Honda Accord Hybrid - worth the extra $$$?

backy · March 2005

Munchikins? I sat in an Accord at the auto show this weekend and was astounded by the rear-seat legroom. It was almost limo-like. But I am "only" 5' 9.5"--a munchikin next to you six-footers I guess. If you need hat room, there's lots of vehicles on the market styled "tall". The Accord is styled more like a traditional sedan, with a lower roofline--which I personally prefer to the "tall" look. If I want tall, I'll buy an SUV or minivan.

russ5 · March 2005

I couldn't believe that you thought the HAH was too tight for tall people. I am 6'1" and I just went out to check the head room in my HAH. My head was at least 2 inches below the ceiling. When you tried the showroom car the seat must have been set at its heighest position for someone short.

nowakj66 · March 2005

I am 6 foot 4 and the Accord fits me better than just about any sedan. Certainly any sedan in the price range. My height is my legs though - 36" inseam.

In fact, the Accord, the Odyssey and the Ridgeline are the only Hondas that fit me comfortably. I wish the CR-V, Element and Pilot fit but my legs always end up tangling with the steering wheel.

What saves the Accord for me is the tilt and telescoping wheel.

I would think the HAH would better for long torsoed people too since it does not have the moon roof which reduces headroom.

PF_Flyer · March 2005

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gagrice · March 2005

link courtesy of larsb

Make no mistake, the Hybrid Accord leaps off the line, leaving the non-hybrid in its dust. Yet fuel economy compared to the Accord V-6 is officially an impressive 31 per cent better in the city and 21 per cent better on the highway.

That's good, but not good enough to justify the price premium. The Accord Hybrid sells for $36,990, $3,390 more than a comparably equipped non-hybrid V-6 Accord EX. So even with gas averaging 84.9 cents/litre (according to M.J. Irvin & Associates) and destined to soar higher as crude oil goes past $53 (U.S.) a barrel, it could take as many as 10 years for the hybrid system to pay for itself at the pump.

At least for the average driver.

http://www.globetechnology.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20050317.gtwhaccord17/BNStory/Technolog- y/

gagrice · March 2005

In fact, the Accord, the Odyssey and the Ridgeline are the only Hondas that fit me comfortably.

That is interesting. When the salesman showed us the HAH I sat in the drivers seat and my hand laying flat on my head touched the headliner. I mentioned that the car did not have much headroom to the salesman and he nodded that it was true. I sat in another Accord EX and the same headroom. Then we went out and looked at the Odyssey EX-L and I could lay my hand sideways on my head and not touch the headliner. It was a good 5 inches more headroom. Here is what I question. Edmund's specs on the HAH & Odyssey have the Accord with 40.4 inches of headroom and the Odyssey with only 39.2 inches. Something ain't right.

backy · March 2005

The Accord Hybrid sells for $36,990,...

Where? Other posters have noted the HAH is selling below MSRP. MSRP is $30,500 for non-nav. Why would anyone pay $6000 over MSRP?

backy · March 2005

The HAH like other Accords has a height-adjustable seat. How high was the seat of the Accords you sat in?

midnightcowboy · March 2005

Backy,

The article was a Canadian review. The $36,990 is the Candadian MSRP

Look at the gas comsumption in L/km

Happy St. Pat,

MidCow

electrictroy · March 2005

Same Old Story.

The car reviewers have been using this line since 2000.

troy

larsb · March 2005

positives:
1) better mpg
2) slightly more power
3) higher resale at trade
4) lower emissions
5) saving money every time you fillup the tank
6) hybrid-only dashboard instruments allow you to more closely monitor your driving habits to achieve better efficiency
7) the emotional boost of knowing you are helping the environment
8) no emissions at all when stopped at a red light

negatives: (see my comments after yours in the parentheses)

1) higher MSRP (getting more car for the money, will be returned at trade time)

2) less likely to be discounted or have low APR (not in the future when they become commonplace - that's the cost of being an "early adopter" of ANY new technology - look at the prices of LCD televisions today versus 18 months ago - when you buy early, you usually get no or low discounts - this is not AT ALL solely a Hybrid car phenomenon.)

