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World's Cleanest Cars
electrictroy
Member Posts: 564
Subject: 2005 - North America's Cleanest
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CHANGES: The Insight used to be #1, but Honda upgraded their GX in 2004, so the GX now fills the top spot. Also new to the list is the Escape Hybrid & several Partial-Zero Emission Vehicles (PZEV).
GREEN SCORE = scale from 0 to 100, where 100 = no pollution
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Alternate Fuels/Hybrids
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57 Civic Natural-Gas GX cvt (SULEV-2/PZEV)
56 Insight cvt (SULEV-2)
53 Prius cvt (SULEV-2/PZEV)
51 Civic cvt (SULEV-2/PZEV)
40 Escape cvt (SULEV-2/PZEV)
Standard Cars
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44 Corolla manual (ULEV-2)
43 Echo manual (LEV-2)
42 Sentra manual (SULEV-2/PZEV)
42 Civic Lean-Burn HX manual (ULEV-1)
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ALSO:
Electric
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51 2-seat EV1 (discontinued)
51 Rav4 (discontinued)
27 = average car
source: http://www.greenercars.org
troy
.
CHANGES: The Insight used to be #1, but Honda upgraded their GX in 2004, so the GX now fills the top spot. Also new to the list is the Escape Hybrid & several Partial-Zero Emission Vehicles (PZEV).
GREEN SCORE = scale from 0 to 100, where 100 = no pollution
.
Alternate Fuels/Hybrids
=======================
57 Civic Natural-Gas GX cvt (SULEV-2/PZEV)
56 Insight cvt (SULEV-2)
53 Prius cvt (SULEV-2/PZEV)
51 Civic cvt (SULEV-2/PZEV)
40 Escape cvt (SULEV-2/PZEV)
Standard Cars
=============
44 Corolla manual (ULEV-2)
43 Echo manual (LEV-2)
42 Sentra manual (SULEV-2/PZEV)
42 Civic Lean-Burn HX manual (ULEV-1)
.
ALSO:
Electric
========
51 2-seat EV1 (discontinued)
51 Rav4 (discontinued)
27 = average car
source: http://www.greenercars.org
troy
0
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
"If driven from California to Washington, DC, the Honda Civic GX natural-gas vehicle would emit fewer reactive hydrocarbons than that released by spilling a single teaspoon of gasoline."
http://www.greenatworkmag.com/gwsubaccess/01novdec/special.html
Midsize Cars:
Toyota Prius 53 PZEV
Accord Hybrid 40 ULEV 2
Kia Spectra 39 PZEV
Toyota Camry 38 PZEV
Accord I4 38 PZEV
Hyundai Elantra 38 PZEV
http://www.canadiandriver.com/news/030103-4.htm
for 2005, i don't think there is one available.
ford went with a smaller engine which get's a bit better mileage.
The Focus 2.0 purchased in the clean states and running on their LS gasoline is a PZEV. The same HW based car is a Tier II-Bin3 throughout the rest of the country on HS garbage. Very clean and a PZEV none-the-less. This is if you purchase the right one. There are also 2 others. A Tier II-Bin5/LEV-II for the entire country and a stinking LEV available here in Chicago and a few other large cities. This includes Milwaukee and Racine, WI., Lake County IL., Chicago, IL. Gary, IN. Atlanta, GA., and Denver, CO. The EPA lists these areas as Clean Fuel Fleet areas yet Ford (they are not the only guilty manufacturer) and others use it to dump their worst emitters :-( I really wish Ford would get rid of these LEV’s as it stinks to live in some of the larger cities in the Midwest and south and have to purchase a LEV if you decide on a Focus or whatever. It was not that long ago that the Focus 2.3 (late 03/early 04) were all PZEV’s no matter where they were purchased. They did not give the non-clean fuel states the PZEV warranty of course but they were very clean none-the-less. If only they would have advertised the fact! The same problem arises with the 2.3 L Ford Escape HEV as well. A PZEV in the clean states but only a LEV in a few large cities in the Midwest and South :-( Why, I have no idea?
Good Luck
Wayne R. Gerdes
www.latimes.com/news/local/state/la-me-wheelfeb22feb22,1,2-276729- - .story?coll=la-news-state&ctrack=2&cset=true
To get that url to work, take out the space after 276279- there is no space there, it should read 2-276729-.story
Hosts, why have long urls stopped working? When I create a new message and post a long url, the url is wrong. This only started happening a couple of days ago.
of course, i still lose the sibling rivalry to my sister who has a gen 2 prius.
The PZEV Ford Focus 2.3 is one of my favorites!
