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Lexus LS 460/LS 460L Styling Impressions

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Comments

  • nexuslexusnexuslexus Member Posts: 147
    The real reason i am concerned (if you can call it that) is that this "new" system may hinder reliability. I certainly wouldn't want to see Lexus taking chances with the reliability of their flagship, but I was already burned by another first year Toyota product (the Sienna in 2004) which was significantly less reliable its first year. Normally Lexus cars are just as reliable in their first model year as in later model years, and I hope that remains the case with the Ls600hl.
  • atlas7atlas7 Member Posts: 126
    Who cares about stature? I will take a lower priced Lexus any day...don't raise those prices for the sake of "stature", geez.
  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Member Posts: 359
    As I have been saying earlier, LS 460 and LS 460L should be priced head-to-head with Audi A8 at least. The sales will fall a notch but the revenues will remain stable or increase slightly.

    In other words as of today

    1. LS 460 = $65-67K at least
    2. LS 460L = $70-72K at least

    Lexus will have to discard cut-rate pricing in a gradual way so that it can compete with germans on an equal footing globally. It should gradually raise the pricing to compete with 7-series over next 4-5 years and keep the technological edge.

    Keeping the price down may work for value models like the Toyotas but in Luxury arena we need premium pricing.

    If a great product is value-priced compared to its competitors it casts a negative psychological influence on prospective customers in well developed markets like US, Europe and Japan.

    Please remember that the original aim of Lexus LS to provide value back in 1990 was to gain market share through cut-rate pricing and give the customers a taste of Lexus. The value pricing or cut-rate pricing in itself was not the end goal. it was a starting point at least in my opinion.

    Now, after 17 years if LS continues to be offered at 21% discount compared to Audi A8 and 45% discount compared to S550 then it will generate a negative subliminal effect on prospective buyers.

    The goal now should be to establish LS as a global flagship competitor to S-class. And premium pricing at least matching Audi A8 and then gradually raising it to 7-series is the way to go.

    I do understand your point that Lexus should offer you the car loaded with value, but I am afraid it will be bad for Lexus brand as a whole.

    Steve
  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Member Posts: 359
    I just noticed that on googling Lexus LS and other german brands, the results from wikipedia are highly ranked.

    Upon visiting these wikipedia webpages, I noticed how well written are the articles on german cars like BMW 7-series and S-class as well as Porsche.

    On the other hand articles on lexus LS etc are very poorly written.

    It seems that the PR departments of european brands are very active and alert, whereas the PR department of Lexus and Lexus enthusiasts are oblivious to the urgent need of revamping these articles on wikipedia.

    Wikipedia is here to stay and is getting ever more prominent day by day.
  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Member Posts: 359
  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Member Posts: 359
    How a Luxury brand should evolve its pricing strategy:

    *1. Stage1 : Offer more for Less. example, LS 400 in 1990.
    *2. Stage2: Offer more for same: this is where lexus should be.

    *3. Stage3: offer Same for Same: example Audi A8 and BMW 7-series are very close in pricing offering similar contents at similar pricing. Audi is slightly less expensive because of less horsepower and less gadgets.

    * Stage 4: Offer same for more: This is where S-class is.
    It offers similar horsepower, gadgets, comfort, prestige, for a lot more money because it is well established. More so than BMW and Audi.

    Lexus should evolve from stage 1 to stage 2 now and price its products head-to head with Audi A8 at least.
  • atlas7atlas7 Member Posts: 126
    Disagree completely. Lexus can build a better car for less because their labor rates are less than the Germans, who have extremely high labor costs. Lexus value is and always will be that they build a car as good or better than the higher priced competition. Lexus will certainly increase prices as their cars get more Luxo and Power. But to price them the same as the Germans for the sake of prestige is ill advised. You keep referring to Audi? Who the heck cares about Audi, not Lexus, that's for sure. Let the other guys worry about Lexus, not vice versa.
  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Member Posts: 359
    Your argument is based on costs whereas I am talking about building and evolving a brand for the future. These are two separate issues.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Steve,

    MSRP pricing is all about what is standard on the car. An LS 430 ultra at $72K is very similar to a loaded SWB A8 already. Lexus is entering a broad test pricing phase right now - when you think about it - and they are not about to leave any customers at the altar. So you'll see prices range from $65-67K for a moderately equipped SWB LS to around or just over $100K for the limo edition LS600HL.

