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MazdaSpeed3: Styling Impressions
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Comments
Eve though the MPS3 is FWD, i think this car will handle like any good Mazda Performance Serie product
I really do not see how Mazda will "cannibalize" their own sales with the MS3. Considering Mazdaspeed does cars every 2 years, and if that stays true, the MS6 will no longer be in production by the time the MS3 hit showroom's. Where is the problem?
Also, the MS3 will not probably offer anything close to interior comfort, or lux. options, like the MS6. Even if engine performance is similar, they will most likey be two totally different cars.
That is one of the most intelegent statements I have heard thus far. Except for Florida and California, there are really no Subaru dealers in any other southern states. For example, there are 4 Subi dealers in Arkansas. Subaru was smart that way. Since they are a very small company, they only offer their product where most of the business will be.
If I lived in a warm climate with fairly straight roads(Florida), I would see no reason for AWD.
I was under the impression the MS3 would be in the showroom this fall as an '07 model. If this is the case, there would be some overlap.
Oh, and about those extra expenses. Perhaps investing in a new C3 architecture wasn't a very good idea, either. U know, expenses and all. But the rewards would be something like selling at or near capacity for 3 consecutive years with very little incentives (if the gerber rebate, for example, is considered an incentive at all).
You Subaru example would lead most lay people to believe that an AWD vehicle would reduce sales. BTW - AWD vehicles r more than just snow and ice vehicles. How about rain? They must have that down in the south. AWD performance is also beneficial in dry conditions, especially with a high performance vehicles like an MS3. And "alot of folks" r not buying MS3s; enthusiasts are, however. Which brings me to my next question, how many MS3s r forecasted for build (break down North America's share)??? Probably, not enough to make a big enough dent into the 3's capacity.
I believe the rear chassis of the 3 and 6 r nearly identical. If so, and I repeat, IF SO, than the adoption process would be relatively painless (inexpensive). So, Mazda went and spent all of their $$$ on other vehicles, leaving the MS3 with only enough $ for a turbo charger and some chassis upgrades? And since many of the r&d was already completed under the MS6 program (wouldn't doubt simultaneously), than the starting price for the MS3 should be about $21K ($23K fully loaded). Any more is a rip off.
Oh, did I mention IMHO?
If you want AWD in architecture based on the Mazda3, go buy a Volvo S40.
Why must Mazda bring out AWD in the MS3 to suit......chacobleu? I wasn't aware that Mazda was trying to become the AWD company....or is that just the wishes of chacobleu. Who knows, maybe they'll see how good the sales are of the MS6 and decide at some future point that AWD is the way to go and offer more choices. Just out of curiousity (and perhaps audi8q can answer this): how are sales of the MS6 going? Is AWD for this car a serious draw or are more folks simply interested in more hp?
BTW - I would love for Mazda to release a RWD version of the Mazda3. But the reason I'm potentially interested in a MS3 is because I like the idea of an economical, inexpensive practical hatchback with room for a couple of passengers with a lot of urge under my foot when I want it in a very responsive chassis. Now, if you can tell me where I can find this in a RWD alternative, I'm all ears. (Actually, I'm praying that Mazda can bring something like the Kabura to the market). But I'm not going to waste everybody's time in here postulating about what a bonehead move it is for Mazda to keep it FWD just because I (rorr) may prefer RWD. I've been acused of being self-centered before but not THAT self-centered.
IMnotsoHO.
There has been no anouncement from Mazda yet. I guess the Geneva Auto Show will be our first glimpse as to what Mazda intends. Also, back in 2004, Mazda debuted the Mazdaspeed6, and it got here at the end of 2005 as a 2006 model. That's what I think the Mazdaspeed3 will be a 2008. But, I could be wrong. If it does come out next fall, it will be the first overlap of a Mazdaspeed vehicle.
I don't know...but I would look at previous generation speed cars for clues. Plus, What fun would it be without the wild speculations??
lol
So so true. Who knows, we may have another 2-years to kick this whole AWD vs. FWD issue back and forth. Maybe I can start working on my argument for why Mazda needs to convert the MS3 to RWD..... :P
What's your guess on the cost of the Mazdaspeed 3 in comparison to the manual Mazda 3 S and the Mazdaspeed 6?
And what is the Mazdaspeed 6 doing for your dealership?
Is it bringing people in?
Has anyone moved from looking at the Mazda 6 6 cyl. and changed to buying the Mazdaspeed 6?
Who do you think would be tempted by the Mazdaspeed 3?
"Front weehl (sic) drive Mazda3 5-doors Hatchback with direct injected turbocharged 2.3 l engine delivering 260 HP"
link title
Someone out there did build a RWD Focus. So, there is a shimmer of hope.
