Sports Cars - The Definitive Discussion

starrow68 · January 2006

GrassrootsMotorsports has a good comparison to the new MX5 and the prior base Miata that was set up for the track. As they note, it was a surprise, that the Solstice did as well as it did against the new Miata and was the winner in their comparison. However they said the older Miata was the quickest of the bunch on track with a specific set up.

I think the Elise weight would make it the clear winner also since it is about 10 lbs. /HP which is close to a Corvette vs. the Solstice at 11/12 lbs. That is a huge difference to overcome in performance.
Randy

billymay · January 2006

I agree with the weight comments above, but would add that if you've seen how the Elise is constructed (aluminum chassis) it's hard to compare it to a Solstice or Miata.

Much like with bicycles, weight reduction in cars equates to performance, and it gets expensive. So while GM can use a pretty typical unibody-over-shared-chassis design to keep the bean counters happy, they can't really touch the little Lotus' technical prowess.

The Solstice is a cool little car, but the Elise is more in the low-end exotic category just for its construction. To its credit, the Solstice is also a more "normal" car when it comes to ingress/egress, dealer support, etc.

rapidred · January 2006

Purchased a new Elise in November. Difficult to enter and exit, but once inside it's well worth the money and the effort. Test drove the new Corvette prior to my purchase.
The corvette was much more comfortable, but really did
not enjoy the driving experience as much (perhaps one can really appreciate the power of the Corvette on a racing track). I preferred the feel of the Elise.

starrow68 · January 2006

Interesting comparisons, it's surprising to many how close the Corvette coupe and Elise are on track. The wt/pwr is slight advantage to the Vette and the size/handling is all advantage Elise so they run close, as far as I can tell and then it gets to grip and set up. Track dynamics are next, tight turns and short straights, lots of passing by the Elise, longer straights and fast corners and the Vette shines. I've found several Elise drivers that like dicing with a Vette as much as I like chasing them down. When they run D0T-Rs I have trouble catching some of them. Much more capable than the Boxster S and many of the base 911's.

Sorry I can't join you in enjoying the experience but at 6' 3" the Elise isn't on my list of things to squeeze into.
Randy

barriostkd · January 2006

I'm new to this board so my apologies in advance if this has already been discussed. I usually post on the Subaru boards since I own a WRX and an Outback, but I'm considering a used 2004 Mazdaspeed Miata. I live in the Bay Area and the traffic has been terrible on the Bay Bridge going into SF, so my fiancee and I are considering a 2-seater to be able to use the carpool lane.

Anyway, one concern I have that people have mentioned to me is "cowl shake". I've never owned a convertible so I don't know much about it at all. How pronounced is this w/ the 2004 Miata & how much of a concern is it? A friend of mine who owned a 2001 Miata said this was a real concern for him so he changed his car to an S2000. Is this something that will compromise safety? Any information would be greatly appreciated.

I'm also considering a pre-owned '02 or '03 S2000. How would you guys compare an '02 S2000 to the '04 Mazdaspeed Miata? Performance, reliability, safety, comfort, etc. These are the two cars I'm thinking of purchasing, so please fill me in if you've had experience w/ these two cars. Want to know the pros and cons of each car.

Thanks!

JB

habitat1 · January 2006

I owned a 2002 S2000 for 2.5 years and 19k miles. A good friend owned a late 90's Miata during the same time.

I cannot comment on the 04 Mazdaspeed Miata, but there really was no comparison between my 2002 S2000 and my friend's Miata. The S2000 was much more powerful, had go cart like handling and steering and had a Ferrari like 9,000 rpm redline. Not to mention that it was built as tight as a drum - every bit as tight as our 2005 911 Cab S. Cowl shake was non existent.

The Miata was smaller inside, lighter weight, but far more "flexible" evidenced by cowl shake and rattles. The performance was O.K., but comparatively anemic and "loose" if you just came out of the S2000.

It seems to me unfair to compare the Miata - a low price very nice lightweight fun roadster - to a more serious performance oriented sports car like the S2000. At the time I was shopping the $32k S2000, it beat out the $40k Z3/Z4 3.0 and the $45k base Boxster and SLK 320. You had to go up to the $55k+ Boxster S to match the performance and feel of the S2000.