    I again called my dealer today and the pricing I just put up there was his estimate as there is nothing official from Lexus yet but there are some guidelines - as he put it. The news that is scaring me is the demand for the hybrid and what's more based on the discussions I had with him is that people are depositing the full blown limo edition of the 600HL, which they are telling people will run at $100-105K. So Lexus doesn't need to build stature by raising prices thru the roof. They can have their cake and eat it too with greater model variability, thereby keeping the $65K customer and attracting the $100K customer with the same model platform. That is really the second stage of stature anyway. Pricing follows and the tiered availability of models brings the higher prices. As for MSRP - compare features for price - not just price. An LS460 won't debut at $70K simply because it lacks the standard features of a $70K Audi and the others you are comparing it to. But a comparably equipped LS460 will surpass the A8 and you'll see plenty of $80K+ LS sales in LWB platform and of course in the even longer wheel based LS600HL. Then of course you have the LF-A coming and in 2009 you'll have a $150-170K super Lexus with a V12 hybrid. The 600HL when coupled with those two cars is plenty of stature and it's all coming to a theatre near you shortly.
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Member Posts: 2,302
    Len,

    It is so great to have you back posting again. You had every right to get upset at some of those "ignoramuses". I also saw what one of the participants called the Lexus fans. That behavior is so childish that he should have been banned from these forums.

    Getting to the subject at hand, do you have any idea about what sort of AWD the LS600hL will have (electrical or mechanical)? Also, could you explain the peculiarities of both to those of us that do not know the fine details? I would think that the LS600hL will be equipped with the most sophisticated features no matter what.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    I'm not an AWD expert. I always have thought and read that the Audi system is the best AWD system there is. My old boss had an A8 and he put snows on every year. Audi's tires were so low profile (and he had 18" tires, not 19") that the AWD wasn't much help to him in the snow. But with blizzaks it was like an LX470. So I wouldn't worry anout the system and if Lexus is going the Audi route it's probably better. But I'd think more about the tires you get with AWD as you may still need snows. In NJ where I am we seem to get snow in feet more often than in inches. So many storms in the past 10 years have been 1-3 feet. In that type of snow you aren't driving with a car as you want that ground clearance an SUV gives you. So I may take my chances with whatever tires I get given the snow is more infrequent (though much heavier when it occurs) than in places like Chicago or other midwest cities.

    Other board - It has degenerated so badly with some of the most immature posts I've read on Edmunds in 6 years of posting. I noted that even Pat commented about it when I caught up on some posts. It's becoming a Euro board and without Lexus participants it'll die off. I'll stick to this neighborhood and avoid the lunacy that goes on over there. But I've also got a lot of business activity going on right now so I'll be away at times.

    Let's get a good handle on the pricing but I'll tell you what I am hearing is there is a lot of demand for the LS600HL and in the most expensive trim no less.
  • atlas7atlas7 Member Posts: 126
    To ignore price is absurd, they are not separate issues. Price is one of the reasons Lexus has been so successful. Lexus has always delivered more for less. They shouldn't stray from that strategy as they build the global brand. Most Lexus buyers could give a hoot about "prestige"; otherwise they would have bought German. The new lexus products speak for themselves, more luxo, power, and advanced technology. The Lexus pricing model will always be less than the Germans, for a better or comparable automobile. Lexus strategy will be to differentiate their cars via, reliability, luxury, power, etc...THAT is how they will get prestige, not by artificially raising prices to be in line with German pricing. Lexus prices will increase, but remain less than Germans pricing for comparable.
  • ideleidele Member Posts: 200
    I completely agree. I am a Toyota stockholder currently holding $200K+ worth of stock and have held at times $500K+ worth. So I write as an investor.
    I think that Lexus should continue pricing sensibly. Their vehicles are superior to the equivalent German brands in quality, reliability, service and retained value. With the hybrids they are vastly superior in technology. It seems that the LS600h will be priced at a bargain level:I don't think Lexus will make money on them for a few years. Production is evidently going to be limited. I believe Lexus should concentrate on bulding up sales in Japan itself and in Europe and the Middle East. If that leads to a severely limited supply in the USA, so be it. The LS460 itself with its newly refined powerplant and an eight speed transmission and all the electronics that works (and is superior to the Eurocars) and justly priced will be a very big winner
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    When the LS is redesigned, it is to have 380+HP for a reason.