At the end of the day, we both want Mazda to build the BEST MS3 keeping in mind $$$. It's just I feel more passionately about it than u. U r more inclined to giving them a pass on AWD.
BTW - I'm not the only one that wishes an AWD MS3. I'm sure there are plenty south of the snowbelt. In fact, I think it a great idea to have 2 different types of MS3s just like Subaru's WRX and WRX STi. Only in this case it would be one with and without AWD (vs. Subaru's difference in HP / Torque). Nomenclature would be something like MS3 and MSX3.
One more thing, I've seen rally racing. Alot of rally racing consists of terrain naturally found in your neck of the woods.
Fun is driving the darn thing, not anticipating then next coming. I don't think I ever smiled writing about a Mazda. Ditto washing, maintaining, etc. But get me behind the wheel on twisty, hilly, back road. Exhilarating!
Of course, your definition of fun might just be selling every MS3 in stock within days. Sorry for the jab.
sidetrack but...
Practical enough for my purposes (seating for 3 full-sized humans, hatchback and folding rear seats for storage). Is it AS practical as the Mazda3? No. But it would be a nice transition from my current Celica.
Re: RWD Focus - yep, there are a few Franken-foci running around (mustang drivetrain in a Focus); but my requirement for a practical RWD sporty car included relatively inexpensive. Something tells me that converting a Focus to RWD is neither simple nor inexpensive.
"we both want Mazda to build the BEST MS3 keeping in mind $$$. It's just I feel more passionately about it than u."
Careful there. You have no idea how 'passionate' I may be about any particular issue. You desire AWD in a sporty hatch, yet you don't own a WRX. It would be easy for ME to judge just how 'passionate' you may be about AWD, but I don't know all the circumstances for why you drive a Mazda3 instead, so I can't judge.
And realistically speaking, does AWD add enough to the performance side (taking into account the additional weight and drivetrain losses) to justify the loss in mileage and additional cost? Would a LSD provide most of the performance benefits of AWD with fewer of the non-performance tradeoffs?
Yes, I see what you mean. Actually the page says "more than 250 bhp" which I suppose does not contradict 260 hp on the other page but it makes one wonder what's the real stat.
For those of you looking for the site, google on Geneva Auto Show than go to Premieres and search for Mazda.
link title
taking into account the additional weight and drivetrain losses
Who cares when the 275+HP and torgue to match? I don't hear complaints from Mitsubishi and Subaru owner. R there MS6 owners wishing they ONLY had FWD? U see, the MS3 has the potential of being an AWD 275+ HP unit, except for its big brother is wearing that suit. With the 275+HP unit found in the MS6, the weight gain and drivetrain loss would be scrubbed in perfomance numbers. And if u r that concerned about mileage and cost (which overlap), stick to the i version with the beige interior.
BTW - Concerns about weight gain and drivetrain loss r passionate issues (speaking from an enthusiast's point of view); mileage and cost emphasizes passion for the almighty dollar (a/k/a just plain cheap).
"WRX is not a refined unit - I've driven one."
For someone so passionate about performance, I'm surprised you let that stand in your way. Or did the cost of the WRX drive you to the Mazda3? Was that a budget issue or were you just being cheap?
U must be reading from a different forum. Performance is just one ingredient. How about handling? Anyone for style? Perhaps safety? One could ask: where does safety fit into the passion equation? For which I would answer: brakes (air bags may one day save my life, for which I will be grateful, but never passionate about). Something like 0-100-0. Oh, yes, then there's refinement - they all can build a super car, but it must have some civility. I'm sure I missed a couple.
Stomping on the gas pedal of any Mazdaspeed will never result in extraordinary gas mileage. And then there's price. U know the WRX is not that expensive out right, relatively speaking - but insurance is at a permium which adds to the "cost to own" factor.
Round and round we go.
All are very good issues to judge a car by. Just as fuel economy and cost might be considered, which is what I was pointing out in my prior post.
"Stomping on the gas pedal of any Mazdaspeed will never result in extraordinary gas mileage."
Sure. Just as stomping on the gas pedal in ANY car will never result in extraordinary gas mileage. But at the same time, IF one is just using their MS3 as a commuter car, should they have to suffer the penalties of an AWD drivetrain 100% of the time just so they can realize it's benefit 1% of the time?
Let's look at this whole issue from a different angle (since I'm tired of the round and round): what does AWD bring to the table from a performance standpoint? Does it allow the driver to put the power down better, in both a straightline and exiting a corner? Sure.
But is it necessarily FUNNER TO DRIVE?
Consider the Miata. Mazda has know for YEARS that the secret to a car like the Miata wasn't necessarily in the performance numbers, but in the way it drove. Lively. Responsive. Would the Miata have been QUICKER with another 50hp and AWD? Sure. Would it have been more rewarding to drive? Doubtful.
