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Mazdaspeed3 vs. VW V GTI vs. Civic Si

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Comments

  • eldainoeldaino Posts: 1,618
    well, its actually more than just a paint job.

    farenheits aren't really all that much more expensive than some decked to the gills gti's and gli's: they include all the goodies standard, plus its a limited edition much like the r32, with a serial number and everything. Factor in the unique color, wheels, and interior trim and that tops off the price.

    For some people its awesome, like most special editions are, and for others who aren't dubbers, its no biggie, or 'stupid'. But all the ones i've seen have been snatched up.
  • eldainoeldaino Posts: 1,618
    thanks man! ;)
  • eldainoeldaino Posts: 1,618
    because its a decked to the gills special edition with exclusive everything.

    the launch control thing is a bit misleading though, current 'regular' gti's have it as well, its even in the brochures you can get at the dealer that come with the dvd.
  • creakid1creakid1 Posts: 2,032
    "In 2004 again the Mazda 6 was rated poorly for reliability in Consumer Reports while Europe raved about the outstanding reliability..."

    Just to clear the confusion. The Euro-spec are made in Japan & no clumsy nose-heavy 6 cylinder. The most & least reliable cars do not have much problems when new. Statistics show that 7-yr old Japanese cars got as much repair problems as 4-yr old American cars.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    me neither
  • creakid1creakid1 Posts: 2,032
    "You cannot "fishtail" in a FWD car. There is no power to the rear to push the rear out!"

    I guess you just don't know about Mazda's.

    I can fish tail my TTL-suspension FWD '90 Protege w/ factory LX sport package at low speeds, & even spin out if you want to see it! It's a dangerous car in wet. Am I the "drift king" around here? :confuse:

    But newer Mazda's w/ multi-link rear suspension is suppose to fish tail more predictably than the TTL (Twin Trapezoid Link).

    There no such thing as a nimble-handling 6-cyl FWD car. Even the 5-cyl MkII Focus ST loses out to the 4-cyl MkV GTI in all Brit's comparison tests, while the 4-cyl MkII Focus beats the 4-cyl MkV Golf! In case you wonder why the Mazdaspeed3 ditched that 5-cyl turbo engine from its twin brothers -- the Volvo S40/V50 & the MkII Focus ST.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    plus its a limited edition much like the r32, with a serial number and everything. Factor in the unique color, wheels, and interior trim and that tops off the price.

    A serial number?! Oh my god, it's got a number on it, so it's different from the other 250k GTIs VW will produce in 2007.

    Sorry but honestly, the car's got rims and a paintjob. Some interior trim and a numbered plaque hardly make it worth more than a regular GTI in my eyes.

    For some people its awesome, like most special editions are, and for others who aren't dubbers, its no biggie, or 'stupid'. But all the ones i've seen have been snatched up.

    My dad's a car collector and special editions that are really special can be worth quite a bit. Special editions of VWs though...it's a VW economy car with orange paint.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    Agreed, you can rotate a FWD car if the suspension is set up right. My 03 Pro ES was great for getting the car sideways on fun roads.

    I know the current GTI feels like it would come around if it had a tighter suspension. A solid rear sway might be enough...
  • eldainoeldaino Posts: 1,618
    A serial number?! Oh my god, it's got a number on it, so it's different from the other 250k GTIs VW will produce in 2007.

    yeah it is actually, it has exclusive interior trim, an awesome soundsystem, and just a few extra things that make it unique; considering all the options it has on it, it really isn't that much more than comparably equipped gti's without all those little things that make it different, such as the paint, trim, and rims.

    and economy car? blue guy you were really gung ho about the gti before you got the cooper, what happened? you don't have to hate on it now! if i remember correctly, you called the si out on its so called 'economy' interior and used the gti as the posterchild for NOT being like this, or taking the same approach when it came to the performance version. Why the sudden and very weird change?
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,327
    Well, what is THE EXACT difference in cost.... and what is the EXACT list of added/upgraded equipment.

    Someone do this!
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257

    and economy car? blue guy you were really gung ho about the gti before you got the cooper, what happened? you don't have to hate on it now!


