Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

Mercedes-Benz R-Class

1356712

Comments

  • lovemyclklovemyclk Member Posts: 351
    "The R and M feel and look like they were built to a price and more importantly ease of assembly"...

    I'm a huge MB fan and believe if a vehicle sharing the platform of a lower priced ML can't be "built to a price" in the $60-70K range and knock your socks off, then something else in the equation is missing. Not that the R is anything to sneeze at :)

    I find that the E500 Estate better answers the motoring question that the R is now attempting to answer. Sure, the R transports people nicely, but so do their sedans/estates. Maybe the market will verge away from the ML and toward the R... who knows?

    Just want to see MB deliver what built their brand in the 1st place. Don't lose focus and make no excuses when it comes to engineering excellence!
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I'm a huge MB fan and believe if a vehicle sharing the platform of a lower priced ML can't be "built to a price" in the $60-70K range and knock your socks off, then something else in the equation is missing. Not that the R is anything to sneeze at

    I agree that the R is a not a bad product, but it could be a lot better. I don't think it has anything to do with the platform, its the smaller things - details that are off when compared to Mercedes' cars.

    The interiors are nice, but not as nice as Mercedes cars of similar prices. The R/M seem as if they're built for ease of assembly like American cars are (or were in some rare cases). Also the design of the interior is less inspired than say the E or CLS.

    M
  • albellalbell Member Posts: 185
    As an owner of the current and previous editions of the E-Class "estate" (I just can't understand the US phobia of the W-word), I will be interested to see how the R-Class sells. For me, while I would love a bit more room and forward-facing jump seats, I believe, the E-Class wagon is one of the most versatile and enjoyable vehicles on the market, especially the W211 platform. It's cargo hold is similar or better than most SUV's and its an infinitely more enjoyable driving experience (and more so that I average 26 mpg or better on the highway.)

    Personally, I think that the timing of the R-Class introduction in the midst of the gasoline spike is unfortunate for MB. I find it irritating what the media and others say about luxury car owners not caring about the price of gas, 'cause we're so rich. :P. I am sure that it will have an impact on sales, at least until the price stabilizes,no matter how much dinero we have to burn (hah.)

    Bring on the B-Class!!
  • shellymeister2shellymeister2 Member Posts: 115
    Hi Mark!

    My original post of my impressions of the R 350 test drive were not designed to hurt or insult. Just as any writer or reviewer of any product would like to express an honest opinion regarding their impressions.

    If you enjoy your new R class vehicle (as you should)- then more power to you.

    If you read my review carefully, you'll find that I had almost an equal amount of moderately critical stuff to say about the Pacifica as well as the R class.

    Both vehicles aree excellent products by any standard, and I think we're all striving to find the "perfect" vehicle (which of course does not really exist).

    I have a few comments about your post however, and please don't take these the wrong way.

    Despite the long and mostly impressive history of Mercedes benz and Daimler. they have been known to produce a few less than stellar vehicles. The first generation M class is one example of mediocrity, suspect build quality, and poor reliability. ( The current new generation M is a major improvement.)

    Having a classy name is not always a guarantee of of a superior vehicle.

    Chrysler products have seen a real improvement in the driving, handling and build quality of their newer products (such as the Pacifica) ever since Daimler took over. Daimler's know how and chassis expertise has definitely filtered down to the new Pacifica, 300/magnum/Charger, and even the Durango and Grand Cherokee. All these vehicles are pretty impressive now, especially when you consider how reasonably priced they are.

    Mark, have you ever driven the Pacifica? or 300 RT w/ hemi?

    I have, and I was favorably impressed.

    I think you would be pleasantly surprised.

    Recently, the vaunted NY Times reviewed the Chrysler 300 SRT 8 and said it was every bit as good as a an E Class AMG product that cost a good 30-40K more.

    To me there still is a correlation between price and value.

    Maybe the R class is a better overall vehicle than the Pacifica, but how do YOU quantify how much more vehicle it really is when they are so similar.

    I ask you Mark, IS the R 500 really worth FORTY THOUSAND dollars more than a well equipped Pacifica?

    Obviously you feel the vehicle is worth the money and I am not trying to put down your feelings or your new car (van?), but don't you look for value for your money when you buy most anything?

    One last item- you mentioned that the R-class is a german-built product. I was under the impression that the R-class was built in Alabama- am I wrong?

    If you meant "german-designed" product, well the Pacifica was a german-designed product as well.

    By the way, I also own a BMW X-3 which I enjoy driving and is superior in many ways to other smaller SUVs- but I think it is also overpriced by about $5-7K.
    (But not $40K)
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Recently, the vaunted NY Times reviewed the Chrysler 300 SRT 8 and said it was every bit as good as a an E Class AMG product that cost a good 30-40K more.

    That is why a non-automotive publication like the NYT should stick to reporting news and not trying to act like they know cars. The 300C SRT-8 is a very good car, but it isn't a E55 AMG. Does it provide a similar experience? Yes. Does it provide much of the same performance? Yes. Does it have as good a ride or is it built as well? No and no.

    Is the price difference between a R500 and a Pacifica really 40K?

    M
  • markc5markc5 Member Posts: 19
    The R class is built in Alabama but is no more an American product than the X-3 which you drive which is built in Spartanburg SC. These are through and through German Cars built in a German designed factory in the USA. Fortunately for our economy. I have not driven the Pacifica because I never liked the styling of that car. You may say it looks similar to the R class but I dont think so. And maybe I have fallen victim to my own ego but I believe a mercedes product is ultimately much classier in design and ultimately in function and longevity. Is the R Class worth 40K more than a Pacifica maybe not but If you can afford it and you like it what the heck. Again it is one of those things why drive a BMW X3 when you could get a well equipped KIA or Hyundai or the like for much better value for your money. Answer it is not always about the value and the money it is about percieved status, reputation of the car company, and ultimately (if you purchase the car which I did not I leased) the long term value of the car and resale or trade in value which I have to believe is better with a mercedes So raise a glass to the R series and i hope more people share my opinion on it than share yours.
  • chirpchirp Member Posts: 194
    It's here!

    Once again, I am a MB driver and drive a C32 AMG which has been a hoot and I prolly overpaid for it like all my other cars (including Chryslers, Porsche, Fords, GM...). I was on the PR train regarding the R-class all of the way through the process and my PERSONAL feeling is it's ugly, period. I had high hopes after all the hype and my hopes are shot. That's ME talking with regards to my personal feelings and I commend MB for having the skill and vision (remember it carried that monicker for awhile) to produce this vehicle. I also commend all of those who find that this van/suv/people-hauler meets their needs and buys one!