    It will have an 8-speed for a reason.

    It will grow in size for a reason.

    It will be better looking for a reason.

    I don't see a reason for giving the new car all of these attributes, and then not raising prices accordingly.

    This car is not being redesigned, it is being revolutionized!

    Toyota may be ignoring every other HELM (except Mercedes) on the market! They have made a killing with the LS, and they will price the Next LS so they will continue to. Toyota will win either way they go. :)

    But selling 40-50k LS a year cheapens the car, to a point. Everyone knows it's an incredible car, but it's not precious and few.

    I want Lexus to actually reduce volume sales by increasing prices, and not go to 350-400k sales a year. Pricing the LS too low is counterproductive.

    You get numbers, but lose respect. Pandering to value market is......pandering! :mad:

    How is Lexus growing and evolving? You can't just start making $150k cars. You have to grow and evolve into that.

    The LS is their best bridge to get where they want to go. If the 600hL is $100k, where does the LS460 stop? It would have to get to at least $85k!

    I want to see the LS460L priced at $70-85k, an the 600 from $90k-105k.

    DrFill
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    I'd say you are looking at 64-72K on the SWB, 74-82K on the LWB and 84-102K on the hybrid. You may still be able to get a 61-62K LS but it'll be a stripped car that likely will need a custom order. I don't see Lexus shipping over cars like that. In all cases a few specialized factory or dealer options may add 2-3K to each model variant. And I say they'll move 40-45K cars with the prices I noted and literally dominate the segment. The most LS cars sold since the late 90's were the 36K in 2002 and that came off a 22K figure the year before (when the 2001's started rolling in) and only 14K in the last 12 months of the model year 2000 car.
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    So you believe the LWB will start at near $75k (with a minimum of options found on lots)?

    I guess I believe the rumor that the LS will start a shade over $60, but the ones found on lots will start right around $65k, and the LWB will approach $75k with a Ultra Lux option Pkg.

    I think a 25-30k sales volume should be the sales target, and if it exceeds that, prices are too low, and need adjustment.

    DrFill
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Well, you have finally convinced me. Let's raise the price on the new LS to around $150K. That would make it a rare bird indeed. Then by this time next year we wouldn't have to worry about it as Lexus would be out of business!!

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Agressive pricing has been one of the reasons people tried the Lexus over the Benz and Bimmer. Then, they find out the price is lower, but the quality is better, and if they're not into "Ultimate Driving" so much, they stick around. I drove Lincolns happily for 16 years - but they don't make a large sedan that's acceptable anymore. A jump in price from a Lincoln to a Benz or Bimmer, attractive as they are, was tough to swallow. I had an S-500 on order, when I stumbled across Lexus, which I had not really considered before. They're not as pretty, but they are certainly as good, even better from a maintenance standpoint. Plus, after studying a bit, I found I really liked the mission of Lexus - they really do strive for perfection in the machine. For the $20 large, I found I could accept a little less beauty and driving fun (like Lincoln had much of that anyway?) for the awesome way these cars function, trouble free.

    I hope Lexus doesn't lose the shine of their perfection model. They should never put a car on the road that hasn't been tested to exhaustion first. IF they do, they'll become just like everyone else, only less.
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Like it or not, the LWB model, and the car in general, are nothing like the current car, and shouldn't be priced like it. It would only reinforce a class-down image that Lexus deserves to shake.

    If a buyer can't accept a $15k value over a comparable S550, those aren't the customers that Lexus needs. They just want somethin' for nothin'.

    Lexus can now sell the LS on size, features, looks, and power. A $25k lower price is no longer necessary! :mad:

    DrFill
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Only if it drives like the S-550 and 7, can they charge that premium, drfill. If it truly does, then you're right. But if it's still more quiet and competent than pretentious and exciting, I'm not sure you're right. One thing for sure, they got the looks going now....
  • ideleidele Member Posts: 200
    As I pointed out in message #2288 I am actually an investor in TM. Lexus has made substantial inroads against MB,BMW,Audi with their policy of offering substantially more value. I believe very strongly that should continue. The largest German weekly, Der Spiegel, gave the GS450h a strong writeup on its performance, fuel efficiency and ultra low emissions. So performance hybrids are recognized and accepted. As I mentioned in message #2288, the LS600h should be marketed aggressively in Europe and the home market Japan, even if that means drastically limiting USA supplies. Since I'm interested in purchasing one that isn't good for me personally but as a part owner of TM that's the policy I hope they follow
  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Member Posts: 359
    Toyota stockholder or not, your comments do not make any sense at all. Why must Lexus continue to stay the course on pricing as it has been in the past.

