Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

backy · July 2005

How is adding more HP, more safety features, more options, and a new transmission choice as well as improving the styling sad?

It's not sad, it's very good. Interestingly, that's exactly what Hyundai did with the '06 Sonata, and then some.

Have you driven the Accord back-to-back on the same roads vs. the '06 Sonata? It's an enlightening experience. I agree with your assessment that the Sonata is the "underdog" today, because it has to overcome a large bias in favor of Honda and Toyota. And people who have that bias will go buy an Accord or Camry and never even look at a Sonata. That's too bad for them, though. Every review I've seen of the '06 Sonata has said it's worth a look--even the relatively negative Healy review said that.

One thing about crash tests--a lot of buyers don't pay much attention to them. Remember the poor side impact crash test on the latest Camry, when it first came out? That didn't stop the Camry from being the top-selling car in the U.S. But being the underdog, the Sonata will be expected to ace the crash tests, be tops in reliability (something an all-new design rarely is, even for Honda and Toyota), and generally walk on water. It's tough being the underdog.

choe13 · July 2005

i got three words to say

just drive one

If the H badge on the hyundai was Honda you would be praising Hyundai. Stop being brainwashed. Next you will tell me the civic is the best compact car when clearly the Mazda 3 is head and above the best in its segment.

just drive the Sonata then you will see

ctalk · July 2005

OK first of all ELANTRA is not the safest compact sedan. It is not even close to being the safest sedan. IIHS did not give it a Best Pick, but it gave a best pick to Mazda 3, Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla, Volkswagon Beetle, Chevrolet Cobalt and Suzuki Aerio but not Elantra. "http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/summaries/small_overall_c.htm"
Why do you have to lie to make the Sonata look better?

anonymousposts- People who want Accords and Camrys will buy Accords and Camrys and barely give the Sonata a sideways glance
Agree with you on that, i know a lot of loyal Camry and Accord buyers that dont even look at the Sonata.

The Hyundai Sonata is far from leading, it's still considered an underdog like anonymousposts said.

ctalk · July 2005

You posted Accords number one competitorSonata, in the Honda Accord Sedan forum, why are you trying to drag Accord drivers? Sonata is not Accord's number one competitor by the way its Camry.

jc9799 · July 2005

Hyundai has to do something to get people to look at them. The new Sonata needs have something that's better than Accord or Camry. It used to be just the price advantage. Now they have more standard safety features, a larger interior and still have their price and warrenty advantage. Will this make people leave their Accords and Camrys? Probaly not, but it makes Hyundai a much bigger player in the segment.

ctalk · July 2005

The Sonata is a much bigger player in the segment, but it's still known as the price advantage. If Hyundai prices their Sonata as high as Toyota or Honda there is not going to be as many Sonata's on the road as there are today. They still need to lower their prices in order to compete with the Accord or Camry.

choe13 · July 2005

are you a big accord or camry loyalists?? your talking to a fellow who has owned an accord for 4 years now ( 94-99 ), but unlike yourself i do have a more open mind.

This topic should be more about car comparisons then personal attacks, but there are a few of you proud accord, camry loyalists who think that they are the best and smartest owners out there.

Ctalk i just get a email back from one of the car and driver editors who in his opinion believes the sonata could possibly have a chance to crack top 10 car of the year, something that would be laughable given any past years or any cars hyundai has to offer.

I guess until something like that happens, you will think the accord or camry are the greatest cars in the world.

Like i said fine cars, but if you could get a similiar car a couple grand cheaper, its a no brainer.

and i'm sorry about that #1 competitor crap

Honda Accord is the sonatas #1 competitor now

jc9799 · July 2005

Even if you're not a Sonata fan, it's extensive list of standard features and price advantage forces others in the segment to at least look at themselves, and try to improve. Competition is great for all of us consumers.

ctalk · July 2005

I am not an Accord or Camry fan i just feel the Accord is better then the new Sonata. I have owned a Accord in the past (1990) and tried Toyota, Chevrolet and Volkswagon from 1990 to my present car 05 EX V6. I am a very open minded, and i do like the new Sonata. What i meant by #1 competitor is #1 competiton. The Camry is a better seller then the Accord. But your right the Sonata is the Accords #1 Competition (when it comes to ratings like car and driver 10 best). I do think it has a chance to get Car and Driver 10 best next year, it is a very rounded vehicle and is in my eyes much better then the current Camry but i still think it will have a very hard time beating the Accord.

I do not think the Accord and Camry are the greatest cars in the world they are no where from perfect they have their problems for Camry it is its bland personality, for the Accord it is its styling...

I did test drive the Sonata infact my friend works at the dealer and would have gave me a great discount on the Sonata but i felt the Accord was a better fit for me because it has a sportier interior, better steering, firmer suspension and strong reputation. But the Sonata is great, it's very powerful, nice steering (better then Camry's numb feel), and nice supsension. It's a huge improvement over the previous model.

But i still think the Accord is leading (and the Camry is in sales). Hyundai has a great chance at leading its just like i said before if the Sonata is priced the same way as Honda people will most likely buy Honda. Hyundai still needs a couple years to take its image of 'Price advantage' off or it will never be as strong as Honda and Toyota are today.

