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Sports Cars - The Definitive Discussion

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  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    You should check out NASA and other car clubs that offer HPDEs which are High Performance Driving Events. You get both track time with an instructor as well as classroom time, which will give you some very very valuable skills for both on track and on-road driving. Well worth the ~$150-200 for the day to be able to open up your car w/o worrying about cops etc. The skills you learn will also improve your on-road safety. I know that after having done HPDEs I was a far more alert and safe driver on the road. Now I instruct students on track and it's great to see them have a blast and really learn how to drive the machines they spent so much hard earned money on.

    -mike
  • chrmdomechrmdome Posts: 107
    Mike:

    Thank you sir, you know, I might just do that . I have been fishing and golfing for the last 10 years and have been thinking about another "fun " thing. I might just do that, thanks

    Chromedome
  • starrow68starrow68 Posts: 1,142
    chrmdome: "You will never go past 100mph in your Corvette nor I in my Porsche."

    As Mike noted, it is easy to get on track. I also instruct for several groups and
    have been on 4 tracks here in CA and two just across the border in NV. At the
    SCCA Buttonwillow track when we do configuration 25 CCW, even my stock LS1
    coupe gets just past 135mph. That's the fastest course I have driven, but at Sears
    Point I get between 100 and 110 at four places each lap which requires a great
    amount of continued concentration to keep up the pace for 20 minutes or so. It
    has helped my street driving since I am much more aware of what is going on
    around me and less worried about what I'm doing in my own car. I know what gear
    I'm in and which I would select if I needed to down shift at any given speed.
    Laguna Seca has two groups out this week and Thursday / Friday is sold out but
    always fun to watch.
    Randy

    BTW, I agree that comparing 355hp 911's to 500hp Vettes isn't to meaningful, but
    since I have a 350hp C5 coupe and get on track with 911's all the time, the chance
    to pass something that cost 50% more is worth a smile or two. :)
  • starrow68starrow68 Posts: 1,142
    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FullTests/articleId=123805

    Interesting take on the latest offering. I'm not sure I would encourage the idea of
    even a slight drift on freeway onramps and even the best stability control will some
    times lose it. Take it to the track if you want to find limits.

    As for comparisons, Edmunds provides the link to the Carrera S from the spec page
    for the 2008 Vette. $56k vs. $86k as tested and since everyone scoffs at 0-60
    times, lets ignore that. There is always the skid pad .95 vs. .92 with the Vette on
    GY EMT's and the the Porsche is on Michelin PS II's. How does that leaf spring
    pull that off when they have about the same curb weight according to the specs?
    Did I say 50% more, earlier? Guess I was being nice.
    Randy
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Even though it uses leaf springs, the rear suspension is still indy.

    I've heard that be debated a dozen times.
  • pmc4pmc4 Posts: 198
    Gentlemen, to get an idea of chrmdome's thinking about his Porsche, just go to the Porsche 911 forum and click on my (read only), "The Ignition is on the Left" post. Entertainment in the extreme.

    Anyway. Chromedome is unaware of Corvette's chassis architecture: The Corvette is a mid-engine sportscar; not a front-engine car (Technically, the Corvette is a "Mid/front engine" car, since the engine is located front of the driver, but behind the front axle, thus a mid-engine car. In like manner, something like the Porsche Cayman or Acura NSX is also a mid engine car but a mid/rear engine car, since the engine is located behind the driver, but before the rear axle; thus, a mid-engine car)

    Also, garden variety Porsche models tend to have steel frames, iron engine components like iron connecting rods, lots of interior plastics and heavy, steel components used genorously elsewhere.
    OTOH, the Corvette Z06 model tends to have carbon fiber chassis componentry, titanium engine components, hydroformed aluminum frames and composite suspension components. That's why the car has the world's most powerful natually-aspirated engine and the car weighs just 50 pounds more than a Honda S2000 (3,000 lbs versus 2,950 lbs) and wins comparison test after comparison test (Ferrari didn't even agree to enter their F430 in Road and Track's comparison test unless it was compared against the base $45,000 corvette and not the $70,000 Z06 and even then the Vette came in 2nd-place out of 5 cars) not to mention winning endurance race after endurance race.