    Imagine some body telling you to carry on same business practices as you were 20 years ago. Your company will be wiped out!

    Luxury is in the mind and to capture the essence of luxury a price based exclusivity is a must. There is no such thing as value-Luxury. Its an oxymoron created by morons. There will never be a luxury brand offering value-luxury.

    Look at what happened to Acura. They completely destroyed their brand by not properly differentiating their TSX, TL and RL lines. They also went from bottom-up and not from top-down like Lexus did. And now they have trouble selling RL.

    RL is not much longer and wider than TL. TL already provides customers with an excellent package so why would they go to RL? This is what they call improper positioning.

    In the same manner if Lexus continues to price LS 460 at E-class prices, it will be psychologically damaging. Luxury buyers will buy Lexus by the thousands and yes the model will bring in profits, but the brand will suffer dramatically. Lexus will forever remain a value proposition in their mind.

    To become a true luxury brand lexus should shun value-pricing, cut-rate pricing and price the LS 460 at least as much as Audi A8 +/- 1000$ at most.

    LS 460 SWB = 67-68$

    LS 460 LWB: 71-72K$.

    The LS is not about lower costs and lower pricing. its about evolving the brand. If you feel onus is on germans to bring down their costs and price their cars lower then so be it.

    In the long run Lexus should maintain the technological edge and move from Audi to BMW pricing and then gun for the S-class itself.

    Remember, its meritocracy first and heritage after. No one cares who you were, but what you are today???
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    I don't understand. :confuse:

    Did someone say the LS doesn't ride well?

    It doesn't handle as well as the Germans, but ride is different, and generally regarded as better in the Lexus!

    I'm sure the new S550 has as good a ride quality as the LS. But I don't think people are buying the S becuase it has great handling.

    The 7 handles better, and sells far less.

    Hopefully the Next LS will find the medium between the 7's handling and the S' computer-controlled ride.

    Something tells me when Lexus asks current customers for ways to make the LS better, cat-like handling isn't front and center. It's competent, but won't excite.

    Hopefully they can court new, younger buyers with a more dynamic personality.

    DrFill
  • speedemoncwspeedemoncw Member Posts: 5
  • ideleidele Member Posts: 200
    "Luxury is in the mind" you state and also claim that my "comments do not make any sense at all"
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    It doesn't handle as well as the Germans, but ride is different, and generally regarded as better in the Lexus!

    I'm not sure what that all means exactly, but the German cars are generally well known to have better handling and performance dynamics than the Lexus. The Lexus LS is better known to provide a soft "comfy" ride, although after many hours the less-supportive softer seats have been reported by many to be less desireable than the more supportive seats typically found in the German vehicles. For typical use, it is generally a matter of preference.

    Have you driven an S-Class for yourself to understand the difference first hand?

    Regarding price policy . . . Lexus is implementing the perfect strategy by tiering the LS into a standard and upper bracket. It is important that the standard LS be less expensive than the German counterparts, as that creates the "value" that Lexus is known for and the customer base expects.

    As a vehicle significantly less expensive than the German counterparts, the LS shines as a terrific buy. Without that value, Mercedes would most likely be the marque to gain the most, IMO.

    The upper tier of the LS600hL will do very well because it will be unique, and I dare use the word "exclusive", IMO.

    :)

    TagMan
  • topspin628topspin628 Member Posts: 373
    Lexus made it's mark by offering more for less and I think it's too early in the game for them to abandon that strat. Audi is also using that strat and making a nice comeback in the US. Their A8, and A6 are priced less than the comparable BMW's and MB's that they compete with even though they offer more content and what is generally considered to be the best quality interior in the industry. I lease an LS430 and price was a definite part of my decision making process. If the S Class I wanted more was within a couple of hundred dollars per month of the Lexus, I would have gone with that.
    I also hope that Lexus improves on the driving dynamics but I'm not sure that they want to. Too much of their core audience is from the Caddy, Lincoln group who could be turned off to a car that offers more road feel and is a bit more sporty to drive. I wish they would at least offer an option for sport seats (firm and supportive) and a tighter steering and suspension.
    I could be wrong but if they price the LS similar to comparably equipped S Class and 7 series, I don't think that they'd be nearly as successful. And I don't think they will vary from their tried and true formula. It may be a bit early in the game for them to command the same premium in status and perceived image as BMW and MB. It's amazing that they've come as far as they have in such a short time.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    if they price the LS similar to comparably equipped S Class and 7 series, I don't think that they'd be nearly as successful. And I don't think they will vary from their tried and true formula

