CR's where they complained about the "awkward" driving position.
It could be a really good chance, if the next Corolla is inferior to currently-available competitors, which is what happened when the last Corolla debuted. It was considered inferior even against older designs like the Protege and Elantra. There's some great competition out there, with the Civic, the Mazda3 (and a new one due for '09), the Rabbit, the new Lancer, the Elantra, and a new Focus coming. Corolla has its work cut out for it. Tiger better have his game face on. Lose too many tourneys, and pretty soon you're no longer #1.
New Corolla should get the SEVEN airbags Camry and Avalon get, standard ABS, more front seat space, about 10-20HP, an updated structure, plus some surprise goodies.
That will keep the fans happy. And coming back for more.
DrFill
Seven airbags will put it on par with the Lancer, standard ABS with the Civic and Elantra, more front seat space with the Elantra and Sentra et. al., more power and better structure with several cars. So those are all good, but the goodies will help... depending on what they are. Nicer plood maybe?
If the Corolla improves, as it should, it will lead the pack.
You conveniently left out the magic word.
And it ain't "Please". Remember that word. :P
DrFill
2007 YTD Sales:
Corolla - 165k
Civic - 137k
Cobalt - 83k
Focus - 79k
It just would be nice to have some of the latest features.
DrFill
It pushed a lot of my buttons: chair-like seating, proven engine in a nicely laid out compartment (are you listening Honda?), very reasonable fuel economy to be expected, gobs of room, small footprint, good road clearance (Michigan winters), solid build, everything fit nicely together, and it fit me too.
Mechanically this is very close to a Camry or RAV-4 (4A vs 5A), but in nearly all other regards it has more of what I want for about $4000 less. Content value is extremely high. Think of it as a micro-van. In this price range, the xB is a man amongst boys.
The Corolla had better be really, really nice if it hopes to compete. We still don't know much about the real world fuel economy, handling, etc., of xB or Corolla, but at its expected price the Corolla better be something very special indeed.
We nearly always send our Accord/civic trades out to auction immediately because if the owner 'demands' fair value of say $14000 on his 3 y.o. Accord LX 4c there is no way we can fix it up for resale and resell it. Would you pay $16000 for a 3 y.o. 30000 mi 4c LX? Better to send it right off to auction and turn it into cash.
When it came out on Super Bowl Moday of 2002 it was essentially a mini Camry. It is nearly as big as my 1989 Camry ( slightly narrower ) with more power and more features. The styling seemed to be a ripoff of the current Jetta at that time but it was/is very popular.
The seating to is awkward for me but it's heads and shoulders above the previous Gens where 'butt scraping on pavement' might have been a good description.
At the time the standard 1.8L was the leader in the class in terms of power well in excess of the standard engine on the Civic.
And...it was a 'Corolla'. As jacksan mentioned there seems to be no obvious explanation for this sales phenomenon except IMHO - 'value'. A buyer feels comfortable plunking down $15,000-$16,000 or signing up for 5 yrs at $300 or less and never having to worry about transportation again.
An interesting note. In the past recent periods the Civic was the sales leader in this segment...significantly. When we went to the launch training on this Gen Corolla in early 2002 they told us that the product planners 'promised' Toyota's upper management that this Corolla would take the lead away from the Civic. Whatever it is that they know they know it very well.
It also is a much nicer riding vehicle than the current Corolla with a much nicer interior and more comfortable seating. I think it's going to be HUGE success in this market.....as the Camry wagon. The Highlander abdicated that in favor of going bigger IMO. But for the many who don't need a $29000 near-luxo-ride ( the Highlander is a Lexus after all ) the xB offers everything one might need in a wagon and at a $5000 discount!! The xB is an LE Camry wagon which should sell for about $23000 with all the safety features standard but it sells for $17500...and it's a blast to drive as a 5 spd manual.
The Corolla is better basic transportation...for a traditional sedan buyer.
The 1.8L engine was hardly leading in power--e.g. the Elantra of the time had 135 horses. The Corolla was more powerful than the base Civic, but that car was low power (115 hp) for the class.
For the time, the car was well-built and had a nicely-finished interior. And the fuel economy was, and is, excellent for the class, a by-product of the car's low weight and efficient engine.
But now it's mid-2007, and the Corolla is outclassed by nearly every other car in its segment. Even when it debuted, it was not the top of the class. The fact it sells so well is a testament to the reputation of the Corolla as a reliable economy car, and those two words--reliable and economy--are very important to small car buyers. And also probably to the fact that, as drfill has said, many buyers don't bother to compare other makes, just go into the Toyota dealer and buy a Toyota. If that makes people feel better to spend their money that way, more power to them.
