The Future Of The Manual Transmission

Kirstie_H · May 2005

It always has been!

rsholland · May 2005

Sorry, must have been geezing...

Bob

rsholland · May 2005

You may want to re-post your question over here too:

davem2001, "VW brand experience - good or bad?" #461, 16 May 2005 10:44 am

Bob

rumc3 · May 2005

I see lots of "kids" driving Jettas, etc, because, apparently, they're "cool." But after hearing from a younger co-worker about how the almost-new Jetta she bought had ball joints fail at 25,000 miles and how the dealer told her she'd have to pay for it because it was "normal wear and tear," I say "NO THANKS!"

An experienced VW mechanic told me long ago that "German cars require lots of maintenance." Now, they're apparently using junk parts on them, too.

rsholland · May 2005

I agree. A year or so I visited a Honda/VW dealer and was talking to the guys who do the service write-ups. Both of them said that VWs have far more problems than the Hondas.

Bob

seminole_kev · May 2005

I still haven't driven a DSG equipped car yet, curious about modulating the shifts.

nippononly · May 2005

don't give in - three pedals only! :-)

seminole_kev · May 2005

well in my mind, I don't know how you can really drive the car without that third pedal to modulate the engagement, but I'd still like to try a DSG to see what it is like.

nippononly · May 2005

just don't forget where your roots are!

carlisimo · May 2005

Hey when you try it, I'm curious to know how it feels like when you slow to a stop. Does it know to go to neutral? Or do they have some other anti-stall measure. Following the same idea, how does it engage first when you're just starting to move?

I guess when I think about it I can see the appeal too, but I hope I never tire of the all-your-hands-and-feet dance.

stickguy · May 2005

I did test drive an A3 with DSG. It did shift quick and tight, much better than most autos I've driven.

IIRC, as you slow down, it downshifts along the way, so you drop gears as you slow. It doesn't hold a high gear or drop into neutral and coast. It is a little disorienting at first, hearing and seeing downshifts when you haven't pushed a clutch or moved a lever!

Functionally, I actually liked DSG. Not enough to give up the third pedal (probably), but if my requirements changed, forcing me into 2 pedal mode, this is a decent compromise.

daysailer · May 2005

into "two pedal mode" would be to loose the use of my left foot! Even in that dire circumstance, I would attempt to devise a hand operated clutch before I would acquiesce to the shiftless life.

potemkin · May 2005

The next innovation I'd like to see is a clutch that won't engage if you down shift to where it would over-rev the engine. I'm not sure how it work or if there's a safety issue that needs to be worked out, but I'd sure like the same peace-of-mind that the rev limiter gives me applied to the shift lever.

stickguy · May 2005

How about an electirc clutch? That's what the DSG and SMG have. If they can hook it up to buttons, why not an actual clutch pedal?

Heck, they have virtual brakes now (MB) and gas pedals, why not a virtual clutch? It would be like a driving simulator.

carlisimo · May 2005

Great idea potemkin. I used to think high-end cars did that (I read something in a Porsche magazine when the Boxster was coming out, but I didn't know anything about how cars actually worked back then). But I guess it's mechanically difficult given how clutches work.

I'm trying to think of a non-electronic way to do it but no luck. So electronically...

Cars already have fuel-cutoff at redline. So the computer knows when you're revving too high. All you need now is for the fuel-cut off trigger to also trigger a mechanical disengagement of the clutch. I'd rather not use an electric clutch; I don't see how they're going to give that any feel. (It's kinda stupid when they go through the trouble of making electric steering, throttle, and/or brakes feel like simulations of the real thing, when the real thing is what we want in the first place!) Without one, you just need an actuator to push the clutch open. It wouldn't be the fastest thing in the world, but cars tend to have some margin of error in their redlines.

potemkin · May 2005

I was thinking that all it would take is a secondary lever to act upon the throw-out bearing should the on board computer determine that the vehicle is traveling too fast for the gear that the driver has selected. In this case the clutch lever tied to the left foot would release but the secondary lever would keep the pressure plate disengaged.