I'm sorry if i came a little to hard on you, I am very open minded compared to my friends some of them dont even consider Honda because its not as reliable as Toyota :P. The Sonata is a well rounded vehicle, but the Accord was more to my taste and needs.

ctalk · July 2005

Choe13 Which editor did you talk to, i'd like to ask a few questions myself.

anonymousposts · July 2005

If the H badge on the Sonata were a Honda badge I would have a few questions for Honda. First off, there would be no manual transmission option with a sunroof. That's something Honda has offered since the mid-80's. I would also want to know where they went wrong with interior design. This is one of the weak points of the Sonata in my opinion. Don't even bother responding "I love the interior of the Sonata". I'm sure that's true but I prefer the interior of the Accord.

The Mazda3 overall is a better car than the current Civic. However, my husband can't drive the Mazda so we would still have to buy the Civic.

choe13 · July 2005

good research by codata99 on the Sonata thread

"Actually the Sonata is the current benchmark in midsize class.

Honda and Toyota have a lot of catching up to do to barely match the overall performance and refinement.
The Sonata has 6,200 body welds, about TWO THOUSAND more than the Camry's(4,300).
How about paint? Matching the quality of the 18-pass rotary-dip electro-coat is simply out of the question. They don't have the Rho-dip facility. Only one other plant in N. America has one.

There are other stuff left out in the consumer brochures like the PWM-controlled enigne cooling fan because it's too technical.
It's a stepless speed control.
You're not gonna hear the fan kicking in like the Camcords even if you stick your ear close to the grille of the Sonata. The fan itself is quieter and has higher CFM spec than the Camry's.

Simply put, the current Accord and Camry is a generation behind the Sonata in NVH performance and body integrity.

Also the factory is a benchmark, it's the future of auto plants. No fork-lift trucks are there. Material and parts handling is completely automated.
The plant requires only 2,000 workers for 300,000 annual production.
Honda's Alabama plant needs 4000 for their 300,000 max. output. Two thousand more people...think about that.

http://www.autofieldguide.com/articles/060502.html

"One benefit to the Montgomery operation is the fact that the Sonata has been in production in Korea since September, 2004. Not only has this afforded the Hyundai America people an opportunity to become familiar with the process (the processes and equipment used in the two plants are common), but Krafcek observes that generally, the six months before a vehicle is launched is the time during which there is a flurry of issues that arise and need to be addressed and that the number of these issues then diminishes in the months after launch. Consequently, he maintains, the six months of production in Korea will help the people in Montgomery achieve a stable operation."

If you're considering Sonata, don't worry about the quality.
They are aiming for an IQS score of 80 PP100 for 2006 Sonata. Good enough to put it in top 3 in premium midsze category, I think. "

choe13 · July 2005

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=6&article_id=2395&page_number=1

They are the same company road and track and car and driver that is, but have two different way of explaining this car. There are also a couple of statements that say in the terms of " something the accord and camry could not achieve" . Warm up to hear alot of those statements

Positive review

ctalk · July 2005

I too commend codata99 for his excellent research. I trust that it is completely accurate and have no dispute over his findings. However, like he said "it's too technical". I highly doubt many consumers will be persuaded to purchase a sonata simply because it has more body welds, uses a higher quality paint from an "18-pass rotary-dip electro-coat" and has a "PWM-controlled enigne cooling fan". While these impressive features may cause a select group automotive engineers and car fanatics to salivate, the average consumer is more concerned with the fundamentals. I highly doubt that this "PWM-controlled enigne cooling fan" will translate into noticeable and tangible improvements in engine noise, nor will more body welds which do admittedly give the car more body rigidity be noticed by the average consumer. As for the "18-pass rotary-dip electro-coat" giving the sonata a sheen that is noticeably superior, are you kidding me? However, if one can show that all the above innovations are noticed by the average consumer then I will be the first to concede my point. As for the factory being a benchmark, while I have no doubt that it is true, will hardly be a compelling selling point for consumers. Should I really care that my accord took more workers to build? Where I feel the sonata has failed, despite having some new technical innovations, isn't clearly differentiating itself from its competitors. For a supposedly next-generation car the sonata offers precious little more (if at all) in the way of vehicle performance, safety, features and amenities. Having read many of the reviews and test driven the new sonata there's nothing to convince me that the sonata is a next-generation vehicle that is head and shoulders above industry standards like the camry and accord. It has reasonably strong performance, is well equipped at all levels and is quite spacious and comfortable. However, the same can be said of both the accord and camry (well the camry falls slightly short in performance). In such a competitive market the sonata failed to establish itself as the new class leader. It is merely a worthy competitor. The one key selling point of the sonata, which I suspect hyundai supporters will bring up is its excellent price. While this may entice a few buyers away who would otherwise have chosen the accord or camry, hyundai has just reinforced its image as a lower-cost alternative to the accord or camry. What the sonata needed to do was to market itself as not only a lower cost vehicle but as the new class leader which as added bonus also happened to have a lower price. I find it disappointing that hyundai is merely content to position itself as being on par with the camry and accord albeit at a lower price. Brand loyalty is a definite factor for many consumers in purchasing a new car and Hyundai has failed to do enough with its sonata to convince many accord and camry loyalists to make the switch. Toyota and Honda are still PERCEIVED to make better cars even though this may no longer be true. The 06 sonata needed to be a killer breakout vehicle that would leave no doubt in any consumer's mind of its superiority. The 06 sonata is not this car. Many people find the sonata's exterior and interior design to be rather average (of course this is subjective but the sonata just seems rather blah to me). As well, its mileage is not very impressive. These points have been done to death and I apologize for rehashing them but the fact that these points are brought up at all indicates that the sonata is not the revolutionary vehicle it so needed to be. The 06 sonata should have been able to silence any and all critics (ok well at least most). Some might think that I have unreasonable expectations of the sonata. But since Hyundai is still perceived to make inferior vehicles to toyota and honda (which I disagree with, they do make fine vehicles), the sonata needed to be the car equivalent of the second coming of christ (just kidding, well sort of :P ). What I fear may happen is when the 07 camry and 08 accord redesigns come out, the sonata may get left behind in the shuffle. Unfortunately the sonata, while a fine vehicle came out a little too late. Worthy competitor. Certainly. Lower priced but equally well equipped vehicle. Most assuredly. New class leader and industry benchmark. Hardly.