In 2.5 years and 19,000 miles, I spent a grand total of $300 on maintenance, including 4 Mobil 1 oil changes. The tires were on their last legs, but it never went into the shop once for a repair. It was probably the best built car I have ever owned.

Comfort was fine for me and the Recaro seats in the S2000 fit me like a glove. The interior, although spartan of techno do-dads, was clean and attractive. No low slung roadster will fare well in a collision with an SUV, but the structural integrity of the S2000 is best in class.

Good luck.

xtinctfiero · January 2006

If you have to ask a question, of is the Elise worth the extra money since it is only xxx pounds lighter, well then you should not even be talking about the Elise becuase you certainly are not interested in a performce car. Weight people, there is no substitute. Light weight costs money, fat is cheap, go hit up a McDonalds if that is what you want. There is no comparison to the Elise. I sold my overweight Fiero (which was about to receive a major steriod injection) becuase you cannot match the low weight for initial performance. There are more turbo kits coming on the market every day. At least 3 quality ones for the Elise currently if you want to up the HP even more.

Pontiac Fiero - traded in for the Elise

Lotus Elise

xtinctfiero · January 2006

One other point on the "Is the Elise Worth the extra bucks" topic. You will never get as many heads turning in a vette or solitice....

http://members.cox.net/fiero

http://members.cox.net/fiero/html_pages/lotus.htm

starrow68 · January 2006

"If you have to ask a question, of is the Elise worth the extra money since it is only xxx pounds lighter, well then you should not even be talking about the Elise becuase you certainly are not interested in a performce car."

Well, you have to ask worth it for whom? Surely not anyone 6' and over, and we do drive on track. The Elise is just not an option. Sure it is light and great handling, I was running with several at Laguna yesterday and one was a lot faster than my street tired Vette coupe, I passed several others so it gets back again to set up and driver. As a guy with a lower HP car said today at Thunderhill Raceway after a ride in the Vette, 'If I had the money, I'd have more HP'. It is fun!
Randy

stevekilburn · February 2006

elise is not for everyday. You will have to make appointments with chiropracter every week. Especially if you are over 40, think it through carefully before you go for it

starrow68 · February 2006

Well after a few rides in a Cayman S I'll nominate it for visits to the back specialist as well. I didn't get all the specs but from the stop watch on top of the dash it has the sport chrono option, so a guess would be that it was fully optioned. If it had the well reviewed, by Edmunds, stability control system, that didn't keep the driver on track, which is something my Corvette hasn't done in three years tracking. The kid & I were lucky as he ended up a couple feet from a tire wall, my side, after I had told him to brake harder for a double apex turn for two full sessions and he still over cooked the entry, big time. The passenger seat was one of the most uncomfortable I've been in since the day before when I had several sessions in a early 90's Corvette. Seats that were noted by Edmunds as perfect, seem to not fit everyone.

spiritinthesky · February 2006

My orthopedic surgeon, also an accomplished amateur racer, is picking up a new Ferrari 430 in about 4-6 weeks. But that didn't stop him from test driving a patient's Cayman S two weeks ago and then putting an order in on the spot. Now he really wants to sell me his 2001 Ferrari 360.

I have not driven one yet, as they are all coming in pre-sold, but from sitting in one at my dealership, I don't believe the seats are any different than the ones in the 911 or Boxster. I'm 6', 185 and I fit fine. The "adaptive sport seats" can be tight for those with a little extra in the midsection.

designman · March 2006

Well after a few rides in a Cayman S I'll nominate it for visits to the back specialist as well.

Randy, is there anything you wont say when slamming Porsche? Nice try but youre groping.

I don't believe the seats are any different than the ones in the 911 or Boxster. I'm 6', 185 and I fit fine.

Spirit, we must be identical twins. Youre right, the seats are the same. The Porsche seats are the most back-friendly I have ever driven. I could drive cross country in them. To my chagrin I cant say the same about the seats in my 530, but Porsche seats rarely garner criticism. The only way I see them being a problem is if someone has had one slice too many.