3) less choice in what's on the lot (actually, they are pretty much limited in options and colors anyway - most come loaded with only the Navigation system optional. You can always ORDER EXACTLY the config you want.)

4) Higher weight - which using the same braking system is likely to increase stopping distances (and exactly how many times in your LIFE have you had to make a full braking high speed emergency stop? I have driven more than a million miles in my life and I have not ever had to do that. Don't buy a car based on stopping distances unless you are a madman who does emergency stops on a normal basis.)

5) mechanics unfamiliarity with the hybrids (most modern cars require dealers to fix them - this is not a hybrid phenomenon.)

6) a hybrid system adds extra parts - statistically have increased the probability of components to fail. (not a problem when the car is under warranty. do what I do and buy an extended warranty and be worry free for 100K miles)

7) smaller trunk. (not an issue if you dont need the extra space, or buy a roof carrier. In the 13 or 14 cars I have owned, I made do with the space I had. Again, if you are buying a car because of trunk space, it would seem like you need a wagon.)

kernick · March 2005

you: 7) the emotional boost of knowing you are helping the environment.

me: you aren't "helping" the environment in any way when you buy a vehicle and run it. There are other cars and modes of transportation which are just as clean and efficient.

And tell the environment to stop polluting the environment - that Mt. St. Helens and its relatives make a bit of air pollution, and all those lightning strikes which cause forest fires that burn millions of acres every year. You're worried about tiny little cars, and our impact on the environment, when you should be worried about the environment killing us off - Yellowstone supervolcano.

I think hybrids will sell to the mainstream buyer when you can get any premium back in gas savings in 2-3 years of usage. Right now I'd say I'd pay $1500 extra for a hybrid over a non-hybrid. And I don't want it to be on a $30K car. A 1.8S Sentra auto sells for $11K around here. Sell a hybrid Sentra for $12.5K and I'd try it. Or a hybrid Focus, or Neon.

nowakj66 · March 2005

I think it is funny that if you tell most people you want to buy an Acura TL instead of a Honda Accord it is almost universally and instantly understood that having a slightly more exclusive car is probably worth the premium.

But try to explain you want an Accord Hybrid instead of an Accord V6 and people whip out their mental spreadsheet and start tallying savings. Maybe because the cars are so similar (hybrid v non-hybrid accord).

I also think in this culture it is easier to explain spending more to one up others on luxury than compete in the arena of perceived enviro-friendliness. Whether the hybrid really is more or less enviro friendly we could debate all day.

My point is social posturing via conspicuous consumption is more readily understood than posturing via having the perceived greenest or most enviromentally friendly car. It tells you something about ourselves.

I agree that if the pay back on a hybrid is quick, you will get more takers. It is always easier to appeal to enlightened self interest rather than an appeal to advancing the common good. Just the way we are wired or socialized, I guess.

newdaddyof2 · March 2005

The Accord Hybrid sells for $36,990,...

Where?

Canada

newdaddyof2 · March 2005

Don't forget the tax savings from the IRS.
$2,000.00 a year deduction.

nowakj66 · March 2005

I think it is a one time $2000 deduction from income (not every year). If your marginal federal rate is 28%, that is worth $560 to you. A nice bonus but not enough to push you one way or another in many instances.

midnightcowboy · March 2005

Didn't think the TL premium was worth it so bought 6-speed Accord Coupe instead. By the same token, I do not think the Hybrid premium is worth it.

blane · March 2005

Aw common MidCow. With all of your comments about Borla exhausts and 6-speed sticks, you know that you wouldn't have considered the Honda Accord Hybrid. It's a 4-door sedan with a slushbox.

explorerx4 · March 2005

yeah mid... even flowmasters wouldn't help when running in electric mode.