    And since the Porsche models are made out of iron and steel whereas the Corvette is carbon fiber and titanium, the Porsche is the muscle car here, while the Corvette is the envy of the automotive world.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    "the Corvette is the envy of the automotive world."

    Only when Porsche and Ferrari develop their own cheap plastic interiors, notchy shifters, numb steering, and leaf-spring suspensions can they cease envying the exalted Chevrolet.
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    Dec 06, 2007 12:45 am)

    "the Corvette is the envy of the automotive world."

    Only when Porsche and Ferrari develop their own cheap plastic interiors, notchy shifters, numb steering, and leaf-spring suspensions can they cease envying the exalted Chevrolet.


    Well put. To each his own though. Sometimes people are ledgends in their own mind ;) This debate is not likely to get solved here or anywhere. Some people like the vette, some don't. Then again I get into debates on a few hi-performance boat boards that I'm on about how buying a non-american truck is anti-american, when in fact a lot of "american" trucks are made in Canada and Mexico, whereas a lot of the "japanese" trucks are made in the US.

    -mike
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    True.

    For the record, I like the Corvette a lot. I just believe that you get what you pay for, and there's a reason why the Vette "only" costs $45,000.
  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 16,748
    for as long as there have been Corvettes so it is not likely to be resolved any time soon. I must've spent half my college years ('61-'65) arguing the merits of Big Healeys and Jags vs.'Vettes (back then Porsches were just oddball little cars with the motor in the wrong end.).

    I like Corvettes and admire their current commitment to balance and lightness but I think I'm too Euro-oriented to ever buy one but that could change if the ever get the fuel consumption down to a reasonable level for a world of $3.00+ gasoline.

    2000 BMW 528i, 2001 BMW 330CiC

  • starrow68starrow68 Posts: 1,142
    pmc4: " ... while the Corvette is the envy of the automotive world. "

    And I thought I was pro Vette. However, I'm pretty sure the C6Z is closer to 3130#
    than 3000 if memory serves. I wish that Grassrootsmotorsports had posted the
    results of the Ultimate Trackcar Challenge for reference, they are in the Nov. issue.
    A non-professional who built his car with his dad brought a C5Z into 2nd place
    overall and 1st for class beating several exotics with pro drivers who were in the
    upper class. There weren't too many Porsches to be seen but the 924S did win
    it's class for smaller engines and non-racing tires. Tommy Archer in his Euro-spec
    Viper Comp Coupe did 1:28.4 on the VIR 2.2m north course while the Vette did
    1:31.1 and the next fastest of the pro shop entries came in at 1:33.8. Quite a
    spread. The 911 entry that was on the invite list seems to have been a no show.
    Randy
  • starrow68starrow68 Posts: 1,142
    andys120: " ... but that could change if the ever get the fuel consumption down to a reasonable level ... "

    I guess you would have to define reasonable, but right now my daily driver shows
    about 23mpg and that is lots of mile to 4 mile freeway jaunts which are more
    acceleration than cruising. When I go to the track, 100+ miles I usually get 27mpg
    if I keep it around the speed limit. I did have one trip last year in some rain, good to
    keep 275 front tires pretty slow in the puddles and came in with just above 30 mpg
    for the trip. A 6sp with .5/1 top gear in a C5 will be doing less than 1500 rpm at
    65mph.
    Randy
  • chrmdomechrmdome Posts: 107
    Greetings:

