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Future Crown Vic and Grand Marquis

13

Comments

  • peetiedogpeetiedog Member Posts: 37
    Well Ionosphere1, first let me congratulate you on your purchasing of a new 2008 Grand Marquis. :D Excitement in a new car is always a good thing, but I assure you, your new Grand Marquis will give you more comfort and reliability than any other car within $10,000 of your car's price. These cars are basically bullet proof. Your salesman's correct in that when you order the car, Ford allows you both 'Price Protection' and 'Incentive &/or Rate Protection'. There are a couple steps he has to perform to accomplish it for you, but it's basicly pretty easy for him to do, so you need not worry. The worse thing that could happen is that things stay as they are; if there was a price increase, you'd get the price in effect on the date of your order, and if a bigger incentive is offered, you'd get the better of the two. Normally the wait time on an ordered unit is about 6 weeks +/- a week or two, but around this time of year there's always a holiday shut down for about 2 weeks. There was also an additional delay caused by Ford moving all Town Car production to the St. Thomas plant where the Grand Marquis' are made, which could easily account for another couple weeks. But the wait will be well worth it. Check with your salesman from time-to-time for updates, he should be able to give you production & shipping updates on your car's e.t.a. The "must take delivery from dealer's stock by 01/02/2008" is there to prevent dealers and customers from trying to get their deals grand fathered back into expired programs. ;)

    As far as doing some minor improvements, I think it should go beyond just adding back-up sensors and an updated dashboard. For 2009 model they should make some substantial improvements, like a significant facelift (front of the A-pillar & rear of the C-pillar), maybe even new door skins, definately update the interior and dashboard (maybe add a Nav System & improved seating), and definitely some re-engineering (improved suspension, increased horsepower & torque, etc), and then add some more goodies (like memory seats, heated & cooled seats, Sirius radio and dual-zone climate control). Move the big Merc Cruiser a little more up-town. Make the car more of a Buick competitor. It doesn't have to be a total re-design, but give it some changes one can easily detect. Even old geezers and us near geezers like toys and luxury, and shouldn't have to defect to Chrysler, Buick, or Toyota (Avalon) to get it. Make the car look like a new car and give it a nice bump uptown, and a lot of people will trade their old big Merc's in for a new one. These are the kind of changes Ford could do for just a few thousand dollars per car. They could even pack in a little extra profit margin (into what are already profitable cars) and reduce incentives by a couple thousand dollars, which would make it more than economically feasible and attractive for them. These steps would give them a great stop gap car that can soldier on for another 3 or 4 years, until they can come up with a suitable world-class competitor. I'm sure sales would bump at least 25 - 50%, once again IF the car were done right. There are a lot of people out there who have 3 to 7 year old, low mileage, above average Grand Marquis', who are not willing to trade-in perfectly good cars in for another one that's no different than their current one. But give them a car that looks like a NEW car, and WHAM!, you got their attention and their open checkbooks. A person will bump from a $31/$32k car to a nicer, newer, $35/$36k new car, IF you give them a significant upgrade. Of course that means they would have to do an equivalent upgrade to the Town Car as well. But then I'm not sure Ford can handle that kind of success. Someone up in the Dearborne Ivory Tower is committed to the death of these venerable old buggies. Sorta like when they tried to kill the Mustang and replace it with the Probe, all the Mustang enthusiasts were up in arms; even Ford couldn't ignore how stupid that move was, no matter how blind they were. The worse part is that Ford can't seem to learn from their past mistakes, they just keep shooting themselves in the foot and choosing to roll down the 'Suicide Hill' to extinction. It seems the only reason they're still here is because they occasionally screw up and produce a winner. And that's too bad, because my whole family was and is a Ford family. Until recently, defection to another automaker was treason. And the worse part of that is, in my heart of hearts, I still want them to succeed. I hope somebody up there in the Dearborne Ivory Tower wakes up, and soon. Because if Ford dies, a little part of me dies with them. :cry: :sick:

    Anyway. Good luck to you Ionosphere1, I wish you the best with your new Grand Marquis. Pass on the good news every chance you get, to all who will listen. :shades:
  • ionosphere1ionosphere1 Member Posts: 50
    You seem to be quite knowledgeable. The salesman told me that when they receive an invoice for the car, that it would be about 2 weeks from then that they would get the car and he would call me when he gets the invoice.

    There is an item on the printout they gave me that I didn't notice until I got home. Something called LMDA Assessment for $700. Looking online, it appears to be some non-negiotiable fee related to advertising? Do you know about this $700 fee they tacked on? If it does have to do with advertising, then it is a ripoff, as Ford DOES NOT ADVERTISE the Grand Marquis.

    If Ford were to make big improvements for 2009, I would be jealous, as it won't help me.
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    There are a lot of people out there who have 3 to 7 year old, low mileage, above average Grand Marquis', who are not willing to trade-in perfectly good cars in for another one that's no different than their current one. But give them a car that looks like a NEW car, and WHAM!, you got their attention and their open checkbooks.

    Your statement applies to Town Car owners as well. If Jaguar had a dealer here, I would have purchased an XJ8 in 2004. Now, I'm considering an XJ8L, but still the nearest Jag dealer is in the next state.

    Saw a photo of a "new" proto type Town Car with suicide doors & I liked it a lot.
  • peetiedogpeetiedog Member Posts: 37
    Well ionophere1, Norsea Blue wouldn't be my 1st color choice (maybe my 4th), but I kinda like it as well. Don't worry about what marsha7 said (Nausea Blue???). There's an old saying in the car business, "There's an [non-permissible content removed] for every seat", heck, people even bought the Yugo cars when they came out back in the early 80's. And actually, Norsea Blue is a fairly decent selling shade of blue in many cars. I don't know from what part of the country you hail, but often there are regional differences in tastes, so what your dealer is telling you may be true, at least to some degree in your area or in his mind. I just can't see why a color that handsome is unsellable, darker blue shades typically sell well throughout the country, especially on sedate and formal sedan such as the Town Car. As far as the $3000 non-refundable deposit; that one's hard to believe. Most states don't allow for auto deposits to be non-refundable, and the few that I can think of, requires there to be a separately negotiated instrument that addresses the ''non-refundable' deposit only and signed by both the customer and dealer, so that it's not obscurely buried in some other paperwork. But I'm not an attorney and can't advise you on that, other than to tell you, if you're concerned about it check it out. Start with your state's DMV office, the state Attorney General's office, or the Better Business Bureau. Someone should be able to advise you about the legality of that in your state.

    As to the LMDA, what that means is Lincoln-Mercury Dealer Advertising association. Every brand of car has some sort of local or regional advertising association, and a dealer would be stupid not to be part of it. Once a part, the assessment is non-negotiable. They don't just run ads, sometimes they augment the manufacturer's national marketing programs with additional or different incentives designed especially for the needs of their local markets. It's sorta like "Buy a Ford Mustang convertible from any of your participating Miami (or Southern Florida) area Ford dealers, don't buy a Nissan or Chevy" type of adds. The 'dealer specific' adds are additional to that, and paid for by the dealer himself to say 'Buy your Mustang from Joe Blow Ford, not from John Doe Ford across town' type of ads. The 2 weeks to arrival from invoice date sounds about right for most American cars.

