Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

Are Hybrids "loss leaders" for Manufacturers?

124»

Comments

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    No, you can't ignore those costs!

    Unless what GM President says is true. They added the 2 billion in R&D to their advertising budget and wrote it all off. In which case the people of Japan & the USA paid it with the loss in tax revenue from Toyota. With a big bank account Toyota can dump a lot into a project and not feel it. They have DEEP pockets.
  • electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    You can "write off" advertising costs? If so, the laws need to be re-written.

    .
    So, Toyota says it costs $1900 per Prius for the hybridization. Are they, or are they not, recouping that cost? i.e. Does Prius Hybrid have a pricetag $1900 higher than the non-hybrid would cost?

    troy
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    You can "write off" advertising costs? If so, the laws need to be re-written.

    It is one of many Big Corporate loopholes...
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    you: So, Toyota says it costs $1900 per Prius for the hybridization.

    me: what does that mean, can you tell us specifically? Is it the parts? Is it parts and labor? Is it parts, labor, overhead, and design?

    I can tell you that it is very expensive to design and build a vehicle that does not share parts with other vehicles. Low volume vehicles have very high costs because if it costs $100M to design car A and the same for car B, and car A sells 100K units, and car B sells 500K units, which is going to need to make mucho profit? Car A. And if you have a factory and you're only running it at partial capacity as the Prius must have been from the sales numbers you saw that increased every year, then for those first few years a lot of money was lost. A factory has certain fixed costs (property tax, repairs, heat, lighting, security ...) no matter if you barely run it.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Toyota is going to decide in June exactly where in North America it is going to build hybrids.

    so all you "woe is me, cars built in Japan bad bad bad" guys can finally buy a hybrid built in the USA.... :)
  • mirthmirth Member Posts: 1,212
    ...constructed in the USA anyway, with 90% of the parts built in Japan.
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "You can "write off" advertising costs? If so, the laws need to be re-written.

    It is one of many Big Corporate loopholes..."

    That is not a "big" corporate loophole. Advertising costs are part of the cost of doing business, and can be written off by all companies, and rightfully so.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    That is not a "big" corporate loophole. Advertising costs are part of the cost of doing business, and can be written off by all companies, and rightfully so.

    You are right it is for all businesses. It is a big tent and many questionable charges get thrown into that column. Hummers, corporate jets, trips, lunches, dinners, R&D on the hybrids, "loss Leaders".
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    And what do you think the cost of that Prius Super Bowl ad was? That was 30 sec right? Maybe $500K? $600K? That means that ad meant they gave a Prius away every second. That is why high volume is critical for products, or else you charge $40K - $80K for low volume vehicles like Porsches?
  • railroadjamesrailroadjames Member Posts: 560
    Chicago Tribune today had two Toyota dealers ads informing the buying public that they now have several Prius cars INSTOCK. This would indicate to most that there is a change in the winds at Toyota and the old saying of "supply & demand are both running strong. Ads on T.V. and much more cars on the lot equal hybrid success.
    Culliganman(gas @ $2.09 today)
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "Chicago Tribune today had two Toyota dealers ads informing the buying public that they now have several Prius cars INSTOCK. "

    I don't know if they are lying, but several of the Los Angeles Toyota dealers are showing Prius inventory on hand on their websites. Toyota of North Hollywood said they had 7...
  • electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    Troy: So, Toyota says it costs $1900 per Prius for the hybridization.

    Kernick: what does that mean, can you tell us specifically? Is it the parts? Is it parts and labor? Is it parts, labor, overhead, and design?

    .
    (shrug) Ask Toyota. Since they say "per car", I'm guessing they're just talking about the hardware, not R&D.

    troy
  • electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    "That is not a "big" corporate loophole. Advertising costs are part of the cost of doing business, and can be written off by all companies, and rightfully so."

    .

    I can think of no logical reason why Corporations should use advertising as an EXCUSE to pay less taxes & screw the government. I don't get to write-off my expenses.

    troy
  • tempusvntempusvn Member Posts: 119
    "I can think of no logical reason why Corporations should use advertising as an EXCUSE to pay less taxes & screw the government. I don't get to write-off my expenses."

    Probably because you aren't operating a business, but are subsisting on wages.

    As an example that a regular person can envision.

    If you own a vacation cottage, and you rent it out when you're not using it, you may want to place an advertisement to rent it.

    When it comes time to pay taxes, you don't pay taxes on all the rent you got, you pay taxes on the PROFIT.

    PROFIT = INCOME - EXPENSES

    The Advertising was an expense that was necessary for you to produce the income, so you subtract it from the income, and pay taxes on the remainder.

    It's not an exuse, it's the way businesses work, whether it's one person with a rental cottage or a multi-national.
  • electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    Ahhh yes, I see your point.

    Still if companies like GM or Toyota are labeling their Hybrid R&D as "advertising", that's still wrong, and something should be done to eliminate that loophole. No wonder most corporations pay Zero taxes.

    troy
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    you: Still if companies like GM or Toyota are labeling their Hybrid R&D as "advertising", that's still wrong, and something should be done to eliminate that loophole.

    me: It is not necessary to call R&D = advertising. R&D is an expense, and Advertising is an expense. All expenses are deducted from revenues, and if anything is left that's what gets taxed. These aren't "loopholes".

    you: No wonder most corporations pay Zero taxes.

    me: If a company has no profit they pay no income tax. The income tax rate for a company is typically 40%. But even if the company pays no income tax, they still have paid or generated considerable taxes. How you ask?
    They must contribute 7% of wages to social security, they must pay Unemployment Insurance, they pay for health insurance which otherwise might be under Medicare, and they pay wages to employees who pay income taxes and social security.

    So just by being in business a corporation such as GM or Toyota generate large amounts of revenue for the governements, and keeps down government spending, just by being in business, whether they pay income tax or not. Look at the big picture and not just 1 single point of an issue.
  • electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    The corporation doesn't pay SS Tax, or Healthcare. They simply compute your wage as $40 an hour, subtract those costs, and give you the remainder as $30/hr to your paycheck. YOU are paying those expenses, but you don't realize it, because it's hidden.

    Troy
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    OT: Ask your employer how it works. Yes, you pay 7% or so from your paycheck, but your employer also has to match that, which doesn't come out of your paycheck. See: http://www.ssa.gov/pubs/10059.html
    If you make $20/hr and work 40hr you get $800 gross. You'd have $56 taken out of your check. but your employer has to match that $56 and send it to SS.

    And many people who work at mid-to-large size companies get health insurance (usually the employer will pay 80%).

    Those SS, Medicare, health, 401K contributions, advertising, property tax ... are all expenses that get subtracted from revenues. They are all deductible, before profits are calculated. Believe me, I've just taken graduate classes in Accounting and Economics.

    And I'm sure the system is very similar in Japan, as competition in different industries usually means that expenses are large compared to profits. A company may need to pull in $1,000,000 in revenue, have expenses of $950,000, to make $50,000 profit, and then get taxed 40% on that $50K, to net $30K.
  • SylviaSylvia Member Posts: 1,636
    OK - off-topic. Let's get back on track please.
This discussion has been closed.

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles