Lexus LS 460/LS 460L Styling Impressions

nexuslexus · August 2005

I had thought of that before, but the problem is that it is not uncommon for there to be 6-12 inches of snow, and even my FWD car has trouble in that (not my AWD ones though).

lexusguy · August 2005

I've used both the Blizzaks and Alpins on my LS. They do ok, but only if you have them on all four wheels. When I say "ok" I mean passable, but only in what I would consider "light" snow days in southern PA. Anything remotely heavy, I take my wife's AWD RX. What you get with AWD is the ability to really use A\S tires all year round. An AWD vehicle with snow tires mounted will blow anything else away.

I dont consider AWD on the LS to be a critical feature, because I have the RX300 to fall back on. However, if Lexus offered it, I would definitely buy.

nexuslexus · August 2005

I consider AWD critical on my next car. This past year, I faced an emergency situation where my vehicle, a FWD car, could not get out onto the main road because of the snow. I ended up having to not go to work, as my wife needed to use her AWD vehicle.

antlers1 · August 2005

awd is essential here in north central region.

lexusguy · August 2005

This is why I think the RWD GS450h is such a mistake. It would give them the opportunity to offer a powerful AWD car for those that want something comparable to a V8. As of right now, if 245hp isnt good enough for you, Lexus has nothing to offer, but they will have two RWD GS cars with near identical power and acceleration. Whats the point of that?

billsoter · August 2005

I'm looking forward to the new LS. I couldn't imagine buying anything else. However, with my low mileage 2003 LS I would need a compelling reason to trade. AWD would probably be the only feature that would be sufficiently compelling.

syswei · August 2005

I think we can be pretty safe in assuming that at least one version of the LS will have AWD. Both of the recent "all new" Lexus sedans, the GS and IS, have AWD, though it is limited to exactly one version. I think that if they put it on only 1 version of the LS, it is likely to be toward the lower end of the product line, where more of the unit volume is. Which could mean, as someone suggested, the LS460.

oac · August 2005

You do make an excellent point, LG. Hopefully someone from Corporate is reading this.

oac · August 2005

There will be an AWD LS in 2007, as Lexus has promised to deliver on this across all their new entrants - IS, GS, and LS. So expect an LS460 AWD by Fall of 2006.

jrock65 · August 2005

I'm sure that the 2007 LS will be a significant improvement, but I think that market share will go down, mainly because of the increase in price. Also, the new S class is coming out at the same time.

The main reason that the LS is selling 2500 LS's per month right now is because you can pick one up for $52k to $55k.

I think that the new LS will sell about 22,000 to 24,000 per year, which should still be more than the S or the 7.

syswei · August 2005

Market share is sure to decline during the period when the new S is on sale and the new LS isn't. But remember that the S is reportedly going to go up significantly in price too. And that the LS will offer a better car than the previous generation, enough so to hopefully offset the price increase. So I don't think it is at all clear that the LS will lose share. With the benefit of a hybrid version, imho they'll gain share. BMW is likely to lose out until they come out with a new model.

nexuslexus · August 2005

I hope so. Now the issue would become, when would the AWD variant be released? With the non AWD versions? And when will the normal versions be released. Do you believe there is truth to the rumor of a early 2006 (say march like the GS) release of the LS?

mikeroch · August 2005

Thanks all for the usefull info - it appears that AWD will indeed be available on the new LS (I hope). Living in a snowy climate, and based on some of the comments on this board regarding driving the car in bad weather, etc., I think it will be a vital option. (The lack of AWD was the only thing stopping my wife and I from picking up a new '05 fully "ultra premium" loaded LS right off the showroom floor recently (plus the probable huge depreciation hit which would occur given the brand new redesign coming out next year...)).

(I used to drive a Mustang (of course not the same as the LS), it was horrible in winter).

Thanks again!!

lexusguy · August 2005

I dont think I would recommend buying an LS right now anyway, even if it did have AWD. The changes to the LS since the end of the LS400 run ('98-00) have been pretty evolutionary, especially on the inside. Lexus really didnt start getting creative with their interiors until the '04 RX. I think the new car is going to be amazing, both inside and out, as it is the quintessential Lexus and the symbol of the brand. Similar to the Jaguar XK, the new one is going to be such a massive leap foward that buying an '05 or '06 should be criminal.

