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Comments
Mack
I am definitely interested to see the production pricing and spec sheet regarding standard features and options for all trims. I thought it was curious that Edmunds.com's review showed a price of an estimate $21,975 for the loaded (Sport Pkg, NAV, leather, etc) Corolla S 5M. I wonder what that estimate was based on?
R: the All Weather Guard Pkg - it has been an option on the Corolla since I can remember. It seems just a way of keeping another approx $70 off the MSRP of the car. Its such a cheap option I don't see the point of not making it standard. Do people really notice the $70?
BTW, reports on the so-called 2009 indicate the sedan will share the same power plant and rear end as the Matrix, abandoning the 1FE engine and higher gear ratio trans. of the 2003-06 (especially manual trans).Corolla sedans. This is a giant step backwards for consumers but will reduce production costs significantly and allow Toyota to hold the line on pricing. This is a US specific change. Detuning was required to reduce MPG loss resulting in poorer performance except off the line. Now the drivetrain is just like all the clones and will loosen your fillings and stress you out on a long trip at high speed (3500-4000 RPMs). I can do 70-75 at a quiet 3000 RPMs on I-95. My advice, get a new '08 CE 5-speed sedan while you still can, especially with the $1500 factory to dealer incentive (see Edmunds).
Makc :shades:
- 200 lbs of safety features
- worse steering
- new (unknown to the U.S.) engine with mild performance upgrade
- better fitting for driver, but wider car
- higher street prices
- looks like it was designed more to fit into the Toyota lineup than to compete
Three year old Civic looks better and better.
BTW,
- I've hated the cheap feal of the current HVAC controls
- I'm 5'-7" and reach to the current steering wheel is excessive
- I like the current tall/narrow profile for city driving, egress, long range comfort
- I hate metal dash accents (glare in sunlight, dangerous in crashes)
- Auto climate control is just something else to go wrong (and pay for)
- The 2.4L option turns it into a ponycar wantabe (silly!)
Electric power steering is not worse, just different. It takes a few days to get used to it then you forget you got it.
Still outsell your Civic.
- 200 lbs of safety features .. these will be mandatory in every vehicle on the road in 3 yrs.
- worse steering .. personal perceptions, we will all have to judge for ourselves
- new (unknown to the U.S.) engine with mild performance upgrade .. Incorrect. This is the same 1.8L that currently is in the xD. If you haven't driven one then it's an entirely different experience. The current Corolla is loud and harsh. The xD is a lot smoother/quieter.
- better fitting for driver, but wider car ... better stability
- higher street prices ... see below
- looks like it was designed more to fit into the Toyota lineup than to compete ... as has been said many times here before it competes in a different segment of the economy car market. It in fact owns the generic-economy-appliance-commuter subsegment.
Three year old Civic looks better and better. .. personal preference. I think the Civic is a knockoff of my Prius..
What we have here in this new vehicle is the quintessential low-priced, low-cost generic commuter vehicle for the high-volume mass market. It can be mildly upgraded in performance and it can add some upscale features not normally seen in vehicles of this class. It has no other aspirations other than to meet this demand and make tons and tons of money in the process. If it does so it will be a smash hit. It's timing couldn't be better either. $4 gas in the Spring? $4 - $5 next year? $6 - $7 in 5 yrs?
Taking a step back and looking at the specs in a different frame of reference. Consider the Camry. For the better part of the past 15 yrs the Camry has owned the No 1 ranking among autos. The Gen4 Camry ( 97-01 ) was the No 1 vehicle every year it was out. This new Gen10 Corolla is a Gen4 Camry - just shorter.
It's the same width
It's the same height
It's more powerful ( both new engines vs the 2.2L in the old Camry )
it's more fuel efficient ( both engines )
it has more safety features than that Camry ever had
it has more upscale features than that Camry ever had
and most importantly....
it costs less than that Camry did - even after 5-10 years of inflation
So the buyers coming to the Toyota lots now have essentially two Camry's to choose from both versions have been the most popular vehicle in the US for multiple years.
Here's the hook. A buyer coming in to trade his/her 99 or 2000 Camry looks at the new Camry and say's
'It's soo big and the price is waaay more than I spent in '99. I don't need all that room or all that power.'
Reply...
'Would you like to buy your same 99 Camry with more features and better fuel economy ( fuel today is $3.75 per gal afterall ) but at a lower price than you spent in '99?'
DING!!!!!
I'm thinking more of the sticker shock perception of the buyers now that a lot of Camrys have far more available features than the Gen4's did. The LE was by far the most common purchase and just about all you could add were the features you noted and a Moonroof, sometimes aftermarket leather. $22,000 less discounts was a common transaction number
Now with the wider variety of trims and all the various options the stickers often run $25000 or even $29000. Yes an LE is still just around $22000, with more features, but IMO there are relatively few LEs for sale and more trims with higher prices giving the perception of 'WOW'.