    Build quality and material quality/ fit/finish aside ( to me it's far worth the money ), it is interesting, relative to your explanation of the archaic frame/iron engine componets that the Porsche 997 uses etc. , that the Porsche engineers are able to keep the comparitive 0-60 times, braking etc, etc, so close , sometimes beating , sometimes not, that of the Corvette. Like I said in a past post, it would be really interesting to see the Corvette on a dirt rally tract in the Black Forest in Germany spiting a lot of mud but with no forward movement, or at a Targa Florio type road race....few " straight lines " The Porsche was built for different reasons for different seasons and with different engineering. How a 355 hp machine , rear engined , auto can post such comparitive times/statistics with that of a same weight if not lighter 500 hp auto is quite compelling on the engineering side of things. It cost more because of the materials, research , high cost of build and the Euro/Dollar values...and the overseas transport.The American mags seem to just love fueling this debate.... Chevy seems to be a heavy advertiser in " Road and Track " No Duh! One other thing I have noticed, it just seems, that the Corvette guys are always bringing up the comparisons. I don't go on the Corvette forums and post my feelings about Porsche.....I really don't care. Enjoy your car, I'll enjoy mime...by the way Porsche AG is the number "1" most profitable, successful auto maker EVER. GM has lost more money over the last 10 years than you could stuff in the superdome.....wonder why??

    Chromedome
  • chrmdomechrmdome Posts: 107
    Yo:

    Yes , and by the way the " little black car " in the picture posted is an early VW...we all know the success story behind that company. Porsche AG , also by the way, is a major shareholder in Volkswagen...WHY????? Because Porsche AG has been so successful, knowing a good investment when they see one. No one in their right mind would look at Hitler as something positive , I see no humor there!... the example was used to show the heritage and history behind the Porsche company. That aside, the racing victories stand alone as testament to the engineering and world wide appeal of Porsche that many have labeled (the 911-997) as the worlds' premier sportscar, US magazines among them. And the debate drags on, except there are very few people who own Porsches posting on the Corvette forums.....everyone is always comparing their cars to Porsche. Obviously Porsche is the standard to which many others must compare. Nuff said!

    Chromedome
  • starrow68starrow68 Posts: 1,142
    chrmdome: " ... How a 355 hp machine , rear engined , auto can post such comparitive times/statistics with that of a same weight if not lighter 500 hp auto is quite compelling on the engineering side of things. ... "

    I think you missed a few beats. The comparisons were to the standard Vette, not
    the Z06. You really should get out to a track some time and see what going around
    a road course is all about, if you have a performance car, that is!

    Randy
  • chrmdomechrmdome Posts: 107
    Sirs:

    Yes, you must be right.... " if you have a perfromance car that is". My 2006 997 C2S isn't a performance car? Some reports list 0-60mph times at 3.9 sec., much less all the world class braking, turning etc issues. Why is it that the Corvette guys are always looking to knock Porsche, everyone is always trying to compare the two? As a Porsche owner I have never looked for a comparison to the Corvette. When I got in my brothers 2006 Corvette the day he bought the car , things didn't fit correctly, the interior was plain... the fit and finish was not " world class " My 2006 C2S didn't have a stitch out of place. A car is more than an insturment to get from point a to point b fast. I have never looked at my C2S as transportation... I don't drive it to work.... I drive it to drive it .. as it has pleased myself and many other Porsche owners very well. Enjoy your Vette and quit looking for a comparison to Porsche to make you feel better. As the saying goes " There is no comparison " Porsche and I know that. The horse is dead so no sense beating it. I'm done... the point is I really don't care what the Corvette guys think.. please just enjoy your car as much as I do mine.
    Chromedome
  • chrmdomechrmdome Posts: 107
    Greetings:

    And while we are on this subject , I invite all the 2007 Corvette owners to go to:
    www.corvetteactioncenter.com and check out all the service bulletins. We are not talking Cds caught in the changer here. Enjoy and go ahead...compare yourself to Porsche as much as you'd like. Since 2004 the 997 has had basically zero problems. Since cars are man made... there will always be issues but as far as cars go ....the 997 is virtually error free. You Corvette guys are too much!

    Chromedome

    Chromedome
  • pmc4pmc4 Posts: 198
    I like Corvettes and admire their current commitment to balance and lightness but I think I'm too Euro-oriented to ever buy one but that could change if the ever get the fuel consumption down to a reasonable level for a world of $3.00+ gasoline.