Since you own the Focus and have hopefully spent some time in your sisters Prius II, what do you like and dislike between the two? Which trim of the Focus do you own? I was partial to the ZX5 Premium w/ leather and a stick :-D
Both are actually as clean as one another (Tier II-Bin3) sans CO2 output with the Prius II’s FE taking it out front but not in the short term given the production emissions discussed in detail over 6 months ago. I have to assume you love the performance, handling, price, and larger overall interior room of the Ford vs. the FE, rear seat room, and luxurious amenities of the Toyota minus the Sunroof. Are there any other small details between the two you might be able to share?
If I could find a used 05 2.0 L PZEV loaded to the nines with leather, side impacts, TC, ABS, and a sunroof but with a stick and for $5K less then new invoice Well you know, we can always wish
In direct regards to this forums topic, besides the 2 - 05 DCC’s receiving 9.5’s on the EPA’s new scoring sheet, the 05 PZEV based HCH and Accord are two top picks with SULEV-II/Tier II-Bin2 CARB and FED ratings respectively while also receiving very high FE for their respective classes in the real world.
Good Luck
Wayne R. Gerdes
QUESTION:
Why does Ford have three emissions zones?
- California-compliant states
- non-california 45-State version
- Chicago & other midwest cities
What's the deal with that?
The advanced Focus diesel is just a test bed and it will not be ready for 06 sale. It just went on the dyno 3 weeks ago for the SCR and DPF fitments and testing. The Tech lead is shooting for far beyond ULEV as his design is shooting at the PZEV spec w/ the hybrid drivetrain on the Meta-One but ULEV seems plausible without given what he has planned. The problem with the SCR CAT is it uses a Bi-Fuel fill nozzle (Urea and Diesel from the same nozzle but 2 different ports) and the Oil companies have not decided it is in their best interest to bi-fuel as every station would need an upgrade.
It is the Focus Diesel that was shown around the US to the car mags if that was what you had read but that diesel was nowhere near ULEV qual’ed. This is what Mr. Zafer Shaikh is working to overcome.
Second question: $’s.
Good Luck
Wayne R. Gerdes
DPF?
Last I heard, the urea canister was supposed to be refilled every ~50,000 miles at the dealer. No need to modify fuel stations.
troy
Your source is incorrect. Ford is looking at alternatives but they have already designed the co-fuel system for use with the Meta-One. I do not think it is a practical solution given the oil companies involvement but it is one that works.
Good Luck
Wayne R. Gerdes
No one's mentioned the VW Lupo 3L. It uses a tiny 3-cylinder engine to achieve 70mpg city/88mpg highway!
Also, it has the ability to turn-off the engine when stopped, like a hybrid.
troy
Is it a Diesel Vehicle. Hope this vehicle comes to USA.
No.
troy
The small particles which come from diesel exhaust are particularly dangerous because they are coated with a mixture of chemicals such as polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, nitroaromatics, benzene, dioxins, and other toxicants. The particles act like a special delivery system which places these toxic chemicals deep within our bodies. Some asthma medications use the principle of delivering a beneficial drug in a fine inhaled aerosol. Diesel exhaust is like a perversion of a drug delivery system which delivers hazardous toxicants into our lungs. The particles are retained in the body along with the toxic chemical hitchhikers which would otherwise be quickly eliminated.
http://www.fuelcelltoday.com/FuelCellToday/IndustryInformation/IndustryInformationExternal- /NewsDisplayArticle/0,1602,5656,00.html
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And yet for a European surrounded by HALF of your cars powered by diesel, you seem amazingly healthy.
Your article about particulates was accurate, but omitted important information about *gasoline* particulates which also dangerous. (Or Carbon Monoxide which suffocates.)
The article also omitted information about Ford's new particulate filters to clean up the exhaust & bring it to SULEV standards.
troy
I would say a lot more people in the USA and EU die from smoking and second hand smoke than from diesel car exhaust. CNN just announced that as much as 95% of ALL cancer is smoking related.
Gasoline particles do not compare to diesel particules. Diesels without filters produce more than 1000 times as much fine particles as gasoline cars and they are coated with toxic substances.
I agree that particle filters MIGHT be a solution. I still would like to see proof that these filters are effective over 100,000 miles. Furthermore it is a mayor problem that these filters simply aren't there. None of the old cars and only a few of the newer cars have them. Does your diesel have a filter?
Of course, smoking is very bad for you, but I can choose not to smoke and to avoid rooms where many people are smoking. I cannot choose to avoid diesels.
I wish it was true that 95% of all cancer is smoking related. Weren't they talking about lung cancer only? Indeed, in the past most lung cancers were smoke related. My brother in law is an example of a person who never smoked and still got lung cancer. According to his physician these cases are on the rise, as are diesel cars.