    I hate to say it, but I hope you end up jealous about the 2009 or 2010 models. If they make the significant changes I'd like to see them make, I'm going to trade my low mileage, pristine 2005 Lincoln Town Car Signature L in on a new one. If they don't make any significant changes, I'm gonna keep mine. I still can't believe that Ford deleted the Moon Roof, THX Sound, and Navigation System from the options list. Now how stupid is that? :mad:
  • peetiedogpeetiedog Member Posts: 37
    Yes euphorium, my statement applies primarily to Town Car owner, as I am one of those. I have a beautiful 2005 Town Car Signature L that is absolutely pristine with only 21,000 miles on it. I have 4 other vehicles in my household, 2 German high-end cars (a BMW and an Audi), an '06 Navigator and a 12 year old F150 Lariat Super Cab pick-up. I'm very fond of my BMW and my blood starts boiling every time I think about driving my Audi, but I'm absolutely in LOVE with my Town Car. She's like a beautiful and soft woman who cuddles me every time I drive her. If Ford doesn't significantly update the Town Car, my old girl is gonna be around a very long time, because they don't make-em like her anymore.

    The XJ8L is an extremely nice car. I've driven a number of XJs. The newer ones are much more reliable than the mid-late 90's vintage and older, and the 80's & early 90's vintage XJs could be a nightmare to own. Still no matter how good the car is now, I'd have a little trepidation about owning one if there was no dealer within at least 50-75 miles of me. But the Jag is one very sexy set of wheels, no doubt. Good Luck to you if you do get one. By the way, what state are you from, anyway.

    You say you saw a photo of a "new" Town Car with suicide doors? That one must have slipped past me. Tell me where you saw it, I'd love to go look at it and do a little research on it. If you have a link to it, please attach it. A while ago I saw some photo's on what was purported to be the possible reincarnation of the Lincoln Continental, and that had suicide doors. But that was pre-Mulally at Ford, and since that time a lot of stuff was axed and Ford changed product direction. I'm aware of the probability of Ford bringing their re-engineered Australian RWD platform over to the U.S., and the possibility of it being the replacement for the Panther (CV/GM/TC) platform.

    Keep in mind that Ford had to mortgage virtually every asset they own, just to get the meager resources they do have. Don't expect them to get too bold in their product approach. At least not until some of their new products coming on line hit pay dirt for them. The new Fusion/Milan/MKZ, the 500-Taurus/Montego-Sable, the Mustang variants. and the Edge/MKX have all been working better than they expected. A lot of the face lifted vehicles like the '08 Focus, the Escape/Mariner, and the Expedition/Navigator are doing very well. The coming new stuff like the Flex/MK?, the MKS, the all new F150, and the coming Hybrid Fusion/Milan & possibly MKZ should add a lot to the bottom line. Together they'd fund a lot of aggressive product offerings. In the meantime, a significant facelift for the CV/GM/TC, about the magnitude of the new Focus/Mariner/Navigator, would recharge that market segment and buy Ford the time they need to develop world class replacements. Facelifts only cost a fraction of a complete re-do, and these cars are already very profitable for Ford, this could not only buy them the time they need, it would make them even more profitable and protect a market segment they already own.
  • ionosphere1ionosphere1 Member Posts: 50
    The strange thing is, is I am unsure exactly what the color will look like. It looks completely different on different websites. Even the Mercury website has it look different depending on the page, and even on the initial GM page if you rotate the car, it gets darker or lighter. The brochure looks different too, so I find it confusing. As dark blue is my first choice, I'm sure I'll like it, but I wish I knew what color to expect. Some webpages it looks sky blue, others purplish, and others grayish blue. There were no cars in that color on the lot.
    I'm in Seattle, so I don't know why the blue would be a hard sell.
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    The photo I referred to is probably the modernized Continental seen prior to ARM leaving Boeing for Ford.

    It is coincidental that Ionosphere1 & I live in WA, he in the Peoples Republic of Puget Sound while I reside on the Columbia down river from Portland, 50 miles.

    That I know the dealer there from his racing days fifty years ago causes me to hesitate about bringing a needy XJ8 to his shop for repairs & Tacoma is really to far to flatbed a car. If only the local Lincoln dealer had a qualified Jag mechanic.

    I understand your feelings about the BMW & Audi. My son in law has a recent 3 or 5 Sedan, our daughter just bought an X5 & our son's Audi A8 is very comfortable and quick. Out of habit, I prefer our TC for road trips.

    66 Mustang GT Coupe, Ivy Green Metallic is my trophy car & garage queen having owned it for over 40 years. It hasn't been wet since '95. :)

    "For the Love of Cars" ;)
  • peetiedogpeetiedog Member Posts: 37
    That exact color was offered in 2005 on the Town Car and the LS. I own a black '05 Lincoln Town Car Signature L, and when I was shopping for my car, I considered Norsea Blue. It was a nice color, but I chose black because it was a more formal color, and I wanted formal elegance. Norsea Blue is not purplish at all, and is no where close to sky blue, but it does have a grayish tint to it. It's like mixing 50% charcoal gray & 50% medium blue together. You could call it dark gun-metal blue, or dark steel blue if you had to choose another name for it. It's a very handsome color.

    Your Lincoln-Mercury sales person must not be trying to hard to serve you, because putting your mind at ease about the color is easy. All Lincoln-Mercury dealers should have a photo album sized binder called a '2008 Mercury Product Portfolio' in their stores. Inside there is an 'Exterior Paint Colors' chart with small paint chips on it for every color offered on the 2008 Mercury product line-up, Those chips are 97-98% true to what the actual color will be, so should give you a reasonably acurate representation of what to expect. You should demand that he show you this information. Every store has had these product portfolios in store for about 3 months or more now. Ask him to print you out an order update, and while you're at it see if he'll provide you with a copy of the 'Dealer Order Retail Announcement' (DORA), tell him if neccessary he can hide or cover-up his cost numbers. This will allow you to see how the vehicle was ordered, so you can confirm colors and equipment, etcetera. You want to confirm your color soon, so as not to be stuck with the choice of taking a car you don't like, or loosing your $3000 non-refunable deposit. All production is down now, until just after New Years day; which means your car probably hasn't been built, and maybe not even locked in yet, so you may still be able to change it if necessary. Once the car is built, it should only take a couple weeks for transit time.

    Norsea Blue is not a hard color to sell in the Seattle Region. It's just that some dealers may not have had good success with certain colors, and so they don't stock them. Usually the hottest colors in cars like that are Black, Silver, and Champagne/Gold, with Dark Blue/Lite Blue/White all kinda vying for the 4th spot, with Red usually dragging the rear. If I were you I'd ask for a statement in writing about the deposit being non-refundable, signed by a manager. If you have not already signed one, DON'T. Clarify with them that you will loose your entire $3000 if you do not take the car, even if they later sell or dealer trade the car away? Obviously if they sell the car at a profit, their profit will immediately become $3000 greater because of them retaining your deposit. If they dealer trade the car away, other than transport costs, they're in a 'no harm - no foul' position. If they suggest that this is in fact the case, let them know that you are going to confirm the legality of this act with the Washington DMW, the Washington Attorney General's office, and the Better Business Bureau (BBB), then almost all the local TV & Radio new stations have some kind of 'Consumer Action Reporter' who'd probably love to sink their teeth into that one. Even if it is legal, $3000 seems like way too much of a penalty. Heck, from dealer's invoice to full MSRP, there's not $3000 of profit in the car. Try and negotiate some lesser, more reasonable amount, like $500 or maybe $1000 at the maximum. Sounds like this guy is gouging you. I'd bet that just having an attorney write a letter to the owner or general manager would solve that problem, and a simple legal letter probably wouldn't cost you more than a few hundred dollars.