    I still like it. Alot! The GTI is still the car when it comes to family time. GTI sits high (our A3's been great) and the only competition on the horizon still is the 335i sedan (fuel economy and cost tell me not to), 135 (if it's here as a hatch) and the new WRX hatch.

    if i remember correctly, you called the si out on its so called 'economy' interior and used the gti as the posterchild for NOT being like this, or taking the same approach when it came to the performance version. Why the sudden and very weird change?

    One word: Golf. Unfortunately, the new Golf does remind one that that GTI is a dressed up Golf. While Golf's are nice, they are the economy car of the VW brand in the USA.

    I was just playing around about the serial number thing. I get some like it but those add-ons don't justify the cost in my eyes.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    I figured as much, and didn't correct it so much for you as I did for readers (of which outnumber actual posters by a great deal) who may not know differently.

    Don't sweat it! :)
  • eldainoeldaino Posts: 1,618
    ah ok i gotcha man.

    having said that, i still think the golf/rabbit is the nicest appointed economy car, even edging out the 3. (less sport, more cheap luxo.)

    I'm not saying that I would pay that much for a gti, but for some people, its their thing.

    how has your mini been treating ya? my wife wants one, but she still likes backseats, and want to look into the club wagon thingy.
  • eldainoeldaino Posts: 1,618
    why don't you just go to vw.com and look at the standard features on the farenheit, equip a gti the same way, and then calculate the difference. And there you go.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    Yes, the Golf is nicer inside than the Mazda3.

    My mini has been fantastic. 3 months and I love it. Adore it. Can't wait to get in and drive it every day. Odd quirks with ergonomics and of course FWD failings aside, it's a just a gas. And I get 30 MPGs around town and on a recent roadtrip recorded 35 mpg running 80+ with the AC in 90-100 degree heat.

    The backseat on the R56 is usable if the driver/passenger is smaller. I'm only 5-7 so people fit behind me. The Clubman, will, of course, open up more space back there.
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,327
    I'm too lazy to do that, it looked like it was over a grand in differential costs, that's way too much!
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    I guess you just don't know about Mazda's.


    I only own a 2005 Mazda6, brother and best friend own Mazdaspeed6's. I work for a Mazda dealer for a few years now. Nope, I guess I know nothing about Mazda's. Try reading over 1000 posts I have made about Mazda's, or ask people here if I know what I'm talking about!

    I think you are not sure what "fish tailing" means. Your rear swaying side to side while propelling yourself forward. How does a FWD vehicle do that?
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    wiley,

    I am referring to how the Mazda6 handles in comparison to others in it's class. Not Infiniti, S2000 or Civic. The Accord does not handle all that well, in comparison to the Mazda6.

    And I'm thinking (don't hold me to this) that the Mitsubishi Evo could out handle the Mazda6

    There is no question the EVO will out handle the Mazda6. No contest.

    I am sorry for continued talking about the Mazda6, I know this is not the thread for it.
  • creakid1creakid1 Posts: 2,032
    "I work for a Mazda dealer for a few years now."

    A few years. Let's see, that's after the birth of Mazda3 & Mazda6, both of which had the suspension derived from the German-designed Focus & Mondeo, respectively. You want to know about Mazda's dark history? & No, I'm not talking about going bankruptcy due to the early rotary...

    "I think you are not sure what "fish tailing" means. Your rear swaying side to side while propelling yourself forward. How does a FWD vehicle do that?"

    During teenage years, once I was test driving my friend's 1st-generation FWD 626 at around 50mph. The back-end hopped suddenly for a very short duration when the short-spring rear suspension used up the travel as I did an abrupt lane-change test w/ the adjustable shocks set to soft. So that "hop" made the car fishtailed. & as I kept trying to correct it by countersteering, it wagged the tail a few more times & became worse so it got off the road on an uphill. Then the car flipped several times & landed upside down. My first reaction was, "why is car not as roomy as before?"