    That is exactly correct, my friend. A major component of the Lexus LS success story is the price advantage over the competition. Add to that a vehicle with highest reliability ratings and it appeals to the rational side of the brain. Never mind that the competition may be more attractive or drive with quicker response, or have other desireable features, as these other attributes become overshadowed by the "value" of the LS.

    Lexus has some of the best marketing strategy on the planet. You are right to mention that they would be foolish to change course. Remember, however, that as their models evolve, so will the marketing. An example of this is the LS600hL which will receive a new and exciting marketing approach, not seen on the regular LS. Also, the IS model is getting legitimate kudos for performance, and the Lexus marketing group will be tuning into that more as time goes by.

    Masterful. And value is key. And, if you stop and think about it, it is a great thing, because where on this planet do you get genuine value all that often any more?

    TagMan
  • topspin628topspin628 Member Posts: 373
    The question that begs to be asked (at least by me, anyway) is are they not able to achieve the driving dynamics of the Euros due to having to achieve a certain cost advantage or because they lack the know-how? It seems to me that it isn't for lack of funds or due to cost cutting. For example, is it more expensive to produce the BMW steering feel, the S Class ride or the firmer orthopedic seats? With all of the techno marvels in the LS, I would think that if they set their sights on a more dynamically exciting drive that they could achieve it. After all, I'm sure that they have dissected the S Class and 7 Series in their labs and I'm sure that some employees from MB and BMW must have jumped ship to work for Lexus. So is it money? Know how? Or maybe they just don't want to change from the "soft" side of the equation since its worked so well for them. I would love to see the engineers turned loose to launch a Lexus M or AMG division and have them introduce a variant of the LS in high performance guise at a price that is consistent with the Lexus philosophy of undercutting the competition. Even if it would sell in small numbers, I believe that it would produce a very good halo effect for the brand and continue to enhance their image.
    And they sure could use another product or two so how about a large coupe based on the LS to rival the CL and 6 series.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    The question that begs to be asked (at least by me, anyway) is are they not able to achieve the driving dynamics of the Euros due to having to achieve a certain cost advantage or because they lack the know-how?

    Both. While Toyota can be credited with performance know-how, they are not pioneers or leaders in the field. Particularly with regards to a performance sedan, which is what we are talking about here. BMW and Mercedes are much further ahead in the area of performance as is relates to a sedan vehicle.

    The second half of the answer is about the cost . . . and performance, especially as it is enhanced, comes at a cost. The initial engineering comes at a cost, and then the implementation of that engineering has additional costs associated with it. Consider the cost of the AMG or M variants. Of course, these are extreme examples, but they make the point. As performance is enhanced, a cost can generally be associated with it.

    Personally, I think that the typical LS buyer is not as concerned with enhanced performance. The standard ride of the LS is good enough for most LS buyers. It is, afterall, a luxury vehicle, and there are other vehicles out there for those that want the driving dynamics AND luxury all in the same car. The success of the LS's "soft" ride is testimony to that, IMO.

    TagMan
  • uvawahoouvawahoo Member Posts: 23
    It's funny, but a lot of people in these chat rooms talk about sporty drive, road feel, and overall driving dynamics. Now say Lexus sells 15,000 LS460s in the coming year. Of those 15,000, how many do you think were people who chatted on this site or other's like it? I guess my question is, are these desires for a sportier feel felt by most LS drivers, or are they just felt by the car enthusiasts who take the time to chat on different sites. If you look at demographics, the older generations (50+) are not as prevalent on these websites as the younger generation(20-40s). Now, the LS's target audience is definitely people in their 40s but mostly people in the 50+ range, considering those are the people who can spend 60-70K on a car.

    On a side note, my dad (50+), who drives a 3.5RL was forced to drive my 2004 TL, and said he couldn't stand the ride. He said he felt the road way too much, and preferred the comfort and loftier ride of the 3.5RL.

