Lexus LS 460/LS 460L Styling Impressions

swisspraveen · January 2006

i have heard that lexus is planning a sports line-up like the mercedes amg's, bmw m's, or audi s.
in magazines here in europe there were spy pics of an is460 with body kit.
perhaps they will offer anything similar for the LS too.

oac · January 2006

"... magazines here in europe there were spy pics of an is460 with body kit. perhaps they will offer anything similar for the LS too."

Do you have a link on this? I'd like to see where Lexus puts its new 4.6L motor in their smallest car, an IS, before it gets to a GS... That'd be interesting, unless if they are construing the IS460 as their M-fighter... A 380HP motor in that small 3000Ib car should do under 5s 0-60, and maybe a low 12 quarter-mile.

syswei · January 2006

try here: link title

callmedrfill · January 2006

They'll remember "enthusiast" drive stick!

Maybe.

DrFill

swisspraveen · January 2006

"...they are construing the IS460 as their M-fighter"

rumor has it that the next m3 will have 400+ hp v8,
so i suppose, lexus will have to squeeze out some more hp's out of the v8.

i mean the LS already has a very impressive 82,6 hp/litre.
and with 82,9 hp per litre they could get 400 hp.

cyclone4 · January 2006

I attended my first ever auto show today (Saturday) and of course it had the be the Big One in Detroit. My son-in-Law works for Ford here in Detroit and he knew all the "ins and outs" of the show. First of all, I thoroughly enjoyed the show. Basically, every vehicle imaginable was on display. There were also quite a few concept cars. One of the most interesting such concept car was a little Toyota that reminded from something from the old cartoon show, "The Jetsons". The exterior was kind of weird (no big deal) but the interior appeared very futuristic. It almost looked like one would put it on auto pilot and drive.

Obviously, my greatest interest was with the new Lexus LS460. It looked very impressive. But unfortunately, I think I knew more about the features of this vehicle than did the spokeswoman that gave a talk and demonstration. I asked her after her talk about the car being able to park itself and also about the "staying in the lane option" (I believe it is called LAD) and she was rather clueless about these features. She said something to the effect that Lexus has not yet made the final decision on the car's features. I then asked her when the LS600h was going to be available and she did not even know what the LS600h was. When I explained to her that it was going to be the hybrid version of the LS460, she got a hold of a gentleman that was a bit more on the know and he said that it would be available in 2007 and that it would be on display at the New York Auto Show in a couple months.

It is now 2:30 AM EST but what the heck. I am sleepingg until Noon. I am posting this from my daughter's house in Belleville, MI.

garyh1 · January 2006

Hopefully the "spokeswoman" was at least attractive!

So can you tell us any more about what you thought about the new LS besides "very impressive"? And did you look at the new S; if so, what did you think of the wheel flares and butt?

billsoter · January 2006

I'm not sure I understand Lexus' thinking if, as appears likely, the 2007 LS 460 will only be rear wheel drive with no option for all wheel drive.
Each week, Lexus runs a full page ad in the Wall Street Journal extolling the virtues and necessity of AWD on the GS and IS models. Further, the LS' target MB's 2007 S Class will have an AWD version this fall.
To only have AWD on the "Super Lexus" as mentioned on this forum makes no sense.
I love my 2003 LS, it's by far the best car I've ever owned. I'd like to trade up to to a 2007 LS 460 but only if it has AWD. Absent that I'll seriously consider the MB S Class.

callmedrfill · January 2006

Let's face it. There aren't many people left with the brains of a 32-valve V8 and the beauty of a "spokesperson".

I'm not ready for cloning! So stop asking! :P

Bill

Sorry, Bill, but perfection eludes Lexus again, as they choose to introduce AWD first on the Hybrid, then add it to the LS460 in 2007 for the 2008 model. Part of their strategy to introduce features over time, keeping the model fresh. The IS350 suffers the same fate, with no manual tranny.

DrFill

cyclone4 · January 2006

She was indeed attractive. As far as the 460 is concerned, I really like what they have done to its looks (especially the rear). The front end is probably still a bit more conservative looking (but nice), but I think the designers did not want to lose all continuity from the LS430. Personally, I think it looks awesome but my wife (what does she know?) thinks it is still too conservative looking but greatly improved. The looks is one thing but the technology of this vehicle is out of this world. However, I am going to wait for the 600h which will be "out of this universe".