bhmr59 · July 2005

I've ridden in but not driven an '05 Acord. Compared to my '05 GLS Special Value trim, the Acord did not have an advantage in quality, features or ride. I don't know about the safety issue and don't know if the Honda has side air bags. The '05 handles fine, looks great, rides super AND everything fits like it is supposed to.

Resale value compared to MSRP will be lower on the Sonata than the Acord. However, resale compared to actual purchase price will be close (Sonata may even come out ahead). I plan to keep the car at least 6 years.

Does the Acord have heated seats, homelink mirror, auto climate control, CD & cassette, heated out side mirrors and many other features? I don't know, am not being smarta**. But feature for feature, the '05 GLS SV stacks up great against any non-premium midsize (probably does well against many of the premiums also). Leather seats & sunroofs don't excite me, but I could have had both for about $1400 additional.

$4 to $5,00 less for the Hyundai vs Honda. I didn't have to think too hard. (Don't judge the '05 Sonata by the GL or even the GLS.) 0 to 60 doesn't turn me on, as long as the car has adequate power. I mean what's the difference between 8.7 and 7.9 seconds in regular driving? I don't know Honda's rating but would guess it's no faster than 7.9.

backy · July 2005

Here's a few questions that I would ask Honda about the Accord:

* Why did you make the control layout on the center stack so darn complex?

* Why can't you equip the driver's seat of a car that list for over $23,000 with something better than a simple up/down adjustment for the seat bottom?

* When are you going to ditch the mouse-fur cloth interior of the Accord EX with something a little classier, and more befitting its price?

* Why, after seven generations of Accord, haven't you figured out how to make a good-handling car that doesn't make you feel every little imperfection on the roadway?

* Why can't you back up your reputation for quality with a warranty that lasts more than 3 years, like almost all of your competitors do?

backy · July 2005

Car and Driver measured 7.0 seconds 0-60 for the Sonata LX. Hyundai itself claims 7.7 seconds 0-62 mph, which is probably more realistic for most drivers (those C/D testers use a few tricks to get the fastest 0-60 times that few everyday drivers would employ).

backy · July 2005

You've illustrated exceptionally well my earlier point that the Sonata needs to walk on water to impress some people. The fact that it is the undisputed class benchmark for interior room, safety features, warranty (tied with the Optima and Galant, but it's a far superior car to those), and features-for-the-dollar isn't enough. There's a few other things too, such as, how many other cars in this class have a 5-speed autostick? How many offer the Sonata LX's blend of power, handling, and ride quality? How many cars in this class have as classy an exterior as the Sonata? (Hint: not the Accord, Camry, or Malibu. Maybe the Altima, except for its weak nose.)

As for the future, don't forget that Hyundai still has some tricks up its sleeve waiting in the wings with the Sonata, e.g. the adaptive rear suspension and the 3.8L V6 from the Azera. And shortly after the new Accord comes out for '08, the Sonata will be due for its mid-life refresh. Recall what Hyundai did with the '02 Sonata: almost a complete restyle, engine upgrades, updated interior.

choe13 · July 2005

Pardon me but what in heavens are you talking about?? You are talking about fundementals yet you are nitpicking everything that could be wrong with hyundai.

It has to walk on water?? second coming of jesus?? unlike the Honda Accord it is trying. Offering more safety features, longer warranty, benchmarking cars like audi and lexus for superior craftmanship and NVH.

What has Accord done for you or any of its loyal fans lately?? i don't think adding an i to VTECH is called fan pleasing in my books. It has a halfdone exterior design makeup also.