    Then in 1990 when Mazda named the 323 as Protege for the first time, Road & Track mentioned about its ultra-long rear suspension travel -- at 8.9". So I got interested & test drove it from a dealer. As I trailed throttle when cornering at about 30mph, it also fishtailed. Except that this time, the long rear springs did not used up the travel, so I counter steered & brought it back barely in time. The salesman was too scared to recommend another model for me to try until it fits.

    Anyway, I was too naive & believed that this oversteer problem can be allevieted simply by bumping up the rear tire pressure. (The culprit was that the early short-transverse-link design caused excessive camber change that no amount of toe-in from the TTL could compensate.) So I did ended up getting the car. Boy, was I wrong. Countless number of tail-wags have sharpened my skill. Even today, the only way to straighten the oversteer from this low-tech Japanese suspension is to step on the throttle. Even the less-fishtail-prone Escort version need to apply this methed (per Car & Driver). But it was only after I bought the car did Car & Driver mentioned about Protege's tailwagging "heart in the mouth" moment on fwy ramps. Today, I'm still keeping it as a toy to do "spin out"!!!

    Today, Mazda still retuned the German-platform Mazda3 to fishtail more than the MkII Focus/S40. I can wag its tail a bit during abrupt lane change at freeway speed, but not on the MkI Focus ST or the new S40 turbo. W/o DSC, the Mazda3 can be dangerous in the wet.

    See what the experts have experienced:
    http://www.msnusers.com/BrunoLuong/04caroftheyear.msnw
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    A few years. Let's see, that's after the birth of Mazda3 & Mazda6

    Wrong assumption, kid. No need for you to be cute, it won't work with me :P

    Now, I remember your original post saying that the Mazda6 has a "fish tail" problem from when you drove it out of the rental lot. I have tried to get my rear to kick out, and to no avail.

    I am guessing your "fish tail" issues you have with earlier Mazda's are not what I consider fish tailing. I would more or less call it wheel skip or hop. Which really, today, is a non issue with Mazdas in comparison to other mfg's. Mazdas are built to out handle their competitors. I really cannot think of one car they build that it out handled by any other car in it's immediate class.

    On a side note, I do not need any education in Mazda history, good and bad, thank you. I have been an enthusiast for years, and I know how to research, and read, strip and build. :shades:
  • creakid1creakid1 Posts: 2,032
    By the way, it was the other guy (not me) who said he fishtailed this car:
    gogogodzilla, "Mazdaspeed3 vs. VW V GTI vs. Civic Si" #1184, 19 Jun 2007 7:17 am

    In an early post "Mazda6 vs TSX" that was archived. A member name Stretch posted a continuous short-clip video of his red 4-cyl Mazda6 doing oversteer at the end of the track run. I believe he was decelerating to a stop on a sharp turn.

    My arguement about today's Mazda's reluctance to stay away from oversteer/fishtail is being shown on the Mazda3:

    http://www.msnusers.com/BrunoLuong/04caroftheyear.msnw

    "Paul Horrell (Great Britain) - sixth - The Mazda is another good-looking, enjoyable but noisy car. And its potential for oversteer is too much for most buyers in this class. Relying on DSC isn’t good enough."

    "John Simister (Great Britain) - last - Mazda's 'zoom-zoom' slogan dies seem to have lodged itself in the Mazda3, because it is a sharp, lively drive as befits its next-generation Ford Focus underpinnings. In fact there are times when its handling might be almost too tail-happy for an inexperienced driver."

    Totally lack of oversteer is boring. So oversteer isn't neccesarily bad. Uncontrollable oversteer is. That's why multi-link rules!

    Don't get me wrong. I was the one that has been posting around here for years saying that the Mazda3 is the best car in the world b/c it's the only one w/ German suspension, Japanese power plant & built in Japan. I also said that the 16"-rim RX-8 has the world's best ride/handling compromise (& I can't wait to see a taller roomier sedan version of it in the future). It's the Mazda-donated engine that saved Focus's reliability issue. I just wish the Mazda3 has a wider rear-glass visibility like the Mazda6. That was also why I picked the Focus 2.3 ST at the end over the Mazda3 & Volvo S40.
  • gogogodzillagogogodzilla MarylandPosts: 700
    Well, I still say it fishtailed.