mevande · March 2005

Hello all,
I have a "gas guzzler", 1999 BMW 740i that is paid for.. mostly..80% by company I used to work for. I wonder how many miles I would have to drive with my car (300HP V8) to justify the purchase of anything "new". I do want to help the environment. I think the Honda Hybrid is a great car (drove one). Auto manufacturers and research in general needs to do a much better jog re: alternative fuel sources (Hydrogen?). We have not invested wisely as a nation for gas has been relatively cheap for a long time. Now we (rightly so) are seeing emotions that spurred the emergence of the small car "fad" back when we had our last gas crisis. We need to get going and get American "know how" moving on vehicles we would "love" to drive that run on alternative fuels. My 3 cents:)

electrictroy · April 2005

"I think it is funny that if you tell most people you want to buy an Acura TL instead of a Honda Accord it is almost universally and instantly understood that having a slightly more exclusive car is probably worth the premium."

.

Not really. I and most of the people I know, don't think it's worth the +$10,000 pricetag just to have "acura" on the car. Waste of money.

troy

still_thinkin · April 2005

I'm thinking about purchasing a HAH but have some concerns. My biggest concern is the warranty on the battery. I am a contract worker, and I have to commute 200 miles round trip each day (90% highway). So figure that's 50K miles per year. The warranty on the battery is what 80K? Any ideas when the battery will actually go and have to be replaced? What if the battery goes on my way? Will the car be inoperable if the battery dies or will the car operate as a normal car until I replace the battery?
If I don't get an HAH I was thinking about the EX 4 cylinder since it only gets 3 mpg less than the hybrid (EPA anyway, at least its a standard to compare). Or, maybe even a 2004 EX 4 cylinder.

Any comments/suggestions?

rfruth · April 2005

200 miles (3 hours) a day !? Makes my back hurt just thinking about it

backy · April 2005

I don't think you'll ever make up the cost difference between a EX 4 cylinder (go with a 2004 if you can get it with SABs/SACs) and the HAH, given almost all of your miles will be on the highway. Assuming for example you could get 35 mpg on the EX and 40 on the HAH (this is just an example, folks...), that's only $660 in savings in gas @ $3.00/gallon per year. Plus as you point out, the X-factor is the life of the battery and its replacement cost. It may last the life of the car, but if it doesn't that's a major cost.

Plus cruising on the highway you won't really get to take advantage of some of the HAH's best features, like the extra power and the auto-stop.

kurtamaxxguy · April 2005

I don't work for these people but EnergyCS company is developing a higher capacity battery for Hybrids. For Prius it takes it from 1.3 kw to over 9 kw (over 5 times the capacity).

Weight increases by roughl7 170 lbs. Cost increase is guessed around $3 - 5K.

Question; Would you pay your friendly Honda dealer an additional $3 - 5K for having 5+ times the battery capacity put into your HAH?

electrictroy · April 2005

"I am a contract worker, and I have to commute 50K miles per year. The warranty on the battery is what 80K. I was thinking about the EX 4 cylinder since it only gets 3 mpg less than the hybrid"

.

Don't worry. With your driving style, you'll barely use the battery. It will still be like-new when the car starts falling apart at 300,000 miles. (You can then use the rechargable D cells in your radios) ;-)

As for saving dollars, if that's your goal, why don't you get a Civic HX? It costs only ~$17,000 and the manual version gets 44mpg highway.

troy

backy · April 2005

Would you want to drive 200 miles a day in a Civic? I don't know that I would. If that's acceptable, then the way to go is buy an Insight 5-speed (sllightly used if possible), easily good for 70 mpg on the highway (and much more is possible).

gagrice · April 2005

Would you want to drive 200 miles a day in a Civic?