98 LS400:

'03 LS430:

ljflx · August 2005

That's w/o nav; the nav makes it even more beautiful and luxurious looking. I'd also say the grander interior designs commenced with the 2001 LS430 not the 04 RX.

lexusguy · August 2005

I dont know about that. They certainly added more wood than before, but the basic design is the same as it has always been since '90. The '01 LS started a trend towards much more and much glossier woods, and slighty more fluid, curvy designs than before, which continued with the '02 ES and SC. I think the SC is their classiest, most luxurious interior to date, but the '04 RX is significantly more modern and more interesting looking than any of these previous designs. What I'm expecting for the '07 LS is the same direction that started with the RX and then developed in the GS and IS, elegant splashes of wood instead of long, old style strips, and perhaps aluminum for the center stack. I hope that the NAV screen is seperate from the temperature and stereo controls so that it can be covered up as in the A8 or SC430. All three of my cars have NAV screens, and I dont think there's anything particularly beautiful or luxurious about them.

nexuslexus · August 2005

I have never actually noticed how similar the vehicles looked. I think that a good example of an interior revolution would be the newset E-class vs. the older one.

In terms of Navigations: I also have navs on all my cars, and I would have to agree that they arent elegent. While they add substance to the center stack, it would be perferable if a wood peice could slide over them, ala the rolls royce or for example the pictures that can slide down over plasma tv systems.

jerry5505 · August 2005

They say snow tires help. I know I got stuck in the snow last year with my LS430.
Still don't have snow tires.

lexusguy · August 2005

The ES300 also stayed pretty much exactly the same inside from '93 up through '01. Frankly, all Japanese interiors were kinda similar in those days - tan leather, brown vinyl, red wood or faux wood in the middle. Not much imagination.

"it would be perferable if a wood peice could slide over them, ala the rolls royce or for example the pictures that can slide down over plasma tv systems."

Thats why I like the SC430 interior so much, there's a wood cover for the NAV screen and the stereo, in a car thats actually affordable. Unfortunately no other Lexus to date has anything like it, but it would be nice if the LS had at least some kind of screen cover.

There was a recent trend in high-end preamps to have NAV style LCD screens as displays instead of small, traditional monochrome displays, and I thought they were tacky looking. Fortunately the trend seems like its over. Example:

My Parasound Halo C2:

Parasound Halo C1 with expensive, cheesy screen:

merc1 · August 2005

I don't think I've ever seen a LS model without a nav screen. I thought they were standard. I know I've never seen a 2001+ LS430 without one. Looks very different without it.

M

syswei · August 2005

From today's WSJ: "Toyota Motor Corp.'s Lexus brand is going even higher. It is working on an eight-speed automatic transmission, industry executives say."

Not a big deal, imho. But the first mention I've seen from a reliable source.

lexusguy · August 2005

Actually Nav was pretty unusual in the '98-00 LS. It was an option, but I've only seen a few equiped with the first gen Nav. In the LS430 yes, its usually there, but it is still optional. Currently, the only Lexus standard with Nav is the SC430, like the RL, it comes with everything.

nexuslexus · August 2005

I may be wrong, but imo, though nav is officially optional, Lexus is not making any of their cars without it (for example, on the toyota sienna, though both DVD and NAV are sep. options, you can't get the nav without the DVD)

ljflx · August 2005

Plenty of ES,RX and some GX and GS (in the past, not sure about 2006) lack nav as does the premium edition of the LS. Nav has always been an option except on the LX470 recently where it was made standard. It's always been standard on the SC.

Merc - thats why you can't go by those base prices you see, Here's the usual guidelines:

Base car - which doesn't exist - $56K
Premium - this adds sunroof and other stuff - $58K (this is really the base car)
Nav/Mark Levinson + some other things - $62K
Custom lux - $64-65K depending on leather
Ultra - $70-71K depending on leather.

