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Mazdaspeed3 vs. VW V GTI vs. Civic Si

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Comments

  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    I figured as much. It looked like you were on a roll though. I like one of your earlier posts: I also think our favorite contributor in this forum may be suspiciously absent as soon as the first head-to-head comparos are published.

    Seeing as how he's SUCH a big fan of stats....... :surprise:
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    I doubt that the vaunted Mazdaspeed 3 will beat those numbers by much, if at all.

    Look at these numbers and which is the probabal winner (Bold text denotes advantage):

    Horse power:
    Si 197 MS3 263
    Torque:
    Si 139 MS3 280

    Weight-HP ratio:
    Si 14.6 MS3 11.8
    Weight-TQ ratio:
    Si 20.7 MS3 11.1
    Standard Tires:
    Si All-season Radials P215/45 R17 87V
    MS3 Summer Radials P215 45 R18 93Y

    I think the 0-60 6.3 M/T time will be beat, as well as Edmunds time of 6.8 for the Si.

    Also, on a side note. Fuel economy. I know this is not of too much importance when purchasing vehicles like these, but, with only a 3mpg city, 4mpg highway EST advantage for the Civic, that hardly looks impressive considering the MS3 is .3L larger, and boasts 66 more horses and 141 more lbs. of Tq.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Will the Mazdaspeed3 require premium? I assume so. One big drawback of the car is the 20/28 mpg rating. I suspect given my driving style that'd be 20 mpg for me like my 330i (20/30 rating). The GTI DSG's 25/31 gets my eyebrow up as 25 mpg doesn't sound awful. $500 a year savings on the gas bill is hard to sneeze at (15k miles at $3.30 a gallon).

    Weight of the MS3 seems to be around 3100 lbs. How'd they add so much weight to the car?!
  • riposteriposte Member Posts: 160
    If $500 is that dear to you, then buy a regular Civic or Mazda3. Not only will you save a couple of thousand $$, you'll get better fuel mileage, AND they take regular gas.

    Reminds me of a blog I saw somewhere...the poster was whining that she wanted to put regular in her $40 Lexus, to save $$.

    I advised her to sell the Lexus, and buy something she could afford.

    :-)
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Yes, premium is required for the MS3, as well as the Civic Si and GTI.

    Where I am (Fairfield County, CT), premium is only $3.09 and regular is $2.91. If you drive 15,000/yr and average 20mi/gal, your fuel cost is $2,317.50 for premium. If you chose regular, it is $2182.50. Thats only a $135 difference. Shoot, I spend that on dinner every Saturday night. Thus, premium fuel is really no biggy. So, the premium fuel requirement should not be a financial burden on anyone, if it is, you have no business buying any of these vehicles.

    If you do a comparo between the GTI and MS3 it is about $460/yr difference. However, the GTI costs $23,370 for a base model with 18" alloys, and the MS3 is only $22,800. That's a difference of $570.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    How'd they add so much weight to the car?!

    My guess would be stiffer steel, the larger wheels, and the intercooler which IIRC is pretty heavy based on some posts in the SPEED6 threads.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    f $500 is that dear to you, then buy a regular Civic or Mazda3. Not only will you save a couple of thousand $$, you'll get better fuel mileage, AND they take regular gas.

    Maybe you didn't catch that I found the savings nice. My current car - a 2006 330i - gets 20 mpg, which is what I would expect to get with a Mazdaspeed3. There are few reasons this gets old:

    1. I'm forced to get gas once a week.
    2. I'm fond of my money and when the fun-to-cost ratio isn't in order (like say with my BMW), I begin to wonder if I'd like to put that money into other things (blinds for a room, a new fence, 401k, savings, another vacation, more sushi, etc).
    3. San Diego gas will in all likelihood break $4.00 a gallon in the near future. Each jump in price means every MPG makes a big difference. I spent a few hundred dollars driving around Europe in April. Expensive gas and cruddy gas mileage don't make for fun roadtrips.