    This is the great crime with clever advertising agencies: They easily decieve people who are too unwilling to do any research.

    Truth be told, gentlemen, the Corvette gets roughly the same gas mileage as the far weaker, smaller Honda S2000 convertible (16/24 versus 15/26 with 240 hp/160 ft/lbs versus 430 hp and 400 ft/lbs). Furthermore the story is the same with the Porsche Boxster: far weaker than the Vette, yet similar MPG figures.
    It gets worse with Italians, of course, where they get like 10 mpg.

    As much as the America haters would like to turn away from the truth, GM is currently on the forefront of asserting its technological leadership in environmentaly-friendly vehicles (Tahoe hybrid, Escalade hybrid, Saturn hybrid and the inevitable Chevrolet Volt). I know those of you who hate things that are from America or have an American-branded theme (GE, GM, Boeing) will NOT DO ANY RESEARCH into these hybrids GM is making. To do so means finding out that an American company is going to win the enviroment wars.
    And unlike Toyota which is still stuck with First-Generation hybrid technology and will for some time to come, GM is willing to share its technology with other automakers at a reasonable price like BMW and Mercedes Benz (the Ford Escape hybrid doesn't count, since Toyota overcharged the technology to begin with, ensuring Toyota would be the only company with Synergy Drive).
  • pmc4pmc4 Posts: 198
    "And I thought I was pro Vette. However, I'm pretty sure the C6Z is closer to 3130#
    than 3000 if memory serves. I wish that Grassrootsmotorsports had posted the
    results of the Ultimate Trackcar Challenge for reference, they are in the Nov. issue.
    A non-professional who built his car with his dad brought a C5Z into 2nd place
    overall and 1st for class beating several exotics with pro drivers who were in the
    upper class. There weren't too many Porsches to be seen but the 924S did win
    it's class for smaller engines and non-racing tires. Tommy Archer in his Euro-spec
    Viper Comp Coupe did 1:28.4 on the VIR 2.2m north course while the Vette did
    1:31.1 and the next fastest of the pro shop entries came in at 1:33.8. Quite a
    spread. The 911 entry that was on the invite list seems to have been a no show.
    Randy"


    The guy who posted this is your typical automotive enthusiast: Thorough knowledge of motorsports, an obvoius and passionate racing hobby and a penchant for racing Corvettes...
  • pmc4pmc4 Posts: 198
    Greetings:

    Build quality and material quality/ fit/finish aside ( to me it's far worth the money ), it is interesting, relative to your explanation of the archaic frame/iron engine componets that the Porsche 997 uses etc. , that the Porsche engineers are able to keep the comparitive 0-60 times, braking etc, etc, so close , sometimes beating , sometimes not, that of the Corvette. Like I said in a past post, it would be really interesting to see the Corvette on a dirt rally tract in the Black Forest in Germany spiting a lot of mud but with no forward movement, or at a Targa Florio type road race....few " straight lines " The Porsche was built for different reasons for different


    Dude. You keep bring up riding a Corvette in the Black Forest or something when Car and Driver magazine just got done running a Vette entirely thru the State of Alaska thru mud, water, gunk, bumps and boulders, and the car returned without a single problem.

    ...Which is a suprise considering the car is made entirely of exotic materials and Porsche models seem to made of "durable" materials like iron and steel.
  • pmc4pmc4 Posts: 198
    Replying to: pmc4 (Dec 05, 2007 9:45 pm)

    Yo:

    Yes , and by the way the " little black car " in the picture posted is an early VW...we all know the success story behind that company. Porsche AG , also by the way, is a major shareholder in Volkswagen...WHY????? Because Porsche AG has been so successful, knowing a good investment when they see one. No one in their right mind would look at Hitler as something positive , I see no humor there!... the example was used to show the heritage and history behind the Porsche company. That aside, the racing victories stand alone as testament to the engineering and world wide appeal of Porsche that many have labeled (the 911-997) as the worlds' premier sportscar, US magazines among them. And the debate drags on, except there are very few people who own Porsches posting on the Corvette forums.....everyone is always comparing their cars to Porsche. Obviously Porsche is the standard to which many others must compare. Nuff said!


