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http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/news/06/0919.html
There you have it folks, ~$62-64K starting price in Japan. If anything, it should be at, or slightly cheaper in the US, starting price that is.... But like Len correctly opined above, don't expect to see any $62K LS460 here anytime soon, unless by special order... and even then, gotta be a dealer willing to do it.
I suppose a $62K starting price is quite good. Most would price out in the $68K for SWB and $74K for LWB, still a healthy price advantage over the German competitors. At these prices, one can speculate that the 600hL may range from the mid $80s to the mid-$90s. Not bad at all....
LWB: $69,995
It'd Still be less than a 7 (By almost $6,000!), and will cover the heightened nature of the LS' progression. And will raise the stature of the brand, plus give the GS room to move up in the future, if need be.
If "My Humps" can sell 30k plus at $90k, the LS can sell 40k+ at $65k and up!
Problem. Solution.
DrFill
BTW - notice that prices were released on first day of sale. Two ways to look at this. 1. We have to wait till first day of sale (likely version) or 2. Now that they've released the Japanese price data they will release the US price data shortly (call this the hopeful version).
http://www.lexus.jp
Based on my business activities btw Japan and the US, typical pricing for Japan is almost always HIGHER than in the US for the same product. So I am inclined to believe that these prices are really close to the US prices.
There you go . . . doing what I like best about you!
Good perspective and good thinking.
TagMan
BTW - I caught up on some reading on the HELM board. Got up to the point where someone posted a BMW annual report. That was a pretty bad financial performance if you look at the figures over time closely. I'd grade it a d-. But that's a story for another board at another time.
$76,000 for:
2007 LS460 Package 2
RU – Comfort Plus Package: 4-spoke, wood steering heater steering wheel
Rear window (auto) sun shade
Front and rear seat air conditioner
Slide MID control with return rear seat adjuster
NL – Navigation and Mark Levinson System
PA – Clearance and back soner
PP – Auto and easy closer door, power trunk
and
$85,000 for:
2007 LS460L Package 1
AS – Air Suspension w/VGRS
LL – Luxury package : slide MID control with return rear seat adjuster
Semi Aniline seat material
Front and rear seat air conditioner
LR – Rear seat upgrade package : Rear door and rear window auto sun shade
Rear air conditioner with cooler
MH – Mark Levison DVD changer with HDD
MZ - Lexus Link
PI – Advanced parking guidance system
PS – Pre collision System
PA – Clearance and back soner
I am delivering a couple of football tickets to him this afternoon. I will let everyone know if there is anything new on LS460L or the LS600hL.
My prediction, which was made all the way back on April 14th, of an LS600hL MSRP of $91,350 is still hanging in the air I guess. I wonder how close I will come.
Drumroll please.
TagMan
At 90K the LS600HL is in my garage no questions asked. I'm still worried a lot of other people will feel the same way.
Some additional data I got - My dealer has more than 200 orders of the LS460 so far (that's a 3 month supply already gone), 95 are LWB (that's greater than his 3 month supply) and most of them are fully loaded. It appears Lexus is not going to have any problems selling $85k cars. He tells me that northeast dealers are already requesting increased supply of the car from Lexus and they want them in LWB trim. This car is not going to be easy to get in my neck of the woods and it's certainly not going to be discounted anytime soon.
Interesting because that number of LWB orders, if representative of other areas as well, indicates that the LWB version will be a much greater percentage than Lexus had planned for.
However, this can work for Lexus if they are careful to maintain a moderate, but not too ultra tight, demand for the LWB, as it will then move the price that the LS460L can command northward slightly, but without horrendous markups which ultimately when the initial demand wears off would backfire.
So . . . moderate demand over supply is healthy, but too much under-supply is not good, IMO.
The LS600hL will initially be a hard-to-get vehicle. Those fortunate enough to be on the early list will benefit. Hopefully there will not be too much predatory markups, but there are always those dealers that are greedy.
In California it is mixed. We have numerous dealers that sell high-demand vehicles at MSRP, while there are others that will price gouge to any level the market will bear.
Good luck with your LS600hL. I hope its MSRP is comfortable enough for you and that you are able to acquire it from an ethical dealer.
