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Toyota Prius Software Problems
This is the place to discuss any software errors encountered by Prius owners. I'm starting this discussion because I think it is important, and should be discussed separately from the generic "Prius Problems & Solutions" discussion.
The Prius uses computers to a degree not seen before in a production vehicle. Pardon the cross post, but to start out the discussion, I wish to repeat part of post 134 from the "Problems and Solutions":
md_sailor, "Toyota Prius Owners: Problems & Solutions" #134, 22 Feb 2005 11:15 am
I was driving home last week in my 04 Prius, watching the mpg reading creep up to 48.0, when I stopped at a stop sign. Immediately after starting up, my dashboard lit up with multiple failure warnings, including "VSC", the red triangle around an exclamation point, a yellow circle with exclamation point, etc. The car continued forward, but just on battery power. Since I was only 2 miles from home I decided to continue, and made it into my driveway by coasting the last 1/2 mile.
The car then stopped and would not move forward. I turned it off and read some of the manual. After a few minutes, I pressed the "ON" button and this time the gas engine started, although the mass of warning lights stayed on. I got the car into the garage, where I left it running to charge the battery (garage door open of course). While I called Toyota, the car stopped.
After having it towed on a flatbed to Toyota the next day, the car was fixed by reprogramming the ECM (engine control module). So far there is no explanation from Toyota for the failure, I'm trying to work my way up to someone who actually knows something about the computers. My confidence in this car, and Toyota, was badly shaken by this incident.
---------------------------
The problem here is that there was a software error in the Prius. What most people do not realize is that it probably wasn't fixed by the dealer.
What happened: The Prius in question hit a point in the software code that caused the whole program to crash.
How it was overcome: The Toyota dealer installed the same program back into the car. There is no way that Toyota made a program modification and then put it back into the car.
This means that the Prius will fail again if those exact circumstance occur again. It also means that every Prius with that same software version may fail in the same fashion
There are only a couple of possibilities here:
1. Toyota already had a fix for the problem, and hadn't installed it in all cars. Possible, but unlikely.
2. Toyota simply put the old code back into the vehicle and hoped for the best. Probable.
Hopefully, Toyota at least had the smarts to download the entire memory contents (or enough code to troubleshoot the problem). A simple error code is not usually enough to determine why the code failed, only where it failed.
I find this troubling because the basic HSD technology and programming is now about 7 years old. It should not be hitting failure points like this.
The Prius uses computers to a degree not seen before in a production vehicle. Pardon the cross post, but to start out the discussion, I wish to repeat part of post 134 from the "Problems and Solutions":
md_sailor, "Toyota Prius Owners: Problems & Solutions" #134, 22 Feb 2005 11:15 am
I was driving home last week in my 04 Prius, watching the mpg reading creep up to 48.0, when I stopped at a stop sign. Immediately after starting up, my dashboard lit up with multiple failure warnings, including "VSC", the red triangle around an exclamation point, a yellow circle with exclamation point, etc. The car continued forward, but just on battery power. Since I was only 2 miles from home I decided to continue, and made it into my driveway by coasting the last 1/2 mile.
The car then stopped and would not move forward. I turned it off and read some of the manual. After a few minutes, I pressed the "ON" button and this time the gas engine started, although the mass of warning lights stayed on. I got the car into the garage, where I left it running to charge the battery (garage door open of course). While I called Toyota, the car stopped.
After having it towed on a flatbed to Toyota the next day, the car was fixed by reprogramming the ECM (engine control module). So far there is no explanation from Toyota for the failure, I'm trying to work my way up to someone who actually knows something about the computers. My confidence in this car, and Toyota, was badly shaken by this incident.
---------------------------
The problem here is that there was a software error in the Prius. What most people do not realize is that it probably wasn't fixed by the dealer.
What happened: The Prius in question hit a point in the software code that caused the whole program to crash.
How it was overcome: The Toyota dealer installed the same program back into the car. There is no way that Toyota made a program modification and then put it back into the car.