    The GTI's 25 mpg offers a substantial boost for both 1 and 2. Perhaps the MS3 will be a blast to drive - or at least more fun than my BMW - and thus I won't mind getting gas constantly and paying out $2500 a year for gas.

    I wasn't talking about the regular v. premium debate. There's a performance difference when one cheaps out on gas. The performance gap between a GTI and Mazdaspeed3 could be wide but I'm betting it's gonna come down to Pepsi v. Coke. The GTI's got DSG, better mileage and fit/finish that only Audi trumps. The Mazda's got cat-like reflexes, lower ride height and Mazda reliability. Same prices approximately. The Mazdaspeed's more of a race car for the street - closer to the archaic WRX/STI and Evo but lacking in the AWD. The GTI's the long distance hauler that can be juiced up nicely with a few suspension and engine mods (strong aftermarket support too).

    I'm not saying gas mileage alone will cause me to withdraw my deposit on a Mazdaspeed3. That the dealer is now saying end of October may be the cause of that.. ;)
  • JBaumgartJBaumgart Member Posts: 890
    "Where I am (Fairfield County, CT), premium is only $3.09 and regular is $2.91."

    I just filled up today, at a station that I usually go to just outside of Minneapolis, and paid $2.429 for 91 octane. If I had opted for either 87 OR 89 octane, I would have paid $2.399, just 3 cents a gallon less. 3 cents is this station's normal premium/regular differential, so for me it makes paying for premium a non-issue.

    For the foreseeable future, gas prices generally appear to be headed down.
  • waiwai Member Posts: 325
    For you guys at CT & at Minneapolis, where you can easily find a station with 91 Octane and the price is only 5 cents difference for 87 & 91, you are lucky not to bother about the premium difference, here in NE around Delaware, MD or Pennsylvania where you seldom find 91 except in some Sunoco. and the price differece between 87 and 93 is from 30 cents to 40 cents difference. You may be tempted to fill in regular 87.
  • slownessslowness Member Posts: 6
    I read somewhere that the MS3 would be a 5.5s 0-60 car or so if it didn't have to shift to 3rd. But then again, maybe many other cars would, but it gives an idea of the power avail. It can pull 50-75mph in 3rd gear faster than a Porsche 997 carerra 2. It would be great for highway passing. The only thing I am worried about is a ride that may be much stiffer than the Si or Cooper S, otherwise it would be perfect.
  • 600kgolfgt600kgolfgt Member Posts: 690
    > For the foreseeable future, gas prices generally appear to be headed down.

    Until the day after the mid-term elections. Then we'll see gas prices rise faster than the space shuttle... :mad:
  • 600kgolfgt600kgolfgt Member Posts: 690
    >The best way to compare performance data is to take it from a head-to-head comparo which I'm sure we'll see for the Si, GTI, and MPS3 very soon.

    The MazdaSpeed 3 and the GTI are the only cars utilizing direct-injection (in addition to turbocharged) engines in this class - which is why they have the edge in low-end torque...
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    GTI, 4 door, package 1, DSG, rear airbags, 18s. United Gray.

    First, this car is, for me, so much better looking as a 4 door. The two door looks wide, tall and squat. This sucker is looks a decent length, the rear doors break up the sides and I live the rear view of the car for some odd reason. Helping the look, VW lowered the GTI for 07, so it's 22mm lower than the 06 models. Wow, what a difference 1 inch makes.

    This was the cloth interior package (#1) - my first time in one - and I found it pretty comfy. My girlfriend immediataly complained about the tacky pattern on the seats. Okay, so if this is the car, leather it is.

    I like the interior and feel of the 4 door more too. I've had mostly 4 doors in my life and i like having the b pillar right next to me. Can't explain it. But I like it. The extra length of the GTI 4 door made the car seem more open and roomy too**. The back's got good space and the upright seating position means even 6 footers can get behind me comfortably.

