To Fix Up or Trade Up, That is the Question

kyfdx · July 2013

an 85 year old man playing tennis on a hot day after smoking a pack of cigarettes and eating a cheeseburger.

I hope that's me, some day.. (minus the cigarettes.. )

Sandman6472 · July 2013

Car runs nicely but issues with the a/c which basically only works on fan speed 3 & 4. Have decided to stay the course and fix the a/c if necessary and wait till the 2014 models come out...our buying time frame is the last week of 2013 at this point as we're both just not ready to purchase yet. Budget will be $20k or less and in the compact and sub compact size vehicle. Best case scenario is for the Mazda to behave and get us through the new year with no drama and then purchase!

The Sandman :sick: :shades:

ohenryx · July 2013

It's my opinion that the modern automobile is pretty much at the end of its useful lifespan at 225,000 miles.

I would agree with MrShift on this one. If you (the car owner) are not having problems, then you shouldn't necessarily run out and replace it right now, immediately, post haste. But if you're already having problems, and the vehicle is over 200k miles, well...

I was talking with a friend just the other day. He has a 2005 Dodge 1500, which he has owned since new. Top of the line, 4 doors, Hemi engine, leather, etc. The truck has been very good to him / for him, but it's now at 230k miles. The red paint is fading, and scratched and dinged in a number of places. The leather on the driver's seat needs replacing.

He was asking about the cost of "a good paint job, not a Maaco" and getting the seat reupholstered. I quoted him a couple of prices ($3 to $5k for the paint, $550 to reupholster one leather seat), and then told him he should really be thinking about a new truck. If he spends $4 or $5 thousand on this one, how is he going to feel when the transmission falls out next month?

fred_martin · September 2013

Hi guys. Less than 1 years ago we chose Honda Jazz for my wife. And now it has some problems with the brake. A mechanic has advised us to change centric front disc for smth like that one http://www.carpartkings.com/centric-front-disc-brake-hub-124-65003.html
But I am confused, the car is bought 10 months ago, and it already has such problems.. Maybe we should just get rid of it and choose another one, what do you think? Please share your experience connected with Honda brake.

qbrozen · October 2013

I'm pretty confused, too.

So you have a car not sold in the US, but your mechanic wants you to buy parts from a company in the US, and what you've linked is a hub, which has nothing to do with the brakes, and its a hub for a Ford F250, to boot.

In any case, without knowing the year of your Honda or how many miles you put on in 10 months or what type of driving your wife does, it is tough to say whether they wore out early or not.

I almost never replace parts with the same that it came with from the factory. For the most part, on your more mundane and inexpensive vehicles, manufacturers are using the parts that are just good enough to get the job done so they can keep costs down. You can almost always find superior parts on the aftermarket.

keep_it_simple · October 2013

Age old question...
Problem is most TCO calculators consider depreciation and interest, etc. If I buy another car, I'd pay cash for a 1-owner vehicle around 5 years old.

Current vehicle is 2003 Lexus RX300 with 230,000 miles on it.
Entire brake line was replaced at 100,000 miles.
Engine was replaced due to bad bearings in oil line at 130,000 miles.
Motor mount has been replaced.
I'd have to look through to see what all else major has been replaced.
Now I've been told I have a bad CV joint (clicking around turns), transmission pan leak (they've been telling me this for a while but I guess now it's critical), power steering leak at pump, somthing else in power steering gearbox, and an oil line leak.

Option A - only so much can go wrong with a car. Body is perfect. Get a second opinion, repair as needed, and go on.

Option B - sell the Lexus and put cost of quoted repairs toward cash for a 1-owner vehicle that's about 5 years old. I drive 12-15,000 miles per year. Better fuel efficiency would mean roughly $500 is gas savings annually. Car ins would likely not change much.

Option C - wait until Lexus completely craps out, then take spouse's 2006 Prius and get spouse a junker (spouse works from home/ drives less than 5000 miles per year)

Option D - something else?

keep_it_simple · October 2013

Dealer estimate is $4000 for repairs. I'm going to quote this out since the car is old enough to not directly benefit from the Lexus warranty program - although all previous work was by Lexus dealer.
I'm hoping to get the repairs under $3000 by finding used parts and not using dealer service center labor.

ohenryx · October 2013

I think I would unload that Lexus and buy something with fewer miles. 230k miles is (in my opinion) getting really close to end-of-life for most cars.