This means that the Prius will fail again if those exact circumstance occur again. It also means that every Prius with that same software version may fail in the same fashion
There are only a couple of possibilities here:
1. Toyota already had a fix for the problem, and hadn't installed it in all cars. Possible, but unlikely.
2. Toyota simply put the old code back into the vehicle and hoped for the best. Probable.
Hopefully, Toyota at least had the smarts to download the entire memory contents (or enough code to troubleshoot the problem). A simple error code is not usually enough to determine why the code failed, only where it failed.
I find this troubling because the basic HSD technology and programming is now about 7 years old. It should not be hitting failure points like this.
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This discussion has been closed.
Comments
So how do we get action out of Toyota on this one.
Don't know. The best thing to do is report it to the National Highway Transportation Safety Board. They keep a database of problems reported by owners . If enough problems come in, they will start an investigation.
Unfortunately, as cars (not just the Prius) get more dependent upon computers, the manufacturors get more and more like Microsoft. It is very expensive to do comprehensive testing, so they get it to where it works the vast majority of the time, then release it to let the public do the final testing.
I'm not saying Toyota doesn't test their software or that they release with known problems; but every software house has to evaluate known problems before a software release, and one of the criteria is "how often will this occur"? If the answer is "very seldom", they may deem it not worth fixing at this time, especially if they are up agaist the wall to release the software so the company can sell cars.
We can only hope they are at least getting downloads from the problem cars that will tell them what to fix later... but I doubt it, mostly because it would mean putting "debug" code into final software releases.
How long did it take Microsoft to get a stable version of Windows to the market? They released Windows 1.0 in 1985. The first version to be reasonably stable was Win2000. And even at this same moment I can't get the Windows time line on the Microsoft site to display properly and I'm using WinXP. It took Microsoft 15(!) years to get Windows more or less right. Buggy software IS a problem and nobody makes software that is 100% error-free.
I think we will have to live with it. Without software modern cars, let alone the Prius, wouldn't exist. What we could maybe do is give Toyota as much feedback as possible. I hope they have a program to collect information on these kind of problems.
By the way, if the software fails in your Prius you can still pull over to the roadside. The basic steering is still mechanical. I don't want to think about the effect of software glitches in a Boeing 777 or an Airbus 340.
Your analogy is not valid. Windows software is bombarded with software from outside vendors and hackers trying to make it fail. The Prius software is totally protected from outside influences and still it fails. If you are driving 70 mph down the Interstate and the car shuts off in heavy traffic you could cause an accident. If your computer gets the blue screen of death you just reboot and keep on surfin'. In the Prius you have to wait for a tow truck to come get you. If you are lucky enough to avoid an accident. What other cars beside the hybrids are plagued with these software glitches that cause the car to quit going down the highway?
You say: "Windows is bombarded with software from outside vendors". Well, my computer wasn't bombarded because I would only run a few Microsoft applications on it. Furthermore the Prius computers also have to talk to embedded microprocessors in all kind of components.
I agree that a Prius software problem can be more dangerous than a Windows problem, although that depends on what you use your Windows for. However that has nothing to do with the point I am trying to make and that is that 100% bug free software is an illusion and that you will always need time to reach a more or less stable version.
Finally you ask: "What other cars beside the hybrids are plagued with these software glitches that cause the car to quit going down the highway?" Well, I had a Mercedes E320 that I had to bring in for a software patch. They had noticed that in some cases the BAS (brake assistant) would just fully lock the brakes for no reason. A few Mercedeses came to a grinding halt on the Autobahn. As far as I know it didn't cause any accidents, but it could have. I have also heard of BMWs having serious software problems.
That is a real problem. I like computers, I question if they belong in our cars. Failures happen but I have never owned a car that just failed. Even my worst cars since my first 1947 Pontiac always gave warning of impending problems.
Of course the added complexity is a problem, but for me the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages. Furthermore I think that the cases where computers in cars saved lives (ABS, ESP, quicker response of engines to get out of a dangerous situation) far outweigh the cases where computers killed people because of software glitches.
The dealers just report that the car stopped, no further details are sent back to Toyota. The same software is just reloaded to replace the scrambled code in the Engine Control Module (ECM) and the customer is sent on the way. This is obviously In System Programmable (ISP) code, and it is getting corrupted when the computer fails. Not a good design and one that needs investigation. A conscientious company would work on the problem instead of ignoring it.