Toyota has done a heck of a job making it's two key vehicles larger, more powerful, safer, more efficient and all at the same cost or less than 10 yrs ago.
Mack
- has fewer standard safety features
- has fewer standard comfort/convenience features
- has questionable quality on the interior
- has less interior room
- has a less sophisticated suspension
- has an all new engine that gets just 1 mpg (EPA overall rating) better than a relatively ancient, iron-block design while putting out less power and torque
- and is more expensive
than one of its major rivals that will be out for a year and a half when the 2009 Corolla debuts in the U.S. What "extra" does the new Corolla give us? An optional, more powerful (and thirstier) engine, availability of a 5-speed AT on the highest (most expensive) trim line only (already available on competitors like Civic and Mazda3, with 6AT on the Rabbit/Jetta); and availability of Bluetooth (already available on competitors like the Versa and Sentra) and factory nav (already available on competitors like Civic and Mazda3).
At one time, not so long ago (like the '90s), the Corolla was one of the top cars in its segment, because it was actually one of the best cars in its segment. I feel the 2009 Corolla will continue the more recent trend where the Corolla continues to sell in big numbers in the U.S. because of reputation, general competence, and buyers who don't know any better. Make a decent car (even if someone other than Toyota makes it, e.g. Daihatsu), put a Toyota label on it, and it will sell.
" Make a decent car (even if someone other than Toyota makes it, e.g. Daihatsu), put a Toyota label on it, and it will sell."
They already did. The original Scion xB or Toyota Bb is made by Daihatsu and so is the evolution of the Bb which we didn't get. It's also known as the Daihatsu Materia in other markets.
We keep Corolla was never meant to be an enthusiast car.
:shades:
As for the 2nd point, you simply amplified the point I made, rather than disagreeing with it.
With no voice control to operate the nav while driving, a portable GPS makes more sense than bothering with the factory nav system and then giving up bluetooth and the upgraded stereo.
I just don't necessarily think a vehicle has to be best in every aspect of execution to be a strong all-rounder which is the characteristic that has typically defined "Corolla".
Regarding "best", sometimes the most sophisticated componetry or specifications doesn't necessarily add up to being the "best". MT remarked that Toyota, despite the Corollas weight gain, has managed to keep it as light as the 'svelte' Civic, and that the body is impressively rigid. These are things that don't necessarily come through on a features sheet. We've not seen comparos or driven the cars, so I am interested to see how it actually compares on ride, noise, handling, real world FE, crash test scores, reliability, etc. And, pricing is yet to be announced.
Active head restraints are valuable, but not a new thing, e.g. see Civic and Elantra among others. Corolla is late to the party there, along with most everything else they are offering in the "new" Corolla. Except maybe for the hideous ground effects on the sporty models. Those are pretty unique--fortunately.
But, again, to my point about the actual component not necessarily being indicative of execution - the Elantra indeed has an active head restraint. However, it does not achieve a the highest rating in rear impact from the IIHS. So despite not offering something new, in the execution of the same component, perhaps Toyota has seized the chance to gain a competitive advantage there. (I recognize the Civic does achieve the highest rating with its active restraints, as do the Cobalt and Impreza but not many other direct competitors).
Sidenote -one thing I find annoying - where are the IIHS crash scores for Sentra, Elantra, etc? I hope Toyota fronts the Corolla to the IIHS for quick side and rear testing, as they did for the Highlander. Styling, as always, is subjective, and I find the "S" very unappealing because of its all flash/no-dash approach, but I guess the consumer has spoken and its a popular model. The body kit is way more acceptable on the XRS, for me.
I've said all I'm going to say about the 09 Corolla. I will never win an argument with backy and nippononly, but then again I expect that from Honda lovers.
Mack
The Camry is and will always be the center of everything in NA as far as Toyota is concerned; The Camry is the defining car, The Corolla is the good soldier that supports the Camry by covering it's back side to support the pricing of the Camry.
The Corolla is in fact the direct competitor to the Sonata simply because Hyundai doesnt want to price the Sonata directly against the Camry... that would be silly. So the Corolla does the dirty work of fighting off the Sonata buyers with a mini- Camry look and feel.
The Elantra isn't in the picture; it's priced too low. It may be the 'natural competitor' to the Corolla but buyers often class themselves by price segments.
I'm a consumer, not a salesman, so don't care which car sells the most.
Don't expect race car steering, but why take a step backwards. This is important here in the great white north where you need to know when the wheels are slipping in snow and ice.
I haven't driven the new engine, just going from the reviewers comments. But its new to the U.S. and the old engine/tranny were well known, so it'd better be better.
Tall/narrow design benefits city driving and egress for us older folks. Low and wide is what everyone else does, where's the choice in that?