Of course, everything I know about transmissions I got here: How Clutches Work, so I'm sure someone here smarter than I can explain why this isn't feasible.

benjaminh · May 2005

This has probably already been said here, but I see the cell phone as one of the contributors to the decline in the manual transmission. I'm one of the last people on earth who doesn't have a cell, but I can imagine it would be a little hard to shift my 02 Accord and talk on the phone at the same time. A cousin of mine, who shifted all here life and had a 1990 Integra coupe with a manual, recently bought a brand new top of the line Passat, with an auto. She's a doctor, and sometimes must talk on the phone in her car, and so another manual person was lost to the auto.

Another reason for the death of the auto is that there used to be a huge gap in mileage between autos and manuals. Back when autos only had three speeds, and manuals had five, you might get 25% better mpg with a manual. These days the mpg difference with 5 speed autos is very small.

Still, I think if you really love driving a manual can't be beat. And I still think that over the life of the car you're going to save money. Nearly a grand less at the time of purchase, and then a couple more mpg, and my guess is that manuals last longer and that repairs cost less too (is that true?)

Ben

shipo · May 2005

Hmmm, I've had a mobile phone since 1985, and I've never had anything but a manual transmission in any of my new cars. Having said that, I've also made sure that a "Hands Free" option was available for me as well. Currently there are a number of states that have laws on the books that prohibit using a mobile phone unless you are using a hands free option of some sort, so I don't really think that mobile phone usage will really have much of an impact on manual transmission usage in the future.

To take it a step further, on cars like the new E90 BMW, you can order the Bluetooth option that effectively integrates a Bluetooth capable phone into the car's audio system, controllable from the steering wheel. BMW has then integrated a microphone in the headliner and projects the voice of the person on the other end of the phone connection through the audio system speakers. As a result, your hands are kept on the controls of the vehicle through all phases of a call operation, allowing you to shift while you talk.

Best Regards,
Shipo

andys120 · May 2005

I'll back Shipo up on this point. I got my first cell in 1986 when I drove a new Prelude
5 speed and had a succession of stick shift cars afterwards with no problem.

I currently drive a Steptronic BMW but that's for medical reasons and has nothing to do with a desire to drive and talk at the same time, which I try to avoid. I believe it can be distracting and one should give ALL their attention to driving.

shipo · May 2005

Personally I don't see the difference between talking to someone on the phone (assuming a hands free option) or talking to someone in the car itself. True, both can be distracting, I just make sure that my first priority is "Driving the car", even if that causes some pregnant pauses or other such gaps on the conversation. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

kyfdx · May 2005

nippononly · May 2005

manual shifter and cell phone user here...and not even hands-free. I'm one of those people on the poster for unsafe cell phone uses, LOL. I know, boo hiss, boo hiss. It's legal here for now, and I'm wondering just how closely I will adhere to the law when they outlaw it.

iluvmysephia1 · May 2005

and shifting my Sportage 4x4 into 3rd gear at the same time. To enjoy a manual tranny you must enjoy driving and shifting, not eating, shifting and talking on the cell at the same time. I don't think it should be legal to drive and talk on the phone at the same time. People drive crappy enough and don't know the driving laws as it is. Put a stupid phone in their hands and things get a whole lot uglier very quickly.

If we could do without cell phones for so long why is it suddnely so obligatory to gab about nothing constantly while driving now? Cell phones should only be used while parked in the car.

Here's another thought to ponder as the SAS pushed and fouled their way past the Sonics into the Western Conference Finals and continue on in the playoffs: is the turn signal quickly becoming extinct in America? Especially on the freeway. :confuse:

xkss · May 2005

I could care less for them.

nippononly · May 2005

turn signals are mandated for use when changing lanes on the freeway in my state. Would that the cops would give more tickets for this sort of thing. Instead, it is speeders, speeders, speeders, and I know there are already more than enough of them to keep the cops' hands full.