Honda needs the TSX to be the accord , and then i will gladly admit it is a better car. But until then, a solid yet untrying car like the accord, cannot fool a customer like me.

norne · July 2005

"The Mazda3 overall is a better car than the current Civic. However, my husband can't drive the Mazda so we would still have to buy the Civic."

and just why your husband can't drive the mazda3???

ctalk · July 2005

Unfortunately for Hyundai the Sonata almost does need to walk on water. Please don't get me wrong. I sincerely believe that the 06 sonata is an excellent vehicle which stacks up extremely well against the competition's current offerings. It does have more interior room (though not that much more in my opinion), more safety features (just vehicle stability control which the accord refresh will receive) and a better warranty (gotta give you that) not to mention a better price. But I just want to express my doubts over the sonata's ability to take on the upcoming redesigns from honda and toyota. Honda and Toyota have remained class leaders for so long because they have consistently improved their vehicles when it didn't seem even possible. I would have to disagree with you about Sonata about its power, handling and ride quality. Its engine performance, while comparable to the Accord and Altima should not just merely be comparable. It should go above and beyond any other midsize sedan. Do you seriously think the upcoming Camry and Accord won't improve their engines? As for handling and ride quality, this area is a little more subjective. I personally feel that my ex v6 handles better and I like its decidely firmer ride but I do admit Hyundai is no slouch in the handling and ride department. But again, it needs to be convincingly superior and not merely comparable. Regarding exterior design, another subjective area, I admit the accord doesn't have the greatest design and this is the area where Hyundai should really have capitalized on. Instead I find the sonata's styling to be rather mediocre, taking design cues from different manufacturers without having its own distinctive look. Have you seen the spy photos of the 07 camry? 2007 Camry Spyphotos Now that's a next generation vehicle! And correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the azera competing with the avalon? Honda doesn't have a vehicle in that segment. The Sonata is at best a slight improvement over its competition. The fact that the sonata only has a slight advantage against the current models from the competition does not bode well. It was supposed to destroy the current competition on every conceivable level and be competitive against the upcoming redesigns. You must acknowledge the fact that it will be difficult for the 06 sonata to convince legions of Accord and Camry loyalists to switch over when it only offers at best a slight improvement at a lower price. To give an example of a car that I feel improved itself to a degree where it could compete with the leaders in its class is the Acura TL. Its past model was mediocre in exterior/interior design, features, performance and safety. To even mention the 03 TL in the same sentence as the BMW 3 series and Infiniti G35 was laughable. However, the new TL has proven that it can compete with the latest offerings from BMW and Infiniti (rear wheel drive fanatics would vehemently disagree of course). When the TL came out it really surprised the industry with the combination of its price/performance/safety/features. Hyundai needed to follow Acura's example in reinventing its brand. The 06 sonata is an excellent effort but simply does not go far enough.

To Choe13: What are you talking about? Frankly to convince the many Accord and Camry loyalists to switch it does have be the second coming of christ. Hyundai is the underdog. It is seen as the lower cost inferior alternative. Being able to compete well or even have a slight advantage against 3 year old designs from honda and toyota just does not cut it. It had to be worlds away from the accord and camry and be able to compete with their upcoming redesigns.

bhmr59 · July 2005

Thanks for the info backy.

I was just trying to back up the "lowley" '05 Sonata that he was ragging on. The '05's 2.7L engine is rated at 8.7 seconds, 0 to 60. It's plenty fast enough for when I have to pull into traffic or merge onto a highway.

I first test drove an '05 in February and a friend was with me. We got on a highway and were doing 70+ in no time. Slowed down to 50 and then punched it about half throttle. Bang, back over 70 real quick. Friend has a V-8 Merc Mountaineer and couldn't believe the punch the Sonata has.

While the '06 has improved features over the '05, I'm still very happy with the '05. With the $1500 rebate I got and dealer willingness to discount, I saved about $4K compared to a similar '06. (Plus, I like the '05styling better. But, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.)

No matter how you slice it, Hyundai Sonata has come a long way in just a few years and keeps getting better.

Hyundai used to make crappy cars, just like Honda did. A few model years from now I think we'll see Hyundai resale jump just like Honda's did when they went from crappy to good. On the used car market there is , naturally, a time lag from the introduction of a model until a significant number of the models are sold as used cars.

backy · July 2005

You must acknowledge the fact that it will be difficult for the 06 sonata to convince legions of Accord and Camry loyalists to switch over when it only offers at best a slight improvement at a lower price.

I already did acknowledge that the legions of Accord and Camry loyalists probably won't even look at a Hyundai. But there's lots more buyers, including people who own other mid-sized cars, most of which without a doubt pale in comparison to the '06 Sonata. There's also the people looking to move up from a smaller car--like the 500,000 people who have purchased Elantras in the past few years. Hyundai has one of the highest brand loyalties around--no doubt helped by the "loyalty rebates" they offer. Bottom line is, Hyundai doesn't have to draw from the Accord and Camry loyalists to be successful with the Sonata. The first-year sales projections are only 150,000. They aren't trying to leapfrog the Accord and Camry sales numbers overnight.