I sent a two page FAX to Toyota Customer Service, FAX: 310-468-7814
Does anyone have the direct contact info. for the Nat. Highway Safety Institute?
I encourage everyone with a software problem to open a complaint with the National Highway Transportation Safety Board:
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/
Only by reporting the problems will the solution be forced on the manufacturors.
Interesting, I just checked on the 2004 Prius and there were about 6 complaints of various problems that sounded like software / ECU related (car stopped dead, etc). In several cases, the dealer said the software had to be either updated or reprogrammed. For one thing there appears to be a TSB on the ECU software. BTW, that is about 1/5th of the total complaints registered for the 2004 Prius.
Windows 95 was introduced in 1995... Windows was earlier.
http://www.computerhope.com/history/windows.htm
So, any advice on what to say/how to deal with the dealership on getting this fixed?
Welcome to the forum. My advice would be the same as others on this thread have urged. Report this to the NHTSA soon. They will compile the reports and force Toyota to do something. Toyota will not let out how serious the problem is. Toyota may be working on it. Everyone that has experienced this so far were told by the dealership that they had not heard of any such problem. It sounds pretty widespread, and a very dangerous bug in the Prius firmware. Just reseting the system is not going to fix the problem, only put it off till another time. If it does not get taken care of before the warranty is up you may be facing a big repair bill, or in the case of one owner body work.
So, any advice on what to say/how to deal with the dealership on getting this fixed?"
That is the purpose of this thread. Contact the NHTSB and report the incident. When enough reports are accumlated, they will open an incident investigation. Once that occurs, it will hit the press, causing some publicity problems for Toyota.
Unfortunately, I don't think Toyota put in any software error reporting capabilities (other than a simple error code, which doesn't help a programmer find the problem). Windows includes a feature that allows the user to send information back to Microsoft when something fails. Those reports provide exact data to the programmer, who then can work on the problem.
Eventually, Toyota will probably have to insert code into the system that traps information about what the software is doing when it fails (or else they will program some special test cars with this information), in the hopes that they can find the problems.
It would appear at this time that Toyota is merely reprogramming the Prius with the same (flawed) code that failed the first time.
I don't see why a computer problem is necessarily worse than a mechanical failure. The failure of a fuel pump on the freeway or ball joint failure or even a tire blowout can lead to serious consequences.
If you have been driving for more than a half century and never had a sudden failure then you are damned lucky. I can tell you lots of horror stories, such as the water pump on my 1964 Volvo going out at 70 mph leading to a rupture of the radiator. And I assure you there was not a line of computer software in that car.
Regards,
David (Whose 2004 Prius just passed 14,000 miles with 49 mpq and not a single software or hardware problem. Easily the best car I have ever owned. AND a bargain.)
Good point. Now I think of it, I have been in a very dangerous situation because of failures only twice in my life (I drive since 1973). Both were caused by a fuel pump that quit in the middle of the freeway. One of the two incidents happened in a tunnel and I still remember the sight of those BIG lorries that were coming in om me at 60 mph.
Both incidents happened in cars with no software at all. I have never had any problem with software so far. This is of course not to say that Toyota shouldn't do something about software problems, when they occur. They should!
Mechanical problems and failures are the result of material failures, which can happen. In general, it causes a single point failure. Keep in mind that the Prius is subject to these failures plus additional potential software problems.
Software problems are the result of massive amounts of human generated software code. The use of software code in the Prius (having to use software more than a standard car to drive the dual propulsion system) requires a larger code, and more chances for error. Plus, that error shuts down the entire vehicle. A tire can be replaced with a spare, and a CV Joint is not expected to fail unless it is old or mechanically defective. A software bug that is never fixed will lurk around waiting to occur again.
The real problem is that Toyota may not be doing anything about the source of the problem - the code itself.
These parts can be replaced and the trouble is no longer an issue. With a software glitch that just gets reset you never know when it will come back to get you. I read in the Wall Street Journal yesterday that JD Powers rated Toyota below average on reliability. They were 28th out of 39 brands. What happened to them? Maybe too big too fast.