iluvmysephia1 · May 2005

I think you joggled the answer out of my mind when you said that the cops are so busy catching speeders they don't have time to give tickets to people not using their turn signals. To me, if the law is to put your turn signal on then you should put your turn signal on. It's not negotiable, ya know what I mean? Have the American people gotten so prideful, nasty, dumb and lazy that they can't even show proper respect for each other on the streets and freeways and turn on their turn signals? I don't know how many times I've waited while drivers come up to an intersection wondering what they'll do. Then all of a sudden they turn in one fell swoop, without signaling, of course. Meanwhile, maybe I could've gone the way I intended to go without waiting. By turning on your signal you are communicating your intention to other drivers on the road. Hello, Americans, that is a good thing. Not bad or evil or stupid. Good. Use your turn signals and drive responsibly.

davem2001 · May 2005

This has probably already been said here, but I see the cell phone as one of the contributors to the decline in the manual transmission

I do agree with this. People posting here downplayed it and said "well, you can get hands free"... Face it, people here are enthusiasts - they would try to figure out a way to drive a stick even if their left leg was amputated!...I do agree, for the less hardcore, the use of cell phones has contributed to even fewer people wanting a stick shift.

shipo · May 2005

"Face it, people here are enthusiasts - they would figure out a way to drive a stick even if their left leg was amputated...I do agree that the use of cell phones has contributed to even fewer people wanting a stick shift."

Hmmm, tried it, couldn't make it work. :mad: Maybe that was because instead of having my left leg amputated, I just broke my right leg and partially tore that foot off. I just couldn't figure out how to sling my right leg, cast and all, over the console, and then operate the clutch, brake and gas pedals with just my left foot. As such, I learned how to drive Mrs. Shipo's mini-van left footed with my right leg slid over into the passenger's foot well. Mrs. Shipo the proceeded to get very used to driving my 530i to work every day, and after months in a cast she was heard to say, "Yeah, and as soon as his cast comes off, I'm going to break the other one."

Needless to say, the very day my cast came off, I went out and practiced with the 530i to see of the foot was strong enough to use the brake pedal. Happily it turned out to be "good enough", barely. So far at least, I still have both of my legs, and they are both still reasonably functional. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

smguser · June 2005

"Most of the time I shifty fairly quick, but of course that is a little "rougher" for passenger comfort. When I have someone else in the car, I tend to shift slower and smoother. When I've got to scoot in a hurry, I slam through the gears. Some times you need a combination of those types on the fly."

The real race driver does not shift quickly for sake of speed. The real race driver shifts smoothly to keep car balanced in traction. Have you ever seen what happens when you drive on limits of the car? I bet you thought that it is when you start skidding. It is not. It is when you have maximum speed at any time and you slip (not skid) the car.

When you race on track you are supposed shift as if you had a passenger.
For record I recommend advanced racing books from Ross Bentley and Skip Barber. They will cure "fast shifters".

Also sequential gearbox is to eliminate mistakes by a driver as human being is the weakest link in modern racing set. At high speeds and tough competition on turny courses it is not unusual to make mistake. If you downshift too low then you can say good buy to main bearings. Sequential shifter with electronics may prevent that.

Ina ny case you will never be faster with manual gearbox than with sequential on downshifts... unless you want to replace your clutch and dogs frequently. You are supposed to double clutch with throttle blip. With sequential you just blip on transition. That's what I do with my beemer keeping clutch alive while I can still downshift by 3-4 gears fairly quickly (braking is a limit) comparing to what I could do with manual being quite proficient on that type of gearbox but not expert (I am extremely smooth on manual gearbox though in any car after a few miles of try).

Just try to imagine a mistake in F1 car equipped with 900 horsepower engine. If it was not sequential then it would be a grinding effect to mechanics.

For those who wonder about flexibility of driving on different gears, M. Schumacher has taken second in one of GP (I believe in Spain) years ago... while almost whole race he ran on stuck 5 gear and it was not Ferrari. You gotta know dynamics and matching between engine and gears to achieve that, but it is doable.

seminole_kev · June 2005

I think you missed the point as you didn't address how to modulate the speed of engagement (my whole question/point of my previous post). I'm not talking at the track. Schumacher's not hauling 4 people around to dinner, jumping out in front of a semi or trailering a load in his Ferarri. These are the things that I'm not quite sure how you address on the fly with a SMG style tranny. I'm the first to admit when a technology can do something better, faster, stronger, etc than I and certainly understand it can shift faster than I can, but how can I vary it on the fly?