I don't think I am being biased here when I state that I did not like the looks of the S550. You said it yourself with the "wheel flares and butt". They look ugly. In fact, I commented to my son-in-law how those wheels look so ugly and he totally agreed.

nvbanker · January 2006

If you find a good looking model who is also a "car guy", it kind of doesn't work for me anyway.... They need to stay to the script, IMO.

mikegiller · January 2006

How about Danica?

nvbanker · January 2006

Good point, Mike. Good point. I still get the feeling though, at those auto shows, whether the spokesperson is male or female, that they don't know beans beyond the script. I'm more forgiving of a female however, I guess because I've never had a really good discussion about a camshaft with a woman. My favorites however, are the attractive Asian models, who just stand around the car, and don't speak at all. Ford should get some of those. Couldn't hurt. Especially aroung a 500. Maybe someone would look at the car then.

mikegiller · January 2006

The only reason why we know so much about these cars is because we make it our hobby to find everything out about the cars until they come out because we are "car guys". She was just hired from some agency to look pretty and then was briefed with the most "FAQ".

My idea is that the models shouldn't say a thing as well. If you want your questions to be answered by her, she should put her index finger over her lips, wink, and pass you a brochure.

merc1 · January 2006

A treat for you Lexus guys. Some of my pics from Detroit of the LS460:

M

callmedrfill · January 2006

Good lookin' out, but you are way off on the LS460L being "out of proportion" in LWB form.

I just recorded NBC's 2HR Auto Show Special, and they were all over that car, and the view (my first non-stilled) fairly reeks of elegance and proportion. From the profile, I cannot tell if it's LWB or not until they spin it around back! Good job, Lexus!!!

Thanks for the slick rear end, with the concept's exhaust! I wish the Germans could do that! Or maybe I don't?

NVBanker

I think Ford needs more than an Asian standing near their cars. A lot more.

Are you sayin' Ford can't even run an car show display without screwing it up?

I hear ya! LOL!!! :P

DrFill

merc1 · January 2006

but you are way off on the LS460L being "out of proportion" in LWB form.

Well I guess you had to be there. To my eye the LS460 looks better balanced than the LS460L.

M

callmedrfill · January 2006

When the official LS600hL is released. We'll see on 11th Avenue, my friend.

But I haven't seen a line out of place yet. I don't expect to see one either.

DrFill

doctordata · January 2006

Here is the Lexus LS model type line up for 2007:-

Base Model - LS460 Normal Wheel Base - Cost $65K approx.

LWB Nodel - LS460 Long Wheel Base - Cost $71K approx.

LWB Hybrid - LS600h - Possibly AWD - COST $85k.

doctordata · January 2006

Lexus is currently selling the LS, GS and IS in Japan. The
number of Lexi sold to-date in Japan since August 2005 is
four times more than they estimated.

The LS430 is out selling BMW 7 Series two to one.

doctordata · January 2006

The Lexus LS430 is being dropped once the LS460 comes out.

So I would hang on to my LS430 only until I could get a
LS460 - which is a much better built vehicle - can you imagine that!!! I would place my order now because there is going to be a waiting list.

doctordata · January 2006

There is no such thing as a "Lexus Bug" - these species have been eliminated at the design stage.

ljflx · January 2006

"So I would hang on to my LS430 only until I could get a
LS460 - which is a much better built vehicle"

Not sure what you are saying here. Are you implying the LS460 will be much better built than the LS430 - a car that is already built to the highest standars around. I'd say Lexus will continue to improve their production techniques but to say "much better built" is a dramatiic overstatement.

As for wait lists - I think they will gear up on plenty of unit sales, so I think if there is a shortage it will work its way out by December on SWB cars. I'd expect a wait list and maybe a serious one for the 600H though. I think the initial production on the LWB car will be short of demand - just like the 2001 ultra was but all will be fine by early 2007. Hope so because i'm a late March 2007 lease renewal and LWB is where I'm going.

Prices - I'd guess a $74-84K range on the LWB, a $65-71K range on the SWB and $92-105K on the LS600H. I also wouldn't rule out the LS600H offered solely as a fully optioned $99K car from the factory with only dealer added options as extras. I'm expecting AWD to be offered on the LWB car as an option and for it to be standard on the LS600H.

callmedrfill · January 2006

If the 600 goes for more than $90k, loaded! A loaded LWB won't go for more than the S550, at $86k. I'd expect a $5k premium over a loaded LWB, no more. Lexus is still all about value.

Check out my new Forum, Rank the Big 4: Ford, GM, Toyota, Chrysler, in News & Views.