    Love that trunk. Yeah it's not as deep as my 330i but the hatch action is awesome (BMW should incorporate that emblem trunk operation instead of their moronic little rubber button). Space is good, tall and close. Seats fold in a myriad of ways too. All the interior seems inteligently designed. One side note, the driving position, if when I kept the seat low, made me feel like I was sitting inside a tub. The dash is just too darned high.

    So on to the drive. Last time I felt the 06 GTI 2 door was wobbly and too darned tall. The lowered ride height helps but the car still seems top heavy and in sweepers the understeer and teetering feeling kicked in no matter how I approached corners. From tracking my 330is I've been taught how to approach the line and get the car level and pointed in the right way...but that's for a RWD car. This puppy just wanted to understeer if I hit the corner already turning, at the turn or late into the corner. Still it hugged the road better than most cars but the lean and feeling of understeer became a tad frustrating. A sway would probably help and maybe even more lowering.

    The engine's flat awesome. It pulled better than my 06 330i. Quite simply that 2.0T is a dream. Ripping onto the freeway a few time my girlfriend expressed shock at home much better the car pulls from 0 to 100 than my current car. The engine growl also added to the visceral fun of accelerating. You know the car's built for playing when you get on it hard. Obviously, the 400 lbs weight advantage for the GTI 4 door also helps make the power-to-weight better.

    I attribute the following to the otherwise insanely fun DSG: the torque would come on with a squit. The car would start rolling at 1200 or so rpm and at 2000 the damned car would take off suddenly. I squealed the tires many times on launch. I'd say the dsg and my experience driving BMW manuals (you have to give Bimmers serious gas to get their fat butts moving) contributed to the squeal problem.

    The 18s have to go. The road noise inside the cabin was ridiculous. We hopped into my 330i after the drive and immediately we both noticed that road roar wasn't present v. the GTI. Heck, the 3's got lousy runflats too, yet the tire noise wasn't nearly as severe. I'd like to try a GTI with 17s (I'm through with 18s) as that may cure the drone we heard.

    On our 45 minute test drive - the guy gave us the keys and we split - we visited my sister so we could get feedback on their thoughts (overall positive). She and her husband loved the space, the packaging and the price. The gas mileage is nothing to sneeze at eiher, as that would represent a 25% base increase for me (I tend to get city mileage in my mixed driving).

    Overall I'm conflicted now. The 07 GTI 4 door is a car I could live with easily. The power's great, the DSG addictive and the space, efficiency and cost all make this car an insane bargain. At 25k MSRP (figure 2k lower after dealing) it's hard to think much compares. I love the little growl the car makes at WOT - mentally it's so much more fulfilling than the dullness of the 330i at WOT.

    That said, the FWD understeer of the car and the body leaning got on my nerves. Driving in my 330i the seating position felt much lower and natural (my old 46 had the perfect driving position, the e90 it's pretty good). The 330i's cornering attitude really does trump the GTI by a wide margin. Some say the GTI can whip through a slalom faster and maybe it can. But the chassis gives every indication that the car is going cause a flip or a serious slide when hitting corners fast. And finally the din. I'm assuming it's the 18s. If it isn't, then at 80+ the car's pretty darned loud. Not a deal breaker.

    At this point, I'm left running numbers and trying to decide if I can put up with 11-12 more months of my 330i (BMW usually offers a lease buyout with 6 months left on the lease). The GTI 4 door offers a great value being fun, efficient, small, and hints of of luxury. My girlfriend thinks I'm more in love with the DSG and the size of the vehicle than the overall car: she contends i'm drawn to the turbo's power, the DSG's quickness and the smaller, lighter car without really enjoying the drive nearly as much. She could be right. Damn BMW for not selling a small car here!!! Her take: wait for BMW to release a DSG-like tranny and snatch up a massive 335i sedan in 08 in Europe.

    Now if VW put 4 motion in this bugger...well argh. VW should release the R32 in the 4 door model here too. they've got it all over the world but here. From a Top Gear review I watched online that car looks like stupid fun for 32k.