At the track I can certainly see the advantage of a SMG style tranny though. Also, there is the simple part of the fact I enjoy the clutch pedal and rev matching. Just part of the experience that I enjoy. Not knocking those with SMG/DSG gearboxes.

nippononly · July 2005

taken an extended look for a few different models that supposedly have a manual "standard", I am definitely a little disheartened. Accord EX and Camry SE, dealers just laughed and basically said there was no way they could get one. Mazda 6, virtually none were in stock in a 50-mile radius, and the three I could find in such a large area were all strippers. Ditto the Altima, although I was pleasantly surprised to find that my nearest Nissan dealer had a couple of stick shift Maximas in stock.

There is a very common theme: the automakers seem to assume that the only people who buy manuals can't afford a "real" car so they only build stripped cars with stick shifts.

Now, one thing I thought was notable and was pleased to see was that if you move up a step, to sub-premium cars like the smallest Audis, the TSX, and other cars that are meant to be sporty, the dealers really do stock manuals in enough numbers to offer a variety of colors and option levels. The exceptions are Volvo, where the only stick shifts on my local dealer's lot were the 'R' cars, and Saab.

Funny: my local Audi dealer, which also sells VW, does a pretty good job of stocking manual-equipped Audis, yet NEVER orders manual shift VWs. However, VW has apparently just launched a lease promotion on the new Jetta VE, manual shift only, and as a result they just ordered a short stack of them. You could see the looks of displeasure on the salespeoples' faces as the truck was pulling in, which I was coincidentally there to see.

I mentioned it somewhere else here, but it bears repeating: calling the manual "standard" on these models is just insulting our intelligence - it is purely a ploy to advertise a starting price that is some $800-1000 lower than what the automatic that they actually make available will sell for. At the level it has reached, it would show more integrity to begin making the manual shift a no-cost option, and calling the automatic standard in these cars.

michaellno · July 2005

Just did a bit of research:

-> found 4 Accord EX manual transmissions (2 black, 1 green, 1 silver); 2 others (1 black, 1 grey) at a different Honda dealer

-> 1 Camry with a stick

-> 4 Altimas (3 SE, 1 S) with sticks

Not encouraging, I agree

davem2001 · July 2005

What you describe does make sense to me - generally, a person looking at an Accord or Camry is going to want an auto, or if they want a stick it's because they want to save some money, not necessarily for any "fun to drive" reason....

Whereas, the person who wants an Acura TSX is more likely to want the stick.... same with Audi versus VW... They're willing to pay more for a "premium" car.

Like it or not, I think the manufacturers do a pretty good job of matching supply with demand when it comes to stick shifts..It's obviously in their best interests to do so, and I'm sure they put some thought/research into it..... If they built a bunch of Accord EXs or Camry SEs with sticks, they'd probably have a bunch of unsold ones on the lots at the end of the year...

nippononly · July 2005

that model has been going that way for a long time. What I don't understand is the Accord - that has been a model with a lot of stick shifts in the mix for a long time. What happened? They changed that for this generation?

michaell: I am jealous! If I had come across a stick shift EX cloth in green last weekend, I might have pulled the trigger right on the spot. As for the Camry, your post has my eyes popping out of my head.

I actually think the automatic in the Accord is pretty responsive, but I know that if I had one it would begin to irritate me in short order. And you can feel the torque converter sucking the power away from the wheels.

I say if the mix of a model drops below 10% equipped with a manual shift, it is deceptive advertising to call it "standard".

michaellno · July 2005

The Camry had an MSRP of something like $18K, so I can't imagine that it has a lot of other equipment on it.

The Accords had sticker prices of $22,700, which, accoriding to the Honda website, is standard.