Less discounts, less/no factory offers to be expected with a new . Haven't seen the Gen 10 Corolla, but can't believe its the same interior size as my '97 Camry (which was a bit too big for my taste).
Civic/Prius comparision?? Sure they're both metal transport boxes with 4 wheels with reasonable economy from Japanese based companies. Not sure what message you're trying to convey.
Agreed, gas prices will continue to go up as demand keeps increasely exceeding production capacity. Thats why we're here and not at the Hummer forum.
I'm not a salesman, so don't care about how various cars get pitched.
"looks like it was designed more to fit into the Toyota lineup (rather) than to compete".
This points to the GM-like mentality I saw in the 80's as a consultant that, like so many other large organizations, they couldn't see outside their own walls. Middle managers competing with each other, upper management busy trying to manage the middle managers and internal politics. Everyone fiddling while Rome burns.
Toyota hopes that their name sells Corolla. After years of waiting, the new Corolla (like the current one has aged into) is an entirely unremarkable product. Nothing so far indicates that it exceeds any competitor on any major point. How dull! The new Corolla even looks almost identical to the current .
The relatively new Camry just finished in last place in two recent Edmunds comparison tests, behind Malibu in both cases! And Toyota does not want to compete on price/content value (would tarnish their already fading reputation as they'd get lumped with the hungry Koreans instead of the much more elite Japanese).
:shades:
I have a friend who bought a wrist watch that had more "standard options " then the rest. Like water resistant, stop watch capability, date and illumines dial all for this for only $19.95. Pretty much did everything except keep the correct time. Which by the way
was why he purchased a watch in the first place.
Corolla may not offer all the "standard options" on there vehicles as some of the others. But they do offer a track record of reliability and resale value. Which is the main reason I bought the car in the first place . Corolla offers all the amenities as the others. But only if I want them. Simple but sound concept
I think this claim will turn out to be a "trick of the numbers", in that interior passenger volume will be similar, but with a higher roof helping to make that number. Therefore, knee and shoulder space will be more limited than in your '97, especially in the back seat, but the claim of "the same interior space as the '97 Camry" will technically be true.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
"looks like it was designed more to fit into the Toyota lineup (rather) than to compete".
This points to the GM-like mentality I saw in the 80's as a consultant that, like so many other large organizations, they couldn't see outside their own walls. Middle managers competing with each other, upper management busy trying to manage the middle managers and internal politics. Everyone fiddling while Rome burns.
Toyota hopes that their name sells Corolla. After years of waiting, the new Corolla (like the current one has aged into) is an entirely unremarkable product. Nothing so far indicates that it exceeds any competitor on any major point. How dull! The new Corolla even looks almost identical to the current .
The relatively new Camry just finished in last place in two recent Edmunds comparison tests, behind Malibu in both cases! And Toyota does not want to compete on price/content value (would tarnish their already fading reputation as they'd get lumped with the hungry Koreans instead of the much more elite Japanese).
In all of this you've missed about 2 month's worth of posts. Including the Camry ( btw the Camry finished first ahead of both the Accord and Malibu in Motor Trend's most recent comparo of the new models together ) Toyota has intentionally gone for the center of the generic, auto-as-appliance subsegment for it's two main vehicles.
It isn't a mistake that both the Camry and Corolla often seem bland in comparison it's intentional for several reasons, volume, volume, volume. Everything in the auto industry revolves around volume because the intial 'costs of entry' are so high. It's no mistake because this recognition of what the typical driver wants also where the highest volume occurs in a nornal distribution curve; +/- one standard deviation from the mean encompasses 68% of a population being studied, supplied, counted. After that the curve slopes shapely down.
From Wikipedia...Standard Deviation and confidence intervals
[edit] Standard deviation and confidence intervals
Dark blue is less than one standard deviation from the mean. For the normal distribution, this accounts for about 68% of the set (dark blue) while two standard deviations from the mean (medium and dark blue) account for about 95% and three standard deviations (light, medium, and dark blue) account for about 99.7%.About 68% of values drawn from a normal distribution are within one standard deviation σ > 0 away from the mean μ; about 95% of the values are within two standard deviations and about 99.7% lie within three standard deviations. This is known as the "68-95-99.7 rule" or the "empirical rule."
To be more precise, the area under the bell curve between μ − nσ and μ + nσ in terms of the cumulative normal distribution function is given by
What Toyota has done is hog the center of this segment by cutting costs to offer the least costly vehicle to the mjority of the buyers. In doing so it has turned a $17000 vehicle into a fabulous money maker. Your biased references ' as they'd get lumped with the hungry Koreans instead of the much more elite Japanese).' show a complete lack of understanding of what the Corolla has been til now and where it belongs. It is a basic low-cost rock-solid people-mover that makes money. Nothing else. It has alway been this with a few temporary offshoots. BTW Toyota is the elite Japanese ( worldwide ) maker simply because it makes the most money. This is only about business. Nothing else.