    Whatever happens, good luck to you. The Grand Marquis is a great car, even if your salesman or dealership isn't so great.
  • peetiedogpeetiedog Member Posts: 37
    66 Mustang GT Coupe, Ivy Green Metallic is my trophy car & garage queen having owned it for over 40 years. It hasn't been wet since '95.

    NOW THAT'S WHAT I CALL A TROPHY CAR! :D If you could only see me right now, I'm turning green with envy. I would look soooo cool in that car. :shades:
  • ionosphere1ionosphere1 Member Posts: 50
    Hi:

    How did you get so knowledgable? Did you work in the industry? About the color, I didn't ask the saleman so I guess it's my fault. Before test driving it, I only looked on the Mercury website. It wasn't until later that I looked at lots of different sites and the brochure and noticed the color looked different. Any dark blue would be my first choice, so I'm not too concerned that I won't like it. Including this car, this will be my fourth vehicle in a row that I got in blue, so you can see that blue is my color. After giving deposit, I didn't get any "receipt" for it and saleman said they don't. Interestingly, they haven't cashed the check, because the $3,000 is still in my account and it's been about 6 weeks. Wonder why they didn't cash it? I'm not going to change my mind about the car and I'm going to give more than $3,000 for a down payment total. I wonder if they aren't cashing the check unless I tried to back out the deal?
  • ionosphere1ionosphere1 Member Posts: 50
    I'm unclear about this. During the warranty period, does maintenance such as oil changes have to be done by the dealer to make sure they can't screw you in denying any warranty work? Like could I have my oil changes done by places like Jiffy Lube during the warranty period and not worry if my car gets problems during warranty? I'm assuming that the dealer charges a lot more for everything like oil changes.
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    I cannot cite the suit or the source, but it is my impression that there was some kind of class action lawsuit in the last 10 years about that same subject...in other words, is the warranty void if routine maintenance is done by anyone other than the dealer, i.e. Jiffy Lube, Goodyear, Big 10 Tires, etc.

    I believe that the decision was for the little guy, that mean US, you and me...as long as the receipt shows that the oil was changed, the right oil was used, and the filter was changed, and it was within the mileage/time requirements of the manufacturer, then it must be accepted by the dealer if warranty work must be done...

    In other words, they can't refuse to perform warranty work if your oil was changed somewhere else, or your tires were rotated somewhere else, etc.

    But only the dealer can perform warranty work and be held responsible for it...if you take your car down to Brake-O to have new wheel bearings installed because Ford had a recall, the work done by Brake-O is not considered under warranty, and if anything goes wrong, Ford would not be responsible to repair (for free) any work done improperly by Brake-O...
  • peetiedogpeetiedog Member Posts: 37
    Yes ioonosphere1 I have worked in the industry for more than 35 years, on both the manufacturer's side and the dealership side.

    You won't be disappointed in your Norsea Blue Grand Marquis. You should have gotten a receipt for your deposit, anytime you give anyone money, you're entitled to an acknowledgment that they have received it, and what it was for. There's an old saying, "What separates the men from the boys and the ladies from the little girls, is CASH"; they asked for a deposit to cement your commitment to the deal, so I'm surprised that they haven't cashed it. The great thing about cash is, you can always give it back, but you can't always get it. I wouldn't worry about it though, because should they cash it, your cancelled check can always act as your receipt, and you can always add whatever additional down payment you wish.

    Marsha7 is correct in that there were legal actions regarding manufacturers tying warranty coverages to a mandate for dealership maintenances. But that was much more than 10 years ago. And her answer is correct. The manufacturers can require a minimum standard of maintenance services be performed for your manufacturers warranties to remain in effect, but they cannot require that those services be performed at the dealership. You can in fact perform those services yourself, as long as you are able to provide receipts that these services were performed, or that you purchased the acceptable SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) approved parts and fluids along with date logs showing when the appropriate services were performed. In the absence of such proof, approval of warranty repairs could be denied. Marsha7 is also correct in that manufacturers will only pay for their dealers to perform warranty repairs, with only very rare exceptions; and will only guarantee the quality of work performed by their dealers. All maintenance requirements, including types of oils, fluids and filters, can be found in the manufacturers maintenance manual that comes with your new car.

    Most manufacturers have come to realize that there's a lot of maintenance, wear, and repair work that their dealers are loosing, and have been doing a lot to help lower the cost of those basic services to the owners of their products. They realize that the dealerships have a much higher cost of doing business than the local Jiffy Lube, Super Tune and Big 10 Tire stores. They often sit on the most expensive real estate in town, and usually have factory trained (often unionized) technicians who are paid a lot more (often $25-$35 per hr. or more) + benefits, and they provide expensive specialized tools & computers that many places don't have. It's hard for dealers to offer specialists in all areas and still compete with the Jiffy Lube down the street, who may have recent high school auto shop grads working as lube techs making $8-$9 an hour. So they are encouraging and even subsidizing many of the basic services, to the point where the dealer's prices are very close to those offered by most of these after-market places. It's good for the dealer, the manufacturer, and the customer. The dealer wins because, the customer will often have other services & repairs done there, besides they get into the habit of coming to the dealer for all services and repairs. The manufacturer wins because, if the quality of repairs are better customer satisfaction with the brand rises, besides the more customers visit their dealer, the more they're exposed to the brand and the probability of repeat vehicle purchases increase. And finally the customer wins because, theoretically they're getting higher quality repairs that are hopefully fixed right the 1st time more often, besides other looming concerns that the customer may not know about can often be caught before the problem becomes a problem (like recalls, open technical service bulletins, and other growing service issues). Too often the Jiffy Lube guy doesn't care that your brake pads are only at 15% and may soon cause rotor damage, or the Big 10 Tire guy is not aware of an electrical component recall or a technical service bulletin out on your transmission.

    Needless to say, I'm a strong proponent of dealership servicing of your vehicle. The good thing with Ford is that they offer probably the industries best pre-paid maintenance plan available, ESP Premium Maintenance Plan. Plans are available out to 6 years or 100,000 miles. It still baffles me as to why most dealers never even offer it to their customers. They always offer the extended warranties, which can be a good thing as well (just make sure you get the manufacturer's branded warranty, a little more expensive but usually fewer holes in the coverage). But the pre-paid maintenance plans will cover money you're going to spend anyway, and usually your out of pocket expense may be as little as 50%-65% of what you'd spend on a pay as you go basis. The Ford ESP Premium Maintenance Plan besides covering all factory scheduled maintenance, will also cover most wear items (e.g.: Brake Pads & Linings, Wiper Blades, Shocks, Spark Plugs, Engine Belts & Hoses, etc.), additionally it will usually cover all taxes, hazardous waste disposal fees, it's good at any Ford or Lincoln/Mercury dealership and it's transferable. Virtually every finance source will gladly add it into the financing. Now that's the best way to keep your maintenance cost down. Typically you can negotiate pricing on your pre-paid maintenance plan just as you can on you car.