"Mechanical problems and failures are the result of material failures, which can happen. In general, it causes a single point failure."
Really? Try telling that to the thousands of owners of Chrysler vehicles who had to be towed after transmission failures a few years ago, or the VW/Audi owners in the tens of thousands who experienced total vehicle failure because of ignition coil problems. Those cars were brand new. Those were DESIGN problems, not WEAR problems.
The whole trend over the last 30 years has been to replace mechanical components with electronics because it is so much more reliable. The biggest increase in automotive reliability came when electronic fuel injection replaced carburetors. Remember them? Remember what happened when they got gummed up?
"...Keep in mind that the Prius is subject to these failures plus additional potential software problems."
The Prius probably has fewer mechanical components than any car on the road. Even the accelerator linkage is electronic. And the result is outstanding reliability. Check out Consumer Reports reliability ratings. Prius is at the very top.
"The real problem is that Toyota may not be doing anything about the source of the problem - the code itself."
You have made two assumptions there, without any evidence that either is true;
1. that there is a software problem
2. that if there is, Toyota is not doing anything to fix it.
Regards,
David (whose Prius never misses a beat)
"I read in the Wall Street Journal yesterday that JD Powers rated Toyota below average on reliability. They were 28th out of 39 brands."
Must have been the National Inquirer. A search of the on-line Wall Street Journal found no such article.
David
"I read in the Wall Street Journal yesterday that JD Powers rated Toyota below average on reliability. They were 28th out of 39 brands."
I went to the J.D. Power website. The headline for the latest Dependability ranking by Manufacturer is as follows:
J.D. Power and Associates Reports:
Toyota Motor Sales Captures Top Corporate Ranking in Vehicle Dependability
While Toyota and Honda Continue to Dominate, the Big Three Domestics
Make Important Strides in Long-Term Quality Improvement
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: June 29, 2004
Only one vehicle ever quit on me. I was driving on the LA freeway in an Aivs rental car that just died with me in the left lane. I was able to coast to the shoulder and was less than 100 feet from an emergency phone. That car was an AMC Pacer with just 13 miles on it. Avis brought me a Chevy something or another and I have not had a problem since. I do maintain my vehicles, any little noise is researched and fixed. I also don't put a lot of miles on a vehicle. My 7 yr old Suburban just turned 49k miles. Our 1990 Lexus LS400 has 84k miles on it. Both look like the day they were purchased new.
You are lucky that your Prius has operated flawlessly. Not all have had your good fortune. Oh, my two worst new vehicles a Honda & a Toyota.
I only know what I read in yesterdays WSJ. I should have kept it but gave it to the stewardess to dump. That was what caught my eye the rating of 28th out of 39 brands. I don't subscribe to the online WSJ, maybe someone that does can find it.
That was almost a year ago. Much has happened since then. I am talking yesterdays news. It really is not important, I take what JD Power and Consumer Report says with a grain of salt. It was the fact that so many on this forum live by those two sources that I repeated what I read.
As a matter of fact it was Customer Service Index study by JD Powers. Look it up Toyota is not the best automaker if you are experiencing a problem. In fact they are below all the big 3 brands. Here is the 2003 chart. I am sure the one in the WSJ was the 2004 that does not show any improvement in the way Toyota handles customer problems. Which is the reason for this thread, Poor customer service.
http://www.jdpa.com/presspass/pr/images/2003058afull.gif
Let's stick to JD Powers. Go to http://www.jdpower.com/cc/auto/auto.jsp# (new vehicle advisor).
Click: "Help me choose"
Click: "Compact" (then Next)
Click: "Mechanical Quality" and "Long Term Dependability" as being very important to you
Click: "Update List"
What do we see? Prius is number 1
Also please read:
http://www.consumerreports.org/main/detailv2.jsp?CONTENT%3C%3Ecnt_id=575861
Can we now stop bashing the Prius? As far as quality is concerned it is a very good car.
Also, let's go back to the topic of this thread "Toyota Prius Software Problems".