    Lol, chromedome please realise that Porsche almost went BK early 1990's because of masterpieces like the 924 that shared it's 100 hp engine with the AMC Gremlin (Google if you don't believe), or the 944 that belted out an astounding 140 hp engine and ripped thru the 1/4-mi at 16 seconds at like 60 MPH.

    Econoboxes from Honda were running the quarter mile faster for crying out loud!...

    The 928 (the only Porsche I like except the GT3) was like 90% Volkswagon.

    As far as racing heritage, where is it? I mean, you can say that the Chicago Cubs have a baseball heritage but they never won the World Series. In like manner, Porsche has yet to consistiently beat Corvette at LeMans, even though the Vette is in the GTS class and the Porsche is in the GT class.

    If you give a monkey a computer and extend his life by about 1 million years, by all probabilities, he will likely type out a Shakespareian play within that time.
    If you give some guy an underpowered, underachieving "race" car and have him race it at LeMans for about 80 years, by probabilities, he'll probably win once or twice...
  • chrmdomechrmdome Posts: 107
    Sir:

    As presented, you rebut your own statement. Finally!.... Corvette has done something that Porsche has been doing for YEARS....taking the vehicle off road. Isn't it totally fantastic that Porsche can do with archaic materials such as iron and steel what it takes Corvette to do with fiberglass ( ya, an exotic material there... 60's technology like surfboards. ) I saw not exotic material inside my brothers Vette! Now carbon fiber could be called exotic..Did they take this little trek with a Porsche.. maybe next year. Anyways , I call you "Sir", you call me "Dude" An obvious illustration of one who drives a Corvette and one who drives a Porsche.Old porn star vs. business man. You still don't get it.. I don't care

    Chromedome
  • pmc4pmc4 Posts: 198
    chromedome statistics:

    15 posts regarding Porsche interior plastics.
    9 posts about interior panel fit and finish/
    8 posts about Porsche reliability.
    2 vaguely worded posts about Porsche's handling charasteristics.
    3 posts regarding the stitching of the leather in Porsche cars.

    Only ONE post about Porsche acceleration times, braking times, use of exotic, lightweight componentry, tuning of the drivetrain and power to weight ratio/

    ZERO posts about Porsche top speed. ZERO posts about Porsche fuel efficiency. ZERO posts about Porsche actually winning a comparison test against the Vette, except in the Porsche 911thread.

    Pathetic... Just pathetic...
  • chrmdomechrmdome Posts: 107
    Sir:

    And quite astonishing, not only can a Corvette owner read.. he can count!...Well ..I WAS wrong.. not a single word about Porsche interior plastics... I have a full leather interior... thank you and... it's not the vinyl quality leather found in Corvette. 997 C2S: 184mph top... and where does that get us... in the slammer.....real world issues ....NOT! All the mags go back and forth between awarding Corvette or Porsche 1st or 2nd. The issue is... I don't care about Corevette .,.. why do you Corvette guys care so much about Porsche? Blah, Blah Blah.. now go grab your bleached blond girl friend and take a spin... because that is the perception of Corvette..9 inch pink nails an a pack of Camels. Enjoy

    Chromedome
  • chrmdomechrmdome Posts: 107
    Sir:

    Just so that I understand... is laying down fiberglass " Eco Friendly"? I've been surfing all my life and resin is certainly not " Eco Friendly ", nor is fiberglass. American haters? I own a 2002 Chevy Tahoe and a 2007 Chevy Silverado. You have gone off issue...it's Corevette vs Porsche and,...by the way ..why are you over here on the Porsche forum ? Finally WE DON'T CARE!

