Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

elroy5 · February 2007

Everybody who drives the M6 (including me) considers it to have more road grip and be more tossable than the larger Accord.

Things are not always as they seem (feel). Some cars have a more sporty feel to them than the Accord, but not many can actually out handle it. That's one of the reasons why it wins so many comparison tests.

lilengineerboy · February 2007

I actually much prefer the 1990-1993 Accord to the 1994-199(6 or 7?) in every way. I have spent a lot of time with both and in terms of driving dynamics, visibility, comfort, etc I prefer the earlier version. The 94-97 felt like a blob.

I looked at the 98-'02 version before a purchase in 1998/9 and I ended up with something that better met my needs/wants.

In 2005 we went to look at the '03-05 style and it felt more elegant than the last 94-02 but still less fun to drive than the 90-93. Again, there was another vehicle that better met our needs.

In the market again, the Accord is the same bland self, the Altima looks nice but buying a French car in its first year is double asking for it, IMO, I don't care for the Camry styling, and new stuff from everyone else will be out next year. Maybe the old car has another year and I'm not so in the market after all.

elroy5 · February 2007

I actually much prefer the 1990-1993 Accord to the 1994-199(6 or 7?) in every way.

The handling was the best ever (90-93). In 94 they had to make the car larger, and heavier, to accomodate the newly available V6 engine. In 92 the Accord was too small for a V6, now it seems to be too large for the I4 IMO.

stevehecht · February 2007

I've brought this same topic up on VwVortex (The Car Lounge) and the consensus there seems to be that slalom speed and road handling capability do not equate. I'm no techie and I don't understand why that is but the example was given as to how a Mini can outperform a Ferrari on the slalom but there's no way it handles better on the road. (The Mini is a lot smaller and more nimble than the Ferrari.) But that still doesn't explain to my satisfaction how/why the Accord outperforms the Mazda6 on the slalom.

elroy5 · February 2007

It's all about spring rates, and suspension geometry. A suspension can be soft (not a lot of feel), but tighten significantly as it is compressed (some more than others). Honda has been making suspensions for Motorcycles for a long time, and have the dampening down to a science. They have to be pretty good at spring rates, to make something as light as a motorcycle ride smooth.

thegraduate · February 2007

Nissan, on the other hand, has redefined the midsize sedan styling envelope, adding an air of elegance and distinction that did not exist before. That's why Altima sales have increased dramatically in the last five years, since the '02 redesign. For example, the frumpy '01 Altima was not even in the top 10 for car sales in the US. As of last year, the '06 Altima has climbed to #4 in domestic car sales.

I would attribute more of the increase to the fact that the car changed size classes (compact to a solid, grown-up midsize), and added a 240 horsepower V6 (something unmatched in 2002), as well as a more powerful 4-cylinder engine. The Altima became a competitor with the big boys, like the Maxima used to be back in the late 90s, early 00s. Now the Maxima takes on the full-size crowd, and the Altima hits the meat of the midsizers. I don't think the styling is particularly dazzling on the Altima, Camry, OR Accord, but since we're talking taillights lately, I'll say I would MUCH rather have the LED brakelamps on the Accord over the mirrored "aftermarket" looking taillamps on Fusion or Altima.

Its personal preference though, neither of us is really "wrong." How's that for being PC?

benderofbows · February 2007

I am also of the opinion that the styling of the current Accord will age better than the syling of new Altima sedan.

Remember back a few years ago when those "black-out" or "smoke lense" head light and tail light covers were very popular as aftermarket add-ons? You don't see many of those anymore, that trend was pretty much replaced by xenon or HID head lamps and the new clear, mirrored Euro-syle "Altezza" tail lights as the more popular aftermarket visual enhancements.

Will the new lights still be as trendy and fashionable in 5 or 10 years? Or will they look very dated, like the black-out covers look now?

Notice that it looks like Nissan will use different tail lights on the upcoming Altima Coupe? I like these tail lights much better.

mf15 · February 2007

The other main reason Altima sales where high is the 1500 rebate that you could get for many years,which resulted in the final price about 1500 below invoice. My son has an 05
Se V6 which he got for about 22000. Nisson has announced that it will not try and sell cars with heavy rebates, but the 07 Max now has a 1500 rebate. When all the 06 altimas are gone watch 07 altima sales if they drop then the rebates might start. THe 07 Altima priceing for the V6's is quite high when you start adding options, perhaps way too high. My Jeep lease is up in August, and I might want an 07 Altima but now might have to wait for the 08 Accord. Old Mike

neteng101 · February 2007

The V6 Altima is so expensive that I could see more people just opting for a Maxima at that point. And now a Sentra looks like a half Altima, which I think just waters down the Altima lineup some. The tails on the Altima are not to my taste but still a billion times better than the ones of the Fusion IMO.