    Just remember, you are in the driver's seat. If you don't understand what's being told to you by your service advisor, have him or her re-explain it over and over until you do understand it. The only stupid question is the one that goes un-asked. I'd talk to the different service advisors and pick one who's personality is acceptable to you. Service advisors are like salesmen, except they don't sell cars or parts, they sell service and repairs. If you feel uncomfortable about what's being suggested to you, have them explain it to your satisfaction or get a 2nd opinion. Stick with your favorite advisor if you can, even if it means waiting a few extra minutes. They usually have a small commission or bonus component to their pay plan, and will often reward your loyalty by seeking out extra considerations for you when a gray area exists, expediting your repair order, or getting extra services for free (e.g.: loaner cars, discounts, etc.). Besides, they get to know you and your car's history. Often the manufacturer performs customer satisfaction surveys, and those surveys are critical to their ratings, bonuses, and raises. Let them know you will reward their active interest in you and your car with exemplary surveys and loyalty. If all else fails, there's always another Ford or Lincoln/Mercury dealer who would love your service dollars, even the factory pre-paid ones.

    Anyway, hope you had a merry Christmas and here's wishi
  • ionosphere1ionosphere1 Member Posts: 50
    Peetiedog,

    Thanks for all the great information. My first choice would be to get everything done at the dealer and avoid any possible problems with warranty work, which hopefully won't be needed in the first place. If they offer some kind of pre-paid discount on stuff like oil changes, I might be interested. For an extended warranty, I think Consumer Reports says they are a bad deal. Actually, they say anything the dealer tries to sell you after the sale is a bad deal for the buyer, otherwise they would have talked about it before the sale as a selling point..
  • peetiedogpeetiedog Member Posts: 37
    ionosphere1,

    You're welcome. If you can find a dealer you like and can build trust in, you'll probably be better off getting all your services and repairs done there. If you don't want to pay a large premium for your services at the dealer, you'll have to do one of two things: 1) Look for manufacturer/dealer discount coupons or price shop for the required services and then negotiate the pricing offered on a per case basis (hard work); or 2) Buy Ford's pre-paid maintenance plan 'ESP Premium Maintenance Plan', it represents your best value in maintenance & wear items coverage. Ford does not pay it's dealers retail prices on warranty or service claims, and they know that product satisfaction is higher when there's a 'gas & go' relationship, so they actually subsidize the plan's price so dealers can make a little money but still offer real customer value. In my experience the total you'd pay would probably equate to as little as 50-60% of what you'd pay over time at dealer retail prices, for the same services, and roughly 70-80% of independent budget shop prices.

    Vehicle costs are basically divided into 5 categories; Acquisition, Operating, Maintenance, Wear, and Repair. Acquisition, is the cost of purchasing, cash, payments, interest, etcetera. Operating, is the cost of gas, insurance, registration, etcetera. Maintenance, is the cost of oil changes, filters & flushes, rotations & adjustments, etcetera. Wear, is the cost of replacing things that just wear out, like tires, brakes, shocks, belts & hoses, etcetera. And Repair, is the cost of fixing defects, damage, things that should have worked but didn't, or broke, etcerera. Aquisition is a choice, Operating is a given, Maintenance & Wear are a necessary protective choice, and Repair is a possible reality. Ford's pre-paid maintenance & wear plan is a way of managing and capping a neccessary expense, to avoid future repair issues. Be smart, look into it. last time I checked, Consumers Reports wasn't paying anybody's maintenance or repair bills.

    Don't get me wrong, I hold Consumers Reports in very high regard. They are right in that if you have the financial dicipline and wherewithall, extended warranties on any item are usually a waste of money. They are usually heavily laden with profit for the seller. But that's only one perspective. Warranties are like insurance. You're betting the insurance company that something bad is going to happen, and they're betting you that it's not going to happen, and they're giving you odds. All insurance is like this. Every time nothing bad happen, you loose, and you forfeit your bet, your monthly or annual premium. Every time something bad does happen, you win, and the insurance company pays what they bet (the covered loss). Auto insurance, health insurance, life insurance, and so on all work on the same principal as mechanical breakdown insurance, often referred to as extended warranties. If someone took Consumers Reports position as the gospel truth, then no one should buy any insurance of any kind. But there's another perspective. If you cannot afford, or don't want to risk taking the loss, it's better to insure against it. Another way of putting it is, 'It's better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it'. Warranties are like any other insurance, there are good companies and not so good companies; and within each, there are good policies and bad. There's no one size fits all policy that I know of. It's like anything else. Do you homework, assess your risk tolerance, shop around, and then negotiate. My personal opinion is that the manufacturers warranties are the most expensive, but they are generally the best. They have the most to loose if they piss you off. Keep in mind that Ford's name is on the Ford extended warranties. So if they don't pay a legitimate claim presented to them, or hide behind loop-holes, someone may choose never to buy another Ford product again as a result, as well as bad mouthing them along the way. So rather than have that, most manufacturers charge a little more for their policies, but offer plans that have fewer holes in the coverages, so they won't have as many occasions to need to deny a claim. In fact, they often approve claims that should be denied, for customer satisfaction reasons.

    So if you feel uncomfortable about taking on the financial risk of not having the protection, buy an extended warranty. Just don't get cheap. Buy a manufacturers plan, make sure you understand the coverages and choices, pick the plan that best suits you need, negotiate to pay a reasonable profit margin to the dealer, and call it a day. Then hope it is a waste of money. I don't know anyone who wants something to go wrong so they can USE their insurance, especially not their life insurance. And remember opinions are like [non-permissible content removed]-holes, everybody's got one. Consumers Reports has theirs, and now you have mine as well. Always seek out more than one opinion. Besides, if you don't get a warranty because Consumers Reports say not to, and something goes wrong, try submitting the bill to them and see if they'll pay it for you.

    Lastly consider this. The best Ford extended warranty plans should retail for approximately of 4-5% of the car's MSRP (rule of thumb) for a 6 yr./75,000 mile plan, and 7-8% of the MSRP (rule of thumb) for a 7yr./100,000 mile plan. So a 6 yr./75k mi. Ford Premium Care extended warranty on a $30k MSRP Grand Marquis, should retail in the neighborhood of $1200 - $1500, but remember, NEGOTIATE. A pittance compared to the cost of a major repair, like an engine, a transmission, or major electrical malfunction. Keep in mind, almost everything on today's cars are computer controlled. If you're buying a $1000 washing machine, and they're trying to sell you a 3 or 4 year warranty extension for $150 or $200, that's 15-20% of the cost of the purchase. I can afford to take the risk of self insuring in that case.

    A lot of the other stuff is not always worth considering. Credit Life & Credit Disability insurance is usually not worth buying from a dealer. Contact somebody like Met Life or Prudential if you want to buy life or disability insurance. Pin stripes and fuzzy dice for the window mirror :P , amoungst a host of other things, are just a rip. So stay away, 'Just Say No!
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    a scientific opinion, but the ONE advantage, IMO, to buying credit life or disability from the dealer is if the buyer is virtually uninsurable due to pre-existing health issues, and the quasi group policies from the dealer almost guarantee being issued...