So rather than sit here and try to second guess Mazda on what makes a car fun to drive and postulate that they should have gone to AWD because, well, everybody else is doing it(?), why not simply wait and judge the car after it is out.
Is it bringing people in?
Has anyone moved from looking at the Mazda 6 6 cyl. and changed to buying the Mazdaspeed 6?
Who do you think would be tempted by the Mazdaspeed 3?
All our initial cars got pre-sold to the guys who wanted to be the first...now they are selling well but not crazy like the Mazda3. We have had a few people try the speed and the V6...all have ended up with the speed except one and it was an insurance issue. I think the speed3 will fit nicely in the lineup...Many of the 3 buyers are younger folks who will go nuts over the speed3 as long as the price isnt too high.
Wheels look a bit busy (for my taste); love the seats!
or just click the carspace banner at the top of the page and look for audia8q.
if you visit...make sure you join my friends list.
U see, Rorr, u and I r on 2 different levels. Sure the Mazdaspeed 3 with FWD is just a CAR. A Mazdaspeed 3 with AWD is a FINE PIECE OF MACHINERY. And that is what could'v, should'v, would'v been so grand: commuter vehicle Mon-Fri and LA style car chase on the weekend.
Oh well, so much for dreaming.
So rather than sit here and try to second guess Mazda on what makes a car fun to drive and postulate that they should have gone to AWD because, well, everybody else is doing it(?), why not simply wait and judge the car after it is out.
Yeah, sure, Mazda has determined FWD is better than AWD. Just like Mazda decided 250 hp is better than 275 hp because the FWD is already over burdened with too much power or sales cannibalization or what have u. Oh, and everybody else is doing it! So is Mazda (aka 6), just not to the 3 - we r not worthy.
BTW - don't ever compare a mfg. like Honda to Mazda or any other mfg. They've publicly announced that they would NEVER produce a V8 and they would NEVER produce a RWD vehicle with a front engine (obviously, they need to separate the NSX from their speech). As far as the Acura with SH-AWD, it is still a FWD biased vehicle. So, now that their top-of-the-line vehicle has AWD, how long would it take for that to trickle down to the "civil servant" the CIVIC? And until that happens, the 3 will not be afforded AWD?
Hey, what r the chances of seeing Mazdaspeed 6 wagon? What, with the CX-7 or CX-9, slim to none???
Not FASTER (I'm sure that AWD would be quicker), but better? Which would be more entertaining to drive? I typically don't drive with a stopwatch hardwired into the pleasure center of my brain and I've been on the track having a BLAST with cars which are slower.
Think about the following carefully before you reply:
I have a cousin who has owned 2 ERA cobra replicas (the first with a 427 and the 2nd a 289FIA replica with a 475hp 289 race motor). He has also built for others a couple of GT40 replicas. He currently owns (and competition races) a '66 Shelby GT350. His wife's daily driver is a C5 Corvette with a 6spd manual. He usually drives a truck.
He recently bought a Mini Cooper S. FWD. Both he and his wife find the Cooper S to be MUCH more fun to drive than the Corvette.
The Corvette without any doubt is faster, by ANY measure. But the Cooper S is more entertaining (much more entertaining) to drive. And this is coming from someone who knows how to drive and APPRECIATES a well setup car with good handling.
My point? The funnest car is not always the fastest. It is possible to have TOO much traction. You may be in love with the IDEA of AWD in a performance car, but I'll trust that Mazda knows what they are doing with regard to chassis setup based on their history of building cars which are fun to drive.
BTW - does anyone else think that the torque steer (in the Mazda3) is more noticeable when turning to the right?
Let me guess; the inside front wheel tends to spin. A limited slip differential (LSD) goes a LONG way to cure this. Which is one reason why the old Intregra Type 'R', new Civic Si as well as the 300hp FWD Caliber SRT4 are all equipped with a LSD.
"...more noticeable when turning to the right?"
That's because you are typically turning at a sharper angle when turning right (say into a driveway or making a right turn at an intersection). The sharper steering angle makes the effect more noticeable.
Which is one reason why the old Intregra Type 'R', new Civic Si as well as the 300hp FWD Caliber SRT4 are all equipped with a LSD.
My buddy used to own a 1999 Integra Type-R, whatta car that was for it's day. Far superior to what other makes had at the time.
Correct u r. That is why Mazda built the AWD MS6
The funnest car is not always the fastest.
It is ALWAYS more fun, entertaining, thrilling, exhilarating, etc., etc., etc. to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow. U c, no need to think about it. That is why, even though AWD may slow down a super fast MS3 (if there ever were to be one), the difference is negligible. But the rewards may be that much more, especially after scrubbing a corner (regardless of the incline).