ctalk · July 2005

Hopefully the Sonata has strong sales this year. I firmly believe that Hyundai is a worthy competitor to both Toyota and Honda. It just needs to change people's perceptions of its brand. The sonata undoubtedly will go a long way towards doing this. I admit I'm just a little disappointed and perhaps it's a little unreasonable of me to expect so much but I'm frankly sick of only being able to choose between a few models. It's the exterior and interior styling of the sonata that really turns me off. Both the Camry and Accord have rather bland and uninspired designs and to me the sonata continues this trend. Hopefully the next generations from the accord and camry (and I guess the sonata refresh) will dispel the notion that midsize sedans are boring and bland. To draw a rather elitist analogy, in the future Honda, Hyundai and Toyota will be like Harvard Yale and Princeton, all great choices. Oh and I'm not sure where I got the idea that Toyota was the only company to post a profit. Perhaps I meant that it was the only company to increase its profits? I'm not sure.

anonymousposts · July 2005

The control layout on the center stack is complex? OK. You have a large control in the middle for audio off/on and volume. In my Accord there are two dials on each side of the center dial that controls the temp (my Accord has dual-zone climate), beneath that you have the buttons for AC, Automatic (again my Accord has CC), and a few other buttons I've hardly ever had to use. I don't understand the complexity in that..... Additionally, the Accord is regarded as one of the best when it comes to interior ergonomics.

An 8-way power seat is nice to have but hardly a necessity. I get along just find in our Si with no power seat.

I didn't see anything wrong with the cloth in the Accord EX. In fact, I have yet to hear anyone complain about the quality of the cloth in the Accord. I have seen 10-13 year old Accords with 200,000 miles without a rip or tear in the seat.

If you don't like the Accord's ride then you don't need an Accord. My Accord handles road imperfections just fine IMO. The Mazda6 handles great but one of it's downfalls is a firm ride on the highway. BMW's aren't exactly known for being quiet or cushy but they are considered the benchmark by which all sedans are measured.

The best warranty is one that you don't need. Why should Honda offer a longer warranty when the don't need to? Honda has a track record for standing behind their product if there is a widespread problem. Hyundai's bumper-to-bumper is only 2 years longer and is only good for the first owner IIRC. If Hyundai's are the be all end all why is there a mileage limit at all on their warranty? Why not cover the entire car for 10 years/120,000 miles? I can buy an extended warranty for my Accord and still be out less money with that than I would be with the normal depreciation on the Hyundai.

anonymousposts · July 2005

My husband is 6'6. The seat in the Mazda doesn't go back far enough (that or the dash is angled badly for his height) for him to get comfortable. He is OK in the hatch but doesn't like the styling of the hatch.

choe13 · July 2005

you said

"The Sonata is at best a slight improvement over its competition."

So you even acknowledge this yet you still say its behind the accord and camry. I never said the sonata is head above better but slightly like you said.

Also you keep mentioning this second coming to christ nonsense, when clearly if you didn't notice 05 hyunda sonata (no offense to any owners) was nothing optimistic to expect for the 06 sonata. It has made HUMONGOUS strides, maybe in all of auto history( G35, M45) are probably some other exmaples.

You talk about 07 camry, while yes i finally can say the camry will be stylish looking, the wheels still look awfully small and they got to do a better job to make it look like it has bigger tires than that.

We can also affirm camry being camry , it will lack sporty appeal , which is ok since some people just want family cars, though the Sonata and Accord do a little extra to add some sportyness.

Lastly do you think hyundai is going to sit back while the accord and camry upgrade?? just wait for xenon lights, 5 speed auto tranny with shiftronic for the V4, enhance design cues, horsepower increases, and their unique suspension system add on to make it mimic its handling close to a rear wheel drive car.

It will be a full fledge midsize car war but i'm glad even a accord and camry critique like yourself can admit at the current time

"The Sonata is at best a slight improvement over its competition."

backy · July 2005

I think the Accord's center-stack layout is complex compared to many other cars, including the Sonata, that have simple, intuitive rotary dials for climate control (fan speed, mode, temperature) and simple audio controls. I would imagine though that owners would adapt to the Accord's layout over time.

I wasn't referring to the Sonata's optional (standard on LX) 8-way power seat. I was referring to the 8-way seat that is standard on ALL Sonatas, even the base GL. (Actually, that kind of seat is standard even on the low-buck Accent.) The dual-mode height adjuster on the Sonata makes it possible to adjust the seat cushion exactly as I like it for comfort. To me, this is a HUGE feature and a major advantage of the Sonata over the Accord. For a company (Honda) that is supposedly so great about ergonomics, the control layout and lack of seat adjustments on the Accord don't say much to me about Honda's superiority here, and in fact I see Hyundai being superior in that area. That is a major reason I bought an Elantra in '00 instead of a Civic.

I wasn't complaining about the durability of the Accord's fabric; for all I know it will wear like iron. But you commented on the look of the Sonata's fabric; I was noting that the Accord's is no better and IMO actually looks worse.

I've driven both the Accord and Mazda6 and to me the Mazda6 has the superior ride on the highway, as bumps are more muted than on the Accord. I also found the Sonata much superior to the Accord in this area. What was your impression of the Accord vs. Sonata here? This is also a biggie for me because I drive on pot-holed roads in the Midwest, so smooth ride is more important than the ability to carve mountain canyon roads. But you are right--if I don't like the Accord's ride, I don't have to buy one. And I won't.