    So, the question comes down to, are these the people who Lexus is targeting w/ the LS? Are the people on these sites who are complaining about sportiness on an 80K car the actual target audience?

    In my opinion...I don't think so, but I could be wrong. It won't be the first time...
  • reality2reality2 Member Posts: 303
    They should. Lexus wishes it had the sales numbers and prestige globally as Audi. And the A8 doesn't cost less than a 7-Series or S-Class. Top line A8 tops at $150,000 with the top W12. No Lexus there. It not just about North America if Lexus wants to challenge the evil empire of the German HELMs.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    So, the question comes down to, are these the people who Lexus is targeting w/ the LS?

    Read my post 2306, last paragraph. I think the answer is pretty clear. Most LS buyers are quite content with the ride of the LS, and rightly so.

    Performance enthusiasts are a large group, however, but not the primary demographic target for the LS.

    TagMan
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    "Have you driven an S-Class for yourself to understand the difference first hand?"

    Actually yes, for 2 weeks. Then, I ordered one. But that was before I ran into the LS. After driving that, and noting that there were 13 defects in the new S-Class that needed fixing, and 0 in the Lexus, I cancelled the S and bought the LS the same day.

    I do freely admit, however, that the S-Class was more fun to drive, more comfortable, and more stylish, inside and out. The Navigation was awful though, and as I said, lots was wrong with the Demo I drove. Not impressive. I'll give up the little extra fun for the reliability and lower price.
  • topspin628topspin628 Member Posts: 373
    I agree that the people who buy an LS are either not as interested in performance, road feel, driving dynamics etc or, like me, traded those off against, value pricing and reliability. However, the people who do buy BMW, MB, Audi,etc are the ones who are interested and judging by their success, that is a large market as well. I am not sure if it makes sense for Lexus to try to grow by taking market share from the more performance oriented brands with a more performance oriented variant but I would love to see them take a shot at it. Also, as their core consumer ages they need to attract younger buyers who may have different values than the caddy, lincoln guys who grew up with those brands as icons. Today's 30 something guy never lusted after a caddy or Lincoln and may be more performance oriented. These guys are coming from WRX, Evos, etc and when they want to step up, their idea of a luxury car may be closer to a BMW than today's Lexus.
  • topspin628topspin628 Member Posts: 373
    After driving that, and noting that there were 13 defects in the new S-Class that needed fixing, and 0 in the Lexus, I cancelled the S and bought the LS the same day.

    I had a similar experience with the last gen S Class. I went for a test drive and just before we left the dealership, I tried to tilt the steering wheel down and it would not go. The salesman said that there was a problem with a fuse.
    Then the windows wouldn't operate properly. I couldn't believe that this was in an 80K car. That car drove so great and looked so good to me that I still almost pulled the trigger but then, like you, I drove the Lexus and my "brain" took over. That said, I think that cars are emotional purchases and in the end you should get the one that delivers more on that emotion since even if you have a few problems, the vast majority of the time you will be driving what you like and will enjoy it. I go back to my wife's BMW X5 which twice had electronic malfunctions that required it to be towed. Terrible right? But you know what? It's her favorite vehicle of all time. That's because for the other 99.99999% of the time, she loved the way it drove. With the LS, Lexus delivers astonishing reliability and quality but is somewhat devoid of emotional attachment. I've had mine for 2 years and I can't say anything bad about it. Nor can I rave about how enjoyable it is. It does what it says it will do and does it every time. It just does not "stir one's sole".
    Just my opinion.
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    With it's new look, greater size, greater power, new features, and new pricing, it seem Lexus' goal is to start to aggressively challenge German-intenders to find a better car, or a smarter buy.

    Lexus' demos should change significantly from now on, as this won't be mistaken for a "Big Toyota" anymore.

    This will be "The Best Lexus Ever"! :)

    The Germans will have a much tougher sell on their hands.

    DrFill
  • topspin628topspin628 Member Posts: 373
    The Germans will have a much tougher sell on their hands.

    Let's see if they can improve on the driving dynamics and depart a bit from their softer "American roots". It will be interesting.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    This will be "The Best Lexus Ever"!