You know, taking the sales lead from the Civic doesn't mean much given how Toyota did it--with more dealers, large incentives, and large fleet sales. Sure, Toyota management can say, "We outsold the Civic!", but consider how they did it. When Hyundai sold over 20,000 Sonatas in December 2005, all we heard was "For shame! Just a lot of fleet sales and big incentives!" Which was true. What a double standard.
I don't know where your imaginary fleet sales are coming from, but Toyota stays below 10% on fleet, so if Corolla sold 10% fleet last month, it STILL would've outsold Civic's Record month, and Elantra's Year-To-Date!
If Hyundai didn't put so much money into crappy commercials, maybe they'd have more dealers? :surprise:
Is $1000 a large incentive? Oddly enough, it matches the legendary Elantra's $1000 incentive.
Toyota averages about $1200 in incentives, about one-third the domestics, and easily leads the US in sales per dealers, so you'll need a new straw to grasp.
DrFill
If you stay in the under $20,000 USD realm of Toyota cars the xB wins. BTW 90% of my driving is rural/highway.
If you want to match fuel economy of the Corolla, just wait for the xD. It might trade 1 - 2 mpg for hatchback utility, but do it for thousands less.
I would have bought a Corolla back in early 02, but for the 3 speed automatic. In comparison debating 4A vs 5A is almost a joke.
It will be interesting to see how the 2009 Corolla sells if incentives are cut/dropped. It will then be pretty equal in price to Civic, Sentra, Mazda3, and Rabbit, and have a large price disparity compared to Elantra, Spectra, and Lancer.
(BTW, I think it's odd that you beat up Hyundai for having fewer dealers than Toyota, when Toyota had a 30-year head start in the U.S. Also that you think it's OK for Toyota to be at parity with Hyundai in incentives. What does that say about the desirability of Toyota's cars vs. Hyundai's?)
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regardless of price, you should be comparing an civic ex to a corolla s, as those are the top lines right now. Yeah the corolla is cheaper, but its ancient...it should be.
The Civic has 140 hp and the Corolla has 128 hp a difference of 12 hp. They are both rated at 40+ MPG highway and 30+ MPG City. I don't think people buy either of these vehicles to tow anything with. So not sure what the difference in lack of power would be.
to echo what backy said, it just makes sense, same size engine in a heavier chassis that gets almost EXACTLY the same mpg (despite the weight disadvantage) with more hp. Why NOT is the question. When is 10% more power with the same economy suddenly a moot point?
and last but not least, the thing that seperates honda guys from toyota guys: a lean towards performance.
The corolla does sell in oodles...but does that make it better? you know how many crappy movies make a ton of money and how many lesser known ones that are great make nothing? same principle applies.
Most people shopping the corolla have no regard for sporting character. (now you know why the xrs died so quickly. long gone are the days of the revered corolla gt-s)
cheap, good mpg and reliability. and very versatile due to its blandness.
the civic has the economy and reliability down, but is just to darn stylish for most people and not exaclty cheap. That answers that question.
with regards to performance and how it determines if you are a honda or toyota guy , just read this:
Poor handling compared to the Civic
Not sure what you based this on either. They are rated about the same in most categories.
Both have Rack and Pinion steering, Disc brakes, Curb Weight (lbs.) Civic 2804 - Corolla 2615, Wheelbase (in.) Civic 106.3 - Corolla 102.4, Length (in.) Civic 176.7 - Corolla 178.3, Width (in.) Civic 69.0 - Corolla 66.9, Height (in.) Civic 56.5 - Corolla 58.5, Headroom (Front, in.) Civic 38.1 - Corolla 39.3, Headroom (Rear, in.) Civic 36.7 - Corolla 37.1.
what...does...this..have...to...do...with...HANDLING? Thanks for the comparo of interior dimensions. But thats not supporting the FACT that the corolla is the definte lesser handler of the two. Look at slalom times, skid pad numbers etc to find out about that.
But it probably doesn't matter huh? that kind of stuff is irrelevant to a corolla buyer. And that is totally fine...but it DOES prove how performance not only is not a priority to corolla buyers, but a foreign thing altogether.
ha ha! i need that one backster!
all joking aside, i'd like to check out the new corolla, just for kicks. I don't think it will blow the competition out of the water, but it will be competative.
Oh AE86, where have ye gone?? And where is the Toyota that made THAT little gem? :-(
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
My Mazda 626 is a dog below 4,000 rpm. With an automatic tranny good performance can only be experienced under hard/extended acceleration, like freeway merging up hill. Typically the engine has barely passes 4,000 rpm by the time I've completed a pass on a 2-lane road.