Re warranty, personally I think the fact that the Sonata's bumper-to-bumper warranty is 67% longer than that of the Accord (and the powertrain warranty more than three times longer) is significant. We know that Accords do fail sometimes. I think you know why there is a mileage limit on Hyundai's warranty--an unlimited mileage warranty would be very expensive to support. Re extended warranties on the Accord--why would you want to buy one? The best warranty is the one you don't need, right? And Honda stands behind their products if (or when) there is a problem, right? But interestingly, Honda does sell extended warranties for the Accord. But then, so does Hyundai for its cars--so people who want a 10/100 bumper-to-bumper, transferrable warranty can have that. How long is the Honda extended warranty? Is it 10 years? I had this idea it was only 7 years.

ctalk · July 2005

My point is that the sonata should not be at best a slight improvement over its current competition. Because it is a supposedly next generation car that is slated to go against the upcoming redesigns from Toyota and Honda, it should have been lightyears ahead of the current Camry and Accord. The sonata should not have to compare itself to 3 year old designs. Comparing the new sonata to the current accord should have been like comparing the 04 TL to the 03 TL. In such a saturated market the sonata needs "xenon lights, 5 speed auto tranny with shiftronic for the V4, enhance design cues, horsepower increases, and their unique suspension system add on to make it mimic its handling close to a rear wheel drive car" NOW. As for the 07 camry lacking sport appeal, yes the current camry's SE trim failed spectacularly. However, knowing Toyota's track record I highly doubt it will make the same mistake twice.

lmacmil · July 2005

Sonata vs Accord and occasionally some of the other contenders

backy · July 2005

I think "Accord, Camry, Sonata--and All the Rest" might be more apt. I think that's the way the market stacks up right now, at least until the Mazda6 and Altima are redesigned.

gmctruck · July 2005

I test drove both 4cyl and 6cyl Camry's. I was impressed with how much power the 4cyl had, but it was very noisy under hard acceleration. The 6cyl had a hesitation problem that has been a common complaint on the Toyota boards. I just didn't see what the big deal was with the Camry's that people seem to rave about. I was more impressed with the Sonata and liked it better than Camry. Since you are a previous Camry owner, you are more partial to the Camry and that's great. I did not find the Sonata to be "Boaty" at all. No car manufacturer can build a car that will please everyone. What one person hates, another person loves. So the "Best" car out there is the one that meets your needs and personal tastes which may be different than others. If the only cars made today were Pinto's, Vega's, and Gremlin's, we would all be up the creek. Even today's most modest cars have come a long way from decades past. Enjoy the ride! Whatever ride you choose to be in..... :shades:

alpha01 · July 2005

Please note that no passenger vehicle sold in the US is powered by a "V4". V is used to describe engines whose cylinders are configured in two banks each at a 30 or 45 degree angle to the crankshaft, with 60 or 90 degrees between each other (typically). The 4 cylinders in todays family cars, with the exception of Subaru, are inline engines, with one bank of cylinders.

"As for the 07 camry lacking sport appeal, yes the current camry's SE trim failed spectacularly." How is that the case? It posts better objective numbers than Accord EX V6s, especially braking. Im just not sure in which ways it failed.

~alpha

ctalk · July 2005

I was quoting choe13 (about the V4) those aren't my own words.

The Camry SE V6 is only better then the EX V6 in braking performance. Many Sites (Edmunds, Car and Driver, Motortrend) have praised the Accord for having excellent steering and suspension (for having the most 'BMW like ride'). The SE V6 has only been praised for its quite cabin ride, powerful V6 and braking performance and has actually been criticized for having a not very entertaining drive. I admit the Accord is also not very entertaining to drive but is still more fun to drive then Camry (Even on its SE model). The Camry SE V6 should not be comparable to the Accord EX V6, it should be comparable to the Mazda 6. What i find sad is the EX V6 has a more entertaining drive (tighter suspension, better steering) then the SE V6 even when it is not a sport model. I find that the SE trim is more about cosmetics than actual performance.

tenpin288 · July 2005

For those that want to read the article spinzero mentioned, here is the link:

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=106434/pageId=64745

All I can say is--WOW! I sure didn't expect to see a result like that so soon!

I know there will be some sour grapes about how this comparo was unfair because both the Accord and Camry were 2005 4cyl models vs a 2006 Sonata V6 GLS model, but remember the premise--the best equipped version of that model for a sticker of $22,000. It can't get more fair than that. The content and value equation are heavily in Hyundai's favor with a car that not only competes, but outperforms on a dollar for dollar basis. Go Hyundai!

spinzero · July 2005

Well said about the price point.

Plus, the new lambda 3.3 is no worse than camry V6, and not much behind the Honda VTEC 3.0. Even if it was a comparo among V6 models, I'm sure Hyundai would have done admirably, probably taking the second place behinf Accord.

ctalk · July 2005

Hyundai definitely has more bang for the buck, but if they were to put it against the EX V6 i have a feeling Hyundai may not be in first.