    The same with mortgage life insurance...while not the best move financially, if you cannot get cheaper insurance from an independent agent, buying mortgage life from the lender almost guarantees a policy being issued, so that if you die, your surviving spouse at least has a paid off home w/o a mortgage, making the post-death transition a little easier since they do not have to worry about becoming homeless 2 months after someone's death...
  • peetiedogpeetiedog Member Posts: 37
    Marsha7,

    It depends on which state the LA&H policies are being sold in. I'm not familiar with the laws in all states, but I am familiar with the laws in about 20 states, as one of my recent job responsibilities for a major 'captive' finance company was in the marketing and training arena. The M&T area I worked most with was F&I, especially since I held state licenses for L&D as well as F&C, along with my NASD registration. In many of the states I'm familiar with, there are still escape clauses for the Insurance companies; and for those that don't allow for underwriting selection, the premiums are so heavily loaded, that all but the most uninsurable would probably reject the purchase offer. Especially if they new exactly what they were buying, and the claims process especially as pertaining to credit disability. I have been out of that loop for a little while, so things may have changed, but I don't think much, if any at all. And then things may be different in your state.

    I can't speak to the mortgage industry, other than to say that most product types tend to follow the same trend lines. My guess would be that most people who think they are uninsurable, might find that they in fact are insurable. There are companies out there who make a market in medium, high, and very high risk applicants, and their policies are rated to accommodate the risk. They may find that there is a policy available to them that offers level coverage for a similar or smaller premium, as opposed to declining coverage for that level or increasing premium. I grant you, that those who are truly uninsurable in the open market, may not have much choice. But most people who buy that stuff are not uninsurable, they are just uninformed, misled, or too lazy to shop around.

    Anyway, I don't really want to discuss life and disability insurance. I'd rather get back to discussing cars. I just wanted to help my amigo from the upper north-west to make some informed choices. Nuff said on the subject as far I'm concerned.

    Now what would you like to see Ford do with the CV/GM/TC trio going forward?
  • ionosphere1ionosphere1 Member Posts: 50
    Why does it take 8-12 weeks to get the car? I wonder how many people, unwilling to wait so long, end up buying a different car instead? Is it due to this being an unpopular model?
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    It takes about six weeks to order and actually program the car for manufacture...two more weeks to start up the plant to make your car and your car only...then it takes another six weeks to locate a geezer who can only drive 50 miles per day before needing to stop for the night...assuming you live 1000 miles from the assembly plant, that adds another 4 weeks (5 weekdays x 4 weeks is 20 days; 20 days x 50 miles per geezer day is 1000 miles)...

    OK, I made all this up...:):):):):)
  • peetiedogpeetiedog Member Posts: 37
    Under normal situations it takes between 5-7 weeks from order to arrival for a new vehicle. It used to take 6-9 weeks back in the late 90's to get a car, but Ford has been working to shorten that time frame. A lot of it depends on how quickly the dealer gets the order into the system, whether the dealer has available allocation or not, whether there are commodity holds or not, and sometimes there is higher demand than supply issues (e.g.: Escape/Mariner Hybrids), or production stops.

    In the case of the Grand Marquis and Crown Victoria, there are a couple reasons. Normally there are production stops around the Christmas/New Year holidays, as union contracts require much higher wages for Sundays and holiday work (e.g.: Christmas Eve & Christmas, New Year's Eve & New Year's day). So most factories close down for the 2 or 3 weeks around that time, since as many as 6 or 7 of those days would require premium pay anyway, and it allows them to bring in mechanical engineering teams to service and adjust the production machinery. So there goes a few weeks of your wait time anyway. Also, the Wixom (Michigan) plant that produced Town Car was shut down, and Town Car production was moved to St Thomas (Canada) plant where Crown Vic & Grand Marquis is produced. So CV & GM production had to be interrupted while Town Car tooling was put in place. That caused several weeks of delayed production. As I understand it, the plant's full production starts again this coming Monday. So barring some other problem (like the dealer's lack of allocation, which I doubt), you should probably see your car arriving at the dealership within 4-6 weeks or so.

    And for your edification, if someone wants and orders a Grand Marquis, they probably wouldn't end up buying a different car. It is nearly impossible to find a new RWD, large car, similar to the Grand Marquis; especially a very loaded car for well under $30k after incentives. For the few who cannot wait, the dealer can always dealer-trade to get a unit similar to what the person wants. On a car like this, in relatively well populated areas, there are usually many dozens of stock units to choose from within a 100 mile radius of a given store. Often a dealer will absorb the cost of transporting the vehicle, to get the sale today rather than in 2 months; besides, that customer that gets the itch, might go looking around elsewhere, and another dealer may end up scratching his itch, and he end up in a similar car sooner. So it amazes me that your dealer didn't at least make an attempt to locate you a Norsea Blue Grand Marquis, and remove you from the market.
  • ionosphere1ionosphere1 Member Posts: 50
    If you do an inventory search of dealers around here, you'll see a lack of inventory for Grand Marquis. Most have none. Maybe dealer already knew that so didn't even bother looking.

    Another thing I'm wondering about is why the Lincoln Town Car is almost double the price of the Grand Marquis. Aren't they basically the same car? Is the Town Car that much more luxurious to justify the difference?

    I also find it odd that as the $5,500 rebate deadline of 1/2/2008 passed, they just advanced the expiration date to 1/8/2008. Strange to just add 6 days, isn't it? I know for awhile last year they had a $7,000 rebate on the Grand Marquis. I'm hoping they increase the rebate before my car is ready so that I'll get a bigger rebate.
  • ionosphere1ionosphere1 Member Posts: 50
    I was wondering about the 6-CD Audiophile option, which I am getting. The model I testdrove did not have that option, so I never got to hear one and am hoping it is real good, as sound quality is important to me. Most cars appear to have a brandname stereo, but the Mercury Grand Marquis doesn't and there is no brand marking on the unit. Because of this I have been unable to find any reviews of the unit and I have spent a lot of time looking.

    Do you know who manufactures it and also who manufactures the speakers and no of any reviews of them?
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Another thing I'm wondering about is why the Lincoln Town Car is almost double the price of the Grand Marquis. Aren't they basically the same car? Is the Town Car that much more luxurious to justify the difference?

    IIRC the GM/CV have a solid rear axle and the Lincoln has independent rear.

    -mike
  • peetiedogpeetiedog Member Posts: 37
    I don't know about up in your area, but down here in my area for example, there are about 60 Grand Marquis' on dealers lots right now, and 5 of them are Norsea Blue. Most fairly well equipped. It only takes a few minutes to do an inventory search, so I don't understand why a guy wouldn't at least look to see what was out there; but who knows, maybe he did, and there wasn't anything close to your specifications.