Pre-safe collision system can be added on to any trim package but I forgot the price of it. It was just coming out when I took my car in April 2004. Most LS430's are in the 62-65K range but they do sell about 12K ultras a year. They'd probably sell more but they don't make enough. I'd have taken an ultra on my last go round but every one that was due in for the following two months was already sold.

lexusguy · August 2005

Nav is optional on the new GS, but I have yet to see any cars without it. Do you have any idea what it looks like without? I'm curious if it still has a basic screen as in the old RX, or if there's a totally different head unit as in the ES and LS.

nexuslexus · August 2005

I went to test drive a GS, and it didn't have a nav. It looks exactly the same as the one with the nav, except the display doesn't have a navigation system, it just controls the climate and radio and such (the screen is exactly the same, colors and everything).

lexusguy · August 2005

Ah I see. I figured Lexus would eventually start doing that, as its definitely a lot more cost effective than having to offer two different head units. I guess that means that the '04-'10 RX330 will probably be the last Lexus that is available screenless.

mikeroch · August 2005

Personally, I am hoping for more, rather than less, wood in the '07. The wood and leather in this car are georgeous now and hopefully even better in '07. Also, I love the look of the Nav (some wood surrounding that would be a good place to add some!!).

lexusguy · August 2005

Lexus knows how important the 2007 LS is. There's no way they'll let us down with the interior.

navigator89 · August 2005

Lexus never let's anyone down with interiors. That's one thing I believe Lexus has nailed better than any other car company. That, as well as awesome reliability and quietness.

Audi does nice interiors too but their reliability isn't up to par with Lexus.

Anyway, in Car and Driver I saw a picture of the new LS without any covering. It looks great. I just C&D would post those pictures on the net. It said the new hybrid engine would offer V6 mileage with V12 performance. That's good, because Lexus needs a V12 to compete with Germany's finest.

lexusguy · August 2005

Is this the September issue you're talking about? All I've seen in C&D thus far is a cg "guesstimate" with Scion tC headlights.

Lexus interiors have always been very good, but until recently they've lacked the harmonious blend of luxury and technology that is the Audi signature, the best examples (imo) of which were the last A6 and the current A8. I think only with the new GS and IS has Lexus finally reached that level of setting the bar in interiors.

nexuslexus · August 2005

imo, I am not impressed with the new GS interior as such, though I am impressed with its features. In fact, I am not impressed with the GS as a whole (it was rather a dissapointment). I hope that this does not reflect what the LS will be, and I certainly don't believe it will, because I wasn't impressed with the first GS either.

I think that the IS is much more beautiful than the GS.

nexuslexus · August 2005

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Anybody seen these pictures before? What are they?

k_mitsui · August 2005

Hello all
Kevin and I are planning to provide post new updates regarding the new LS sedan and we hope that all of your concerns would be answered as much as possible (especially the discussion on whether the new LS sedan would going to have 8 or 7 speed transmission). Furthermore, Kevin would also post some interesting information regarding the LF-A sport sedan that you might interested (such as whether or not this sedan would going bear a name of ZF The ultimate formula sedan as been rumored in my homeland). I believe he would also going to provide some background information regarding the Century sedan that he has been working on and would explain how this new sedan would going to become a distinct Ultra-Luxury brand for Toyota, just like Mercedes have for their Maybach brand. Finally he would probably (if he has time) would discuss the problems you are concern regarding the IS sedan and might also give you some background info regarding the two new hatchback sedans that you might not aware, but already proposed recently by the research board at Toyota.
Before I go, I will now just very briefly going to say about what I have know so far about the transmission issue since there already some intense arguments in the forum.
- I can confirm that Toyota was cooperating with a transmission company to develop a new CVT system. However (but I cannot confirm it) that this new CVT system would ONLY going to first implanted on the LS hybrid sedan before it would make its way to other LS models during its mid-year model refresh.
- For now, its suggested that the new LS gas powered sedan would first going to share the new 7 speed transmission with the Crown Majestia and Royal sedan and its recently approved by the management to go ahead with the upgrade on both the Majestia and Royal sedans during its mid-model refresh.
Anyways, I should not further discuss this issue further since Kevin would know much more about the transmission issue than I am. Therefore I would going to leave this topic for him to discuss for next week.
Ken Mitsui

merc1 · August 2005

Merc - thats why you can't go by those base prices you see, Here's the usual guidelines:

Yeah I know, most of them I've seen are in the 62-65K range, still though doesn't change my point on the other board.