    ** On the VW Boards people are saying the 2 and 4 door are the same length; they felt decidely different to me.
  • ambullambull Member Posts: 255
    Geez that was an informative post!
    I drove a GLI last year and really liked it.. don't remember sitting too low.
  • carfanatic007carfanatic007 Member Posts: 267
    How many cars have you gone through the past five years? Just curious because you always seem to change your tune. You traveled to Europe to pick up your BMW.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    In five years?

    2001 VW Jetta 1.8T Wolfsburg (sold June 2003)
    2003 BMW 330i Perf. Package (returned May 2006)
    2003 Mazda Protege ES (sold in June 2005)
    2006 BMW 330i ZSP (picked up in Munich, April 6, 2006).

    I'm never satisfied. And I'm the auto industry's dream come true. I go through cars constantly and the 2003 330i was the only car I've held through its entire round of lease/payments. Before 2001 I had a 91 Nissan Stanza I drove from 95 to 2001.
  • samasclsamascl Member Posts: 17
    I purchased a new car last saturday, the car 300 miles on it, and the second first day blinkers stopped working, then, after 5 day engine light show up in my panel...
    I live in GA, the lemon law does not help to return my car...beacuse it have not even been in the shop yet (i SUPPOSED TO HAVE AN APPOINMENT WITH THEM TO FIX IT NEXT TUESDAY, BUT THE ENGINE LIGHT CAME UP TO DAY)
    Together with that they sold me the car with a contract that is subject to aproval, and they just ask me that the need that my co signer have to go like primary...and I have paper work again..will that be my way to finish with this nightmare?

    So if i refuse to make a new contract they just have to keep the car, ant thay don't suppose to charge nothing to me?
    I need help as soon as possible, if someone know about this, or had the same situation I will apreciate advises...I do not wanna keep a "new problem car"

    please help :lemon: :cry: :confuse:
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Try this site: http://www.myvwlemon.com/
  • 600kgolfgt600kgolfgt Member Posts: 690
    According to Car And Driver's 2007 new car preview, the GTI's suspension will be lowered about an inch or so, and launch control will be offered.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Vortexers are saying that the lowering won't occur until December for 07s. Shrug. They'd probably know more than me about it.
  • slownessslowness Member Posts: 6
    http://forums.focaljet.com/mazda-3/525990-mazdaspeed-3-already-out-australia.htm- l

    LOOK at all those red ones lined up ready to eat up GTI's. mmmm...
  • nmrtnmrt Member Posts: 56
    check this comparison out GTI vs Mazdaspeed3 vs others:

    http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/ArticleDetail.aspx?ArticleID=18339&vf=15
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Interesting...
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    What's interesting is that I've read a large number of (overseas) reviews of the Speed3, and THAT reviewer is the only one to have ANY issues with the characteristics of the electronics managing the DSC/torque steer management system.

    I couldn't tell from the review but I wonder if a pre-production car was being evaluated? Is it possible that the behaviour of the torque steer management system was still being tweeked?
  • slownessslowness Member Posts: 6
    do you have any links?
  • ezcompanyezcompany Member Posts: 28
    hmm
    I don't know how much to trust those reviews. I don't see the horses listed anywhere for those cards. Their conclusion seems very unsatisfactory. They need to list out in order what they think each car is rated on a scale. Also, MOTOR TREND did a write up on the SPEED3 and they were impressed. so that gives us conflicting reviews. which is not good for the consumer basically. At this point, I still think MS3 will be a fun to drive car and nice overall.

    By the way, news on the ship carrying MS3's for the west coast is that its being pulled into Seattle harbor and after inspecting. All damaged cards will be sold are used..so there are going to be some insane deals on the west coast.
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    There were NO Speed3's on the Cougar Ace.

    A list of the VIN's of all Mazda's on the Cougar Ace which are salvagable and offered for sale will, at some point, be listed on Mazda's web-site (and sold as 'used' rather than as 'new'; I have no idea what kind of warranty will come with those cars).