I may have found a mistake, under the Specifications and Performance it says the Sonata V6 goes from 0-60 in 9.5 seconds and the Accord inline 4 in 8.2. That cant be true. But if you read about the Sonata edmunds says it goes from 0-60 in 8.2, they must have switched the numbers around :confuse: .

danf1 · July 2005

That is definitely an error. In the individual write ups the Sonata was 8.2, the Accord 9.5 and the Camry was 10.3 seconds.

ctalk · July 2005

What i also find odd is Edmunds rated the EX V6 0-60 at 7.5 and Sonata's 8.2. But Car and Driver tested both and came out with equal scores...

choe13 · July 2005

Edmunds, car and driver, autoweek, etc. 06 theoretically should come out 1st place in every comparison

I was actually disappointed that it didn't battle the V6 camry and accord, because HONESTLY it would have still won. Try to do the scores yourself, and you will see hyundai would still win. It is incredible also that even the V6 of hyundais is cheaper than the 4 cylender of either Camry or Accord. And while not only being outpriced those cars are being outdesigned and outclassed, its a serious no brainer which car a rational consumer would pick.

Edmunds did a great job, and they always come out first for these kind of things. We should see what other car mags have to say, but Edmunds seriously hit the buttons talking about overall design, materials, even talking about little stiching to prove quality.

Hyundai needs to forget about "it" needs to do something to uprgrade for later so lets wait bs, and add a 5 speed auto onto their 4 cylinder soon, to make their assault on the accord and camry that much more complete.

ctalk · July 2005

I am also disappointed that they did not put it against the V6 equipped Accord and Camry to but they had to be fair and compare similarly priced cars. If the EX V6 were to battle against the LX Sonata the Accord would have definetly won. The Accord EX V6 is equal to the Sonata in all features (except for the Automatic Stability Control) and out performs the Sonata in handling. But there are also some features Sonata does not have the the Accord has like Dual-Zone Automatic Climate Control and Power Passenger Seat.

Even with the inline 4 the Accord has better overall handling even edmunds agrees "We all agreed that both on the road and at the track, the Accord felt the sportiest, but the Sonata wasn't far behind." Makes you wonder how the V6 Accord would do against the V6 Sonata. If you look at Editors Evaluation with the inline 4 the Accord is first in transmission, braking, suspension, steering and is pretty damn close in engine performance. Where the Accord falls short is feature content to Sonata.

The Sonata is a great vehicle but is not the best sedan in the market. I admit the Sonata has more bang for the buck than the Accord and Camry but the Sonata should have been able to beat the LX-G in not only # features but handling. The Accord's 3 year old design still has many advantages over the Sonata. If it wants to be named 'best family sedan' it should be first in every category of editor's evaluations (especially against an inline 4.)

spinzero · July 2005

Even with the inline 4 the Accord has better overall handling

No, you got it backward. For FWD cars with transverse mounted engines and 6:4 weight distribution, having a bigger engine makes the car nose-heavy, which negatively affects the handling. (drive Mazda6 i and s and tell me which one handles better) I don't see any reason to expect V6 Accord to handle better than an I4 equiped one, with the possible exception of the V6 EX manual coupe which seems to get some suspension revision.

I do agree that Accord V6 would probably win over the Sonata V6 for the other reasons you mentioned though. But again, for the price differential, it better too. It's just like some people saying VW Jetta's so much better than the Japanese competitors "in its class" such as Corolla and Civic. Yeah sure, in its class where it costs 20% more than all of the competition. To me, that's a moot point since nobody cross-shops cars based on the arbitrary class distinction that magazines come up with.

alpha01 · July 2005

Wow, biased much?

Not for anything, but at Hyundais extremely well executed consumer comparison event in Philly, the stability controlled Sonata LX was much easier to manuever through the pylons than was the Accord EX V6, which slipped and slid around the cones with notable fishtailing. I know I'm not a pro, and maybe for the pros the Accord's slip angles are better-- but for most folks, the Sonata was reassuring.

Ctalk, one thing you should consider is that its universally stated that the Accord EX 4 is a BETTER handler than the EX V6, on account of more neutral weight balance (less over the nose reduces front end plow). The V6 DOESNT improve the Accords handling. Now, given that, the same goes for the FWD Sonata, whose V6 outweighs the 4. I wonder how much better a handler, if at all, the Accord EX 4 would be if the Sonata were tested in its version offering a better weight balance????????

Overall, I thought this was one of Edmunds most impressive comparison tests, aside from their terrible Acceleration numbers. However, I'd look to Car and Driver's Street Start and Passing tests, which seem to be more consistent. Even Consumer Reports has published 0-60 figures (for the Camry and Accord I4s) that are 6 and 5 tenths quicker than what Edmunds.com showed, for example (Putting the Camry at 9.7 seconds and Accord at 9 flat). Kinda makes me wonder exactly how Edmunds.com does their acceleration testing? Maybe they dont use math to neutralize for effects of the enviornment.

Should also be interesting in 7 months from now when the totally redesigned Camry debuts, and the Accord receives some major upgrades.

~alpha

scott30 · July 2005

I can see your perspective, and I would also suggest that a large proportion of consumers make their car purchase decisions based on getting the most value for each dollar. In this respect, the Sonata clearly excels.