That would be more driving than I would like for sure. How comfortable is the Insight on long drives? Any of you owners. I notice there are a quite a few on the greenhybrid with over 100k miles. Also people with very long commutes.

electrictroy · April 2005

Sure why not? I think driving is relaxing. Pop-in a book-on-tape, lean back, and just cruise. I drove my insight 1000 miles w/o stopping several times. It was better than sitting at home and drooling in front of the TV!

Anyway, back to the original poster's...
QUESTION: "I drive 200 miles and want to save money."
ANSWER: You can buy a cheap Civic HX for ~$17,000 and it will give you 40+ mpg highway. That's what I would do.

troy

midnightcowboy · April 2005

Actually the HX is very limited supply and hard to find meaning you special order and pay MSRP; air conditioning is not standard. It is rated very high mpg 36/44 A manual shift Corolla would probably be the best bet at under $12K and it is still rate for pretty good mileage 32/41 and very peppy for than mileage around 9.6 seconds 0-60.

Insights are rare (especially manual) and you have to pay MSRP of around 21K. HCH are not much better priced. The old new 2005 Jetta Diesels can still be had at around $18K but still you are paying more than a Corolla and relability is somewhat iffy.

Again for a long-term economical reliable car a Corolla is a good bet!

crus'n in 6th Manual shift man,
MidCow

P.S.- Man troy you are amazing, I get tired just driving form Houston to Tulsa and that is only 500 miles and it takes me 8 hours. I need several stops for food, gas and bathroom breaks. 1,000 miles is some 14-16 hours of driving I am inpressed. However I did go 100 miles this past weekend on 0 gallons what great mileage you get on a bicycle:)

oneandonly1 · April 2005

Hi folks...I'm new to this board, but thought I'd add to the discussion. I just purchased my Accord Hybrid w/Navi in taffeta white on Saturday and I LOVE it

.

I had been thinking of purchasing a hybrid for about a year and 1/2. Originally, I looked into the Prius. I loved all the tech gadgets and gizmos, but my hubby wasn't thrilled on the looks and lack of power. Of course, I would be the main driver, so I just wanted something fun and economical for my 40 mile round trip commute. So I was on the waiting list for a year, and when they called me in December to let me know that my car was in, I was hesitant. Hesitant because I still hadn't sold my old car (2002 MB C320), and also because now I was interested in the newest Hybrid contendor, the Accord Hybrid. So I had to decline the car...but boy am I glad I did.

Since end of February, I had been trying to get the Accord Hybrid in Desert Mist w/Navi. That was my top choice. But for some reason, that color was extremely hard to get in So Ca. Considering the limited 4 colors, only 2 come in the tan leather/wood grain interior - the Desert Mist and the Taffeta White. I had my mind made up that I would wait for the Desert Mist, but then my car sold much quicker than I expected, and I needed a car sooner rather than later. So I decided to get the white, and I am loving it more every day. It looks very bold and elegant in the white, especially with the red taillights and tinted windows.

I've read many of the posts regarding the justification for paying $3k more than the regular EX V6. I think that it is worth it. I am not a huge environmentalist myself I must say, I really bought it for the fuel economy and the unique features. And really, I don't think I got a bad price either. The MSRP on the regular EX V6 w/Navi is $28,850. I bought mind for only about $1250 more than that. I purchased mind from the fleet dept in a So Ca dealer, and they basically gave me the car for about $700 over invoice. No other dealers were offering a discount, but some did offer a price match. I figure considering that many people are even selling the cars for a markup over MSRP, I really got a good deal. They also had a great finance rate of 2.9% which expired a couple of days after I got the car.

I love pretty much everything about the car. I've owned Hondas in the past and have no qualms about reliability. Of course, I did purchase the 7yr/100k warranty just to be on the safe side. The voice commands for the audio, navi, and climate control are great. It takes a bit of time to get the exact commands properly though, so I'll have to read up on the manual some more. The Navi even has a calender and calculator function. The XM radio is great too. You get a 3 month free trial, and most likely I will subscribe when that expires. And the cabin is REALLY roomy. I am 5'6", and my hubby is 6' and we both have plenty of room. Some negatives: No spare tire or split down of rear bench; no power seat adjustment for passenger; no auto headlamps; no sunroof; no key entry for doors except driver's; ugly plastic antenna (for XM radio?); no memory seats.