    Here's another hands-on review of the upcoming Speed3 (with the reviewer doing track-time at Laguna Seca):

    http://cars.ign.com/articles/730/730560p1.html
  • slownessslowness Member Posts: 6
    it's funny, both cars trace their lineage back to the C170 Focus. The Mazda3 obviously, and the GTI not so obviously. Volkswagen hired ex-Ford Focus engineers from Germany to insert the Focus rear suspension into the MKV Golf. (Note the irony in VW's unpimp auto ads - they smash a Ford Focus in one). That's why both cars handle so well over mid-corner undulations. It's a shame that the GTI steers with an electric system while the Mazdaspeed 3 reverts back to a conventional hydraulic system.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    It's a shame that the GTI steers with an electric system while the Mazdaspeed 3 reverts back to a conventional hydraulic system.

    Where did you see this? I was under the impression that the MS3 used the same electro-hydraulic system found in the regular production Mazda3
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FullTests/articleId=116868

    That 5.9 0-60 (Edmunds is always conservative) and 68.2 mph slalom tells ya everything you need to know about how this car will fair against the vaunted SI.

    Let's see, it's off the line over a second faster than the SI and can corner almost as fast. Of course, coming out of the corner the car's got 280 ft-lbs of torque to hammer home, giving it a terminal velocity in straights that an SI would never be able to achieve.

    How will Mazda keep these things on lots?!
  • kurtamaxxxguykurtamaxxxguy Member Posts: 1,798
    In part, depends on how greedy the dealers are (are $5 - 10 K markups likely here in California?). But that hasn't slowed sales of hot cars here.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    No markup at all on the mazdaspeed3 at my local dealer. Shrug. Markup on an economy car?
  • riposteriposte Member Posts: 160
    Many dealers marked up the Subaru Impreza WRX when it came out in 2002.

    Many more dealers marked up the Honda Civic Si, and some continue to try to do so.

    I used to get mad about stuff like that, now, I just don't care. If someone wants to pay up, let them.

    There are plenty of cool cars out there, and more on the way....like the 2008 replacement for the WRX, among others.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    The markup on the civic is hilarious. My co-worker spent over a month tracking down his SI. He finally found a dealer in Riverside who didn't add anything to the car (the favorite markup trick: it's not marked-up, we just added better rims and a different chin spoiler for 4k...lol) and sold it at MSRP.

    Hard to believe people are dropping 27k on a Honda Civic SI.
  • riposteriposte Member Posts: 160
    One of the local Honda stores has a USED Si with upgraded wheels, and a bunch of body kit stuff on it...they're advertising it for $28,495 !!!

    Good luck to them.

    Ridiculous USED Si
  • carfanatic007carfanatic007 Member Posts: 267
    Sounds like a crooked dealer trying to take advantage of availability. The same thing is happening with the Honda Fit. I paid MSRP for mine, and I had to wait almost 3 months. I would NEVER pay over MSRP.
  • audia8qaudia8q Member Posts: 3,138
    Sounds like a crooked dealer trying to take advantage of availability

    nothing crooked about it..nobody has to buy the car if they don't like the price....if you advertised your personal car for more than it was worth and somebody offered to buy it would you turn the buyer away? I suspect you would be laughing all the way to the bank..thrilled that you found an idiot who was stupid enough to pay your asking price...
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    True. If anything the pricing of Si's shows how stupid the buyers are. 28k for a civic with a 200 hp engine is hilarious.
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    Just saw the November issue of C&D on the newstand at my local B&N over lunch. A bright red Speed3 was plastered across the cover and full road test spanning several pages was inside.

    One notable quote I'll paraphase here "...and it'll slap a Civic Si silly."

    Overall, they were very impressed (with one editor writing that "the line for a new Speed3 forms behind me). Their biggest gripe concerned the feel of the shifter.....and difficulty in perfecting their launch technique.

    They had a real tendency to either completely boil the tires, resulting in poor times, or let the revs fall too much and come off boost. They noted they 'painted' their launch area black with more than 30 launches trying to fine tune their technique.