By the way, diesel doesn't only cause lung cancer: http://patient.cancerconsultants.com/news.aspx?id=31194
I questioned the CNN source that said 95% of ALL cancers are smoking and second hand smoke related. I will do more research as that seems odd.
However, till a few years ago, nobody realized how dangerous the fine diesel particles are. Lately many studies have show the horrible negative effects, but now there is not turning back. Too much money has been invested in diesel and politicians don't like to impose rules that will hurt their own industry. Luckily it seems that a lot can be done with filters. The problem is that filters (and low sulfur fuel) need to be pushed by the public and/or the government. This takes (too much) time, however.
Hybrids are also becoming popular here in Europe. The new Prius was voted European car of the year 2005. I think hybrids could be the future, also in Europe, but it will depend on how fast the "diesel maffia" can bring a reliable filter technology to the market. If they can, Europe might stay with diesel. If they can't diesel will loose, because more and more people are concerned about the negative health effects.
Do people really drive fast over there like you hear about? If so that would negate any mileage gain you would get with the Hybrids. I would be surprised if the Prius would go 100 mph for any real distance. That is another plus for the modern diesel cars that shine at higher speeds.
The only exception is Germany where there is no general speed limit on the highways. However, many times you will encounter road signs that limit speed on certain stretches. And then again, the intensity of the traffic often doesn't allow you to go that fast.
I agree that hybrid cars do not shine at high speeds. The Prius will not even be able to do more than 100 mph for a long time, especially if the highway is going up and down a little. But then again in practice 99% of the Europeans will never be able to practice these speeds for any period of time. So I think that even in Europe the hybrid approach is attractive.
Yes, modern diesels can reach very high speeds. But that doesn't take away the fine particle problem. It is this problem that makes me a little bit of a "crusader" against diesels. It's only since a few years that fine particles show up in the public debate and many people still are not even aware of it. We all should be, it's a real problem.
I assure you that, once you know about it, you will read about it everywhere. The diesel lobby sticks their head in the sand. We shouldn't, as it seems possible to solve the problem with filters. These filters should be perfected a.s.a.p. and it should not be allowed to sell a new diesel (any new diesel, also lorries, etc.) without an effective filter.
In Europe, mostly smaller countries, with the population well packed, they have smaller streets, fewer huge highways...MANY Europeans do most of their driving on small city streets or city streets of some kind.
Most long distance travel is done by train. You rarely have families of seven loading up the ESSUVEE and hitting the road for a 3,000 mile trek.
The Prius is NOT the best car for the AutoBahn, so if you commute on that road every day, don't buy a Prius.
But if you are in the VAST MAJORITY of European cities you use a smaller car for commuting, and Prius will SHINE for you !! PERFECT FOR YOU !! Cleaner too !!
The maximum speed limit in Germany on all highways is 100 kmph, except for the Autobahns, unless a lower speed limit is posted. As I recall, the speed limit in town is 60 Kmph, but I never saw a town that didn't actually post their individual speed limit.
Still the argument doesn't change. The fact that a Prius can only sustain a maximum speed of 100 mph or so is not a problem, even in Europe. Only if you are an "Autobahn" adept AND you choose the right place AND you choose the right time, only then will you find your Prius to be too slow. In all other cases (>99% of the time) the Prius is fast enough.
Culliganman(my next set of rubber will definitly be performance rated)
railroadjames, "Toyota Prius 2004+" #4122, 12 Mar 2005 7:16 pm
http://www.carpages.co.uk/toyota/toyota-avensis-part-1-02-03-05.asp
http://www.anwb.nl/published/anwbcms/content/binaire-bestanden/pdfs/auto/tests/filename339- - - - - - - - - - - - 54_126571.pdf
The results for diesel cars:
http://www.anwb.nl/published/anwbcms/content/binaire-bestanden/pdfs/auto/tests/filename339- - - - - - - - - - - - 48_126581.pdf
Indeed, Toyota rated very well in these tests.
All this explains why I'm a little bit of a "crusader" against diesels. The standard diesels are VERY dirty, because of the PM emissions, which are lethal. Still it seems that with filters and other new techniques you could solve the PM problem. It's now up to the customer and the politicians to make sure that, from now on, only near-zero PM diesels are allowed to be sold. This should also apply to lorries, construction equipment, etc. For the moment almost all diesels sold are still dirty.
The only reserve I make is that I would like to see proof that these new filters will continue to be effective over more than 100,000 miles. Once I have this proof, and all diesels sold are "clean", you won't hear me anymore on "diesel kills".
By the way: I just heard that for the moment VW will stop selling the Touareg V10 TDI in the USA:
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/d/78743
They are not able to deliver the necessary proof about environment impact to the EPA. Didn't I tell you that, once you aware that "diesel kills", you will news relating to that everywhere? This is what I call good news, because the V10 TDI is the dirtiest car in the world. Things seem to be moving a bit.