    I like the new M class design and once again that is more than likely going to be my next ride. I'm 50 and was looking for something to haul around the family, dog, clients, etc., but I can't see that thing in my driveway. For what it's worth, I'm not a fan of the Pacifica either and thought the R-class would be the bomb! It just isn't working for me. Sorry!
  • headcrackerheadcracker Member Posts: 4
    I think many of us who are posting on this forum, really wanted to like this vehicle. It seemed in its gestation to be a perfect luxurious family hauler. A minivan for the well off (or those who spend like they are). My experience is that physically the layout is excellent, but old Mercedes issues are present when they did not need to be. Why, when starting from scratch does this minivan not have a rear view camera, when MB is willing to throw one on the next S class. Why does it not have bluetooth, instead of their infuriatingly restricted telecom choice. Why is the interior not the same quality as the cheaper E, frankly since it is brand new it should be even better. If you already have the new V8 why sell the old one in a brand new vehicle.
    I guess my ultimate frustration is with car makers who could easily introduce a complete vehicle at the outset always seem to make the consumer wait for a year. Lexus sells more SUV's than any of the other luxo brands for a reason. Copy those things and wrap it up in the MB package and make me happy. Give me much better reliability, do not make me feel shortchanged because the vehicle is built in Alabama. Make it clear why I spent 70,000$ and was happy to do it. I do not believe in this incarnation the R class will make enough people smile. The last thing I wanted was an Odyssey but the comparison is not close for my money.(my other vehicles are a 6 speed 540i and a Lexus GX470)
  • shellymeister2shellymeister2 Member Posts: 115
    HI Mark & Merc

    Merc, I beleive the 330 SRT 8 is lot closer to the E55 AMG model than you might suspect. The build quality is not as good, but again would you really expect it to be at such a huge difference in price?

    Your other question regarding the $40K difference in price between the Pacifica and the R-500 is a real number. The average Pacifica (very well equipped) lists out in the mid $30K but actual transaction prices between dealer discounts and the $2K rebate hovers at around $30k. The R-500 (well equipped) generally will sticker out in the upper $60K to almost $70K, believe it or not.

    That leads me to the value question again, shouldn't a $60-70K vehicle really knock your socks off?

    I'm not only talking performance, but shouldn't a vehicle in this price class just blow away the competition with innovations and unique features that no one else has?

    Why would I want to shell out this much money for what is essentially a minivan without sliding doors, and without 3rd row seats that fold out of the way for example?

    If you are buying the R class for the comfort & utility, then why not look at minivans?

    I think the answer is- minivans are not cool right now. (I have a feeling that might change soon, because the guy who was the head of styling on 300/magnum vehicles has been put in charge of a radical new desighn for the Chrysler minivans)

    By the way, Mark, I did point out that the R-class was german designed, and I did not mean to imply that building the vehicle in the USA was a negative. in fact many good foreign owned products are now built here with great success and good build quality. But you have to admit that the Pacifica and much of the newer lineup from Chrysler is also german designed as well. You're deluding yourself if you think otherwise.

    The Pacifica IS very similar to the R Class precisely because of the influence and design teams from Daimler who have been steering the styling direction of both companies. When I first saw a prototype of the R-Class (I believe it was called the Vision at that time), the first thing that popped into my head and apparently most automotive journalists was- Pacifica!

    In fact, most of the Road Tests that I have read in Motor Trend, Car & Driver, and their ilk have consistently compared the R to the Pacifica.

    The BMW X3 that I own as I mentioned previously is a superior product to the other smaller SUV's out there, but your stated examples of comparing the X3 to Hyundai's and Kia's is a little silly. A more valid comparison for value would be the Acura MDX, Nissan Pathfinder, or even the Honda Pilot. These are vehicles that cost less than the BMW X3 and give you a good amount of bang for the buck. These are certainly not Korean vehicles. But again the difference in price between the X3 and these other vehicles range in the $5-7K range not $40K.

    By the way, I don't believe the X3 is built in Spartanburg (not that there's anything wrong with that (a little Seinfeld humor there....)).

    While I was replying I read headcrackers post, and I think essentially he's saying the same thing as I am especially regarding the level of equipment and the perceived value of the R class. There should have been a whole heck of a lot more equipment and innovation in the R for the kind of price strata it inhabits.

    I agree with headcracker that even the Honda Odyssey Touring edition is better equipped than the R.
  • lovemyclklovemyclk Member Posts: 351
    We can debate style and design until the cows come home, but there should be no question when it comes to MB build quality and overall platform execution. As nice as the new ML and R may be, there is "something" missing in the overall feel of the vehicles compared to the S/E/CLS/CL. Regardless, the automobile industry has changed and many companies believe they must have a product for every conceivable demographic.

    Still, the initial launch of both the ML and R indicate that MB learned from the 1998 ML debacle. Both are good products and well-realized for whom MB believes will buy them... just not sure MB needed this level of diversity. Thank goodness they killed the "scooter" - the C230 coupe :) MB did not need to go there in the U.S.!

    Think the new CDI engines coming from MB will add a new dimension to the R and ML purchase criteria.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Merc, I beleive the 330 SRT 8 is lot closer to the E55 AMG model than you might suspect. The build quality is not as good, but again would you really expect it to be at such a huge difference in price?

    Well it isn't. I had the chance to drive the 300C SRT-8 and I've driven the E55 more than a few times since 2003, and let me tell you it ain't so. The NYT is clueless if they think these cars are equal. The 300 is awesome, but the E55 is off the charts, and the only area where the 300 is superior is in handling feel, whereas the E55 is faster, has a better ride, and is better built, among other things. The general refinement of the E55 is a lot better than the 300 also.

    Your other question regarding the $40K difference in price between the Pacifica and the R-500 is a real number. The average Pacifica (very well equipped) lists out in the mid $30K but actual transaction prices between dealer discounts and the $2K rebate hovers at around $30k. The R-500 (well equipped) generally will sticker out in the upper $60K to almost $70K, believe it or not.

    Well if you're going to go into transaction prices I'm sure that the R500 won't be going for sticker price after the initial hype dies down. Either way a buyer will have to work hard to see a 40K price difference.

    Yes the R-Class should be superior in most ways to the Pacifica. I'm not really defending the R-Class because I personally don't like SUV/Crossover things (i.e. anything that isn't a "car") anyway, but some of what I reading here sounds suspect, especially about a 40K price difference.