    As I said, overall they were very impressed.
  • carfanatic007carfanatic007 Member Posts: 267
    I will take my SI over a MSP3 anyday. Honda vs Mazda, any day. I surely hope that a 260 plus hp turbo will beat an SI! Although, slap it silly, Nah. Probably win by .5 - .75 second.
  • fasterthanyoufasterthanyou Member Posts: 131
    Honda Civic SI superior...That's a good one. LOL
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    Civic Si superior in what way?

    Gas mileage? Better color selection? It's got a really nifty logo?

    About the only way the Si would be superior (IMO) would be a better shifter (of course, this is only going by published reviews of both cars; since I've not driven EITHER one, I can't speak to the relative driving qualities).

    "Honda vs Mazda, any day."

    Are you driving a car, or a car company? BTW - I'm currently on my FOURTH Honda (started with a CRX in '84, a CRX Si in '86, a Civic Si in '91 and my wife currently drives an '05 Odyssey) so don't think I'm just dismissing the current Civic Si (or Honda) out of hand.

    It's just that I'd rather attempt to directly compare a Speed3 to a Civic Si (or against whatEVER I might be interested in) and compare the actual vehicles rather than get bogged down in which is the better overall company.

    BTW - C&D stated that the difference between the Si and the Speed3, IN THEIR TESTING, was 1.4 seconds. But I'd rather see comparison times done by the same drivers on the same days on the same track in a direct head-to-head comparison than to try and dig up stats on cars tested months (years?) apart.
  • carfanatic007carfanatic007 Member Posts: 267
    You can quote, argue, rant, whatever. I'm only stating my opinion. Obviously, you have different ones. I am in YOUR room stating them. I believe the SI is the best performance bargain there is, period. For the money you get alot. I'm not saying it is the fastest car, not by far, but, for the money it is great. I'm not interested in red light racing, I just like the car, period. I think Mazda, which is owned by Ford is going down hill. Honda on the other hand, is selling like mad. Why? Superior quality, reliability and resale value.
  • fasterthanyoufasterthanyou Member Posts: 131
    Mazdaspeed 3 was not yet released and you already know Honda Civic SI has better reliability? That says enough about the way you make decisions in buying a car. What is better Honda Civic SI , Honda Civic SI or Honda Civic SI? I know... is Honda Civic SI. Man... I know so much about cars...
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    I think Mazda, which is owned by Ford is going down hill. Honda on the other hand, is selling like mad. Why? Superior quality, reliability and resale value.

    I think you better do some homework before you post next time so you can save yourself from looking like an idiot...

    Mazda is owned 33.4% by Ford, so what? Mazda had it's best sales year EVER in 2005, with their ever so popular sporty line-up. Mazda is also on pace to smash 2005's sales record as well. (www.mazdausa.com).

    Where do you base your opinion that Mazda is going down hill? What info are you privledged that the rest of us are not to know this?

    In terms of reliability and quality. I can disagree. I have owned Honda's in the past, and currently own a Mazda. No issues reported for either. Resale value? Currently the Mazda6, Mazda3 are right on pace in resale value with the Accord and Civic.

    This is not a Honda Vs. Mazda thread, let's try to stay somewhat on topic.
  • carfanatic007carfanatic007 Member Posts: 267
    Honda reliability, resale is so far above either Mazda or VW is it laughable. LMAO!
  • fasterthanyoufasterthanyou Member Posts: 131
    What is laughable is that someone actually believes that. I feel sorry for you.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Do you sell/buy or service/repair Honda's or Mazda's for a living? I do. I am around them every single day. Not just as an owner, but a retailer and service center.

    I can go to the auction and get more money for a Mazda3 then the 2006 Civic, comparably equipped. Mazda6's and Honda Accords do roughly similar money.
  • audia8qaudia8q Member Posts: 3,138
    some people would defend a Yugo if it had a Honda badge on the side.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Let's have the Honda conversations in Honda-related discussions, okay?
This discussion has been closed.

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