Now, about those drifts...
But a compromise. Let start the HP at about 230+.
For 200+ hp, I would only pay a nickel more than an S version of today.
If I had to venture a guess, Mazda will likely leverage the Volvo AWD platform from the S40 if they plan on using AWD in the MS3 as indicated in the article.
The key sentence: "One of the hottest small entries will be the Mazdaspeed3, a performance version of the strong-selling Mazda3. Expected out this summer, the speed3 will come with close to 270 horsepower, almost certainly all-wheel-drive, and an expected price tag somewhere north of CDN$25,000, but south of CDN$30,000."
It was mentioned somewhere in this forum that a modified version of the Volvo S40/V50 AWD was being used in the MS6. Obviously, the most apparent modification would be to accomodate a different wheel base. But I'm sure there are more mods to help out with the substantial bump in HP and torque.
The perfect Mazdaspeed 3 would have the 275+ HP engine and AWD from the MS6. A 6-gear dual clutch transmission (SVT Focus had one). Limited slip, stability control, and larger/vented ABS brakes (with an on/off switch for each/all). 17" 225/45 series rubbers. Minus the radio and speakers, minus the cruise control, and minus the cup holders, minus the sun visors (I would minus the power steering but that may be needed for the stability control).
On the topic of a multi gear dual clutch system. If Mazda were to have such a unit, the 6 would see it long before the 3. That seems to be the Mazda pecking order, for now.
:confuse:
Why would power steering be needed for stability control?
Boy, that article seems to be so far from the truth, based on what Mazda is saying about the car they are building. I wonder where the author got his information from.
MazdaSpeed3 Press Release
"Additionally, torque characteristics from first through fourth gears are optimized to deliver appropriate drive power from take off. Torque control is also linked to the steering angle, and the stiffness of the left and right drive shafts is balanced with the angles optimized to control torque steer. A newly-developed limited slip differential is also adopted..."
Ahh, good. And this:
"Body rigidity has been increased by several features, including a reinforced front cowl member that is joined directly to a plate in the top section of the front damper mount, assuring the same rigidity as a car fitted with strut tower bars. This prevents deformation of the front suspension towers and maintains correct suspension geometry. In the lower body, a large closed section member is employed to reinforce the floor tunnel which improves the torsional rigidity of whole body. At the rear, the gusset introduced at the bottom end of the rear suspension towers restrains the tendency of the towers to displace inwards which maintains the correct suspension geometry in the rear."
Stiffer chassis; excellent. And this:
"Both the MacPherson strut front suspension and multi-link rear suspension have higher coil spring rates and larger diameter stabilizer bars than the Mazda3 facelift. Dampers also have a higher damping force on the MPS. Damping force on both jounce and rebound is approximately 6 times better at low piston speed, and about 1.3 times better at moderate piston speed. Combined with the reinforced coil springs and stabilizer bars, this produces 60 percent more roll stiffness than the Mazda3 facelift."
Sounds nice on paper. I can't wait to see some objective reviews to how this all translates on the road.
What is maybe? (As defined by Merriam-Webster.)
I don't know "Why would power steering be needed for stability control?" If I did, I would not have used the term maybe. Since we're on the subject, first thing that comes to mind is perhaps boost control. With steering angles and inputs from the driver, it would probably be a (meaning, one) root/source of control for the stability control.
Ah, but I've never built, stripped, seen, etc. a stability control unit, module, or program. But figuring that engine torque may be increased/decreased in a stability control architecture, power steering boost may swell/reduce accordingly.
Stability control does nothing to actual control the steering, which is why I asked that question.
Stability control uses yaw sensors in the car to determine the rate at which the car is changing direction. It uses steering wheel sensors to determine steering wheel angle and speed sensors to determine vehicle speed and computes the rate at which the car SHOULD be turning based on wheel angle and vehicle speed.
It then COMPARES the computed value against what the yaw sensors are telling it. It then can tell if the car is beginning to understeer (actual yaw rates are less than computed value) or oversteer (actual yaw rates are greater than computed value). It then activates specific brakes to help bring the car back onto the line intended by the steering angle.
Stability control at no point actually 'steers' for the driver; hence there is no need for power steering.
Now, that is shaving off weight. Now, could we please have AWD.
Well, look at that. Most of the weight came off the front end, making it lighter; adding AWD would add more weight to the rear making it heavier. A better balanced vehicle front to rear - that should make for better handling vehicle without any other changes.
You don't have to convince me; just Mazda.
Personally, I like your attitude regarding weight reduction though......I just wish you weren't so quick to put it back into the car.
(and I'd adjust the weight distribution by moving the battery to the rear of the car....)
BTW - have you driven a FWD car with a LSD?