Overall, I am really happy with my purchase, and look foward to playing around with all the features.

midnightcowboy · April 2005

oneandonly1,

Great informative post. Congratulations on your new car and welcome to the Edmund's Honda boards. I just recently purchased a new Honda also, but I opted for the Accord Coupe w/NAV with a 6-speed becuase I like to shift manually.

crus'n in 6th,

MidCow

electrictroy · April 2005

"P.S.- Man troy you are amazing, I get tired just driving form Houston to Tulsa and that is only 500 miles and it takes me 8 hours. 1,000 miles is some 14-16 hours of driving I am inpressed. "

=====================================================

(shrug) From 6 a.m. (wake-up) to 9 pm (bedtime)... no big deal. Sitting in a car, listening to the radio/books-on-tape, and watching the beautiful scenery go by..... It's more interesting than my current "stuck in a cubicle" job!

I used to do the 6 hour round-trip commute to New York's Suburbia. I liked the daily journey, listening to talk radio. But the one drawback was the shortened sleep time (only 8 hours) which is why I ultimately quit. I like to sleep longer.

troy

still_thinkin · April 2005

That's my point. I don't think the civic would be as comfortable as the HAH and if I'm going to be in the car for that long every day I'd like to be comfortable.

Another question, most of my drive is on the NJ turnpike. I cruise about 75-80 MPH for most of the way. Would I be running on all 6 cylinders or just 3 at that speed?

Thanks to everyone for your input.

electrictroy · April 2005

(shrug) I'd still choose the Civic. You want a good *stiff* seat that supports your body & your back for those 3 hours... not a soft plushy seat typical of luxury cars. A stiff seat is better for long rides. (Plus the Civic HX is ~$15,000 cheaper.)

As for 3 cylinders, let me do some math:
torque = ~200 ft-lb @ 2500 w/ 6 cylinders
torque = ~100 ft-lb @ 2500 w/ 3 cylinders (guessing)

That's not a lot, but I think you can sustain 75mph & 3 cylinders. (For comparison, my 3-cylinder insight generates 85 ft-lb at that speed.) Best way to find out.... go test-drive the hybrid (without the salesman) on the interstate and experiment with the eco mode, to see how it works.

troy

nowakj66 · April 2005

I called my dealer to explore the purchase of a Honda Accord hybrid. His best deal crept up $1000 in the last month. Still under MSRP but not the deal it was. I think the tax incentive and the start of summer driving season has driven the price up. Anyone else seeing this?

backy · April 2005

Not much of a mystery--seen the price of gas lately? The tax incentive hasn't changed since last year. Maybe the positive reviews the HAH has been garnering has something to do with it.

porcoroso · April 2005

Hello,

This is my first post in Edmunds, so please forgive me if this has been discussed before. We are also very interested in the Accord Hybrid. We test drove it last weekend and liked it very much.

The one thing that is of concern to us is the loss of trunk space (approx.1/3 less than the regular Accord). Would anyone be able to tell me if the smaller trunk space is a significant inconvenience? I mean, can you still fit lugage, groceries, etc. You know, the normal family chores that you use your car for? What about tires? I'm thinking change-overs: how will we get four tires in the car for winter/summer (& vice versa) tires change overs.

If anyone can give us a little insight or your views, that'll be most helpful in our decision in purchasing this car (or get a regular Accord. Although we really want to get the Hybrid after experiencing the extra torque).

Thanks in advance.

gagrice · April 2005

how will we get four tires in the car for winter/summer (& vice versa) tires change overs.