Nobody sells any base luxury cars anymore, which make me wonder why don't just make the most popular options standard, or at least some of them.

M

merc1 · August 2005

Not sure it makes me want to puke, but it does look to be built miles better than the current S-Class.

M

lexusguy · August 2005

Yes, thats Lexus testing the '07 platform under a current LS430 body. Jaguar did the exact same thing when first testing the 2007 XK. It was an XJ sedan body, with the rear two doors cut off. Very strange looking.

oac · August 2005

Maybe you guys failed to read Ken's post above. WoW !!! More juicy stuff coming next week on the '07 LS. Imagine a CVT tranny on the next LS. Imagine it mated to an 8-speed cog. Imagine two new hatchback sedans coming !!! Anyone heard about hatchbacks from Lexus ????

Cannot wait for Kevin's post next week.... Please be quick and let us hear what's going on with the LS development.... Would we see the first prototype at the October Tokyo event ??? Just say, YES, Kevin....

lexusguy · August 2005

A CVT would be very interesting, as far as I know nobody has used one in this kind of application before. The hatchback was a little surprising to hear, as previously Lexus has said that they werent going to do another Sportcross, and thus far there hasnt even been rumors about one in the auto mags.

syswei · August 2005

Ken and Kevin,

I would like to see Lexus do a 7+ passenger vehicle that gets better mileage than a GX or LX. Maybe something along the lines of the Mercedes R-class, but with an optional seating configuration for 7, and based on the Sienna.

dc661 · August 2005

An update from Automotive News regarding 2007 LS:

"Lexus executives say the fall of 2006 will be like 1989, when Lexus and the LS were launched in the US. They are confident that the redesigned 2007 LS 460 flagship will once again take the luxury segment by storm."

They also confirm:
7 speed transmission
AWD will be an option
Hybrid will arrive in 2008 model year (power of 6-liter engine with V6 economy)
Long wheel base version

Can't wait for the fall of '06!

lexusguy · August 2005

I think Lexus will wait a bit to see if there's actually a market for the R-class and the upcoming BMW competitor before jumping in themselves. The R-class is a huge and hugely expensive vehicle that thusfar seems to have gotten largely mediocre reviews. The Pacifica seems to be doing alright for itself now, but I'm just not sure that people are going to pay $60K+ for a luxury version. Frankly I'm a little surprised that BMW rushed so quickly to come up with a competing model. I guess they feel that they must compete in every segment that M-B has a model now, but a 200"+ long, tall, ungainly vehicle that is essentially a minivan seems very un-BMW.

dc661 · August 2005

Lexus has built the VX concept vehicle based on the GS platform. It's not as big as the R-class but it will have 3 rows. Look for it in early 2007.

As for a 7 passenger vehicle with better mileage than the GX or LX, I don't think that will happen until the hybrids start arriving.

lexusguy · August 2005

I think the VX is related to the Toyota FT-SX concept that will become the next Highlander.

cyclone4 · August 2005

From everything we read, it appears that the 2007 LS460 will be a technological marvel. In fact, I have been thinking that I will be trading in my 2004 LS430 for this new awesome machine for a while now. However, there is one thing that is really haunting me these days. I am of the opinion that with gas prices continuing to sky-rocket, folks will be increasingly more concerned about great gas mileage. Let's say that a year from now, gasoline prices are $3.50-4.00 per gallon. If that's the case, I do not think that it would be a smart move by Lexus to come out with a non-hybrid LS460. I can't imagine the LS460 would get much more than 25mpg on the highway. I don't think it would sell very well. Why not wait, and come out with a super hybrid sedan that combines luxury, technology, and great gas mileage. Maybe it would be better if Lexus spends more time and comes out with an even more efficient hybrid than that projected from the LS500. I don't see the need for a "gazillion" horsepower vehicle. After a certain point, it is overkill. Why not concentrate more at getting great gas mileage instead of horsepower. Is it possible to build a hybrid luxury sedan that gets let's say 40mpg in the city and 35 on the highway? Am I dreaming here? As you can tell I am very concerned about the fuel cost (even though I can personally afford it). I am afraid that the population as a whole will be very reluctant to spend mucho bucks from this point on unless it will deliver great gas mileage.

ljflx · August 2005

When you can spend $65-70K + on a car or $1k per month on a lease, an extra buck or two a year on gas isn't going to slow you down. It's irritating but hardly road stopping. Besides, in Europe gas prices have been $4-6 a gallon for as long as most people can remember.