    I'd like to believe it, Doc... but there are no reports of a test drive yet, and its only 6 weeks to release. What gives !!!! Is Lexus hiding something, or is there something to hide ??? Why is it that nobody can say categorically how the new LS drives ? Any ideas when Lexus will let the autorags have at the new LS ? For a change, I'd like to hear/read about the DRIVE not the features, the final specs on the car, the full options list, and the price (final).
  • uvawahoouvawahoo Member Posts: 23
    I know about 50 people who drive an S-Class, and not one of them bought it because it was a better ride than the LS. Each and everyone of them bought it because it was a Mercedes, and they wanted to own a $100,000 car. Funny thing is, they all used to own an LS before, and moved up as they were financially able to. To them, Audi & BMW are cars their kids drive(A4 & 3series), not something worth spending 100k on. They are looking for the status that an S-Class brings.

    I think the people who are spending $100k on a BMW and Audi are perhaps the only group that really care about performance. Mercedes is more for the name, and the Lexus LS is for a mixture of name, quality, and value. Lexus is building its name, and Mercedes has been slipping. With all the people complaining about their controls and their numerous problems, Lexus has a shot to be a powerhouse brand! But, everybody who thinks the LS is hurting b/c of it's performance are not reading the right signals..

    ON the price side: The only way Lexus will be able to dramatically increase the price is to do it slowly and over a long period of time. Also, by offering more options (like the first class seating in the back), and perhaps even a V-10 or V-12 engine. I think the bottom line is that the new LS is better looking than the last one, and they just need to aim for a bit more "sexy" instead of "stodgy" when they do their designs.
  • topspin628topspin628 Member Posts: 373
    S-CLASS=Nothing to do w/ Performance...All in the Name

    Well, I have to disagree. No question that the name and prestige of MB are part of the equation but it's not the whole thing by a long shot. I know several people who have gone the other way. That is, they have been devoted MB S drivers for years and finally got fed up with the problems of the last gen S Class. They moved to Lexus for a trouble free experience. That said, if the MB was as reliable, I think they would have been very happy to stay at MB because of things like the ride, driving dynamics, seat comfort, safety, solid feel of the car and of course prestige. I drove both before I decided and to me the S Class did drive better (for whatever you think it's worth, CR said that the last S was the best riding car they ever tested). The LS is a very traditional American riding car and there is a vast difference between that and the European type ride. I like my LS but if I were to go on a 4-5 hour drive, I would prefer the seats and the feel of control that an MB or BMW imparts. Remember, the status of the MB came about because of better quality at that time. When American cars were falling apart after 25K miles, the MB's were cruising around like tanks with 100K miles (as long as they were serviced) and on top of that they were very safe and solid, wouldn't rust out etc.. Prestige didn't just "happen" it was earned.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    "Have you driven an S-Class for yourself to understand the difference first hand?"

    Actually yes, for 2 weeks. Then, I ordered one. But that was before I ran into the LS. After driving that, and noting that there were 13 defects in the new S-Class that needed fixing, and 0 in the Lexus, I cancelled the S and bought the LS the same day.

    I do freely admit, however, that the S-Class was more fun to drive, more comfortable, and more stylish, inside and out.

    OUCH! Your demo experience was shameful that a dealership would even permit so many things to be wrong with ANY demo. Pitiful, at the least, but I do not believe that it was completely representative of the more typical scenario that most folks would have experienced.

    And, in spite of the quality issues that plagued that demo, it is admireable of you to indicate that "the S-Class was more fun to drive, more comfortable, and more stylish, inside and out."

    TagMan
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Excellent post ! I couldn't agree more.

    The LS competes really only against the S. BMW and Audi are too few and far between for Lexus to really get worked up about. If you consider the prestige of the S, that's what the LS aims for... And it should be incremental and that is the way the LS has gone about its business.

    Now comes the new LS series of sedans. This is a defining moment for Lexus. You may sometimes get a second chance to outdo your opponent, and when you do, grab it and don't let go. If the LS460/600hL fails to make a dent in the prestige quotient of the S-class, then the LS would have a long road to climb. Hopefully, Lexus will combine the beauty, features, and price of the new LS with a higher prestige and help lift the entire Lexus line with this new LS series. Ultimately, Lexus will need some sport-tuning for more "performance" in its cars to gain more traction and higher recognition among car fans. The future rests on the younger generation, and you must attract and keep them, and having a sporty look and feel and perspective will truly help in that direction.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Hey, oac - I believe that the GS was the vehicle originally thought to point to the younger set. It was always marketed with a little more performance and younger styling in mind, not to mention its lower price tag. The LS is just not going to appeal to that younger crowd all that much.