Michaell · October 2013

230k miles is (in my opinion) getting really close to end-of-life for most cars.

+1. $4K is a lot to invest into a car with that many miles.

As to which option to take regarding a new vehicle - get something a few years old and drive it into the ground like you did with the Lexus.

Mr_Shiftright · October 2013

Question that we might ask, to give us a different view: Would you buy a very clean, mechanically perfect 2003 RX for $4,000, even with 230K on it?

I bet most people would.

So I'd base this decision upon the cost of replacement.

OR

We could ask---is $4000 worth another (tops) 45,000 miles?

On that basis, the answer is:..........................:)

IFFY I'd say this is one of those cases where either way is okay. Fix or trade, you flip the coin.

suydam · October 2013

>Would you buy a very clean, mechanically perfect 2003 RX for $4,000, even with 230K on it? >
No way! I would see it as at the end of its useful life. And a gas hog to boot.
What kind of vehicle would you replace it with? Another large SUV type, midsize sedan, hatch, compact? Probably any of them would get better fuel economy and would definitely have many more features that what you have now.

Mr_Shiftright · October 2013

But we are talking about a 2003 RX that was all fixed up---in other words, it would get your mechanic's seal of approval prior to purchase.

You can't buy much for 4000 these days---beaters, mostly.

kyfdx · October 2013

It's still one hiccup from needing another $4000 of work... no matter what my esteemed mechanic says..

Nothing is more expensive to maintain than a cheap luxury vehicle..

Mr_Shiftright · October 2013

Cheaper than $600 a month car payments.

ohenryx · October 2013

I don't think anyone here is advocating a new car for $600 per month. Certainly I'm not.

I'm saying sell the Lexus for $2500, add the $3000 you were going to spend on the repairs, and for $5500 buy a used car with half the miles.

And if you did go crazy and wanted to get something new -- how about one of those really cheap leases for a Civic or a Jetta? With that $5500 down, your lease payments shouldn't run more than $150 per month, tops. Which will probably be a lot less than the ongoing repairs for the 230k Lexus.

keep_it_simple · October 2013

>And a gas hog to boot.
What kind of vehicle would you replace it with? Another large SUV type...<

"Option B - sell the Lexus and put cost of quoted repairs toward cash for a 1-owner vehicle that's about 5 years old. I drive 12-15,000 miles per year. Better fuel efficiency would mean roughly $500 is gas savings annually. Car ins would likely not change much."

There are several 2008 Mazda5 (6-seater) available in my area in the $6000-7000 range.
I average 20mpg usually in the Lexus. Been down to 18-19 since the O2 sensor started going bad. Mazda5 average 27mpg anecdotally.

I'm not really interested in features. I'm not a fan of the Prius and I most certainly do not like the 2014 ES350 Lexus gave as a loaner. I had a 5-speed 1997 honda civic before having kids. Just need something comfortable to get the family around town. I'd prefer a 6-seater but we've been doing just fine with 5-seaters.

ETA - I'm using chrome mobile and apparently can't format. :-/

Mr_Shiftright · October 2013

I question these repair estimates, first of all (I mean the quotes from the dealer). I would think an indie shop could re-assess what's going on and come up with a much cheaper bill. I didn't see anything in there that should cost $4000 bucks---a CV joint is just bolting in an "axle kit" (if that's even the "click"), a power steering pump is a nut and bolt job, and a small oil leak? So what---snug it up see what happens.

Buying any replacement used car that's out of warranty is just a case of " fire meet frying pan".

keep_it_simple · October 2013

I definitely want to quote out the repairs. No doubt about it.

Here's a more specific breakdown for OEM Lexus labor. They're all very high.
Transmission pan replacement- $340
Power Steering pump and pressure line - $1420
Replace entire steering rack - $1320
CV Joint and axle - $400
Oxygen sensor - $480
Ignore oil leak for now.

I'm certain I could find an independent mechanic and used parts for much less. Having had time to think it all through - I imagine I could get it all done for about $2000.
Then the only thing that hasn't been replaced on the car is the transmission. Body is perfect. I'll probably need break pads in about a year. Water pump and timing belt in two years.

What's the cost of running a car until it simply can't be repaired any more versus taking a risk on a $6000 5 year old car with about 120,000 miles?
Seems like I could sell the lexus now for $2000 ($2500 for rough condition private party according to edmunds appraiser). Versus pour how many thousands into it each year and hope for 2-3 more years then not be able to sell it for anything.