Furthermore, the "added complexity" argument is true, but the electrical motor can give you a backup in case of emergency. A few years ago 40 people burned to death in a tunnel in France. They couldn't get out, because their cars shut down because of oxygen starvation. A Prius could have gotten out in EV mode.
Of course, these kind of situations do not happen very often, so I wouldn't buy a Prius for that. On the other hand, so far, software problems do not seem to happen that often either (see the reliability statistics), so they do not stop me from buying a Prius.
FYI, they did pay for the tow truck and a one day rental car charge.
Will post again if more software problems develop.
Welcome to the Forum. Please do keep us posted if this happens again. There are those here that are in denial that the Prius has serious problems. If you report this to the NHTSA it will help get Toyota to research and fix their firmware.
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/
You have made two assumptions there, without any evidence that either is true;
1. that there is a software problem
2. that if there is, Toyota is not doing anything to fix it."
I'm not going to bother responding to most of your comments, since they prove my own statements about how critical software is when it controls more and more of the vehicle.
1. It is a software problem because the fix was not mechanical - the fix was to put the same software back into the Prius. Then the vehicle worked again. I don't know what triggered the problem, it may have been a combination of mechanical inputs or electric current levels or whatever. But it caused the software to stop working and the car died.
2. I didn't mean that Toyota wasn't fixing it; I said that if they are not getting data then it is unlikely they can find the error. If the dealers are just putting the same code back in the car and not downloading specific debug data, then Toyota has very little idea where the problem lies. Software engineers are always interested in fixing their code. But one has to know where the problem is before it can be fixed.
It is almost certainly NOT a software problem because there are somewhere around 70,000 2004 and 2005 Prii on the road, all, presumably running the same software. If it were a software problem there would be massive numbers of cars failing. You almost certainly have a hardware problem in your control module and an intelligent dealer would have replaced it.
I personally know 6 other people with 2004 or 2005 Prii with a combined mileage approaching 100,000 miles. None have ever experienced a problem of any sort. I know someone with a first generation (2001) Prius approaching 120,000 miles with no problems of any kind except for tires (a known problem with the first generation Prius).
David
There is the answer. The Toyota dealer service is rated way below average. You should read through the trouble encountered with the Prius II. I have not seen a vehicle that gets towed to the dealership more than a Prius. Try to find a new car that has a worse record here on Edmund's over the last year. You will see several people that were interested in the Prius including myself that would not buy one with all the troubles. They all seem to be control/computer related.
bonster, "Toyota Prius Owners: Problems & Solutions" #79, 14 Oct 2004 10:16 am
It is not listed on 2005 models (5 TSBs all for Oct.2004 and earlier).
Make : TOYOTA Model : PRIUS Year : 2004
Manufacturer : TOYOTA MOTOR NORTH AMERICA, INC.
Service Bulletin Num : 04009 Date of Bulletin: MAY 13, 2004
NHTSA Item Number: 10007672
Component: ELECTRICAL SYSTEM
Summary:
SPECIAL SERVICE CAMPAIGN 40D TO REPROGRAM THE ELECTRONIC CONTROL UNITS
(ECU). *TT
You are obviously a newcomer to the Forum so, welcome. If you followed the hybrid threads since 2000 as I have you would know that I was an early proponent for the Prius and hybrid technologies. I still consider the Insight the best commuter car available in this country. The HCH has a better overall reliability record if people posting are letting us know any problems they are having. The Prius has had many problems whether you have had any or not. There are people trying to invoke the lemon law in CA on the Prius. You can pick any car from any country and go to the appropriate thread. I dare say you will not find a vehicle that has gotten towed to the dealerships in the last year as much as the Prius. They do die for no apparent reason and the dealers are just doing a reset on the control computer and hoping the trouble will not return. There is a reason that Toyota ranks so poorly on the customer service ratings at JD Powers. They are poor at taking care of customer problems. All cars have problems from time to time. It is how it is handled by the dealers that leaves a lasting image in your mind.