    The Town Car is NOT double the price of the Grand Marquis. A loaded '08 Grand Marquis can sticker out at almost $32,000, while it's impossible to get an '08 Town Car to sticker for even $50,000. So it's priced more like 50% more. Even back on the '07 model Town Car, you'd have been hard pressed to get that car to price out at $53,000, and even that's on a car with Navigation System and THX Sound System. The Town Car is engineered to be significantly more luxurious than the Grand Marquis, much less NVH (Noise, Vibration & Harshness), and significantly more available toys (i.e.: Pwr. Open/Close Trunk, HID Headlamps, Climate Controlled Seats, Memory Seats, Dual-Zone Climate Control, 17" Wheels, etc.), and more. But value is in the eye of the buyer; there are some who feel the image boost of the Town Car alone is worth the extra money.

    Often Christmas/New Year incentive programs are extended a few extra day, because the bean counters need to assess the market conditions and the size of their marketing purse. Most often the extension is not more than 2 or 3 days. In this case, I guess they felt they needed more research time. Production capability has been reduced, especially since the Town Car allocation will be eating up some of the plant's capacity, so I doubt that you'll see the $7,000 rebate level again, if any time soon. But as I informed you before, generally Ford will honor whatever the incentives were at the time of your order, or at the time of your vehicle delivery, but not any of those in between. Talk to your salesman about that. But don't worry about it, whatever it is, it is. Just take what's there and enjoy your new car. Don't worry about what could have been.

    I believe the Audiophile Sound System is made by Ford itself, but I'm not sure. Ford actually has a very robust sound systems production capability. Audiophile was originally created by Alpine, which is a high end European producer of audio sound systems. Unfortunately, the audience for cars like the Grand Marquis, don't tend to be as brand conscious as the yuppier crowd. The Town Car is construed to be in the luxury segment, and branded sound systems are just part-and-parcel of those segments. Hopefully now you have enough extra ammunition to keep you busy researching.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Ah ha NVH, more sound proofing material. Forgot that.

    -mike
  • ionosphere1ionosphere1 Member Posts: 50
    Thanks for all the information. Regarding inventory, I myself recently looked on the Mercury website and looked at inventory of about 10 dealers in this part of the state: my dealer had 1 (the one I testdrove) and none of the oher 9 had a single LS and only 1 other dealer had 2 GS's. I checked this about a week ago so it's probably still the same.
  • peetiedogpeetiedog Member Posts: 37
    What part of Washington are you in? Must be western Washington, near Spokane and Coeur D'Alene, ID area. If so, the dealers out in that area that carry Mercury are usually smaller and are combo stores (Ford/Mercury or Ford L/M). Otherwise one would think that in the greater SeaTac region (from Bellingham, WA down to Salem, OR, and from Aberdeen, WA over to Walla Walla, WA), there would be more of a selection available. There are multiple times more than 10 Mercury points in that region, and the dealer can run a regional locate as quickly as a cross town locate. For a customer who's anxious to have his car sooner, I would. If the exact car exists, maybe the customer would be willing to pay $100-$150 more in transport charges, to have the Seattle dealer trade to get the car from the Portland dealer. Then he could have the car within a day or two, rather than in 3 or 4 months. Also the dealer can have the sale today, rather than months from now; and take the chance that the customer becomes disillusioned and changes his mind on the whole purchase. Maybe it would be worth the dealer splitting the transportation charges, as a smaller bird in the hand may be worth more than a larger bird in the bush. Besides, customers shouldn't have to search out surrounding inventory, not when dealers have the tools to search more efficiently. But, that's how I think; maybe my thinking is warped. I'm just an old factory trained guy who thinks that customers still appreciate service.
  • ionosphere1ionosphere1 Member Posts: 50
    I looked at the inventory of all the dealers Mercury's website included for my Seattle zip code, which showed dealers near the coast and Canada too. Is a rare car in these parts. My dealer didn't even have a model for me to see when I went there. I had to wait a few weeks them to have one and they said it took them a few months to get it.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I bet they have a ton in FLA :)

    -mike
  • ionosphere1ionosphere1 Member Posts: 50
    As predicted, at exactly 9:00 Pm my time (midnight Michigan time), they changed the special offer deal, as they had to, as the date passed. Interestingly,they significantly decreased the interest rate for the Grand Marquis, but they did not change the dollar amount of $5,500 ;-(. Wonder why they did not increase the dollar option with it. Also strange that for the Sable, the interest rsate is a lot higher. And now the date's been changed to 3/31/2008. I still figured out that even though the interest rate is much lower, I'm still better off to take the cash reduction instead, even for 60 months.
  • ionosphere1ionosphere1 Member Posts: 50
    http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/editorials/ford-death-watch-40-mercury-rip/

    If what he says is true, everyone better buy a Grand Marquis like me while you still can!!!!

    Don't know what he's talking about though regarding questionairre and only 4 vehicles. He's wrong on both counts.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    and the recently enacted 35 mpg by 2020 law are what will finally sink the CV/GM/TC. I'd be really surprised if production continues beyond the '09 model year. By then, there will be enough late model, low mileage used ones on the road to satisfy the ever diminishing demand. For proof, look at resale values for the '03-'07 models. Not very good, and proof that demand is declining.

    Think about it; expensive gasoline will make these cars, rugged as they are, uneconomical for law enforcement and taxi service. For limo-type service the Taurus/Sable/(new for '09) Lincoln MKS will be better overall choices in the expensive gas era.
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    expensive gas era. ??

    That gas is expensive is no more true than it was 40 years ago when it was .35 a gallon.
    If your income has not risen at least 10 times in the last 40 years, it is not the price of gas that is the problem.

    Everything else has gone up. Why should gas be exempt from price increases? ;)
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    Well, you make a good point there, but from what I've read, oil at $103/barrel just surpassed the old record established in '81, in inflation adjusted terms. I suppose much depends on how you want to look at it, but I think record high - and rising - gas prices will prove to be a strong headwind for the old body-on-frame big Fords.

    I don't presume to know where gas prices will top out, or whether they'll stay high, but it's a virtual given that demand from China, India, and other emerging countries will continue to support relatively high prices.
  • peetiedogpeetiedog Member Posts: 37
    You're right, the CV/GM/TC trio probably won't continue beyond the '09 model year, and definitely not past the '10 model, but it's not due to the gas mileage. It's due to another short-sighted decision from the ivory tower's executive round table. I'd be one of the first to admit that the Panther Trio in it's current configuration, is too long in the tooth to be a viable long term product offering. I just happen to believe that a nice facelift, a mild interior re-do, and a few up-dated gizmos would allow the old girls to soldier on for another 3-5 years (providing a sizeable up-tic in sales), until a new (worthy) rwd replacement could be brought to market. There hasn't been a significant face-lift in a decade, so they were long overdo, yet kept selling pretty well given the lack of attention afforded them, if you ask me. But alas, the time has come to bid adieu. Ford decided to move away from rwd platforms, in favor of fwd & awd. At the same time, GM and Chrysler developed a newfound affection for rwd, especially for their higher end cars, as did Lexus and Infiniti. And we all know what BMW, Jag and Benz feels about rwd; even Audi is moving to a rear-bias to their Quattro AWD system (especially for their high performance cars) to more simulate rwd predominant balance. And now, even Ford has recognized that it needs to re-develop more rwd offerings (duh!), and have started looking at their new Australian rwd platform for a possible North American adaptation. My question is: Ford, why give up your rear-wheel drive market to your competitors (even if for only a couple years), only to have to come back later and spend lots of money trying to win it back? Doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Sounds like another of those famous Ford blunders in the making to me.