Question: do you think you could get one of those EX's for $20K?

nippononly · July 2005

I am quite sure you could yes, especially since the '06 will be at dealers in a month's time, and will have exchanged the much-hated taillights for something new and fresh! :-P

Honda has behind-the-scenes cash to dealers on the Accord, and invoice is at least 10% below sticker.

timothyaw · July 2005

to manufactures only putting manuals on low end cars is the last generation Prelude Type SH! I have an 01. With the SH model it has a few features that the base Prelude doesn't have. First the SH is available in 5-speed ONLY. It has the spoiler, leather shifter extra interior lights, ATTS(advanced handling). So there are a few cases where the manual is the top of the line model

nippononly · July 2005

with a few models truly dedicated to sport, they will often make a manual the ONLY option, which of course immediately kills sales! :P

S2000, Civic SI, Corolla/Matrix XRS, RSX-S. STi and Evo. Sentra Spec V? SRT-4 and Cobalt SS S/C? Should be the same for GTO/Corvette and 350Z, but GM and Nissan wanted those automatic buyers! ;-)

michaellno · July 2005

Don't forget, the 1st generation Taurus SHO only came with a stick, and it bombed in the market! 2nd gen SHO (with the V8) only offered the slushbox.

andys120 · July 2005

Don't forget, the 1st generation Taurus SHO only came with a stick, and it bombed in the market! 2nd gen SHO (with the V8) only offered the slushbox.

FWIW the slushbox only version of the SHO bombed worse than the stick only version.

I had a stick shift '91 SHO and found it to be a great engine in search of a good car. :P

shiphro · August 2005

Limited edition (5000) with AWD and a 3.2L engine (also used in Audis and Porsche Cayennes

came w/ a stick only.

Only options were exterior color (blue, red, silver, black) and leather vs cloth.

ratbert · August 2005

"Like it or not, I think the manufacturers do a pretty good job of matching supply with demand"

I disagree. They do a good job of forcing a decision out of people. I know way too many people who bought auto but WANTED stick - only problem was that it wasn't offered or available. I know 2 more people who are shopping for cars now. They both want stick but will probably end up with auto. Example: Saturn VUE. You can't get AWD with stick. Heck, in '06 you won't even be able get AWD with 4-cyl. More product forcing. We want a VUE with 4-cyl and stick. We may have to pay for the BMW X3. sweet 6-spd manual, but $30k.

kyfdx · August 2005

Or.. get a CR-V.. stick, 4-cyl., AWD... EX model.. Only $23K..

nippononly · August 2005

I saw 2 EX 4WD stick-shift CRVs on my dealer's lot just the other day, so unlike some other manufacturers whose talk of a "standard" stick is just that, talk, Honda actually seems to build them and put them out there. Now if only they would do the same with Accord EXs.

Stick shift 2WD and 4WD Element EX's are pretty common too.

ateixeira · August 2005

You can find a Subaru Forester XT with a stick pretty easily. 230hp plus a manual = 60mph in under 6 seconds.

There are some companies still makin' 'em.

-juice

cerberus300 · August 2005

Having moved from the UK to Vancouver just over a year ago, I can say that the car markets between Europe and North America are completely different. Europe is more small car oriented, choosing the "hot-hatch" cars such as the VW Golf, Honda Civic and Vauxhall (GM) Astra. A Honda Civic Saloon (Sedan) is considered a medium size car, and the Ford Mondeo (Taurus) is a large family car. Anything with BMW or Mercedes badges is a luxury and Audi A3 and A4s (and VW variants) are considered an executive car. SUVs are a very small minority. Average engine size is around the 1.5 litre mark. In North America, cars are less than half the price but are larger, e.g. a Ford Taurus is Mid-size, and the sedan Civic is more popular than hatchback but classed as a small car. Large "Family" cars equivalent to the Impala, Chrysler 300, Ford 500 just don't exist in Europe except for the affluent. Average engine size is around the 2.7 litre mark.