    If you're the equipment type (dvd, leather etc.) that doesn't care or understand the other finer points about the engineering that goes into more expensive vehicles thats fine, but a little reasearch should be in order before blasting a product as being not worth the money. Again, I'm not saying the R is worth 70K, because I don't think it is either, but what Mercedes puts into a vehicle that you can't read on the window sticker accounts or something. Furthermore, a Kia Minivan can be had with most of the same features on the Honda you and others keep mentioning, doesn't mean its the same class of vehicle. Also, just because R&T compare the R with the Pac doesn't mean the Pacifica is in the same league, their comparision centered around the two vehicles sharing the same purpose.

    Also, on the subject of "value". Value is what a person sees in a vehicle, its not always the old standby of "I got leather this and DVDs here and what not" either. Luxury SUVs and Crossovers are poor values to start with going by that standard because each and every one of them have a cheaper competitor that will do the same job and in a lot of cases its a platform/badge mate to the luxury SUV/Crossover in question. The R-Class is no different.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Think the new CDI engines coming from MB will add a new dimension to the R and ML purchase criteria.

    True, this should happen around this time next year.

    I'm not crazy about the R, M or upcoming GL, something is indeed missing compared to Mercedes' cars.

    M
  • headcrackerheadcracker Member Posts: 4
    Please do not succumb to the vapidness of "that doesn't care or understand the other finer points about the engineering that goes into more expensive vehicles thats fine",to make your point. Tell us exactly what the superior engineering is. Most vehicles today are quite close in terms of engineering. We pay for the name, no shame in that, but it is true. Is there more tactile feel in a Mini vs. an E class, I dare say there is. Is there more luxury in the E class, I dare say there is. Which is the better engineered car? Is the Quattroporte better engineered than the Cayman, doubtful, but I pay for the rarity, the name, and the "fine Italian leather". No, engineering and its finer points are not being discussed because it is unlikely you can tell us how we are to discern the difference. Is it the superior reliability of MB products-that is clearly not the case. Is it the excellent ergonomics of the passenger compartment-let Comand be your guide. No, it must be the universal praise of the brake by wire technology-oops no that was universally derided.
    Please do not ratchet up the emotional content of your statement with reports of posters blasting the R class.
    No my dear sir, most car buyers are paying for content, the equipment which you believe is secondary. They pay for leather instead of cloth, they pay for contrasting piping, for 12 speakers v. 4. Let us also posit that most MB buyers are looking for an overall superior experience. You know the argument "I know it when I see it". Comparing the R class to nothing else, I believe one has a difficult task to show me the objective reasons why it is superior. As in all other things price does not equate with quality, innovation, or a superior experience. Therefore hasten not to a comparison with a Kia for you might find MB wanting. Oh, yeah, tell me again why a car that costs 30,000 less should have more content. The question for me is not finding the cheapest alternative, but being able to justify why I was willing to pay more. This is where we agree, compared to other MB products the R class suffers, and that more than anything else is what irks me about its pricing. MB sells itself on luxury and excellent build quality. This more than any other reason is why the C class has never competed sales wise with the 3 series, because BMW sells itself on a better drive and I can get that in a cheaper package. However, it is also the reason why the 7's will never match the S class. At that price point the driving is not nearly as important as the surroundings and letting others know you can buy the S. The R class, is it a vastly improved minivan-no it is not. Is it exceedingly luxurious- no it is not. I just cannot justify the difference, so for me it is a no go. Will this class of vehicles be successful, I think so. My prediction is the Lexus version, when it does come out in 3-4 years(because you know they will build it)will reign, just like they do the luxo SUV market. The drivers will opt for the BMW( monkey see monkey do), and the new Audi (Q7 or something else) will be ignored as are their other vehicles.
  • markc5markc5 Member Posts: 19
    And so the debate rages on.... Do I like it or Do I hate it. Doggone Germans should have added this or that. Meanwhile in Gotham..... I continue to enjoy driving this whatever you want to call it. I just added my IPOD to the auxillary port yesterday and along with my sattelite radio I have a great driving experience. The only thing I am missing is the backup camera which my lexus has. That would be nice. But the backup sensors work great in this car. So you guys continue to hammer away and enjoy your debate. Meanwhile I will pass you in the fast lane as you drive your Honda Odyssy to the next soccer game. (YUCK!!!!)
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Please do not succumb to the vapidness of "that doesn't care or understand the other finer points about the engineering that goes into more expensive vehicles thats fine",to make your point. Tell us exactly what the superior engineering is. Most vehicles today are quite close in terms of engineering.

    My original point was this. If you're going to knock a vehicle you should know everything about or at least most things, not simply talk about what a vehicle does on doesn't have in the way of things that any vehicle can have. Sure the R-Class isn't hands down superior to the Pacifica (never said it was) but for the extra refinement, safety engineering etc. you'll have to pay more for the Mercedes name, as you put it. Secondly, rear-seat DVD players and cooled seats don't make a Mercedes, but they do make the cheaper vehicles in the minds of most. Apparently that is what is happening here, the R getting knocked for those type of "features" not being present. A loaded R500 may not be a "value" for the value=cheaper shoppers, but its ride, refinement, safety, would be ahead of any of the vehicles its being compared to here. Now whether that is worth the 30K or whatever difference between it an something similar is up to the buyer, but the difference is present.

    Is there more tactile feel in a Mini vs. an E class, I dare say there is. Is there more luxury in the E class, I dare say there is. Which is the better engineered car?

    Doesn't apply here because a Mini and a E-Class don't compete in any way, nor do they share the same concept.

    No, engineering and its finer points are not being discussed because it is unlikely you can tell us how we are to discern the difference.

    Thats my point, people either get it or they don't. No one can make a person see or feel something different about a vehicle they aren't trying to see or unable to see. Some people could drive a Mercedes S-Class and call it just another car. There are posts on Edmunds about the 3-Series where the person who drove it didn't feel it handled or drove any better than anything else. This person doesn't get it, and I'm not saying its they're stupid or clueless, its just over their head.

    In all fairness you are correct about the R lacking compared to Mercedes cars, as I have stated this also because I can tell just by sitting in one it isn't the same vehicle a CLS/S/E is when it comes to that tactile feel of quality or what most people would deem feeling expensive. That doesn't make it chopped liver either, which is the tone I'm getting here.

    The R-Class doesn't have Mercedes' brake by wire system, btw.

    No my dear sir, most car buyers are paying for content, the equipment which you believe is secondary. They pay for leather instead of cloth, they pay for contrasting piping, for 12 speakers v. 4. Let us also posit that most MB buyers are looking for an overall superior experience.