    Oh, and by the way hpmctorque, have you looked at the fuel economy ratings on the Taurus/Sable and even the Fusion/Milan/MKZ (no #'s on the MKS yet) compared to the CV/GM/TC? There's only between 2-4 mpg difference. And while that can represent a 10-15% improvement, many people would gladly trade that small of a difference for the other benefits the old Panther-girls offer. Things such as balance, durability, ride quality, stability, handling, safety, lower NVH, lower maintenance (especially front-end work), etcetera. When I take my Town Car on a road trip, let's say an 800+ mile round trip from Napa, CA to Los Angeles or Las Vegas. I average upwards of 21-22 mpg for the trip (and I average about 75+ mph trip speeds). Once I rented a Ford Fusion V6 for a trip to Las Vegas, thinking I'd save a lot of gas money. I only averaged 24 mpg for the trip, the ride quality while nice for a small car, was not even close to my Town Car. A lot buzzier, plus I felt a lot more exhausted and wound-up when I got there and when I got back home. The extra $13.00 I saved on the round trip (about 4 fewer gallons of gas @ $3.19 per gal), wasn't worth the lack of comfort, frustration and stress that came with the smaller, buzzier confines. What some people don't take into consideration is that those smaller, higher revving engines have to work a little harder than the loping, long legged, large car V8 engines when it comes to hill climbing and passing. And I don't believe they come anywhere close to the big, slower turning V8's when it comes to longevity either. I'm convinced that my Town Car's life expectancy is easily 250,000 or even 350,000 miles or more. I'd just like an updated version as would a lot of other people I know and talk to. And as far as gas goes, most of the big, comfy car buffs, like me, don't mind spending $200 - $250 a year in feeding costs for the benefits of a traditional, full sized rwd luxury car. Also I'm of the mind that there's no substitute for extra steel around you if in a major accident (say Town Car vs Accord in a head-on).

    As for as law enforcement is concerned, there is no substitute for rugged, well balanced, reliable, durable and economical (maintenance & repair wise). Suspensions, steering racks, transaxles (transmissions), tire wear, cooling systems, and more on the Taurus for example, would cost law enforcement agencies far more than the additional fuel charges of the Crown Vic cruisers. California Highway Patrol (and other state's trooper agencies), along with large municipal law enforcement agencies (like L.A.P.D. and L.A. County S.O.) have intensive endurance testing programs for their police cruisers. And year after year, the old fuddy-duddy Ford Crown Vic just keeps on coming out on top, in spite of it's age and weaknesses. Besides, when you're responding to an officer in distress' call for back-up, or when in pursuit of a fleeing felony suspect (jumping over curbs & bottoming out on road dips), I don't think anyone is too concerned about another couple miles-per-gallon. Besides they're the government, they just pass the costs on to us. Taxi services are just as concerned or more about durability, longevity and maintenance costs, which once again tend to favor the good ole Crown Vic. And as far as limo & livery services are concerned, how many front wheel drive stretched limo's have you seen lately, even Cadillac DeVilles (DHS); they're almost as rare as stretched Hummers. Even the livery trade doesn't want fwd cars. They cost too much for maintenance & wear, reliability & durability is far worse, and comfort & ride quality is nowhere near as good. Next time you see a few limo drivers take your own unscientific poll, you'd be hard pressed to find 10% of the owners & operators who'll disagree with that. These people are business people, they don't buy Town Cars because they're all Lincoln enthusiasts; they buy them because they are the best product & value on the market for what they need. My question is: Why, why, why Ford, would you give up this market that has become your birthright, only to have to try and fight to get a piece of it back later? I just don't get it. The MKS, as nice as it is, will not really replace the Town Car with the limo & Livery market, sure you'll see a few stretched MKS' and executive livery cars (sort of a fashion statement, like a stretched Navigator). I think the Chrysler 300 will probably get the lion's share of that market, and Cadillac is working on a full size rwd vehicle that I'm sure will eventually take a piece of that market as well. When Ford does finally bring a viable rwd car to market 4 or 5 years from now, they'll have to fight to get back into that market, which will be expensive; and do you really expect Chrysler and GM to just hand their market share back to Ford, or do think they'll fight like the dickens to keep it?
  • peetiedogpeetiedog Member Posts: 37
    The biggest reason oil is so high, is that among other things, it's priced in U.S. dollars. Have you noticed the beating the U.S. dollar has taken lately? It takes more U.S. dollars to buy just about any foreign commodity, or to take a vacation abroad, or just about anything else. It makes coming to America, or better yet buying up America very cheap for foreigners. If our currency were to strengthen by say 20% over the next year, oil prices would drop back to about $85/barrel or so. And then there's also world unrest in oil producing regions, there's heavy speculation, fear based hoarding, emerging markets competing for resources (India & China), and then there's manipulation by OPEC and the oil conglomerates. No doubt it's demand driven as well, and we need to become better stewards of our resources and the our children's futures.

    Unfortunately, I believe we're being treated like drug addicts. The drugs are oil based products (gasoline, diesel, heating oil, etc.), the consuming public are the addicts, the oil companies are the pushers, and the oil producing nations are the growers & suppliers. The unfortunate part is that the government is in partnership with the suppliers and pushers, and their take is the taxes on the oil and gas. We need to change our habits, yes; but we need to take our nation back. Many of the billions our government is spending on the war in Iraq could be better spent on shoring up our infrastructure here at home, investing in the education of our youth, and subsidizing and partnering with U.S. auto makers, universities and research industries, in developing alternative technologies and sources of energy that would lead to our becoming energy independent. Now that I consider is in our national security interests. Unless the grand plan is to annex Iraq as our 51st state. Then that would solve our energy independence for a long time into the future, and P. M. Nuri Al-Maliki can become governor and the Iraqi people would be U.S. citizens; at least then we'd have a lucid reason for needing to clean up the mess we've got over there.

    But as my friend euphonium was saying, it's not just the price of gas that's the problem, it's also the price of everything else (a lot of it tied to the price of gas) and the fact that incomes have not kept pace with inflation. Here in California, back in 1971. I was a young man with a young wife and new-born baby. Gas averaged about 35 cents p/gal (under 25 cents during gas wars), minimum wage was $1.65 p/hr. (fortunately as a young management trainee I was making a whopping $675 per/month), my rent on a small 2 bedroom apartment was $125 p/mo, and a good sized Baby Ruth candy bar was 10 cents. Today, gas is $3.50 per gallon (10x incr.), min. wage is $8.00 p/hr. in California (less than 5x incr.), a friend owns the building that my old apartment is in and he rents that same apartment for $1850 p/mo. (almost 15x incr.), and I saw a similar sized Baby Ruth candy bar in a convenience store the other day for $1.40 (14x incr., they call it a jumbo size now). Gas at 10x the 1971 price seems very high to most people (myself included), but as euphonium was saying, it's not as bad as with many other things or as bad as it could be. Hey 14x or 15x increase on gas would put us easily at $4.90 - $5.25 p/gal. (inflation adjusted of course). Just be glad it gas is a better bargain than Baby Ruth candy bars. And let's not consider the inflation rate of higher education, taxes, or health care. Then gas would really look like a bargain. Fortunately my income increased by about 25x 1971 rate, but it sure don't feel like I'm 25x better off, in fact I know I'm not. :cry: I wish it were 1971 again, things were so much simpler then. :sick:
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    $675 X 25 = $16,875 a month for income. That is great in my book. I like to see others do well. Congratulations on your success. ;)
  • peetiedogpeetiedog Member Posts: 37
    Maybe I should've said almost 25x, but it doesn't feel like 25x. Keep in mind, I live in California, you have to make twice as much to live half as well. Yea, I guess I'm still doing pretty well, all things considered; but my partners (the state & federal governments) are taking a much bigger slice of the pie than they used to. My taxes will choke a horse to death. :cry: :mad: :sick:
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    difference in the dollar, there si still a part of me that believes the if (when) the US economy takes a cyclical downturn, we will be buying fewer things from China...when we buy fewer things they will be making fewer things and there won't be as many employed Chinese to buy that expensive gasoline...without the demand from Chindia (China and India, not my phrasing, but quite accurate) gas prices will fall, IMO, simply because Arabs can't eat it...or, put another way, if the US sneezes, China will get the flu...