Cayman is coming up aces. But Im curious to see how it makes it through the summer with testimonials on cabin heat. The Boxster trunk gets mighty toasty now its up close and personal with the driver. This could become very apparent especially when combined with the greenhouse.

starrow68 · March 2006

Sorry you feel I'm picking on Porsche, many good things about them on track even if I feel they are over priced for performance. As to the seat, maybe I don't know how to adjust it, got it tilted but I got no lumbar support and felt the seat was 'slab backed' at least from my POV. I did a couple 25 minute sessions in the car and it did handle well, just wish the driver was a quicker study. As to the slice too many comments, I'm a leading edge baby boomer, very leading edge, which doesn't make me too spry but I've maintained 6'3" and 195# for about the last 15 years which seems to be good enough to play in 3 recreational volleyball leagues each week. I'm no longer an upper B level player but good enough that we win the leagues once in awhile, still, got the T-Shirts.
Enjoy Porsche, I'll still keep noting what I find as I get rides in anything new. BTW I felt good about the head room with helmet on so it has a few positives to go with the handling.

Randy

perunest · March 2006

I read the other reply to your question and my opinion is different from that of the Honda S2000 owner. I've owned two Miatas. One was an original 1990 (1600cc engine)and the other was a 2001 (1800cc engine) special edition. I autocrossed both these cars. The Miata is an awesome handing car, with 11 straight national championships in autocross. You will find little evidence of cowl shake, which is present in all cars to some extent. While the zero to 60 times doesn't make it a drag racer, you will find the acceleration satisfying. The S2000 is also a great car that has been successful at the national level in autocross.
Here's the subjective part. When I was shopping for a roadster in 2002 I test drove several S2000s. In order to get the extra power over the Miata, I had to keep the revs very high, which was not an acceptable solution (for me). If you don't drive the S2000 with the engine buzzing at 6000 plus rpm, you won't feel any real power. You won't want to pass over the Bay Bridge that way with your wife. Additionally, The car was less than comfortable and my wife, who usually accepts whatever car I want, was very unhappy with the seating position. She asked that we not buy it. A week later we test drove a BMW Z3 3.0i and it had much more low end torque that the S2000. My wife, uncharacteristically, asked me to buy the Z3.
I still think the S2000 is a very good car. Both it and the Miata have excellent reliability ratings. I drove both my Miatas very hard and had no problems. Drive a couple of these cars and buy what appeals to you personally. You can't go wrong either way. If you want to experience real cowl shake in a convertible, try the Toyota Solara - that's cowl shake you can really feel.
I'm shopping for another car now and the Porsche 911 is at the top of my list. Good luck!

ateixeira · March 2006

For it to handle like a Solistice you would have to add six 150 lb passengers to it somehow.

FWIW, rattles are not common on Miatas, CR's car issue just came out and it said that 95% of owners of '04 Miatas had no complaints whatsoever.

-juice

cluedweasel · April 2006

Front, middle or back? My preference is for mid-engined. The balance just feels better. I'd like to know what other folks think.

andys120 · April 2006

It doesn't matter as long as the car's weight balance is either neutral (50F/50R) or balanced towards the rear so you can steer with the throttle.

Since all modern race cars have their motors amidships you could say that the mid-engined location is ideal for sports cars but that ignores practical considerations as well as the fact that street driving is not the same as
race driving.

starrow68 · April 2006

Well said, and as noted somewhere up above in this thread, mid-engined has not been something that lends itself to mass production, it seems. Therefore, most experience in the real world is with front or rear engine options. We all seem to agree that the rear engine works very well if you have lots of experience, while the front engine can be balanced to 50/50 and is more bulletproof for the inexperienced driver. No matter your choice, most seem to agree, more power is better!
Randy

BTW, Friday at Thunderhill with at least 5 Vettes, one a C6 Z06. Very much a test of sports cars having fun!

ateixeira · April 2006

All other things being equal, I'd say Mid, but all other things are never equal.

Example: the Miata has a front engine, while the Toyota MR-S is mid. In autocross, where handling is key, the Miata has basically owned the MR-S.

The Toyota also cost more and was a lot less practical, which is why it failed in the market place and was discontinued.

However, my buddy's Boxster kicks asphalt. :shades:

-juice

starrow68 · April 2006

Well for those that believe that Ferrari has the solution the front seems to be back, "In".

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/AutoshowArticles/articleId=109497

andys120 · April 2006

Well for those that believe that Ferrari has the solution the front seems to be back, "In".