Welcome to the Forum,
I would think that 4 tires would be tough to get in the trunk of a standard Accord. I would not want to put them in the back seat on that nice leather. best bet is throw them in the back of your PU truck and take them to the tire shop... dirty tires in a nice new trunk, yuck.

porcoroso · April 2005

Thanks gagrice,

Unfortunately, I don't have a PU, so that option is out for me. Guess I'll need to go back and check it out again. I was hoping someone that has the hybrid can share more information on the cargo capacity. I need to seriously consider this limitation before deciding on purchasing it since it'll be used as a family car.

backy · April 2005

Is this really a big deal? This is something you do twice a year. Get a couple of big plastic bags, slip two of the tires in them, and set them in the floor of the back seat. There are lots of cars that can't hold four full-sized tires in the trunk. It should not be a deal-killer if you really want the car.

gagrice · April 2005

Get a couple of big plastic bags, slip two of the tires in them, and set them in the floor of the back seat.

Good idea, why didn't I think of that. I have had a truck for the last 30 years and never had to haul tires in a car.

larsb · April 2005

"The climate control system utilizes aunique hybrid compressor that is both highly efficient and effective.."

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FirstDrives/articleId=103272

Prius does something similar but not in the same way.....Honda's technology is two years newer....

tempusvn · April 2005

"The climate control system utilizes a unique hybrid compressor that is both highly efficient and effective.."

That is a Marketing Blurb, not an Engineering Blurb, so they mean "Unique" in the Marketing sense. I'm sure it is uinque. It probably has a bolt hole in a different location.

"Prius does something similar but not in the same way.....Honda's technology is two years newer...."

I see nothing in what you've posted so far that supports either of those statements.

As far as I know the ONLY Electronic Scroll Compressor for Hybrid Auto A/C systems is the DENSO unit that was jointly developed with Toyota. It was developed specifically for use in hybrids, and has a couple of unique features. It integrates the Electronic Inverter Unit into the Compressor Unit (This was apparently a cooling challenge), and uses very little Coolant relative to older systems.

You can find a number of presentations floating around the web, but I'm not sure I can link to them from here. The linking rules here puzzle me.

But, they are almost all done by Ken Matsunaga (Denso) or Kiwamu Inui (Toyota) , and involve analysis of the energy savings over regular belt driven compressors. Bottom line is the Electronic Compressors are about 40% more efficient than older ones.

Honda is not nearly as rich as Toyota, and I seriously doubt they did anything like that in-house. If any other A/C company had anything comparable you can be sure they'd be presenting it and trumpeting it to high heaven, and that hasn't happened.

Denso/Toyota won an EPA Climate Protection Award for the design.

http://www.epa.gov/cppd/awards/winners_summaries4-20-04.doc

I'd love to see info on the Honda Unit, but dollars to donuts it's the Denso Unit.

It would be kind of funny if Honda was paying royalties to Toyota for the A/C.

electrictroy · April 2005

Everyone has them (points to house). I don't see why it's such a big deal.

troy

mlo · April 2005

So, do you think it would be worth it to buy a hybrid car for the 118 F Vegas weather? Or I would be better off with a regular Accord if I have to run my A/C most of the time?

dewey · April 2005

Extra $$ for HAH. Forget it! Not based on the news on the site below!

http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=102192

When the Accord 2.2 l diesel(hopefully with a manaul tranny) becomes available in N. America(hope it will happen soon) and price slightly more than the Accord i4, I will be among the first on the waiting list.

electrictroy · April 2005

The Accord's A/C won't add drag to the engine, because it's running off the battery. So you shouldn't see any MPG impact.

Insight & Civic... yes, the A/C would increase engine drag & decrease mpg.

troy

cohenfive · April 2005

the hah doesn't have a moonroof? what's that all about--structural rigidity issues, weight?

nowakj66 · April 2005

I would say weight and cost to Honda is what keeps the moon roof off the HAH. And to have something to add to the 2006 model besides refreshed tail lights.

Honda Accord Hybrid - worth the extra $$$?

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