    True, they are paying for content, which I don't think is "secondary" but they are also paying for the nuances that a luxury product provides. Whether it be styling, a better ride, better performance or more sophisticated engineering like 7-speed transmissions and air suspension. If content was the only thing or such a superior reason for buying a crossover/suv type vehicle there would be no reason to buy any luxury suv/crossover product because they all have much cheaper competitors that do the same things with the same "equipment". This about content being the biggest driving factor on a purchase of something like an R-Class doesn't address the luxury vehicle aspect of it. If content was the end-all there are dozens of ways to transport 6 people with similar or the same "stuff" as the R, all of them being much cheaper. Basic equipment can be had on any vehicle, doesn't mean its done in the same manner or as seamlessly as it is the luxury product. This is why a product of lesser price can have more "content". The Koreans for example are good at this, while they give you all this stuff, the refinement, fit and finish are poor and the driving experience sucks.

    The C-Class and 3-Series really have nothing to do with this, but the 2 main reasons why the 3 outsells the C is because BMW has more variants and they've made their name on making a superior sports sedan. Mercedes up until now wasn't even playing the same game as the 3-Series when it came to making the 3-Series sporty. Mercedes' so-called "sport" packages on the C (up until 2005's facelift) were nothing more than an a afterthought. You say that the 3-Series is superior car, well yeah for a person looking for a sports sedan yes, but many find the C to meet their small luxury sedan needs just fine. And the 3-Series is hardly any cheaper than a comparable C-Class, its down to a few hundred dollars for comparable equipped cars now, if that. You can get a 3-Series up to 45K very easily today.

    The R-Class isn't trying to be a vastly improved minivan because for one it isn't a minivan. Secondly I don't think its worth E-Class/CLS type money either, but to simply judge it on window sticker features and declare it non-superior in any way is just to simplistic imo. Also, everyone doesn't have the same value = this or that type system. Maybe the poster that has a R500 wanted something different, love it or hate the R is definitely something that. Everyone is going to see this differently.

    M
  • shellymeister2shellymeister2 Member Posts: 115
    Firstly, Marc- you shouldn't get so emotional about this debate. After all, we're talking about a CAR- not a human. I understand you are spending your hard-earned dollars on this lease, and you would like to feel you made a good decision- but ultimately the marketplace will speak & determine whether or not they think this vehicle is a desirable product or not.

    We are just debating the finer points, the plusses and minusses of this new vehicle. It's supposed to be FUN debating, not a chore. No vehicle out there today is going to make everyone happy, nor will it fill everyone's perceived needs. If you enjoy your new R 500 then go ahead and enjoy it, but when you put down others for driving a Honda Odyssey, you're essentially doing what you are accusing others of doing here on this forum.

    No one on this Forum is putting YOU down for driving an R class, but you seem to not be able to separate yourself from criticism of a car.
    Lighten up.

    Merc, as you know, I have actually driven the R 350 (not the 500) and I spent a fair amount of time in a MB dealership going over options & pricing. I agree with you that the actual transaction price of an R 500 will eventually trend lower, but even so, let's say the sticker on most R 500's will average about $68K. Even if the dealers discounts the hell out the vehicle, I can't see it going out the door for less than $62K (unless MB offers rebates or spiffs to the dealers). That still makes for a $32K difference in price between a well-eqipped pacifica & an R 500. That's still a staggering difference.

    Ok, you say, lets compare an R 350 future transaction price vs. Pacifica.
    Here: Sticker R350- avg. $58K
    probable heavy discount : $53K
    Still a $23K difference in price with the Pacifica. That $23K buys a lot of dinners at Peter Lugers or Ruth's Chris for you non-nyers.

    What will likely happen if MB gets stuck with these, they will offer inflated residual values & very reduced lease money factors to get the monthly lease payment more palatable.

    In response to your assertions that there are certain aspects to the design, build & mechanical superiority of MB products- I agree with you, and I made that same point when showing that I thought my X3 was overpriced (but I leased it anyway) but also pointed out that the diifference was only about $5k, not $23K or $32K.

    By the way, this is exactly what happened with the BMW X3 I own. When I first looked at the X3, the lease payment averaged in the upper $400- slightly over $500 amonth for a modestly equipped version. When the X3 sat on the lots for a while the money factor & residuals were raised to a point where I leased one for the very low $400's a month. Which leads me to the perceived value argument of headcracker.

    I also agree with many of the points that headcracker has made, particularly about the content level of a vehicle IS a major factor in why we buy a particular vehicle. We should expect that if a vehicle is more expensive than another very similar competing vehicle it should, at the very least have as much standard equipment as the lesser vehicle, and at its inflated price, offer at least a modicum of innovation & unique features to help entice you and make you feel you not only got a great superior vehicle, but one that represents value as well.

    I just want to remind you guys that in the early 70's the Japanese were just starting to tackle the US market, and they did a very clever thing. They took small cheap cars & dramatically increased the content level. We, at that time were used to driving larger American cars which very often only had power windows, door locks, and other "luxury" equipment included as costly extras. As a result, lots of bread & butter american vehicles at the time had crank windows and push down door locks. The Japanes won over a lot of buyers by using content as a selling tool. Today, even the lowliest vehicles have all the power equipment standard (even power steering).

    What I am getting at is that headcracker is right- the bar has been raised- especially by the Japanese manufacturers. We should expect a full complement of the latest features in the most expensive cars, and we should complain about it if MB or other manufacturers don't include them.

    Finally, of course no one can ever "win" a debate on whether a product is worth its price or not. Of course it is "worth" whatever someone is willing to pay for it.

    I believe that market forces will eventually determine what this R class is "worth" and that MB will be forced to sell it at that price or stop producing it if it doesn't succeed or loses money for them.

    And oh yes, Merc- the R-Class IS a minivan, just like the Pacifica.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Merc, as you know, I have actually driven the R 350 (not the 500) and I spent a fair amount of time in a MB dealership going over options & pricing. I agree with you that the actual transaction price of an R 500 will eventually trend lower, but even so, let's say the sticker on most R 500's will average about $68K. Even if the dealers discounts the hell out the vehicle, I can't see it going out the door for less than $62K (unless MB offers rebates or spiffs to the dealers). That still makes for a $32K difference in price between a well-eqipped pacifica & an R 500. That's still a staggering difference.

    As it will be with any luxury product if you're going to compare them to regular vehicles. On that basis no luxury product is going to be worth the premium to you.

    In response to your assertions that there are certain aspects to the design, build & mechanical superiority of MB products- I agree with you, and I made that same point when showing that I thought my X3 was overpriced (but I leased it anyway) but also pointed out that the diifference was only about $5k, not $23K or $32K.