    Any thoughts on this master theory of mine???
  • peetiedogpeetiedog Member Posts: 37
    Great theory, in theory; but in practice, the theory won't work, at least as far as Chindia (catchy, I like it) goes. The biggest problem is that most things that are made in China and India, are not made here; and if they are, the prices are much higher. And most Americans will almost always choose the cheaper product, rather than vote with their wallets for their own American industries & American workers. Most domestic manufacturing sectors have long since been decimated by foreign countries, like Japan, Taiwan, N. Korea and the Philippines. Now here comes China, India, Vietnam and Mexico to finish the job of making the United States totally a consuming market, with virtually no production ability of our own. When we decide to demand American made products, demand that our government require a level playing field or else we'll subsidize our own industries; yes require quality from those producers, but be willing to pay a little bit more to buy home grown; THEN we will be able to start turning this ship around. We've got to stop out-sourcing everything off-shore. If we don't, their won't be many people left here in the U.S. with the ability to buy their stuff anyway, because our people will not have jobs. And guess who those people are? Our children and grand-children! Soon we'll be like most 3rd world countries, a 2 class system: the rich 'Fat-Cats' and the poor 'Down-Trodden'. There won't be any middle-class here anymore, the new middle-class will be in the emerging markets like China and India.

    As far as lowering gas prices, we need to work on our consumption habits and becoming energy independent, or like I said before, annex Iraq and make them the 51st state. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for the Free-Market System, but our energy dependence on foreign oil is fast becoming this country's #1national security issue. That and fresh potable water will become the cause of wars that our children will fight in the future. So get ready. We need to demand that our political leaders take some of the billions and billions of dollars being spent on the Iraq war and on propping up other countries, and spend it here at home subsidizing education, clean air & water, new technologies, and alternative sources of energy. Then, we might stand a chance of competing against Chindia. Just one man's observation. But enough said on that, what can we do to get Ford Motor Co. to bring new world-class rwd replacements for the CV/GM/TC to market, and to give the current Panther trio a significant facelift/re-engineering job, so they can soldier on another 4 or 5 years until the new replacements are ready?

    Oh, and that old addage "When America sneezes, the whole world catches a cold", well that'll soon be gone if we don't watch out. Soon it'll be "When America sneezes, it just means she's catching a cold"! The handwriting is on the wall, and we'd better heed it's warnings. It's sorta like the famous question that Ebenezer Scrooge asked the Spirit of Christmas Future, "Are these visions of things that must be, or of things that might be?". Hopefully we aren't going the way of many of the dominant empires of old, like the Egyptian, Greek and Roman empires. WE'VE BEEN WARNED!
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    While I am not an automotive engineer, somehow I cannot believe they cannot update and tweak the current Crown Vic platform/chassis with a 275-300 HP V6 or V8 engine that gets decent gas mileage ( most of the newer cars do not break 30 mpg, so it is not like their engineering is space-age) and update the interior for minimal expense into, say, the early 2000s (not yet 2008) and a little new sheetmetal on the outside...if they can badge engineer at GM, Ford can take a safe and paid-for platform, add some updates at truly minimal expense, advertise a family sedan with safety and decent mpg, and an interior that would attract somebody other than a 60-plus adult...if younger folks can like a CTS/DTS/STS, why can't Ford change some interior design and sheetmetal to not look like your grandfather's Model T and keep the car???

    Once again, Ford's strategy never seems to make much sense to me...
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    I have the memory of the American Labor Movement constantly entitling themselves to more wages and benefits while performing mediocre levels of craftsmanship while their overseas counterparts were supplying us with superior quality products. This chipping away has successfully priced the ALM out of work. To meet the demands of the stockholder, management has cut costs of production by moving manufacturing overseas.

    How ready is the American Labor Movement willing to give up their massive benefits, unrealistic wages, for service performed, & submit to returning to where they were in the 1950's?

    How ready is the American Labor Movement willing to provide higher quality of craftsmanship in exchange for a job that has to pay less in wages and benefits?

    The Middle Class is not willing to recognize what it has done to itself as it still has too much arrogance and pride blinding their vision.
  • ionosphere1ionosphere1 Member Posts: 50
    Yes, better gas mileage in the Grand Marquis would be nice, but I have no complaint about the horsepower. Lots of so called experts make a big deal that for a V8 engine it does not have much horsepower. Well, I have no problem getting up to speed so it has enough horsepower. I am not an old man and like the interior. I wish the dashboard was all digital though, like older models were. Guess they went back to analog, because they thought people wanted that? I end up always looking at the digital speed display instead of the dial.
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    I absolutely HATED the digital dashboards for the speedometer...for the clock, it is OK, but for speed I just like the round analog dials...
  • ionosphere1ionosphere1 Member Posts: 50
    Not me. Wish it was all digital.
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    My 94 Town Car Signature is Digital & I like it over the wife's 95 T Bird analog. It matches the analog tachometer next to it.

    I would trade one of the two digital trip odometers for a digital tach on the TC.
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    may digital rest in peace in the scrapheap of automotive history...:):):):):)
  • hwyhobohwyhobo Member Posts: 265
    I will vote for all analog. For that matter, I am happy with interior and exterior as is. In fact, I hope Ford never changes the exterior of the Merc GM. Continuity would be nice for a change. Instead of making cosmetic changes, make a huge one and offer a plug-in hybrid (PIH) version. Yeah, I know, not yet, but one day.

    Oh, oh, and please offer a wagon. I can't stand SUVs.
  • ionosphere1ionosphere1 Member Posts: 50
    I think the Grand Marquis is one of the nicest looking cars out there right now. Would someone please tell me what is so great about SUV's, Honda Accords, Toyota Camry's, etc.? I think the large American sedans of the 1970's and 1980's had a lot more style than most cars made now, and the Grand Marquis is the standard bearer now. I'm not an old stick-in-the-mud, as I love futuristic concept cars too, but the cars mentioned bear no resemblance to those.
  • helmetcamhelmetcam Member Posts: 2
    Had 2000 CV Lx, gave it up. Just got 2004 CV Lx Sport with 29,000. It is so similiar to the Maruader...minus the horsepower, I am a proud owner. Is there any good/bad info about this year and model?
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