While Ferrari's newest model has the motor up front (599GTB) the fastest and best handling Ferrari's wear the motors behind the driver(Enzo/FXX/F430).

ultimatedriver · April 2006

As far as engine placement in a race car is concerned, rear-mid engine placement is a no brainer. If it's a car that is going to be used for pure driving pleasure and race car-like dynamics, the rear-mid engine is the way to go, a la Lotus Exige, Ferrari F430, Porsche Cayman, etc.

However, with the exception of Porsche's offerings, a lot of the sports cars out there aren't practical as daily drivers because of their racy orientation.

To that end, I say rear engined is the way to go. As long as you don't mind walking to the front to store things, every Porsche I've gotten behind the wheel of (with the exception of the standard C2 996) has been a joy on the road. The steering is spot on because the front wheels are completely dedicated to steering the car and nothing else.

That leaves the rear end to carry the weight of the engine over the drive wheels. This lends the car dynamic weight distribution under acceleration and braking that other manufacturers can only dream about.

Because the physics of the vehicle perform so well in their own right, the car doesn't need as much horsepower to accelerate at the same pace as it's competition. Under braking everything goes to nearly 50:50, which is why there isn't as big a difference in the front and rear brake specifications in comparison to other cars.

Porsches have always been engineered to be very light weight sports cars, so they make due with medium displacement, highly tuned six cylinder engines with very good fuel economy considering the velocities the car is capable of.

I'm a big fan of the 993 (I just crashed my Turbo in Germany), however I'm aware of the cornering limitations if the rear chassis can't be tamed. This makes me a huge fan of the new 997.

Not that I don't have a blast in other cars, but the 997 is too brilliant to ignore.

ateixeira · May 2006

But then why didn't Porsche use that layout for the Carerra GT?

You want the weight in the middle, not behind the rear axle, so that you can change directions quickly and not have the tail wag the dog in extreme circumstances, racing being a good example of that.

-juice

ultimatedriver · May 2006

The reason is because Porsche never planned for the Carrera GT to be a mid-engined sports car. That was supposed to be a Le Mans racer, hence the ideal layout.

For a modern sports car though, it's gotta be a little user friendly to make it in today's competitive market. Besides, with the advent of stability control systems, a rear engine layout isn't as hard to drive as it used to be.

andys120 · May 2006

I assume you guys are referring to the Cayman S which is mid-engined and not to the "Carrera GT" which like all 911 variants has the motor behind the rear axle.

designman · May 2006

Perhaps you are thinking of the GT3 or GT2. The Carrera GT is indeed mid-engine.

andys120 · May 2006

Doh!

You are right, my bad the Carrera GT is indeed mid-engined and as the man said, based on the LMP-1 prototype.

It's Porsche's fault for having so many similar names. :mad:

habitat1 · May 2006

It's Porsche's fault for having so many similar names.

I agree. It took me 6 months of being a pain in the [non-permissible content removed] before GEICO sent me an insurance renewal adjustment that finally correctly reflected my car. For the first 6 months, they claimed the VIN on my 2005 911S Cab was showing up in their system as a "Carrera S/GT". A non-S 911 was simply "911 Carrera". For the first 6 months of ownership I was paying over 2 times what a 911 non-S model would have run ($1,240 vs. $610). And the same as what Jay Leno pays for his Carrera GT.

After my last heated conversation, I got a renewal notice that puts the 6-month premium of my 2005 911S at $16 less than my 2004 Acura TL 6 speed and well less than my former S2000. I think I'll keep my mouth shut on that one.

starrow68 · May 2006

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060516/AUTO02/605160301/1148-

When is it beyond the average driver?

designman · May 2006

It will be interesting to see if that CGT case will set any precedent and who will be faulted if anyone. It is also curious that Porsche had planned to produce 1500 CGTs but halted production in May after making only 1271 with less-than-desirable demand being cited as a reason.

The driver of that CGT was an avid and popular poster at a Porsche-enthusiast website. It will also be interesting to see if and how his activity there will figure into the lawsuit, whether it will be used by defense or plaintiff in the case. In any event, the case will be closely watched.

When is it beyond an average driver? Good question. Id like to know who is qualified to take a Veyron up to 250. Should Piech be worried?

ateixeira · May 2006

Check out Straighline Blogs, I think both events were covered.

