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Comments
3 more light years? That's 18 trillion miles, not a measure of time.....
....but I have to agree with your sentiment. This talk of CVT, PDK and DSG in the same breath is adding dog food to my previous analogy of steak and salmon.
The advancement of automatic transmission technology in the Porsche's PDK and other DSGs is two fold: get rid of the "slush" in slush box by replacing the torque converter with an actual clutch and gear system. And then do it again to always have another shift ready to execute. Once in gear, the clutch is disengaged and there is no "slippage". This has been a fairly complex development process, as the first SMG's were not well received by enthusiasts (e.g. BMW's previous M3's).
CVT technology, if you can generously call it that, doesn't use solid mechanical linkages. It essentially uses glorified rubber bands to "slip" into lower and higher effective gear ratios on a continuous basis. It is a very simple concept. Without a lot of manufacturing challenge. And about 10% of the manufacturing cost of Porsche's PDK or Ferrari's F1 transmissions. Rubber bands are pretty cheap in Japan.
The drive train loss in a CVT is probably less than your grandfathers 3 speed slush box Olsmobile 88. But not much. Figures of up to 25% loss between the engine and drive wheels have been verified on dynoo's. The fact that a Nissan Juke feels fast is probably due to a decent engine and weight of the car; absolutely NOT to the efficiency of the CVT.
Are some CVT's better than others? I'm sure that's true, just as Iams is probably better for your golden retirever than Purina. But when you are trying to decide whether to get a Boxster S in PDK or manual transmission form, thankfully you are getting to choose between salmon and steak. Not dog food.
There is one reason why manufactures use CVT's over DSG's. They are cheaper to design and build. Period. They may be fine for your grandmother and grandfather, but no serious driving enthusiast debating between a DSG and manual is not going to notice the fake rubbery feel of a CVT in vigorous driving. Don't take that mushbox to your local track day if you don't want to feel it for yourself. Mark my word, you will NEVER see a CVT in a Porsche. Their old chicktronic was light years ahead.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
A good CVT doesn't have a fake rubbery feel in serious driving. Unless you have a fake rubbery image of a CVT in your mind, which you clearly do.
If you don't like them, that's your personal preference. But I would take a good CVT to a track day, yes. And I'd take a good CVT over a bad DCT in a heartbeat. That doesn't necessarily mean I dislike DCT, I happen to like good DCTs too. Key word GOOD DCT.
But generally one doesn't have a choice between a good DCT and a good CVT in the same vehicle. It's usually a choice between a manual and either a DCT, CVT, or slushbox. Assuming the manual is available, which in a huge number of vehicles is no longer the case. In that situation you take the best you can get, and that best might just be a CVT. Then again, it might be a slushbox. Depends on the implementation, Hyundai's DCTs have not impressed me very much at all, and I hear the Fiat unit Dodge is using shifts pretty slowly.
You know, there's technology, and there's ideology. It seems like some people see transmissions more as ideology than technology. Or perhaps even theology. :shades:
We should find a good DCT one too, I think there's one in Wikipedia.
True, but resale value is generally lower too, so you forfeit some of the initial cost savings of a manual at trade-in time.
I beg to differ, 3 light years is still 3 years. I know, I exaggerate, but the point is, CVT has never been thought of or invented because of "performance" unless you are just measuring fuel economy.
those set ratios are only in the "manumatic" mode though, right? So odds are, 99% of the owners 99% of the time will live it in auto mode, so in that case, no difference!
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Obviously when using those sorts of things you lose the advantage of keeping the engine at the ideal RPM all of the time, so there is a definite trade-off. On the other hand, Americans tend to be more accepting of automatics than CVTs. And having the engine drone at a constant RPM the whole time might not be the most wonderful thing, especially if the engine doesn't sound very pleasant to begin with. But life is about trade-offs.
Not to get in the middle here, but I beg to differ, 3 light years is a measure of distance, not a measure of time.
I'd stick around for your response, but I only have 30 feet until I have to go to a meeting. I'm hoping it won't last more than a mile, so I'll check in when I get back.
I think Chrysler TRIED to make it mimic a slushbox, but even good slushboxes shift quickly. That one doesn't.