But consider this. The evaluation system used by Edmunds includes a weighting for each of the different categories considered. Price is weighted 20%. Presumably, this weighting reflects Edmunds' estimate of the relative importance of price to consumers. When Edmunds decided to compare the best version costing less than $22K, they gave the Sonata a distinct advantage in 2 categories worth a total of 40% of the final score:

Features - Since the base price of the Sonata is lower than the Accord and Camry, Edmunds got to go on shopping spree for bells and whistles on the Sonata, leaving the Accord and Camry out of the running.

Performance - Expecting the Accord and Camry to make up for a 75hp deficit is just plain ludicrous

In my opinion, a more fair and unbiased approach would have been to compare equally equipped models (as close as feature availability allows), and let the difference in price to be reflected in the price category alone.

Interestingly, if you ignore the Features and Performance categories of this evaluation, the Personal, Recommended and Evaluation Score categories were really tight between the Accord and Sonata. Which means that in a fair fight, the Sonata would have given the Accord a really good run for its... well... money. It's too bad that Edmunds stacked the cards so heavily in favour of the Sonata that it damaged the credibility of this review. In the end, I guess Edmunds got their point across, but they manipulated their own system to make a tight race look like a landslide.

shado4 · July 2005

WOW indeed!

The Sonata clearly kicked booty, especially considering everything you get for the price.

Rear drum brakes on an Accord? Is that even legal in this day and age? :P

I sincerely believe that the 2006 Sonata is the best car in its class.

alpha01 · July 2005

FWIW, the Camry LE also had rear drum brakes. For that reason, Im really surprised Toyota didnt offer up a Camry SE 4 cylinder, which still would have hit the price point offered more features than the LE, and been able to stop shorter, owing to larger tires and the aforementioned rear disc brakes.

~alpha

tenpin288 · July 2005

I can understand what you are saying, but to pick and choose arbitrary portions of this test and then state that price should be ignored and all the cars should be optioned similarly invites all sorts of data corruption to the comparison.

I am sure that Edmund's has put a lot of thought into the various weightings and percentages allowed for each category. The various algorithms that they would have had to use are surely time-tested and tweaked periodically to improve their results. (Hey, I work in a major university and I see this type of survey/testing all the time).

The method that Edmund's uses is a valid test. If we were to disregard their methodology and just cherry-pick the data points we want, we open ourselves to absurd comparisons, such as a Ford Mustang GT vs a McClaren F1 vs a Ferrari vs a Mazda Miata. I am sure that we could option them to nearly similar equipment levels except for engines, etc, but do we have a valid comparison set? No.

So until Honda and Toyota decide to include the same type of equipment as is found on the Sonata and also lower their prices, this current methodology is as valid as it gets.

backy · July 2005

Quote from Edmunds.com's comparo re the Accord's controls:

Demerits were issued for the stereo's odd controls (we can't count how many times we turned up the fan speed when we meant to pump up the volume)...

Looks like I'm not the only one who thinks the Accord's center-stack controls are more complex than the Sonata's.

I love the subtitle about "Hell freezing over". That's exactly what many people said about Hyundai a couple of years ago--it would be a cold day in that place when a Hyundai was the equal of or--dare we say--superior to a Honda or Toyota. Get your coats--that day is here, folks.

shado4 · July 2005

So until Honda and Toyota decide to include the same type of equipment as is found on the Sonata and also lower their prices, this current methodology is as valid as it gets.

I believe the "Sonata effect" is starting to happen already. From what I understand, the refreshed 2006 Accord will offer stability control (albeit only on the V6-equipped models).

choe13 · July 2005

I'll prove it to you. Now let it be this is edmunds bias evaluations, i think they do consider alot of ourside factors into their scoring. You talk about V6 Accord and its handling, dual climate etc. How much would that increase its percentangae where its price would drag it even further down in percentage???

Hyunda Sonata GLS V6 Honda Accord LX Toyota Camry LE
Personal Rating (10% of score) 75% 89% 50%
Recommended Rating (10% of score) 88% 75% 63%
Evaluation Score (20% of score) 88% 87% 82%
Feature Content (20% of score) 80% 33% 47%
Performance (20% of score) 99% 72% 56%
Price (20% of score) 100% 98% 96%

Total Score 89.7% 74.4% 67.5%
Final Ranking 1

Lets just say V6 accord was into play. And lets leave what the hyundai scores would be and add what Accord could get more. recommended would jump to 90 percent. Features 75 percent(no way it beats hyundai still), performance 100, price 70(generous) . lets add it up . Accord would be 85 percent still compared to 89.7 still by hyundai. You could say lets drop at least 9 percent from hyundais performance because it would comparing to the accord, but then we could say lets drop 5 more percent from the pricing since a 26 grand accord comapred to a 21 grand sonata is almost 5 grand cheaper. It would be a tight comparison, but the price would be the kicker regardless that hyundai would beat the accord.

I would seriously welcome a v6 fully loaded comparison of all three cars and even a 2007 comparison test scores, but the truth is the accord and camry will not lower their prices , actually toyota has said that they will raise the price of all their cars(pretty dumb mistake) which will always hamper the ability for them to edge out the sonata. The sonata will be competitive for a while, unless the camcord drastically change which i doubt they will because they are cheap as heck

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