    IE - When I pulled out of the Hertz Rent-a-Car lot at the BWI airport, the front wheels pulled the car along, but the back wheels had no traction at all. As I made a left turn out the lot, the rear end of the car kept on going in the direction that I no longer was.

    If it had continued, I'd have ended up doing a 360-degree spin-out in the middle of traffic (which ain't a good thing).
  • creakid1creakid1 Posts: 2,032
    Maybe there's something wrong w/ that particular car. Maybe the tire pressure was lopsided, had an accident (does the car only fishtail one direction or both?), off alignment, one rear shock is shot, or one transverse link broke.

    My '93 Camry SE had a scary rear skid on every bumpy left turn. It turned out that it had a defective aftermarket strut in the right rear!
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Pennsylvania Furnace, PAPosts: 5,868
    Not that this is the final word on the subject, but I've been driving FWD vehicles since 1979, and the only time I've ever had the back end break loose on one was in a very specific circumstance. I was coming down a slight grade in icy conditions. As I was slowing up for a stop sign, I lightly touched the brakes. The front wheels kept turning and maintained traction because they were being driven by the engine, but the rear wheels locked up and the car immediately swapped ends, turing 180 degrees.

    I'm assuming that whatever it was that happened for you to experience what you did, it was a very specific set of circumstances, because in 28 years and over 1.3 million miles on the collective odometers, I've only had that one event with the back end of a FWD car misbehaving.

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  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    By the way, it was the other guy (not me) who said he fishtailed this car:

    Oops! My appologies!! :blush:
  • creakid1creakid1 Posts: 2,032
    No sweat. I've never made any Mazda6 oversteer/fishtail, either. But it was the MazdaRevItUp event that showed me how clumsy a 6-cyl FWD Mazda6 handles (unwilling to change direction) vs the 4-cyl Mazda6. It was the RX-8 (w/o the sport suspension, I believe) that had the opposite effect -- wow, it also rides way way smoother than the Mazda3 over bumps.
  • eldainoeldaino Posts: 1,618
    does being designed in germany make the suspension german? just wondering.

    i still like the ride/handling balance in the gti better anyway.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    does being designed in germany make the suspension german? just wondering.


    That's an iffy one. It was designed by Mazdas German team, in Germany.

    The 1999-2005 Mazda Miata was designed in Irvine, California, does that make that Miata an American car? No. It was still the Japanese that built it.

    So, I would say that the Mazda3's suspension is Japanese.
  • creakid1creakid1 Posts: 2,032
    "So, I would say that the Mazda3's suspension is Japanese."

    Mazda3's Control Blade rear suspension is not a Japanese design (the earlier Mazda-suspension TTL -- Twin Trapezoid Link -- is). It was taken directly from the European-car Focus, which was derived from the old Mondeo wagon's unique space-saving "4-link rear suspension" set up. Mazda simply retuned it w/ different firmness & understeer/oversteer balance when using the whole MkII Focus platform. Only the steering rack was Mazda's own Japanese design, while the Focus & S40/V50 share the same European steering rack. Mazda's design team in Germany mainly only contributed the drivetrain portion in this C-1 project, which consists of Mazda3, MkII Focus & S40/V50. & yes, the drivetrain in the recent Focus in the U.S. is Japanese. So was the 1.8 in the '91 Escort GT/Tracer LTS.

    Just like the MkI S40 has a Japanese suspension (Mitsubishi Carisma platform) while the MkII S40 has the Focus Control Blade. & no, the Focus is not an American design. The Pinto is.

    Saying this suspension is Japanese is like saying the MkV Rabbit/GTI's Control Blade is a version of a Japanese suspension. :P
  • creakid1creakid1 Posts: 2,032
    "i still like the ride/handling balance in the gti better anyway."

    I agree about VW Rabbit's ride comfort beating just about everyone else's

    Those of you not happy w/ Mazda3's quicker-rebound ride movement can solve the problem simply by using Gabriel or std-S40 shocks to calm it down. That way, you are still keeping the only reliable "German" car on the road. :P
This discussion has been closed.