Those that will wait patiently until next spring and summer for the LS460's should do much better from a price standpoint, as the initial tidal wave of demand will start to subside by then, IMO.
TagMan
I would personally like to see a $90k starting price, and around $100k loaded (with vinyl roof, gold-plated hub caps, and the revolving 8-track player!).
That would be 2 Sweet! :shades:
Mercedes will NOT sell 30k S-class next year!
Will barely sell 25k.
DrFill
Help me if I get a 600hL without Armor All on the tires!
Just thinking about it really frost my wienie!
:mad:
DrFill
You already know that I'm saying $91,350 on the LS600hL . . . so you'll be happy if I hit the bullseye, or even come close.
Don't forget that at the proper moment, MB has the S450 up its sleeve as well as the terrific BlueTec. It's MUCH too early to count them out. The initial surge in LS sales will reverberate with strength throughout the HELM arena, no doubt, but then after that, sales will be more balanced then it would seem the good Doc might be suggesting, IMHO.
TagMan
The upcoming diesel market will undoubtedly catch Toyota a little off guard, IMO, whether or not they have a deal with BMW.
The German marques themselves will be the initial winners with the diesel vehicles, IMO, particularly at the high end. Depending upon unpredictable world political events and economic factors, diesels have the potential to be very huge here for the first time in history.
It could be like a diesel tidal wave from Europe. Give it only another two years to watch this start to play itself out. Then we'll start to know.
Of course it would be foolish to rule the Japanese out entirely on this , but they may in fact need to play catch-up when it comes to the diesel frontier.
One thing for sure . . .it is going to get mighty interesting indeed.
TagMan
I would consider 30k+ sales of the $90k S550 a "market imbalance".
The LS will rectify that imbalance, and sell close to 40k in 2007
The S450, when it comes available will do more damage to the XJ8 and the aging 750i than to the LS.
I believe it is "common knowledge" at this point that the LS is better than a cut-rate S-Class. I don't think Lexus is worrying about the S450. Doubt they ever have.
DrFill
Well, it is so far, but even recently the percentage gain is higher than hybrids, and there is large momentum. True, the falling gas prices will relax the consuming public's fuel tensions, but the recent hikes were a big pill to swallow, and many will not forget so easily.
Additionally, some manufacturers have already pulled the stops out and will be marketing diesels, so there will be increased exposure and marketing to contend with.
Further, the current price of fuel may seem low now, but that is only in contrast to the sky-rocketed prices just prior to this recent easing of prices. It wasn't long ago that even $2/gal seemed too high for many folks. Now the perspective is that it's cheap?
Gasoline will get expensive again, anyway, as it always does. The world scene will never be stable for oil, and there are too many factors to support oil going higher again at some point in the not-too-distant future.
Diesels are coming, and they will sell well, IMO. I don't expect them to ever be a huge share of the market, but I suspect that they will be more than a tiny player over this next decade.
After that, who knows? Hydrogen seems to be the big buzz word, and already there are strong indications that hydrogen will be the next fuel for the next generation.
TagMan
First lets review: the new 4.6L has 380hp/363Ibft (Japan specs out to 385hp/369Ibft)
According to the analysis the guy presented:
@ 2000rpm, the motor puts out 116hp/310Ibft
@ 3000rpm, the motor puts out 197hp/340Ibft
@ 4000rpm, the motor puts out 285hp/363Ibft (peak torque)
@ 6400rpm (peak hp), the output is at 380-385hp/310Ibft
Meaning, even at its peak hp output, the car still has tremendous torque.... you'd expect the torque to decline sharply past its peak torque band...
So why are the auto rags and others around here on Edmund's claiming this car has no low-end grunt ??? Wanna stack this torque/hp curves against its German competitors to see ???
In the medium term, diesel-electric hybrid is going to be a big deal, imho.
Indeed. Please put up the charts of the German competitors side by side if you can dig them up. I wish all brochures would have them.
The LS460 power profile is mediocre, there's nothing special about it and the alleged lack of low-end grunt could still be compromised by gearing and shift time in spite of the eight speeds. I wouldn't be concerned though. The car is supposed to have more acceleration than the LS430 and this is more than adequate.
That's the problem.... they are nowhere to be found... We know how powerful these German machines are, yet it is so hard to find any real data on them. If YOU can find anything, please post. I cannot find anything, and I have tried...