DrFill

cyclone4 · January 2006

ljflx,

Your knowledge and insight never ceases to amaze me. You are also a voice of reason around here. I am going to wait for the LS600h and trade in my 2004 LS430 at that time. It will be tough to wait but driving the present LS is still very much a joy. It will be very interesting to see new information on the 600h in the next several months.

ljflx · January 2006

Let's go back to this spec sheet and see if we can build the pricing. Let's get some thoughts from everyone on this.

http://www.lexus.com/2007ls_preview/specifications.html

Here's my guess:

Base car $60K (premium package is finally std.)
ML/Nav 5K
Hard drive .7K (this may also be wrapped into the ML)
Lux pckge 3K (one touch trunk, 4zone AC and CC seats)
Pre-safe 2.5K

Total range - 60-71K (good luck finding the $60K car though)

LWB car $69K
ML/hard drive 3K
Premium seat
pck + Ent 5K (will include 4 zone AC)
massager 2K (includes foot rest)
pre-safe 2.5k
AWD 2K

Total range 69-84K (I'd say most will ship with first 3 items for the dealer lots)

LS600H 95K
pre-safe 3K
AWD 2K

Total range 95-100K but I would expect it's possible that this will simply have it all for $98K or 98K + AWD as a separate option. You don't need AWD in half the country (this is Audi's big mistake). I'd also expect this car to offer things (or perhaps have them as standard equip which would alter the base price) that are unavailable in the other trims and I don't see a 520-550HP car retailing for just $5K more than a loaded LWB car. This car is set to compete with the S600 not the S550.

These are really not bad prices - It's just that you can write off any chance to get discounts in year one and prices may go over MSRP in hot areas and I'm afraid my area is one of them.

What does everyone think and what are the thoughts of others?

Cyclone4 - thanks for the compliment and start saving your money. That LS600H is going to be a mind boggling car and a very hot one at that.

cyclone4 · January 2006

Hopefully, my 2004 LS430 will be worth about 40K+ at that time. Thus, I will need to dish out another 60K.

Or, I may work out a one payment lease like we did with the RX400h (my wife's) last year. I put up 25K. After 3 years, we have a choice of keeping it (for another 28K I believe) or getting a new vehicle with probably better hybrid technology at that time. This would be in the spring of 2008.

blkcadillac · January 2006

It's somewhat vague if rear reclining seats are optional or not.

This is from the LS460 specs on lexus.com

For rear passengers of the 460L, available amenities include a center console table, climate-comfort seats and a rear-seat massager (right rear seat only).

nvbanker · January 2006

I appreciate the above pics. At least Merc will no longer accuse Lexus of copying the Mercedes - clearly, this was Bangle inspired. I like it, but I wish Lexus hadn't made it such a "BMW light" design. It's really obvious who they're chasing now. Oh, I'll buy one someday, very likely, it's very nice. Wonder how Stuttgart (sp) feels now? The only thing worse than being imitated - is when you no longer are...

lenscap · January 2006

There was an article all about the new LS in the Wall Street Journal dated 1/9. A quote from the article: "The new LS also will be more expensive than Toyota Motor Corp.'s past Lexus vehicles, surpassing the $70,000 mark, as the company makes a bid to up the ante on luxury and the sticker price that goes along with it...The company will hit the $100,000 price tag for the first time with a longer, hybrid version of the LS. That vehicle will compete head on with Mercedes' S600, which is only available in the long wheelbase, and BMW's 760Li, neither of which are hybrids."

oac · January 2006

LS460 SWB range = $60-71K; I agree totally !
LS460 LWB range = $69-$84K; I'd say $70-82K tops (gotta come in under the S550 base)
LS600H LWB only = >$90K+. I'd wager mid-$90K-ish.. IMO, it will not hit the $100K range LOADED. The 6-figure range is exclusive to the LF-A roadster, at >200mph, V10, 500+HP, going head-on against the SL55 and its siblings....

rgsw · January 2006

">http://www.lexus.com/2007ls_preview/index.html?s_ocid=20460
Goor preview URL/site.

ljflx · January 2006

OAC - I think the 600H will have an available option package that takes it to the low 100's. There's an inherent automatic prestige factor that comes with crossing that plateau and I think Lexus is ready for it. We'll see. I can see the LWB stopping at 82K but I can also see a fully loaded one with pre-safe reaching 84-85K. In all honesty I think final pricing will be determined by the dollar/Yen exchange rate forecasts. Everything I know about business tells me they will underestimate the demand for LWB cars and the hybrid even though the RX hybrid is such a big success.

callmedrfill · January 2006

No be careful! :surprise:

The RX400h is successful, but let's not make it into a legend just yet.

It sells around 22-2400 a month, which for $50k is pretty good, but with a nice sized customer base, and no competition, it isn't platinum.

Now I forget the actual price of the thing. I think it is under $50k, than with options goes to around $54k.