The worst move Lexus could ever make is delaying the LS or offering it only as a hybrid.

Again - you need to put your energy fears into perspective. If you are driving 15,000 miles a year and getting 20mpg then your energy consumption is 700 gallons. At 4$ a gallon that is only a thousand dollars different than at $2.50. Lexus, nor MB or anyone else will not change their strategic plans on cars at $70K - 100K+ for a thousand dollars. Besides it's an industry wide issue as that problem exists in every car. On top of all that I still think oil prices are in an inflationary bubble that will eventually settle back to barrel prices in the low 50's. If you drive more than 15k miles a year the depreciation on a lux car will choke you a lot more than fuel prices will.

lexusguy · August 2005

To a certain degree Lexus has to offer certain vehicles because the competition has them. MB, BMW, Audi, and Jaguar all have a very competitive full size luxury car with a V8 and 300hp+. That means Lexus has to have one, or they cant compete. I also dont see gas skyrocketing to $4 a gallon in just a year unless there is some kind of serious problem in the middle east. Hybrids are nice, but they are not miracle workers. Can a 4,000lb+ full size, RWD sedan get 40mpg with today's hybrid technology? Not a chance. I think you'd be lucky to get an extra 10mpg over the standard V8's city mileage, and almost zero benefit on the highway.

I think Hybrid technology has the potential to be a great solution, at least for awhile, just as clean diesel does. In 2005 though, hybrids make up a miniscule portion of new vehicle sales, and for the moment at least, only the Prius and the SUVs are actually hot sellers. Hybrid Civics and Accords are backing up on dealer lots. Nobody has proved yet that the general public is actually interested in a hybrid car that looks just like the regular car its based on. We'll have to wait and see if the hybrid Camry, Altima, and Lexus GS450h work or not, but the hybrid Accord is basically a flop.

Gas also has to be quite a bit more than $4 before you can actually see a ROI in any reasonable amount of time, and then of course, there's the question of what to do with the battery. On one hand you've got lower emissions thanks to partial electric power, but on the other hand you've got this box of toxic waste to deal with. In the short term hybrids are still just "feel good" purchases, with no real economic benefit whatsoever.

cyclone4 · August 2005

Thank you for your perspective ljflx. I hope you are right and that there will still be a big market for luxury non-hybrids. I am so much concerned about the world economic situation due to sky-rocketing energy costs. Because of this, you could not even get me to even think about investing in the stock market. Something is going to have to give soon and I am afraid it will get quite ugly. I hope I am wrong in my gloomy outlook.

nexuslexus · August 2005

I would have to agree that Hybrids are not luxury workers. Also, as an example of people willing to spend extra money for gas for performance, let us look at the $.25 cent difference per gallon between Premium and regular gas. For most cars, (such as many lexus cars, I am not sure about the LS), regular gas will do just fine, though it may reduce your performance a smidgen. Yet I, and tons of other people, continue to pay the higher prices for the upgraded fuel. Doesn't sound to me that we are too concerned with the prices of fuel.

On another note, people who pay this much for a car would have the same millage, if not worse millage, from a competitors car, so Lexus doesn't have to worry there.

In an unrelated comment, thats great news about the AWD being confirmed by Auto News.

ljflx · August 2005

An oil shortage would concern me. Inflationary oil prices with no shortage is a bubble from my perspective. It's driven by an overly aggressive view of China's energy needs and the terrorism risk factor. If either one of those eases you have a $10per barrel easement in prices. If both do you'd have oil priced at $20 a barrel less. But instead of the latter you'll more likely have a moderate easement in both dropping prices about $10-12 a barrel. As an investor I'm a buyer of stocks and not oil right now. One market is still undervalued and the other is overvalued based on too many fears. The oil market looks a little too much like the late 90's stock market to me right now.

Lexus LS 460/LS 460L Styling Impressions

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