-juice

habitat1 · May 2006

Off topic, but having seen pictures of both cars, it looked to me like the damage to the Porsche was not nearly as severe as to the Enzo, yet two killed in the GT and a bloody nose in the Enzo. Anybody else get that impression?

ateixeira · May 2006

At those extreme forces, a lot of it has to do with dumb luck. The Enzo broke in half but it looks like it was hit behind the passenger cabin, which was relatively intact.

-juice

ultimatedriver · June 2006

Hooray for BMW! Making a sports car for people who love sports cars. I can't wait to get my hands on an M Coupe and a Cayman back to back.

Finally more German car companies are joining in the fun of manufacturing quasi purpose-built vehicles. Of course, there will always be amenities to be had in the interest of staying competitive. However it's great to see lighter weight, four and six cylinder sports cars.

ultimatedriver · June 2006

This is a weird one. I can think of a handful of cars for less money that would have given this idiot less trouble and more fun than a CLK-GTR.

As an engineer and automotive technical advisor, I've always suggested against importing these homoligation specials for a few reasons. The biggest reason is that you're buying a RACE CAR, not a road car. Race cars only need to be as reliable as the race season is long.

If it's a factory effort (which it was), then every system of that vehicle has the shelf life of a room temperature carton of milk. The reason for this is because if a problem occurs within the vehicle during the race, there is a team of super smart engineers to fix it as soon as it goes wrong. That car will remain a carbon-fibre/kevlar paperweight until someone realizes that all the diagnostic equipment is locked away with AMGs discontinued race effort.

Sour Benzo: Car Dealer Demands $2 Million for Defective Supercar

spiritinthesky · June 2006

Hold your "hoorays" until actually drive the car.

BMW's previous attempts at true sports cars have been very weak, IMO. The former M coupe was a loser out of the box. The Z3/Z4 have an extra 500 lbs and have a fraction of the visceral feel of a $30k Honda S2000, let alone a Cayman or Boxster.

I say this as a pretty seious BMW loyalist. I currently drive a 2003 M5 and was one of under 500 original owners of a 1979 M1. Unfortunately, I do not think BMW has made anything since that could be considered an advancement in terms of true "sportscariness". I gave the Z8 some consideration, but a single test drive - at BMW's own track, no less - convinced me that it was a $120k+ wannabe compared to similar priced offerings from Ferrari and Porsche.

I will defend to near death BMW's superiority in sports sedans. The M3 and M5 reign as kings in their respective fields. And no 1,000 hp overweight AMG or Audi offering is going to change that. But I think for a real sports car, BMW needs to abandon engine sharing and do what Honda did - hand a bunch of engineers a completely clean slate.

P.S. On your CLK-GTR comments, I fully agree. Why anyone would buy one of those over a proven, superior $450k Carerra GT or even a $200k production Ferrari 430 is beyond me. Just because they only produced 5 doesn't automatically make it a good car.

carlisimo · June 2006

There's also the irony that McLaren-Mercedes would've been likely to win last year's F1 championship if Raikkonen's car had been reliable enough to finish its races.

On the other hand, there are other homologated cars that haven't been lemons, like the STi and Evo (homologated from Group N rallying, not full-blown WRC).

As for why anyone would buy a CLK-GTR, I don't think that's the sort of purchase you can apply logic to. It's not like they're daily drivers. Lots of people are Mercedes fans and lots of rich people have had their cars for a long time. They find themselves in a position to buy a supercar... why not buy the pinnacle of their brand? The SLR wasn't out yet and even after it was, the CLK-GTR was more expensive, exclusive, and hardcore.

Speaking of the STi and Evo, I'm thinking that the only reason I don't call them sports cars is because they don't look like sports cars. So I wonder if a Mitsubishi 3000GT would be called a sports car just on looks (it was FWD with optional AWD). Any 6-year old would call it a sports car, and we're not far removed from them. Or not me, anyway...

Kirstie_H · June 2006

A national newspaper is looking to interview Porsche owners who would like to talk about their satisfaction with the brand. Please send an e-mail to ctalati@edmunds.com no later than Tuesday June 20, 2006 by 2:00 PM PST/5:00 EST containing your daytime contact information with the make and model Porsche you own.