    I'm glad you see my point, but how do you know a X3 isn't worth that much over whatever you were comparing it too? Just looking at the window sticker and counting up features isn't going far enough to justify saying that the X3 isn't worth the premium.

    I also agree with many of the points that headcracker has made, particularly about the content level of a vehicle IS a major factor in why we buy a particular vehicle. We should expect that if a vehicle is more expensive than another very similar competing vehicle it should, at the very least have as much standard equipment as the lesser vehicle, and at its inflated price, offer at least a modicum of innovation & unique features to help entice you and make you feel you not only got a great superior vehicle, but one that represents value as well.

    Well features are important, but again any vehicle can have the same things, doesn't mean it is the same class of vehicle, that is the point of buying a luxury vehicle in the first place. Its not simply reading the window sticker and counting up what it has or what it doesn't have compared to a much cheaper and lacking in other areas, vehicle. It is the entire package that makes the luxury vehicle just that, plus the features.

    The R-Class is not a minivan, and neither is the Pacific. It would seem kinda silly for Chrysler to have both the Town and Country and the Pacifica if they were both minivans. They are crossovers, and they don't have the storage or the awful, boat-like dynamics of minvans either.

    M
  • markc5markc5 Member Posts: 19
    Dear "Shelly" I am not taking anything in this forum personally.I am simply responding to what some are referring to as a purchase that was not worth it's price. I still remain amazed how anyone can compare apples and oranges as skillfully as you do. I would not consider buying a chrysler because at the nuts and bolts level it is not a mercedes and I think you know what I mean. Additionally, I am pretty sure anything that qualifies for the minivan title has a sliding door and can't compete style wise with a R series or a Pacifica for that matter. I sure hope that the market bears this car up I would love to know that my instincts served me well on this decision.
  • ctsangctsang Member Posts: 237
    Do you know that chrysler cars' built quality ranks higher than MBs according to survey?
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I've never heard of "built" quality. Must be something new. Chrysler might be ranked higher in reliability because of simplicity, but they surely aren't physically built better than a Mercedes. To gleam that from a survey is a sign of very little or no actual experience with Mercedes products.

    M
  • shellymeister2shellymeister2 Member Posts: 115
    Hi again everyone!

    Merc- I don't feel that most luxury vehicles are "worth" their price. Most of our perception of "luxury" usually has a lot more to do with advertising and product image than real VALUE for the dollar. Of course the I recognize that the E-class, S class, and the 5 & 7 series BMW products are generally superior products compared to more plebian products. But are they worth DOUBLE or TRIPLE the prices of comparably sized vehicles- NO!

    The fact that we have been essentially hoodwinked by clever advertising and image makers to shell out massively larger bucks for these products in and of itself
    is not a kind of proof that there is any intrinsic value there. Believe me, virtually all the major German manufacturers could fairly easily produce & sell their vehicles for prices much closer to what we consider more moderate pricing. After all, once you get past the engineering, the cost of the materials to build these "luxury" vehicles is hardly much more than most convetional vehicles. Certainly not double or triple the cost.

    But, being a capitalist. I say more power to these German manufacturers- if they can charge what they want and get it- good for them. i would certainly do the same. After all, thousands of products today are sold on image alone for exorbitant prices.

    I just wanted to remind all you guys out there about the origin of the moniker-"SUV".

    SUV (Sport Utility Vehicles) - this term goes back to the introduction of the early 80's Chrysler minivans. Originally, the term SUV applied to any & all minivans, 4 wheel drives, etc. The term has wrongly evolved into a term describing All or 4 wheel drive vehicles exclusively. Check, you'll see I'm correct. Why is this an important point?

    Because "crossovers" is a term that is falsely behind the curve. The original Chrysler minivans were the first "crossover" vehicles way back in 1983, as they were derived and developed off the K-car chassis. What I am trying to get across is that ALL minivans, 4 wheel drives, and other permutations like the R Class are all actually in the same category. Sure you can pretend that the R-Class is NOT a minivan- but who determined that a minivan HAS to have sliding doors? After all, the Mazda MPV did not originally have sliding doors and it was still considered a minivan. (The MPV also waqs one of the first minivans to be offered in AWD).

    Right now, in Japan, the Honda Odyssey also has 4 conventionally opening doors. It's still a minivan though-right? Like the Pacifica & the R-class, it also seats six.

    The rules that have been mentioned in these postings don't really hold up in the ever changing world of automobile classification.

    Is the Toyota Highlander a 4 wheeler or a minivan?

    Is the Honda Pilot a 4 wheeler or a minivan?

    I would submit that both of those vehicles ARE minivans with clever packaging and advertising we are convinced they are tougher "SUV's".

    If they ever attempted to go off road, both of their undercarraiges and suspensions would quickly be mangled. Hardly what we think of when we think of today's perception of SUV's.

    Marc- you might want to one day, just in the interest of experimentation, take a test drive in a 2005-6 Honda Odyssey. I think you will be pleasantly surprised. Not only is the Odyssey powerful (244 Hp), but it also is hardly a flabby handling vehicle, in fact its got pretty sharp handling and steering. The brakes are good, not outstanding, the standard equipment list is impressive, the interior and exterior fit & finish is almost up there with the Germans and the out-the-door price is amazingly low.

    Though I fully realize that test track numbers do not tell the whole story, especially when there a number of subjective issues about any vehicle cannot be quantified by numbers alone- but I would like to see the comparison of the performance statistics between an R 350 and a new Honda Odyssey. I would be willing to wager that they are amazingly close.

    Thanks for listening, guys
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Merc- I don't feel that most luxury vehicles are "worth" their price. Most of our perception of "luxury" usually has a lot more to do with advertising and product image than real VALUE for the dollar. Of course the I recognize that the E-class, S class, and the 5 & 7 series BMW products are generally superior products compared to more plebian products. But are they worth DOUBLE or TRIPLE the prices of comparably sized vehicles- NO!

    That says a lot. I'm on the table jumping up and down in disagreement with that.... :cry: A S-Class or 7-Series is easily worth double the price of any similarly sized "regular" car. ;)

    M
  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    I understand the emotion in a discussion about Mercedes. Some of us have a 30+ year frame of reference with MB. We are adjusting to a very changed company philosophy.

    Quality and feature differences between brands are much less evident now than even five years ago.

    The R does look like a minivan to most who see it. We will see how it sells.
  • chirpchirp Member Posts: 194
    My dealer(Chicago market) said that the response to the R-class has been luke warm at best. Not sure what anyone else has heard in other parts of the country.