This is where your entire reference to GM fails. In the end all the comparo's are only beauty pagaents. In the end there is only one single metric that matter. Which products, which company makes the most money at the end of the year? By cutting costs and offering a vehicle that appeals to the masses rather than to the enthusiasts Toyota has been able to grow this name to the No 1 nameplate in the entire history of the world. It sells because it meets the needs of the masses. Because it meets the needs of the largest part of the masses it sells more than the others. Because it sells more volume than the others it has lower total costs than the others meaning it can be sold at a lower price and it can make big profits at a low transaction price.
Finally everybody has to eat. There is no way one company can sell an entire market. The others recognize that they [ a) can't b) choose not to ] compete in the generic people-mover subsegment ( where all the volume is ) so they make vehicles which appeal to different ( lower volume ) subsegments. But then their costs can't be as low as Toyota's because their volume is not great enough so they have to make their vehicle appeal in ways that are more costly.
In the end everybody is happy with each in their rightful places. These are business people afterall and their only concern is the bottom line. If Toyota has staked out the center why fight them down in the trenches of $17000? Let Toyota make money at $17000 due primarily to volume. The others will make money in other areas.
Actually the width and the height of both vehicles, the 97 Camry and the 09 Corolla, are the same or very minorly different. It's the length that's different by about 11" iirc meaning a somewhat smaller trunk and shorter wheelbase. Legroom probably is less in the new Corolla. Thus the interior room will be smaller primarily front to back.
Back to my original point, DRIVE IT FIRST then after that you will be able to form a more intelligent opinion that others here can respect. Thank you.
And why is it "beating a dead horse" to discuss concerns about the new Corolla, but not beating a dead horse to continually put forth (the same) positive opinions about it?
And if you think I am a Toyota hater, you really aren't reading my posts, such as when I opined recently about how the Corolla of the '90s was probably the best car in its class--not just the best-selling car, the best car. How could I hate Toyota but say it can make the best car in its class? And why would someone who hates Toyota buy a Prius (but unfortunately have to let it go when it could not be delivered in time)? And why would someone who hates Toyota be eyeing the 2011 Prius as their next mom/pop car? :surprise: See why it's best to stick to cars vs. making incorrect gnereralizations about people?
Mack :shades:
I don't think that critical comments necessarily make anyone a hater, nor do supportive arguments necessarily make someone a cheerleader.
The Corolla is in some ways a paradox par excellence in the auto world, which seems to evoke various kinds of emotion. Let's debate the car (and its business model) hard - but we need not unfairly label anyone while doing so.
One thing I noticed on the Mechanical and Performance section that has not been mentioned at all is this:
Active Torque Control with Electronic coupling. Sounds like Honda's ATTS system on their awd models and Prelude SH doesn't it?
Other than this system everything else is pretty much what we know about the car.
Cruise control and VSC are optional. I'm surprised they didn't make the cruise standard.
No pricing yet.
Stay tuned.
:shades:
Posting a concern once is the way to establish a "legitimate concern". Posting that same concern a couple of times could be considered a way to establish "serious concern". However posting that same concern over and over is like.... well... "beating a dead horse"
I have zero respect for Motortrend. It is fully bought and paid for by advertisers. Car and truck of the year award winners are easier to predict than the weather (whose turn is it that has a hopefully market impacting new being released). Some of the past winners were worse than laughable.
I rely on sources like Consumers Union and Edmunds.
I will drive it as I'll be in the market this year. But have had a bad experience with a first year Camry ('97) and don't expect any deals on a first year product. Might as well go with a Scion xD.
I had a '97 Camry and it was dull to the max (until the tranny went at 132k miles). We've all waited a long time for Gen 10 (wanted to buy another Toyota) and have seemingly gotten very little.
All Gen 10 seems to do is to bring Corolla up to current industry standards. Its not faster, innovative, bigger, or safer than anything else out there. Hopefully it will be cheaper and maintain good reliablity.
Again, I have zero respect for Motortrend (better named Advertising Moneytrend).
OTOH, I don't sell Toyotas for a living either.
And why should it? If it meets sales and profit targets of the mfr., there is no need for them to go extra mile and make it better than necessary. If you don't like it, don't buy it. I know I wouldn't, for many reasons, but I totally respect their ways. My regret is that people don't share my criteria and Toyota marketing practices simply drive me nuts, but it is completely different issue. Their job is to make car at price that would both make best profit and sell. Corolla fits that profile. They do that consistently. Many others could do only one thing at the time - some either.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
No one product will appeal to all buyers, some will be dissatisfied, some bored, others left wanting and for many it will just meet the need perfectly. All this is intentional.