    The higher tier of the upcoming LS600hL will boost the prestige factor a bit, IMO, since that particular vehicle will be so exclusive.

    In the final analysis, I expect the target audience for the LS to be about the same as it always has been, with exception of the LS600hL, which will successfully fish in the waters of the even more affluent.

    Sportiness and performance will most likely be delegated to the other Lexus lines, particularly the GS and IS, with exception of the HP ratings of the LS600hL, and the upcoming rumored "super-sedan".

    :)

    TagMan
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    I believe that the GS was the vehicle originally thought to point to the younger set...

    True. However, I am refering to the LS as Lexus' benchmark sedan, and the brand's premium car. The LS defined the Lexus line of products back in 1989, and continues the fine tradition of leading the way for other Lexus products today. The new 2007/2008 LS series would be required to do the same - lift the boat of its siblings - and enhance the brand going into the future. Add some sort of performance-enhancement to these LS cars and you create another level of interest among those looking at the German brands. Associating performance to the luxury the LS provides will be a boost for establishing a younger, more upscale, uppity folks looking for a premium sedan that's got it all. Lexus will do well to look to the younger generation if its to remain a leader going into the future.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I agree that adding improved driving dynamics to the LS would be a welcome evolution of the vehicle.

    The market demographics, would likely not change all that much, however. Even with the German cars, which are better known for improved performance characteristics, the demographics are still very similar.

    It seems that we agree that the benefit of enhancing the performance in the LS would be to grab more of the market share from those seeking German cars. However, that would only apply to those consumers interested in German cars for those performance characteristics, because it needs to be clear here that many, if not most, of those looking to the German cars, are actually just looking at the luxury, style, and prestige factors more often than the performance factors. The performance attributes are a plus to those German marques that some are interested in, but many are not.

    If most luxury buyers were interested in enhanced handling characteristics, then the LS would not sell so well, but the proof here is that the LS does sell very well, and thus the primary needs of many luxury buyers are fulfilled with the LS.

    TagMan
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Precisely~! Couldn't agree more on your post of your experience.

    I do suspect that LExus will get ever closer to both BMW and Mercedes, probably Mercedes with the LS than ever before with this new version. The style is a hybrid between the S-Class nose and the 7 Series butt, with a Toyota smooth-over, but it's attractive. It'll probably drive more that way as well. Perhaps the perfect blend for a guy like me, who savors dependability and low maintenance costs.
  • topspin628topspin628 Member Posts: 373
    If most luxury buyers were interested in enhanced handling characteristics, then the LS would not sell so well, but the proof here is that the LS does sell very well, and thus the primary needs of many luxury buyers are fulfilled with
    Let's remember how the LS was launched and one of the main reasons it succeeded. They under cut the competition significantly. My memory may be a bit off on this but it seems to me that in 89-90 when it was launched, an LS was about 35K and I'm thinking that a comparable S class was about 50K. So someone had to see about 40% more in handling, prestige etc to justify the Benz. If price were no object then the Benz would win for most. As for now, I think that it's true that most people don't buy a lux car strictly for handling and driving dynamics but once you've enjoyed that and have become used to that type of driving, it may be a bit harder to switch to the soft "american" ride. With a huge price difference and the many problems MB has had re the quality, that "trade off" is easier and hence the great success of Lexus. If MB improves it's quality and if Lexus doesn't maintain the price differential, I think that MB will be back in a big way. The LS still needs to be a "value play" in my estimation or they need to close the gap on the driving experience. I hope they go with both and if so I'd be happy to test drive the new LS. If not, I think that my next ride after my LS lease is over will be a Euro car, MB, BMW or maybe even Audi.
  • atlas7atlas7 Member Posts: 126
    AUDI SCHMAUDI, Lexus couldn't care less about AUDI...AUDI is a distant third of the German Cars, behind MB & BMW...So who cares about the $150,000 Audi? Nothing unique about it that the other Germans don't have and Lexus Has the LS600HL.

    Yes, I have been to Europe and I see mostly tiny little
    "econo" audis, not the BIG ones...I couldn't care less about Europe, I just care about the car I will buy.
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