    We can talk at length about the pros and cons and just where this vehicle fits in the ever-narrowing niches, but if this thing doesn't sell to the degree of MB's expectations it will have been a lot of effort for naught. It's here!!!! Just doesn't sound like too many were waiting for it... :(
  • rjlaerorjlaero Member Posts: 659
    The bottom line for a lot of people is that the R Class is simply not that good looking of a vehicle. Maybe not butt-ugly, but it's got no sex appeal at all for a 60-70 grand Mercedes. It's just sceams mini van (albeit a big one).

    Mercedes has lost some of their classy styling from the 80's & 90's, and their swoopy Cadillac/Chrysler esque designs have taken a lot of magic away from their product line.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Mercedes has lost some of their classy styling from the 80's & 90's, and their swoopy Cadillac/Chrysler esque designs have taken a lot of magic away from their product line.

    This may be true about their designs now compared to the 80's and 90's SL, E, S-Class etc., but I don't see a thing about a Mercedes that looks anywhere near as bad as the current smoothed over egg crate designs at Cadillac. Cadillac now makes the most unnattractive group of cars in their history. Hard edges and creases and random cut lines, nothing like any Mercedes. If there is any similarity between a Chyrsler and a Mercedes (which I don't see anyhere pas the Crossfire and 300) it is Chrysler that has begun to look like Mercedes, not the other way around...for obvious reasons.

    A Mercedes that looks like a Cadillac? No way in the world.

    A few negative reactions (posts) about the R's styling doesn't equate to a "lot of people" either, not even. Lets see how it sells and then you'll know what people think.

    M
  • albellalbell Member Posts: 185
    Also keep in mind that MB's stated sales target for the R is rather modest at about 30,000 units. That may be a bit much to reach in this energy environment, but I don't see that as being overly aggressive either.

    I finally saw one in the flesh at the showroom when I was in for service. It's big all right, but not as big as I expected. I thought it looked fine. Not tempted to trade my E wagon for it though, at least at sticker.... :)
  • rjlaerorjlaero Member Posts: 659
    I can't see these cars flying off the lot @ 60-70 grand. There's way too much competition in the market right now. And the magazine and press reviews of the R series haven't been that good. Not terrible, but luke-warm is the impression I get.

    The Caddy SRX is a goofy looking vehicle, IMO. But Caddy buyers are a different crowd, and the big 10,000 discounts help move cars off the lot.

    We'll see how the market reacts to the R series.
  • shellymeister2shellymeister2 Member Posts: 115
    Just received the latest issue of Car& Driver and it contains a review of the R-500.

    Just as I had written (and had been criticised for) the article does a lot of comparing to Minivans & the Pacifica specifically.

    The article is largely favorable (except the sticker price $70K Merc?? where are you?) but the side bar, which contains alternate opinions from 3 different testers are all mostly negative. They all comment on the price (stratospheric) and the wisdom of this vehicle.

    The Test as usual contains bar graphs of similar vehicles in various categories of performance & price, and of course the Pacifica is one of the four compared vehicles. Considering the Pacifica is a 6 cylinder vs. a V-8 equipped R-500, the Pacifica aquits itself surprisingly well, and the differences in performance are relatively small considering the price difference. The handling numbers on the Pacifica were actually superior.

    Now I know test numbers are not the same as the actual driving experience, they do give you some sort of basis for comparison.

    Also the article makes many of my earlier points about the R Class being a high priced minivan.

    One other interesting article in the latest C & D is the comparo between the new Jeep Commander w/ a Hemi and the newly redone Ford Explorer. The reason I bring this article up is the interesting last few paragraphs of the test when C & D says that buyers who might consider these two vehicles (which C & D considered good but not great), a buyer might be better served considering a Honda Minivan which they considered superior in every way!

    Kinda what I said in earlier post! :P
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    The Ford and Jeep comparo had nothing to do with the R500 test. They didn't say anything about no Honda in the R500 test so why try to link the two?

    You're right numbers don't give the full driving experience. The Pacifica's V6 is no where near as refined as Mercedes' V8 and next year the R500 will get a brand new state of the art 32V 382hp V8. The ongoing comparision to the Pacifica and how it "aquits" itself is beyond silly to me at this point. It isn't the same class of vehicle, not matter how close the "handling numbers" are. "The handling numbers"? What is that? People don't buy either one these vehicles for handling anyway.

    M
  • chirpchirp Member Posts: 194
    Hey Merc, you are really started to sound like a broken record. Have you ever driven an Odyssey? You know that Honda sells every one of these that they make and they don't play the discount game with them and they handle and cruise a lot better than you may expect and yes, people DO buy these for the handling. [I do not own an Odyssey]

    I will gentleman-bet you that the R-class will be either discounted or will be supported by lease incentives before February of '06. MB will have no choice as they will need to "move 'em out". Let's watch and see together.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Hey Chirp, you're chirping about the same thing, a minivan that has nothing to do with anything being discussed here. I couldn't care less what Honda sells or how they sell them. Who cares? I surely don't.

    You seem to think that I'm under the impression that R-Class is the end all of the people mover segment, well I don't think that. Secondly this tired theme about a even more tired Honda minivan is what I find to be in need of being turned over, as in the case of a broken record. The Honda was mentioned in a SUV comparo not in relation to the R-Class. Now if you think the Honda is superior so be it, but don't tell me about a broken record when this Honda keeps being mentioned by others in the wrong thread in the first place.

    M
  • chirpchirp Member Posts: 194
    We need more than one R-class owner in this discussion. I'd really like to know how this Sports-Tourer is being used from people who are buying them. Are they hauling people, TVs, stuff from IKEA? Going to soccer games, out to dinner, long trips? Maybe in the next few months we'll hear from them and learn more about the Sports-Tourer part of this thing and just what that means and why it's different than the other "multi-seat w/luggage carrying capacity" vehicles. Unfortunately, we don't really have anything familiar out on the road to compare it with short of the Pacifica. :D
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Well that is true, but give it time. As always Mercedes does it first and the rest jump on. There will be something similar from Lexus and BMW in the coming years. I doubt if a person that is into serious hauling is going to spend 50-70K to do it. IMO the R is for couple who want to take other couples out in something a little different from the run of the mill SUV o minivan. Just what I think.