The Ford DCT shifts quickly after the clunk fixes....my problem with that one is that it upshifts automatically in "sport" mode...which is probably why they don't call it "manual" mode.
As long as it shifts at least a good few ticks well into the red line, I don't mind that one bit. I mean, at that point, you have other choices, none of which I find superior to a lighting quick up-shift; those choices being destroying your engine if there's no rev limiter, or bouncing off of the rev limiter over and over.
That's funny, but reminds me of the dumb girlfriend filmed by her boyfriend being unable to answer how many miles they would travel in an hour going 80 miles per hour. Ended up on Youtube.
If she'd of remembered that 80 MPH is both a measure of speed and time, then she'd know the answer was 80 miles.
The H in MPH stand for hours, a measure of time.
Just like 3 light years theoretically is the same as 3 LYY (light years per year).
I don't know if you theoretically skipped out on math classes, astronomy classes or both, but if you keep this up, we may have to put you on YouTube.
A light year is the measurement of DISTANCE light travels in one year at 182,000 miles per second. Roughly 6 trillion miles, if you do the multiplication. There is no "per year" in the DISTANCE term "light years". Ask your high school math or physics teacher, if you don't believe me.
3 light years = 18,000,000,000,000 miles. Period.
"3 light years per year" = is not a term I've every heard, but I guess could be interpreted to mean 3 times the speed of light. Which is impossible. Except in the first .00000000000000000000000000000000001 second following the instant of the Big Bang when the universe went from singularity through hyper inflation. But even then, there was no such thing as light in that instant, and the laws of physics as we've known them in the 14.3 billion years since didn't yet exist.
I do agree that the CVT's I've driven fell sluggish. Nissan especially.
No, it's short of redline. Personally a prefer that it hold at the rev limiter instead of shifting.
7000 rpm on my TL 6-speed
9000 rpm on my old Honda S2000 (it should have had a limiter that didn't allow the engine to drop BELOW 5000 rpm)
Come to find out later that his only previous experience driving a manual transmission was earlier that spring with a diesel truck from his dad's landscaping company. He nearly blew it up by driving it 60 miles along I66 at 75 mph in 2nd gear with a full load of mulch. It didn't have a tachometer, rev limiter, or a good shifter gate and he thought he was in 4th. You would have thought the 120 decibel engine noise would have clued him in, but it wan't until the radiator started smoking that he figured it out.
All manuals should have a tach. Swinging that needle is half the fun!
Not having a tach sounds like Big 3 thinking and cost cutting.
How else (if your deaf) will you know your in the wrong gear. Having said that, I love newer cars that have a digital read out of the gear you are in.
For me anyway, Tacs are a nice option/standard equipment. I really do not look at it very much (in the real world). That is on A/T's and probably more on topic, on M/T's.
Porsche doesn't put the speedometer in the center of the gauge cluster, the tachometer gets top billing wiht the smaller speedometer on the left side. The way it should be.
I watch it in the E55, always amused about how lazy it is at some speeds.
the RDX has so much power, it could rev limit at 3K and still have plenty of performance. and the volvo likely won't be happy up that high.
the integra, that I have to shift higher with the little engine, but with 167K on it, not sure I want to spend a lot of time buzzing it up to 6,700 RPM!
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
get real good shifting by ear, but pretty much all of those sounded like they were going to explode well before they actually were, so short shifting was the rule of thumb.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I remember our 85 Tempo automatic had a tach, seems kind of silly. I want to say the 93 Taurus my mother had didn't have a tach, but prior cars have, including boring 4cyl automatic Camry.
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Was reading today about Nissan's new steer-by-wire, scheduled to go into the next-gen G sedan from what I understand. NO mechanical connection between the steering wheel and the front wheels, unless the computer senses that it has malfunctioned, and then a fail-safe mechanical connection pops in. Now I ask you: if the computer is malfunctioning, how is it going to sense anything? :confuse:
Automatics and electric power steering have already sucked 3/4 of the fun out of driving, now they want to make it even worse. No computers doing the driving for me, it's stick shift or nothing.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Eh? The WRX is stick-only RIGHT NOW. As is the Focus ST, from what I understand. And of course the Civic SI, and a half dozen other models meant to be the most sporty variants in the line-up. There's just so much more involvement with the stick, it seems natural that they would sell the sports models only with the stick.