Unless things have changed since I lived in Germany, there is almost more construction on the autobahns that here is clear unlimited-speed portions. So the Prius would do just fine for many stretches of the autobahn... about 60 km/hr!
In 1990's GM kept saying that Hybrid will cost 10 K more and down came Prius at 23K and took the market by storm.
Better the Europeans dont repeat the mistake of GM.
But even if the particle problem would be solved with filters, it would still be difficult to use a diesel in a Prius, because it's more difficult to fire it up and shut it down. Furthermore, from what I understand, the Atkinson cycle gasoline engine in the Prius is almost as efficient as a diesel with filters (filters seem to reduce efficiency with 8% or so). So maybe there will never be diesel-electric Prius, but who knows!
Not to mention the fact that hybrid technology improves low end torque, and diesels excel at low-end torque. So it is less of a match than with the adkinson cycle gas engine, which lack low end torque.
However, there is already a thread on diesel-electric...
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I wonder how many particles are emitted by the tanker trucks refilling your gasoline cars 1.5 times more often? Or refineries processing 1.5 times more oil-to-gasoline?
There's more to emissions than just the tailpipe. One must consider the whole chain. Converting a Jetta from gasoline to diesel increases +15 MPG, and reduces the amount of tanker trucks/refinery emissions.
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And finally, you keep saying gasoline particulates don't matter, but every week I read a new article about Gasoline Soot being linked to cardiovascular disease (diesel soot stops at the lungs, but gasoline soot's small size can be sucked directly into the blood vessels).
troy
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Nonsense. The diesel Lupo 80MPG/3L doesn't have any problem shutting off & turning on again.
Troy
Hmmm, gotta what that "reply" button. I never said the diesel engine would have trouble shutting down and turning on again. I was replying to a different post.
Hi electrictroy. Can you show me some articles that talk about gasoline soot being sucked into the blood's vessels? I would really like to read about it.
I agree that gasoline engines also seem to have a PM problem. From what I understand the PM emissions in gas engines are mainly produced during the cold phase and at high loads. Diesel engines are more "regular" at producing small particles.
From what I understand Prius addresses the problem by "pre-heating" the engine. A thermos-type container stores three liters of coolant at close to boiling temperature for up to three days. When the Power button is pressed, hot coolant is injected into the engine coolant passages, avoiding a cold start. This reduces emissions at startup. Furthermore Prius avoids high loads for the gas engine by using electrical assistance, if necessary.
Well, if the Lupo doesn't have any problem shutting off & turning on again, why is there a button to disable the engine shut off at idle? And why is the Lupo programmed to wait 4 seconds before it will shut off the engine?
http://www.usatoday.com/money/consumer/autos/mareview/mauto497.htm
There must be reason for this and from what I understand it's because the engine shut off and re-start of the diesel engine can be quite annoying. In the Prius you hardly notice the engine being shut off and re-started.
-- So the 3L Lupo had no air conditioning, no power steering, no anything. You can add such options, but there'd go your three-liter claim.
-- The economy-enhancing, easy-rolling tires and lightweight suspension transmitted not just noise but a roar to the passenger compartment on cobblestones, bricks and rough asphalt.
-- What's hard to overlook is the transmission. It's the key hardware that makes Lupo go so far on so little fuel. But even a fuel-economy zealot would have trouble being charitable. To work its magic, the transmission seeks the highest gear ratio that the engine can handle without stalling, resulting in acceleration so sluggish it almost can't claim to be acceleration at all. It'll cruise 80 miles an hour all day. But ask it to change speeds and oh, woe.
-- It takes maddening moments before the gearbox is fully engaged and the car will accelerate strongly. You jam the throttle harder. Then the whole shebang hooks up and, screech, the torque-rich diesel engine tries to turn the skinny front tires into smoking shreds of rubber.
This is not serious! What a difference with a Prius that turns out to be more comfortable and easier to drive than a comparable classic car. The only thing you could say that this is a test of an early model. Does anyone know of a more recent Lupo 3L test? I'm curious to see if VW managed to get it a little bit closer to being a real car.
The difference is you can buy two Lupo's in the UK for the price of one Prius. Looks like a stripped Prius is about $34,000 in the UK. Loaded the Prius is $39,000. The Lupo TDI with leather, AC and sunroof is about $22,000. with the $17,000 left over you can buy a stripped Lupo and still have $4000 left over for about 150,000 miles worth of fuel. With the choices in diesel cars in the UK I cannot imagine anyone buying a Prius. Even if you are an anti diesel zealot, most of the car makers have very clean diesel cars in the EU that are far better than the Prius in every respect.