    M
  • canes04canes04 Member Posts: 8
    Here's a response from a new R350 owner. The main driving force behind purchasing the R was to upgrade from a Pacifica that I had. The R gives me everything I wanted....that being the layout of the Pacifica plus the luxury and status of a Benz. Is the R unattractive....I remember I was one of the first Pacifica buyers and almost everyone thought it was bizarre looking. The R is a new body style like the Pacificia....I think of it as more "cutting edge". The best part of the styling is that it definitely looks different than anything else on the market and the badging is very "Benz". For those of you who never experienced the layout of a 2+2+2.....it is the perfect family car. Everyone gets their own seat and hauling six passengers is comfortable and easy in/out. What is a sports tourer????? I don't know, but I know I love this layout. I could have bought a very nice top line sedan, but for my family of four (2 teens) this suits me better. As far as power and handling....the 350 is very nice (I'm sure the 500 is even sweeter). The cabin is very refined and the driver...passenger and 2nd row seats are some of the best I've experienced. The third row has got to be the best around. Who will buy this car??? Turning radius is much better that a Pacifica.....the 7 speed trans is super smooth. What did Mercedes miss??? how about a back-up camera...how about rear heated seats standard...how about satellite radio standard.....overall, way too many options. One thing that nobody has mentioned is that the R will likely retain a higher residual value than anything similar from the big 3 (especially if MB does not give into deep discounting). Go ahead...compare it to a Pacifica.....but its still a Benz.
  • shellymeister2shellymeister2 Member Posts: 115
    Hi Again everyone....

    Merc- You have an very interesting way of ignoring the main thrust of what people say on this forum.

    Essentially many of the posts (not only mine) have been pointing out that the R-Class is essentially a Minivan & in design & execution is most similar to the Pacifica (which is also a Daimler product, which you always conveniently forget).

    Because the R is a minivan (and again a minivan does not have to have sliding doors to be considered a minivan- witness the Odyssey in the rest of the world market) a number of posters pointed out that the Honda Odyssey sold here in the USA might be a somewhat worthy competitor to the R-Class, like it or not.

    In a kind of proof of the worthiness of the Odyssey, I thought it was interesting to point out that C & D in the middle of a test of 2 SUV's, took the timre to point out how good the Honda Odyssey was, and how it was a better choice than the 2 vehicles they were testing.

    Now Merc, you should write a letter to C & D to complain about how the staff of C & D has the nerve to bring in an unrelated vehicle by basis of comparison when they are testing SUVs?

    The point C & D is trying to make is that it has gotten ridiculous out there, that because of a soccer mom stigma & image problem, people are embarrassed to drive Minivans! How silly does it get? C & D goes on to point out that Odyssey still has room for some serious luggage hauling even with all 8 seats in use. While the Explorer, R-Class, Commander, & Pacifica have useless trunks when all seats are in use. You call that good design?

    So lets sum up- Odyssey powerful 244 hp V6, good handling, huge cargo capacity, huge number of seating arrangements, power sliding doors, leather interior, decent stereo + 6 cd changer nav & DVD out the door for the low 30's is quite a match for the mediocre equipped V6 R Class. But only for those who are individualistic & don't care what the others say.

    I would suggest reading both articles, Merc + the negative sidebars- then tell me what you think.

    And one more thing Merc- compare apples to apples- the V6 equipped Pacifica vs. the V6 equipped R350 not the V8 equipped R500.

    Questions for cane04: Are you SURE the turning radius for the R is smaller than the Pacifica? Not that its such an important issue, but I know the wheelbase of the R is significantly longer than the Pacifica, and very often longer wheelbases will cause bigger turning circles.

    What was the sticker on your R350?

    Did you buy or lease?

    The residual on the R350 for 3 years is about 64% which is pretty good, but is obviously a guess on the part of MB as this is a completely new model. There are quite a few vehicles in a number of price categories that have similar residuals.

    Remember also cane04, that despite the good residual (assuming you leased) the actual market value of a 3 yr old R has yet to be determined.

    Also a 64% residual on a 60K vehicle translates into a about a 22K drop in value over 3 years, but my guess that the R if bought new today at about 58-60K will be worth closer to about 28K as a trade-in after 36 months (assuming 12k miles a year). If I'm right, thats not terrible, but it's not great either.

    cane04, enjoy your new R, because after all, you only live once. :shades:
  • ctsangctsang Member Posts: 237
    Both R and Pacifica look similar and both are from the same company. For most people on the street, if it looks and smells like a duck, it is a duck.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Tell you what, why don't you create a thread in which you can compare the R with whatever you like. On that thread maybe your point would be taken more seriously. I really don't like the R-Class like I do Mercedes' cars so I'm pretty much done with the b&f on it because if I'm ignoring your point, you keep trying to plaster it on the wrong board, where none of the few R-Class owners that have shown up so far don't really don't care enough to want to hear it.

    The R is not a minivan to me. So we'll have to agree to disagree there. If the R is similar in design and execution to a Pacifica (which it is) then it can't be a minivan because that would mean that Chrysler has two minivans in the same showroom. Doesn't make sense.

    Why would I write C&D about the Pacifica when they didn't nearly say the same things about it in relation to the R that you and others here have? It really isn't that big of a deal to me since I wouldn't want either vehicle. You're the one with this need to compare a Honda and Chrylser to the Mercedes (not C&D) and declare that the R is some type of ripoff, which is what you're implying.

    You talk about a fair comparo between the R350 and the Pacifica yet the roadtests I've seen so far are about the R500, and a loaded one at that. So why not take your own advice and wait until a R350 is tested and then do your comparo thing instead of calling the R500 overpriced when the Pac/Ody you're so crazy about don't compete with the R500 anyway.

    We've been over this time and time again about the Honda and Pac being a competitor to the R-Class. They're all part of the people mover segment so of course they are competitors in that sense, but that is where the similarities end for me. Neither of them is going to drive and/or have some of the different engineering/features of the R-Class. Do I think the R is worth up to 71K for a loaded R500? Nope. Do I think think a Honda minvan or a Pacifica is the same class of vehicle for far less money? Nope. Are they somewhere close or in between? Yes.

    M
  • rjlaerorjlaero Member Posts: 659
    I really don't know if the R Class is going to get anybody the "prestige" that a Benz is supposed to have. It might actually go in the other direction and have people scratching their heads to the logic in spending 70 grand on an Alabama made product that looks more like a domestic mini van than a premium grand touring machine. Part of the mystique of MB and other high end cars is a bit of sex appeal. A car that looks sophisticated and classy, as well as one that has a lot of presence to it. And the R class doesn't fit the bill. At least not to me.