Are you guys sayin the LWB option will cost $10k?

I think that's a bit much, $6-7k is more like it, provided you also get a couple of extra features thown in (Rear Auto Climate, rear heated seats, power sunshade, etc.)

I see $90k, $95k w/options for the 600. This would kill the S600, and the S550 would be fighting uphill for years! :shades:

DrFill

ljflx · January 2006

It's probably a volume issue. Do they want high volume and an S550 killer here or low volume, high price, high prestige. It can go either way. If priced where you think this will bring down MB prices in a hurry.

callmedrfill · January 2006

I'm not thinking of volume so much as replacing Mercedes S-Class as THE luxury car icon in this country.

Lexus also needs to leave room above the LS to fit a LF-A, when produced.

I think $100k affects sales when crossed, and Lexus will be mindful of that.

We still seems to be in a state of confusion on the base price of the LS460. Will it go under $60k? Move to $65k?

Toyota has brought out much larger engines in other classes, without making the car several thousand more expensive, so they have the ability to curb price increases.

DrFill

ljflx · January 2006

It makes no sense - IMO - to price the LS600H under $85K or even $90K if they are not going for volume. If a rarer car is the case prestige becomes the factor and the car has to get near or over $100K. In all the pricing strategies I've been involved in - and they have been many - you can't have it both ways. That's a lose-lose situation for the Mfr.

As for the LWB car I see it meaningfully above a loaded SWB car for several reasons. Naturally the longer wheel base itself plus the fact that it will have things available that won't be available on the SWB car if you go back to the spec sheet. It also doesn't seem that they are going to have an ultra version of the SWB car anymore.

callmedrfill · January 2006

What is considered volume? Lexus execs have been trumpeting their "value" stance recently, even when explaining their sales records at the end of the year.

I've seen the RX400h priced $3-5k above the RX, loaded, so I think it may go to $7-8k in the LS.

Lexus is still trying to sell the Hybrid technology, and the RX400h has been good, but not platinum.

They've been pretty clear on the fact that volume and hybrids go together, in the business plan.

The GS450h is only $65k, and it hasn't lit up the press, so jumping over $100k maybe stepping over the line.

DrFill

tagman · January 2006

The GS450h is only $65k, and it hasn't lit up the press

DrFill - Do you think the reason for that might have more to do with the vehicle itself and not the "hybrid factor"? The reason I ask is that I am of the opinion that perhaps the "hybrid factor" in and of itself is not enough to sell any vehicle that Toyota/Lexus equips with it. It needs to be married to the "right" vehicle. Maybe the GS is just not the right vehicle for this marriage.

But, I would venture to say that the LS IS the right vehicle for such a combination. The LS with the long wheelbase and hybrid together will be a TOTAL winner. It is the first and only Lexus sedan that I would ever consider buying and I am quite convinced that I would be in the company of many others who feel that way.
TagMan

ljflx · January 2006

DrFil - What are you measuring value against? At $100K the LS hybrid with 520HP is one hell of a value proposition vs the big V10-12 Germans. If you are measuring it against the S550 forget it. The car is not being built for that - it's being built to steal the thunder from the high HP German cars that range from $115-132K, to raise the bar on Lexus prestige and prices and to steal as many German car buyers as there are from those cars and fully loaded $100-105K S550's. Price it too low and it misses it's whole WOW factor. I think you are comparing this car in the market to the wrong car and I think you are missing how Lexus intends to do business in the future. The US is won, the world is the goal now and Asia is step one.

tagman · January 2006

At $100K the LS hybrid with 520HP is one hell of a value proposition vs the big V10-12 Germans.

ljflx - Mercedes has the AMG variant, as you are well aware, and it is well known to represent much more than mere HP. There are significant "appearance" transformations as well as major engineering/performance enhancements. Boosting the LS to 520 HP can not be enough by itself. What are the other engineering enhancements to handle that power? And what about significant appearance enhancements as well? What will all these be?
TagMan

ljflx · January 2006

Tagman - you can get to $100K on an S550 without the AMG variant though. The S65 is what -$160K? And the S55 - is it $110-115K? This car is just going after the non-Amg's. It's a stock car. But supposedly there are Lexus tuned variants that are coming but I'd expect them to be in 2008. Agree about the GS hybrid - it's not the tour de force car. Only the LS can do that job. The GS hybrid is just a placeholder until the LS600 comes out. But I expect Lexus is going to have a tuned GS in the near future and they'll get rid of the VDIM lock-up on the stock car and underneath that locking control is one hell of a car waiting to get free.

tagman · January 2006

Thanks, but still, how will they handle 520 HP? Seems like it might be too much for the standard engineered suspension. Then there's the question about too much stability control or performance limiters. What's your take on this? After all, 520 HP is a bunch of ponies.

callmedrfill · January 2006

As all LS' are over-engineered anyway, and a Euro-suspension of some kind will be offered, they can make it work.