Thanks,
Chintan Talati
Corporate Communications
Edmunds.com

ultimatedriver · June 2006

Spirit, I'll have to agree with you on the fact that BMW has been handed its fair share of leftovers when it comes to building sports cars. However, this batch of leftovers still make for an appealing entree as all of the core components are present for the makings of a really good little sports car.

I too would love to see BMW finally throw down and do an awesome sports/super car from scratch (with a spiritual descendant of the Gen III M70B60-read McLaren F1). However we can only wait with crossed fingers as we look forward to the management spending more time with the drivetrain/chassis engineers, instead of the design team.

Carlisimo, the STI and Evo aren't homoligation specials in the same sense as the CLK-GTR. The Benz was designed for racing and softened for the street. The turbo twins followed the opposite route being designed for the street, and hardened for racing duty.

Also, I'd say that the 3000GT fits the bill of sports car by design intention only. The design may not have been very good, but the intention was there. Fortunately those inherent problems can be remedied, or at least better ignored, thanks to the aftermarket. Enjoy.

frankzappa22 · June 2006

Is it just me, or does anyone else scratch their head over the striking similarities of the Ferrari 599 and the C6 Corvette? I know that they are not totally identical, but they seem very close.
Reminds me of the Ferrari Daytona that tons of people mistake for a '68-'69ish Corvette. Not to mention the Ferrari is using Corvettes Magnetic Ride Control technology to make it handle like a...Ferrari?
Do you think that Ferrari is getting ready to throw something at the Corvette LeMans team in the next few years. Wouldn't surprise me one bit.
I also find it funny that the Corvette has very Ferrari looking headlights (like the F430) and the Ferrari 599 has more plain looking headlights that could have come from a Corvette or something similar. Man, the globalization is making things wierd.

andys120 · June 2006

Back in the day lots of people sneered at the 365GTB/4, referring to it as the "Italian Corvette".

The Daytona with it's clean lines and sharp edges was a real departure from the classic PF Ferrari look but it's stood up over time a lot better than the '68 Corvette.

The 599 is a sharp departure too with it's narrow headlights and wraparound rear glass but I like it in a way I could never like the plainly derivative C6.

Corvette needs a new styling Mojo to go with the fabulous performance IMO.

xkss · July 2006

Pedro Lamy won the GT1 class of the American Le Mans Series race at Lime Rock Park by 0.033 seconds in his # 009 DBR9 over Johnny O'Connell in his # 3 Corvette C6-R.

The Corvette C6-Rs were carrying 199 more pounds than the Aston Martins, running smaller intake restrictors, and using smaller fuel tanks as a result of "balance of performance" adjustments mandated by the sanctioning body.

GT1 report

xkss · July 2006

<img src=http://www.astonmartinracing.com/content/allsites/images/Finish_01_0e4ffde5-e8b0-4e46-bd84-1942b88d5c38.jpg

starrow68 · August 2006

http://www.cnn.com/2006/AUTOS/08/30/cr_supercars/

Sports Car comparison, FWIW. Not sure I'd expect the 505hp
Z06 to be only say 1 or 2 tenths faster 0 -60 than a 355hp
911.
Randy

ateixeira · September 2006

I read CR, don't get me wrong, but relying on them to evaluate supercars would be like Good Housekeeping ranking Heavy Metal bands.

-juice

kyfdx · September 2006

Well... one thing you get from them is the unvarnished truth... They aren't swayed by price tags or hood ornaments or "heritage"..

So, if the $80K car drives like crap and is all image, at least they'll tell you about it, and not try to gloss it over... That is more than can be said for the enthusiast car magazines..

ateixeira · September 2006

True, but things like a racing heritage will matter to the enthusiasts that buy them.

Not to mention, I doubt that same buyer will care much about cup holder placement.

-juice

kyfdx · September 2006

Enthusiasts probably make up a very small percentage of buyers of any make.. even Porsche..

Cupholders: My wife can't be away from a bottle of water for more than 20 minutes without having a major hissy fit... Even enthusiasts get thirsty..

ateixeira · September 2006

The cup holder on my Miata broke, and I never replaced it. My wife complains, though.

-juice

Sports Cars - The Definitive Discussion

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