    I think Audi's new Q7 is hands down on the best looking 7 passenger wagon/SUV vehicles in this segment. I'd rather spend my 60k there, but it'll have to wait until the springtime.
  • ctsangctsang Member Posts: 237
    When I saw the price, I was amazed. I thought the R would only cost slight more than the Pacifica, like SLK slight more than Crossfire. Costing twice as much, forget about it. Beside, the S has more prestige and you can get one less than this people mover. MB made a big mistake in pricing this car and they now have another money-loser. Too bad.
  • markc5markc5 Member Posts: 19
    OK GUYS Owner of A R500 here. We just took our first road trip in the R. about 3.5 hours of driving time. Oh my gosh!!! It was great. I was a YUKON XL owner before this car and boy what a difference. There were 5 people in the car besides our luggage. We were all very comfortable and impressed with the ride of this machine. It literally floats on air(the car has 2 settings for the ride controlled by pneumatics). My one complaint is that we did have to fold one seat down to get all the luggage in for our 3 day trip. That is an area of weakness that I may have to address with some type of rack system for longer trips. But what a driving machine. Great power to get around the slow pokes. We received a bunch of compliments on the car. Multiple people stopped to ask us about the car and complimented the styling. The car got about 19-20 mpg on the highway. that was with a lead foot driving it. You can all say what you want but this one is a keeper. This ain't your dad's minivan folks. It was great pulling up at this swanky resort and the bellman opens the door and says "wow, this is the first one I have seen on the road and it is awesome" {I thought about this discussion room laughed to myself and I gave him an extra 5 bucks for that} :shades:
  • lovemyclklovemyclk Member Posts: 351
    "Both R and Pacifica look similar and both are from the same company. For most people on the street, if it looks and smells like a duck, it is a duck. "

    Yea... like saying the Aston Martin DB9 (Ford PAG) and Mustang are coupes from the same company, so they must both be "ducks" :)
  • chirpchirp Member Posts: 194
    Nice report. That's the stuff I like to hear and it sounds like you are indeed the target market for the R-class. Although, I'm having trouble with the styling, I have grown to like the majority of most recent MB styling changes as they have become more "sporty" and less "geriatric" over the recent years. If you get a roof carrier makes sure to get a Yakima rocket-box or something sleek to go with the style and please no SEARS carrier!!!!! Ha!

    Continue to enjoy it and let us know if you encounter any mechanical problems or otherwise. My C32 is now going in for an air pump. This car has had lots of issues and it only has 20,000 miles on it. Oh well... :(
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Yeah that is amazing isn't it. Sounds like to me from that post one is under the impression that the SLK and Crossfire are the same car too. Oh well.

    M
  • freddybbfreddybb Member Posts: 95
    As an owner of both a 2000 ML 430 (with seven seats) and a 2005 Honda Odyssey (with 8 seats), I was eagerly looking forward to the R class as a "minivan substitute". After checking it out in person when I took the M in for service a couple of weeks ago, I am sorry to say that there is no way I could switch out of the Odyssey for the R. My M seats 7 (with kids in the third row), my Odyssey seats 8, and the R seats 6, with very little luggage room left over.

    I guess with three kids and occassional visiting in-laws (so that we need 7 seats when we all go out together) my family is definitely NOT in the target demographic for the R class. I like the looks of it and I am sure it functions very well, but it forces too much of a compromise for families like ours.

    If it had at least 7 seats, and a deep well behind the third row like the Odyssey for storage, then it would be almost a no-brainer for me. There is NOTHING wrong in wanting the R as a minivan substitute -- but the Odyssey still rules from that perspective and the R is kind of neither here nor there. Just my opinion.
  • chirpchirp Member Posts: 194
    'scuse me, did you say the "O" word? :)
  • markc5markc5 Member Posts: 19
    I really do wish the comparisons to a minivan would stop. This car is so different from a minivan it isn't funny. We NEVER considered buying a minivan. What a difference in performance and styling. Sure an Odyssy will pack more storage for people and luggage. However, you give up space for more sleek styling. But I will tell you that my R class does't have much less trunk space than my Ford Expedition did behind the third row which was why I bought a YUKON XL to begin with. Then I figured out that the only time I missed the space was on road trips 4 or 5 times a year. The rest of the time we used the extra space to store junk. AGAIN AN R-CLASS IS NOT A MINIVAN!!!! This is with out a doubt a performance touring vehicle trust me.
  • rjlaerorjlaero Member Posts: 659
    Allright, we'll give in. It's a MAXI-van
  • shellymeister2shellymeister2 Member Posts: 115
    Hi again guys!

    Thanks to chirp & rjlaero, we've got some HUMOR injected here!

    (Sorely needed)

    Just a couple of thoughts.......

    Marc, The problem with your comparing the trunk space of an Expedition to the R is that the Ford can handle 5 passengers and still maintain enormous trunk space.

    Comparing the Yukon XL to the R doesn't work vis a vis trunk space in that in the stretch Yukon, there is still substantial luggage space behind the 3rd row with all seats occupied.

    The R only compares directly with the Pacifica (don't shoot me) in that both vehicles only seat 6 and even with just 5 passengers aboard, there is relatively little luggage space. 5 passengers in just about any other vehicle in this category would still allow ample luggage space.

    Marc, I'll ask again- have you ever driven an (oh no, he's going to say it)Odyssey?

    Why? You claim the R is a "performance touring vehicle" (sounds suspiciously like MB's ad campaign for the R), but does it out-perform (oh no, he's going to say it) the Odyssey? (The R-350 of course).

    And what is so terrible about being compared to (oh no, he's going to say it again) a Minivan?

    When did the (oh no, he's going say it a 4th time) Minivan become persona non grata in our lives?

    Isn't it all just a bit silly? :blush:
  • markc5markc5 Member Posts: 19
    Dear shellymeister I am officially waving the white flag on this issue I am 40 years old with 3 kids and the thought of driving dare "I" say a minivan makes me nauseated (When I would rather be driving a 911) I was very excited to see this minivan alternative by MB. My R500 does definately outperform the "O" word minivan. Again we needed a car like this where the kids can spread out more in individual seats rather than benches like in the expedition. Obviously you must not have children because if so you would understand the phrase "DADDY HE'S TOUCHING ME!!!!" :D We don't have that problem in the R. Hence the reason to have a third row. You must admitt that the average minivan is not a sexy alternative to those with families who are trying to maintain some of the "testosterone" from the good 'ole days. So in conclusion you win I give up I should swallow my pride purchase a minivan and look forward to my empty nest days all the while saying to my wife in the words of my back seat occupants on long road trips "ARE WE THERE YET.......ARE WE THERE YET"!!!! LOL :P
Sign In or Register to comment.