Maybe I don't know, ljflx, how Lexus is going to do business, or their 5-year plan, but their recent hybrid introductions and press quotes don't lead me to believe that an LS over $100k is in the immediate future.

The modest premiums of the GS and RX hybrids back me up. Maybe things will be different with the LS, but $90k-95k is a very nice, and attractive room, just below the penthouse, of the premium luxury sedan class, and where I would park the Hybrid.

Maybe, once it blows up like we think, they will move it up, like they did with the original LS.

Toyota has been very aggressive with power, but not with price. I don't see a $30k jump in price this year.

They will get there, soon enough. Don't give them any of the wrong ideas! :mad:

DrFill

yak54 · January 2006

The new LS will have a multi-link suspension front and back. Do you think this will give it the road handling ability of a BMW 750I?

nunnz · January 2006

What are your thoughts on the 2007 Lexus LS460S vs the new 2007 Mercedes S450. Both verhicles are priced around $80k

callmedrfill · January 2006

The LS460 is a competitor for the S550, not anything less. S450 is no competition, as many mags have astutely pointed out in this generation.

DrFill

nunnz · January 2006

Assuming you only wanted to spend $80k and if you got the Lexus you wanted to LWB.....you would absolutely pick the LS over the Mercedes S450? Why is that?

tagman · January 2006

DrFill - The LS460 will end up being compared to the S450, as well as the S550, so get ready for it. It is a natural, and IMO, there is enough justification to do so. I suspect that there will be mags that will make such a comparison, and some will actually prefer the MB S550, and maybe even the S450. No doubt the Lexus will score high marks, but it would be foolish to completely ignore the S450 as a potential competitor.
Unfortunately most of the world will not consult with you first.

So . . . Let's see where it all goes.
TagMan

tagman · January 2006

barrys  Your concern about the suggestion that Lexus should actually RAISE its prices is reasonable and logical, IMO. I agree with you and DrFill that the Lexus price structure does not need encouragement to rise too quickly, for its own sake, but I do believe that the more extreme opinions expressed here will not influence Lexus's strategic marketing.

Remember, Toyota/Lexus is among the best in the world at this. Many of the Lexus fans on this forum have a major affection for the automaker, which is clear from some of the posts. This is quite natural for there to be more extreme views like this. The views expressed by many of the German car fans are just as powerful, and those views sometimes in a similar fashion are supportive of the price and/or value of the German cars.

Let me clarify that I believe that the high-end German car prices are often too lofty and have posted this opinion in the past. I have also posted that the Lexus price strategy of keeping the prices lower than the competition has been essential to their success, and is, in fact, an integral part of their marketing formula.

I have tremendous respect for companies with brilliant strategies, and I include Toyota/Lexus (Wal-Mart is another) among my most respected. They are not perfect, of course. And my respect for them should not be construed as an endorsement or to infer that I am biased in favor of their products . . . just a respect for their marketing brilliance.

The price advantage is essential to perceived value. Consider DrFill's opinion that the S450 cannot compare to the LS460. Well . . . buyers and critics alike WILL make the comparisons, and as they do so, many of them will draw the conclusion that DrFill draws, partly due to the price difference as it relates to how much car the buyer perceives to obtain for the $$$. Lexus will continue to stand out as a good value, because it has an historic reputation and foundation based upon reliable value, with good momentum in its wake, and it will be deliberately priced to further the cause. However, there are other factors that affect the sale of an automobile, and many people will choose other marques instead of the Lexus, of course. There are no actual "right or wrong" choices when purchasing an automobile . . . only a spectrum of preferences, criteria, and/or "need-fulfillment" . . . which buyers will perceive as "right" for themselves and/or others.

Will Lexus boost prices? Beyond factors such as monetary exchange rates and/or political global trade pressures, there have been views expressed that they will and that they should deliberately do so . . . and those suggestions of deliberate price increases and a shrinking price gap/advantage have raised your concern. However, aside from minor fluctuations and tweaking, I think it is clearly more likely that Lexus will stay on their successful path and maintain the integration of perceived price advantage as a key factor in their brilliant and successful marketing strategy. In essence, it is a key component to what defines Lexus, and Toyota/Lexus is not about to tamper with its core perceptual definition.

TagMan

Lexus LS 460/LS 460L Styling Impressions

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