Why is this relevant? First, In Europe, fuel is a higher price and automatics just guzzle fuel as they are not efficient in smaller engined cars (these are facts as stated from car manufacturers). The cars are used in both town and motorway/highway settings where you could be going 70+ mph on the Motorway and 30 in town quite often. Due to car pricing, people want cars to last. Auto transmissions generally can't cope and last a maximum of 120,000 miles and cost a fortune to repair (usually resulting in the car being scraped rather than buy a new transmission). Manuals when looked after can exceed 250,000 miles, as was the case of my Dad's Toyota Camry (the gearbox was fine but the clutch started slipping at around the 325,000 mark). No one I know in the UK would touch an automatic gearbox with a 12 foot barge pole, let alone buy one in a car, so generally the option to purchase an automatic is usually non-existant except on prestige models.
In North America, the fuel is cheap (over half the cost of UK or Mainland Europe). Car sizes are larger, engine sizes are larger (to pull the extra weight i guess) and speeds are lower. Average travel distances are larger due to the size of cities. Automatics are better in this regime of cruising and less start/stop traffic. The option to purchase a Manual transmission is rare to non-existant and reduces the options available (e.g. Air-Con). It's also cheaper to buy a new car if the cost of repair if too high.

Conclusion: Manual transmission may well increase in popularity in North America when smaller, more fuel efficient cars are required as fuel prices increase. You won't see Manual transmissions disappearing in the UK and Europe, not with the high purchase costs of new cars and fuel prices.
IMHO: Manuals are more fun, and allow for a better feel for the car. Auto's are boring and gear changes difficult to predict. Also manuals are safer for using the clutch as a brake in addition to the brakes on emergency stops, and safer in snow/ice conditions where clutch (and a competent person) can be used to control/limit the power better than any electronic device. Also, try pulling away up a steep hill (forward or back, dry road conditions) in an automatic without the car rolling downhill at least 3 inches and giving a minor whiplash injury.

herrkaleu · August 2005

agreed.. I'm from germany and move to the US...
hatchbacks and wagons are cars all poeple nd young people buy. preferrably with manual tranny (no dealer will have an automatic available anyway).
Sedans are for old people (at least with models that offer hatch and sedan).
automatic trannies are for disabled people, or old people. for no one else.
In fact, in Germany you can have an autoatic license. when you make an automatic license (with the required driving school and road test in an automatic car) you are NOT allowed to drive manual tranny cars! (with a normal license made in a "normal" car you can drive either type of car).
automatic is for people that can't drive... maybe they shouldn't have a license at all.... :-)
Well, since the camry only was available with auto...we got a Mazda 3. And there is no autoamtic before i retire and can't really drive anymore (maybe then I shouldn'T drive anyway)

nippononly · August 2005

we can count on good ol' Europe to ensure that manuals never disappear from the automotive landscape. The only problem is that even European carmakers tend to NOT offer the manuals (and the diesels) in the United States that they offer in Europe. Pretty soon we are going to have to pay to import a European-spec car just to get a manual shift!

But now I think that day will not come as soon as I was pessimistically thinking as recently as last year. I think sport models and economy cars will still have manuals for a good decade yet, in fairly plentiful supply, concentrated among certain manufacturers (mostly Japanese excepting Toyota, possibly also Ford). The new Fusion AND Milan both offer a "standard" manual shift, and they are brand new in MY '06. I think that is a good sign, even if the "standard" standard proves to be hard to find on dealer lots.

wai · August 2005

In Hong Kong where I came from 4 years ago, when a person get a driver license, he is ashamed to be known that his license is restricted to automatic because his friends will ask him if this is a standard license or not. People will assume that your driving skill is not so good if you get a automatic license. 90 percent of the drivers learn to drive standard even though they will buy an automatic car later.
Because traffic is kind of jam in a crowed city, people will prefer to drive an automatic because its no fun to hang to the clutch while stuck in the traffic. Most cars are come in automatic except economy car or sports car same as in USA.
But sticker price will treat auto as an option for $500 more. High fuel price U$6.50/Gal or repair cost of an automatic is not an issue here as cars are luxury goods any way. People just want to enjoy to drive in a comfortable vehicle.

ateixeira · August 2005

I think the 6 cylinder will not come with a manual, even though the Mazda6 they are based on does offer one.

-juice

The Future Of The Manual Transmission

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