And then of course, for the people in less of a hurry, there are all the models on the market that are automatic-only.... :shades:
If I want a manual AWD SUV, my only remaining choices now are the Forester (and Outback) or the Porsche Cayenne, isn't that right? At least I still have two choices (assuming I have $60 grand to spend on a vehicle ;-)). Hang in there Porsche, don't drop the ball! The manual is probably doomed in the Subaru before too much longer. And how snobbish of all those other manufacturers to offer their models only with an automatic (at higher cost, naturally)!
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Really real stick-shift don't need a clutch either. Don't get me wrong, there is a third pedal, but it's only necessary to get the vehicle in motion from a dead stop.
For me on the streets, probably.
For the BMW and Porsche drivers I did hot laps with on a track, I think they would disagree. They are shifting at the razor's edge of redline, but before fuel cutoff. Which, if they hit fuel cutoff, would cost them a precious moment or two. i think they would throw out the speedometer, but not the tach.
They also turn off every electronic intervention possible - ABS, stability control, etc. real drivers don't need (or want) any of those.
Exactly....
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I like to have as much info as possible - maybe that comes from experience with older cars, when you're just waiting for something to go awry.
the programming can be quite different in how the ECM stops redline from being exceeded...
maybe do ECMS in automatic transmission vehicles handle redline different than in manual transmission vehicles?
:shades:
When I was learning to drive, it just wasn't seen often, except in them sporty furrin cars... Even once they were more common, we used to laugh when we saw them in automatic equipped models...
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That reminds of the story of how I came to own a 1968 Camaro Z-28. My dad was lending me the money for it, as I had just started on a work-study program. He came from a background driving 18-wheelers and 3-on-the-column manuals and didn't see any need to run the engine at anything over 2000 rpms, unless in third gear on the highway. Also, he saw no need for anything that could go much over 70 mph and took 15 secs to go 0 to 60.
So off we went shopping for cars. I was ready to settle for a 327 Camaro with the 4-speed, but dad asked me what I wanted, so I blurted out "a Z-28" (sort of like Ralphie and the BB gun in A Christmas Story). So we test drove one. The Z-28's 302 engine of that era came with a radical cam profile that was optimized for the 4000 rpm to 6000 rpm range. It really lugged below 3000 rpms. So dad drove the car, using his standard upshift-at-2000 rpms technique, and declared "yeah, this car isn't too bad", meaning it's not too fast.
So we bought it .
No they just need periodic engine rebuilds... :P
Perhaps in the old days, when we were driving huge displacement V8s with pistons the size of trash can lids that could rev to an oxygen-deprived 5200 rpm if they were lucky-----but now, with fast-revving turbo and SC engines, you can hit redline mighty quick. And with interference engines, you can stretch those piston rods just a little itty bit TOO MUCH....
I've been pretty careful not to make a habit of hitting the redline, but with my TL there is a fuel cutoff that feels like the engine is going into a stall (but doesn't). Never found out if 9,200 rpm in the S2000 had the same feeling, I forced myself to give in and shift at 8,900.
As for the X5d, with an automatic transmission, I'm not sure we've gotten it much above 3,500 rpm. There are two shift modes, regular and sport, the latter of which can be shifted manually. But my wife isn't a drag racer around town and on the highway I've found the sport mode to still shift at under 3,500 to 4,000 rpm when I'm pushing it to pass or merge. The 425 ft lbs of torque starting at low rpm's give you more than enough acceleration long before redline.
Pay no attention to the threat that real drivers don't need tachometers. They appear here to stay. The Americans with Disabilities Act has mandated them so as not to discriminate against the deaf (not to mention the dumb).
Problem is, there are some that are lobbying to have ADA extended to include a ban against manual transmissions altogether. Arguing they are blatantly discriminatory against those afflicted with weak joints and chronic excuses. We wouldn't want one segment of the driving population to be able to have more fun than others, now would we? I thought Obama Care would have covered treatment for that affliction under universal coverage, but in spite of great advances in orthopedics, no one has found a cure for the second part.
Tachometers safe? Yes. Manual transmissions? Maybe not.
Yeah, not to mention the people with bad left knees. Or perhaps no left knees. How dare those lazy people exist.
I'd strongly suggest you edit your tone some.