This brings to point perhaps the primary, real differences between automatic and manual transmissions, driver control of rpms. In slippery conditions low rpms help avoid loss of traction and when you want strong acceleration high rpms are needed. With small, limited power, rev happy engines the differences between transmissions become more significant.
Unless you're a boy racer 0 - ?? mph or top speed are meaningless. So lets keep the HP discussions to something relavent by looking at something like 30 - 50 mph or 50 - 70 mph acceleration times. And lets limit our transmission discussions to cost/convenience/performance/relability issues.
i guess that most car reviewers are boy racers?...
http://www.iihs.org/ratings/rating.aspx?id=256
The Corolla is more than competitive.
It's safe.
DrFill
ABS will be standard, with EBD, BA also std. I would presume Trac and VSC would make a option package.
As Toyotas are redesigned, they tend to make quantum leaps in power and equipment, if necessary.
Safety sells, but so do Corollas.
I would be shocked if Corolla received more than 140HP. From 28/37 I'd like to see it back to 30/38.
I don't expect a particularly stylish car. I like the current styling, but I anticipate a step back towards the Yaris.
One benefit to that is the Yaris is smaller, but more space efficient than the Corolla, so that could be a good sign.
Weight should stay below 2700 lbs. I fully expect a better power-to-weight ratio.
Purely speculation.
DrFill
Having rented an almost brand new '07 Corolla LE last year, I was disappointed in a car with mushy brakes and that unnatural seating position. Never could get comfortable in it. Hopefully Toyota will have done it's homework since it went back to the drawing board last year on the Corolla.
DrFill, why are Toyota brakes so lousy still?
The Sandman :confuse:
I sure Toyota could have rolled out a tweaked version of the current Corolla at anytime to address nearly all the concerns we've listed, but total Toyota vehicle sales certainly aren't suffering. The Corolla is a team player in the overall lineup. Again as a company gets bigger there's more to lose and less to gain from taking any chances.
As far as mushy brakes, you haven't driven my Mazda 626. :lemon:
P.S. If they put center-mounted gauges in it ala Yaris, I'll scream.
I'd like to see the compact (for urban considerations), tallish (for visability, space efficiency, and ease of access) form stay. Personally the Camry is too big (reminds me of the domestics my parents still drive). And I could do without another car with a hood like Camry or Yaris (looks like an upper lip pulled over the grill). The back of the Camry looks like the car it was designed from front to back and they didn't know how to finish it. I like the design of back of the current Corolla (looks tight and efficient without being "spacy").
It is fustrating that obvious design flaws haven't been addressed mid-cycle. But IME its primarily brand loyality (then economy and realiability) that keeps selling Corolla, certainly not features, function, design, or price (where its not competitive).
I still personally contend that when the 2009 North American market Corolla is (likely) officially unveiled at the 2007 Los Angeles International Auto Show it may sport more radical styling than people original thought, use this new 2.0-liter engine, and might even go to a 5AT transmission to further improve fuel efficiency.
DrFill
I'd go for smart/modern design that is space efficient before giving up room for sleekness.
I drool with thinking of what Toyota could build and grind my teeth when I see what they offer. A smart/modern styled 2.0L 5A 4-door hatch decently (PS, PB, cruise, AC, CD) equipped with a substantial feel and good handling/brakes for under $20K would be wonderful.
:confuse:
the corolla le displays it lovingly.
Valvematic
Although they will never be available in North America, the Noah/Voxy minivans come equipped with nifty one-touch flip-up third-row seats, shown here:
Noah/Voxy
Toyota builds a nice car, but gets you on options.I have never seen a Corolla on a dealers lot with all you could want.
Now the Civic EX or SI model, what you see is what you get.A Toyota is like odering a dinner in Naples Italy. You half to buy the Knief ,fork and spoon to eat your food.
Look at a V dub or Focus they offer leatherette,or leather with heated seats.The same with a Mini.Corolla doesn't.
Well, where I live mostly little old ladies or married boomers drive Corollas.
Toyota sells up to 50k Corollas a month. It's not trying to be anything more than a well-made, economy car.
Nobody does that better.
DrFill
As Edmunds said, you should expect in the low 20's for economy. You are definitely selling gas for power. For those who want bells and whistles. Expect another 10 MPG with a Corolla, or a Civic for that matter.
Some people buy sizzle. Some buy steak.
Plus, the Corolla has a pretty good reliability record, which the current VWs lack.
No one ever made a bad move buying a Corolla. That's the hook.
DrFill
You get poor-for-the-class mpg and mechanical problems in return for "German driving feel" and nicer interiors.