    Chromedome
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Let's drop the personal comments, please. BTW, there's no need to engage in an argument if you feel the conversation isn't making sense. Not responding is the best way to get the discussion to go away. ;)
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    "GM is currently on the forefront of asserting its technological leadership in environmentaly-friendly vehicles (Tahoe hybrid, Escalade hybrid, Saturn hybrid and the inevitable Chevrolet Volt)...unlike Toyota which is still stuck with First-Generation hybrid technology and will for some time to come"

    The brand new Chevrolet Malibu Hybrid gets 2 extra MPG (city) over the standard 4 cylinder Malibu and adds ZERO horsepower.

    The Toyota Camry Hybrid gets 12 extra MPG (city) over the standard 4 cylinder Camry and adds 29 horsepower.
  • chrmdomechrmdome Posts: 107
    Greetings.

    I have a general question for all the Corvette owners who come on this forum. The easiest way to get someone PO'ed is to critique a man's dog car or wife. This being so, why do Corvette guys come on this form and critique Porsche? I would really doubt , knowing the Porsche crowd, that we would go to your forum and put down Corvette. They are different cars. I'm comfortable owning my 2006 C2S. It's a world class car in most everyones opinion..and I'm not of the nature to put down what you own...what gives? Let's bypass the BS reasons and give me one good reason why this is being done. If you put down my Porsche is does nothing but start the fire...

    Chromedome
  • starrow68starrow68 Posts: 1,142
    chrmdome: " ... why do Corvette guys come on this form and critique Porsche? I would really doubt , knowing the Porsche crowd, that we would go to your forum and put down Corvette. "

    I'm not doing a critique on a Porsche, I'm doing a comparison given info provided by
    published sources, one being the owner of this forum, presumably. You ask why
    someone comes on a Porsche forum, this is about sportscars, not just P cars, and
    at least in my world, sportscars go around corners, not through mud, most of the
    time.
    You ask questions but seem to not want to respond to any. With what you have
    acknowledged is a performance car that has, as you note, a top speed of 184mph,
    why don't you get it out where it can exceed some speed limits and see what it is
    really capable of? If you have it to drive it why be limited to 65 or 70mph when there
    are lots of options to safely expand your knowledge of how to drive what you spent
    some pretty good bucks acquiring? If you get passed by a Corvette, remember it
    is just someone that has more time on track and you will soon show how superior
    your machine can be handled! Looking forward to your first track report.

    Off to Thunderhill on Sunday for what turns out to be the last Street School hosted
    by the track. Thunderhill is owned by (Please Note) the SCCA, SF region. After
    this event, the track is going to sublet instruction of new drivers to one of the many
    private track event organizations, HookedonDriving. I expect I will see many P cars
    and a few Corvettes since they have over 50 drivers set up for instruction. Should
    be an amazingly beautiful day to enjoy showing a few folks how to better enjoy what
    they drive.
    Randy
  • chrmdomechrmdome Posts: 107
    Sir:

    I live in a nice neighborhood... at least 3 Porsches, many BMW's, many MB's and at least 2 Corvettes. Not a single track guy amongst us. That doesn't mean I don't enjoy my C2S . I went to the North Shore of Hawaii to go surfing a few years ago and while I was there the waves were at least 15 feet. Talking to one of the locals ( I didn't go out ) he commented( he didn't go out either ) " You have to know your limitations" . I never WANT to go 135mph... that ( again ) doesn't mean I don't enjoy my car. Some posters have stated Porsche has cheap plastic and archaic materials....come on, we all know Porsche is state of the art ..but some have to make that idiotic statement to feed the flame. My point is that critiquing my car, when it's a world class machine by anyones standards, does not elevate yours, the comments do nothing other than lower those who make the comments. Myself included. My questions were not retorical.. I got you to respond. I get so much enjoyment just driving my car down to the beach that I don't need the negitivism of thinking what I don't like about your car... so why are you guys so up tight about Porsche? Enyoy your cars... it's not worth the brain space. Lexus copies BMW and MB No car company is dumb enough to try to make their car look like a Porsche or a Corvette .Basically , knocking my car doesn't make your car better

    Chromedome
This discussion has been closed.