How do you explain the posters that have had their new Prius towed when it just quits? I doubt you will find another car on Edmund's with as many DOA failures as the Prius. I'm sure you have read all the cases of the car just quitting. Is that to be expected? I have read every post on the hybrid boards and the Prius is not the jewel in Toyota's crown. Even some of the real diehard Prius fans admit that there are issues with the car. My complaint is not as much with the Prius as with Toyota not accepting the problems. I have never heard of so many cases where the dealer was clueless about a problem with a car.
PS
There are 5 cases on this thread that is less than a month old. If I was researching a car and that many all-out failures occured in one month that car would be scratched off my list. You can go back a year on the VW TDI boards and not find that many total failures, where the car was towed to the dealer.
I may be old but I can still read. See post #44 that poster claims there are 18 TSB's on the Prius II.
ceric, "Toyota Prius Software Problems" #44, 2 Apr 2005 5:51 am
That is easy. The Prius is a new high tech piece of machinery. It attracts the same people that respond to and support CR. I would bet that a much larger percentage of Prius owners subscribe to CR than say the Toyota Echo or Ford Focus. Those surveys are only as good as the data they get from respondents. I have no doubt the Prius is popular with the owners. Even many that have had them crap out on the freeway and had to be towed still love the car. That does not make it a reliable car just a well liked car. People love VWs and they have more than their fair share of faults. I just bought a new Passat TDI. I just hope that it is a good one. They were rated very high by CR for years in spite of their faults.
And you would seem to think that the posters to this list represent the majority of Prius owners...
jprice
This topic IS a place where folks who are having a problem can come and talk about possible solutions. We have all kinds of "problems" topics about all kinds of vehicles. The idea of the topics is NOT to cast a positive or negative light on the vehicles, although those kind of comments are invariably going to come up. That's just the nature of message boards. So rather than go off on a tangent about what postings in a problem topic MEAN, let's move on.
Thanks for your cooperation and participation!
PF Flyer
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News & Views, Wagons, & Hybrid Vehicles
Let's stick to that please.
PF Flyer
Host
News & Views, Wagons, & Hybrid Vehicles
The "stringent" laws to which you refer require that the vehicle have the same problem 3 times, or be out of service 30 days in the first year. You cannot get your money back after a single event.
"It is almost certainly NOT a software problem because there are somewhere around 70,000 2004 and 2005 Prii on the road, all, presumably running the same software. If it were a software problem there would be massive numbers of cars failing. You almost certainly have a hardware problem in your control module and an intelligent dealer would have replaced it."
It could be a hardware problem, but it is more likely a software problem. The reason I say this is that the dealer didn't replace hardware, he replaced software. If the problem was bad computer hardware, the problem would have re-created itself shortly. Since the cars in question did not have a re-occurrance of the issue after the software was reloaded, it was almost certainly a software bug.
The reason the other Prius owners have not had this problem is simple. The combination of inputs to the computer unit that cause the software crash (rendering the Prius inoperative) is very rare. Thus the failures are very rare. But if all Prius vehicles have the same version of software (which they certainly should), and the dealers are just installing the same version back into the machine, then every Prius out there is subject to the same failures. But obviously it won't happen often. I don't own a Prius, but I doubt at this point that I would consider this a "deal breaker". But I am concerned that Toyota (and other manufacturers) may not have considered how to use owners as "field beta testers", which Microsoft has managed to to with their built-in "report software error" features in Windows. At least that way Microsoft gets information on what killed the application in question. BTW, my understanding is that there are over 30,000 known bugs in Windows, but they don't show up that often so they aren't fixed, or get fixed gradually as MS updates their versions.
If you prefer to put it in a nicer fashion, I'm concerned that the manufacturers have not put in place some means of having their vehicles report back exactly what happened to kill their programs, including "dump" data so that the problems can be analyzed and fixed.
RE: Recalls. The problem has not been reported to the NHTSB often enough to warrant an investigation. That is the reason the car has not been recalled. That, and the possibility that Toyota doesn't yet have a fix for the problem (and may not know exactly where the software "bug" resides). They cannot recall a problem until they fix it, and they can't fix it until they have data. And most importantly, they will not gather data unless they think they have to, so report any incidents to the NHTSB, for the good of the Prius and future software processes in automobiles.