The Prius got great gas milage when it was needed for a 180-mile daily commute. Now spouse works from home and seriously drives less than 5000 miles annually. I don't like the Prius. I don't want to be its primary driver. But I've done more unspeakable things in the name of frugality...

PS - I bought the lexus 4 years old an I have done all the maintenance by the book at the dealer over the last 6 years. I'm really hoping these issues are the result of putting so many miles on it and not the dealer service center neglecting necessary maintenance. Surely the first measly 50K on the engine before I bought her couldn't have been a time bomb.

suydam · October 2013

By features I meant safety features, which are standard on most cars now. "A 1-owner vehicle" doesn't say much about what kind of vehicle you want. Your options are pretty determined by the small amount of $$ you have to spend. I take it you don't want a car payment. For that amount down you could get a new compact car with a very low interest rate. Or you could buy a used compact and save up for the SUV you want.

Repairs on a Lexus are likely more expensive than on a Toyota. CV boots were around $2-300 on my Mazda around 10 years ago, so $400 isn't surprising. I just wouldn't put any more $$ into such a high-mileage car.

kyfdx · October 2013

"Cheaper than $600 a month car payments."

Probably not.... you could easily have $10K sunk into the car, counting present value, current repairs and near future repairs.... and, still end up with a non-roadworthy car in less than a year.... With it already having 230K miles, I'd put that probability at 50%..

Would I buy any car with 230K miles? No...

Of course, there are plenty of alternatives to a $600 car payment.. We have a 2011 G37X lease that is $378/mo., tax included.... sans downpayment.. That's not a Honda Civic, either...

Mr_Shiftright · October 2013

A lease is also risky on any number of levels---the person who sinks some money into a used car can always bail, but you can't....so what I mean is that a lease is not necessarily a fiscally alternative solution to used car repairs.

But okay--point taken---putting money in a high mileage used car is risky--that's why i called this whole thing IFFY

jipster · October 2013

Not like the car has been problem free till now. Reliability issues not going to get any better with 230k miles, only worse. I say buy new to you.

jipster · October 2013

If you put $5,500 down on a leased Civic LX, which probably is not a good idea, you'd probably be looking at a $40 a month payment.

Mr_Shiftright · October 2013

Not a good idea if the car gets wrecked, that's for sure.

Sandman6472 · October 2013

Is leasing and then buying out at the end always more expensive than purchasing and financing outright? What is the most affordable way here? Get that with leasing, one can get into a more expensive vehicle than they normally would be able to afford. But with going the lease route or the financing route, which is the cheapest? Have never leased but would be afraid that they would charge for every scratch, dimple etc. that happens with normal driving. With owning, the hits to my back bumper from the garage door hitting it when it came down bothered me but I am living with the damage still but if it was leased, I would've already had it repaired. Have read about these humongous charges for these things upon turn in...how picky are they really? And on the sneakers, does one have to put the same exact ones that came from the factory or can one use a cheaper brand? I realize that each axle must have the same kind of tread but how picky are they about this also? I like the idea of leasing for the fact that one, like myself, could get into a really nice vehicle for just a couple of years to scratch that itch and then buy something more affordable after the lease is done. think it would be fun for that little time period as one only lives once!

The Sandman

qbrozen · October 2013

Is leasing and then buying out at the end always more expensive than purchasing and financing outright?

No. I've seen examples (have had a couple myself and a couple for family, too) where there is big trunk money and super low rates for a lease that are not on financing the same car. I couldn't tell you why a manufacturer would do this, but it happens. So if you calculate it out, you find that you could save some money taking advantage of the lease and then financing the buyout.

Of course, the risk is that interest rates skyrocket during your lease term, making financing the buyout at the end more expensive than anticipated.

gill30 · December 2013

I have a question for everyone. I have a 2002 Ford Explorer Sport Trac with 4wd on it. About a year ago it started making a winding sound sometimes when you take your foot off of the gas pedal. Then it started acting as though it was going to backfire preceding this winding sound. So that is my warning that it will mess up. I have a feeling that this is happening when it is trying to shift. My husband drove it last weekend and was not able to get it into reverse. When he put it in reverse it made the winding sound. I have an appointment with a transmission shop to have it looked at and I'm wondering with it being a 2002 and having 150k miles on it, would you fix it or trade it?

suydam · December 2013

See what the repair costs are going to be first. Maybe it's not as bad as you fear.

To Fix Up or Trade Up, That is the Question

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