The LS460 power profile is mediocre, there's nothing special about it and the alleged lack of low-end grunt could still be compromised by gearing and shift time in spite of the eight speeds...
I thought the Lexus engineer mentioned that the first 2 gears were set so close for sporty shifting... so that the car can get up pretty quick. The mid-range gears 3-6 are not as closely set, while 7&8 are for cruising. In addition, the gearing is also set to maximize MPG.
I agree with you, oac, that based upon most initial information, the tranny and engine are very well-mated to each other, and will likely provide the best result that the engine can offer.
The engine undoubtedly needs to, and does so due to the low initial ratios in the first two gears, increase rpms quickly to achieve a quick sprint out of the gate. This is all by design to maximize what the engine can deliver, and as well, compensate for what it can't. Well done, IMO.
If there were more low-end torque, the fuel economy would be even greater, however, because the engine would have been able to deliver its power at lower rpm's and therefore an even higher 8th gear ratio.
All in all, what is commendable, IMO, is the way the tranny and the engine are so intentionally and carefully paired to each other.
TagMan
Keep up the good work!
Keep up the good work!
Wow! I certainly appreciate your compliment, but I will risk being outspoken enough here to let you know that I give kudos to the Doc, nvbanker, and the others that have continued to post their important and valuable opinions on the HELM board.
The HELM board is only improved by including those different views, which means the continued participation by those that appreciate Lexus vehicles. After all, the LS is a HELM and deserves to have its spokespersons, not a boycott, which I hope will end very soon.
But putting that aside, I truly thank you (and nvbanker), my friend.
TagMan
I always monitor the HELM board, and step in when I need to step in.
Lexus seems more than ready to produce more HELM vehicles in the next few years, so hopefully there will be more meaningful discussions, and less biased rhetoric, to digest.
Lexus is the one who upset the applecart.
That will leave some people "upset". :mad:
DrFill
Your return will put more fun back into the equation, IMO.
If something repulsive shows up, ignore it.
See you there.
TagMan
Good decision.
I posted the LS460 torque right here, which syswei kindly reposted for comments on HELM. And guess what... you read a post which starts off this way: "I don't think he understands how torque is generated - Merc1" and you say to yourself... never again would I join that kinda board. Its all personal with some of the folks out there...
My original post described the LS460 torque curve versus some of the reviews we have read. This car's peak torque is 363Ib-ft @ 6400rpm, however, 80% of that torque is available at b/w 2800-4000rpm. OTOH, 100% of the S550's 391Ib-ft of torque is available in the same rpm range. That's a fair point to make, and also accurate as these cars are currently configured. And that could be made as simply without a retort to personal attack.
With such sentiments, don't expect me on HELM anytime soon, if ever.
Well, setting them close doesn’t say much. The question I would ask him is if they are set close, what’s the reason for the extra gear to begin with?
It’s hard to get a handle on gearing, that is, understand what ultimate effect it has on torque at the wheels which really is the bottom line. I think optimal gearing of the drivetrain is the most elusive part of understanding the performance of a car. Regardless of the transmission, if they put in a less-than-optimal final drive ratio and there goes your torque. It would be nice to compare drivetrains but there are so-o many variables that preclude this when considering varieties of gear ratios, shift speed, and engine torque at any given RPM and of course weight.
Yes, he might have alluded to “sporty shifting” this but I neither believe or disbelieve it. I think it is quite possible this could be a marketing ploy, specious, wanting to impress by being the first to have 8 speeds. I am inclined to disbelieve it and my reason is this: gearing isn’t rocket science and it is curious how we are seeing 8 gears so late in automotive history. Why not sooner and why not in racing? Although low gearing helps acceleration, I’m not so sure an EXTRA low gear lops off acceleration time. Too bad identical cars can’t be compared with different transmissions as the only variable.
Anyway, I am not trying to discredit the 8-speed transmission per se, but my intuition tells me to question it. I suspect it of being frivolous. The desire to stand out, to develop unique marketing benefits is just too compelling among all auto manufacturers, especially with luxury cars, and it is quite easy to realize how the title of this post is serious sizzle in the steak, apt to get luscious attention, marketing mileage.