Nissan styling doesn't seem to last the test of time... the older Altimas look bleh now. The initial G35 and G35 coupe looks just as bland nowadays. I think the Altima coupe's lines are going to grow old faster than the sedan.

The Accord coupes need a big bold step forward though - which seems to be what Honda is doing for the next model. The current Accord sedans are much better looking that the coupes to me. Though I wouldn't complain if Honda ditches the Accord coupe totally and brought the Prelude back.

One of the reasons I never looked at the new Altima though is the CVT only now... curious to hear what people think of this CVT. I think Nissan probably has one of the best CVTs out there now, but still, I like the feel of gear changes and engines revving up.

lilengineerboy · February 2007

One of the reasons I never looked at the new Altima though is the CVT only now... curious to hear what people think of this CVT. I think Nissan probably has one of the best CVTs out there now, but still, I like the feel of gear changes and engines revving up.

Actually the base transmission is a wonderful 6 speed manual. Thats the main reason this car gets to stay on the list and why I don't see it as a direct competitor to the Maxima which is Slushie only (and generally too big for me). We will see if I wait another year or not.

captain2 · February 2007

well, it may be that the tested Accord had neither stability or traction control, I believe it not even available on the lower trims lines. But, that said, the Accord is not (nor never has been) a slouch in the handling dept.. Yes, softness (ride) generally equates to sloppier handling and hardness something a little better, but there is more to it than that. The American buyer has shown a history to prefer the former to the latter.

elroy5 · February 2007

The high Camry sales tell me MOST people want the "Smooth Ride" above all else. I am willing to give up a little smoothness, for some stability, handling, and feel for the road. The Accord is a pretty good combination, for me at least. Everyone wants something different.

stevehecht · February 2007

Man, those two new coupes look alike from that angle. As they stand now I like the Accord more because: 1) the shape of the side window; 2) the style of the side windows with the chrome edging; 3) the less bulbous more muscular side panels; 4) tail lights; 5) larger size and shape of the rear window. Last time I looked I still had a problem with the horizontal chrome fascia of the lower front grille. I hope that gets modified.

stevehecht · February 2007

Good answer! I hope you don't mind if I use this information on TCL. One fellow over there called the V6 suspension "flaccid" but you've explained why a suspension can be (relatively) forgiving and also quite efficient in the slalom.

lilengineerboy · February 2007

Luckily most of those needs can be met in the aftermarket. Shocks with firmer valving, slightly more taught anti-sway bars and replacing selected rubber bushings with graphite impregnated poly bushings did a lot to wake up the car.
I think for most people that would be about a $700 investment but would do a lot to make the car actually fun (not changing the springs or ride height makes for a good highway ride and acceptable in winter weather).
My problem is its hard for me to justify buying something brand new and then spending additional money to make changes to it. German manufacturers typically offer a sport suspension package bundled with tires and wheels for about $1000. I think this would do a lot for their performance and also how they are perceived.

stevehecht · February 2007

Don't forget about also going to high performance summer tires to replace the stock all-season grand touring Michelins. Also, Honda does offer a sport suspension for around $700, as I'm sure you know, but I guess that's aftermarket.

elroy5 · February 2007

I think the V6 6speed comes with the factory "Sport Suspension", or something close to it.

lilengineerboy · February 2007

I wouldn't hold my breath for a contemporary mainstream Honda to have a sporting suspension out of the box. They have to appeal to too many people and I am a very small market. Also, at that point, I think spending 30k and not getting something exactly what I want would frustrate me even more.
That said, I drove a WRX with the STi aftermarket suspension package (shocks/springs/bars) and I found it a little to stiff to cope with the roads around here. Driving these roads makes me understand how the domestic cars of yore got that way.

m1miata · February 2007

Well actually that would be the VW company, which originated the style used by Nissan. I really like the Accord Coupe style. And yes, the Altima is a good knock-off of a Euro style.
-Loren

m1miata · February 2007

Wishbone suspension doesn't hurt too!
-Loren

captain2 · February 2007

even though I live in a part of the country that I could use a summer tire year around - and there is no doubt that a good 'sticky' tire can improve a lot of things, you must be careful:
if that tire comes with an increase in either total wheel/tire weight or diameter, handling and/or braking could actually be compromised. Recommend sticking with factory wheels and possibly even a 'plus 0' tire sizing - meaning widen the tire (the 1st number) but decrease aspect ratio (the 2nd number) in the same proportion - all if wheel well clearances allows. Be careful to maintain total tire/wheel circumference otherwise your speedo, odo and even acceleration and FE can suffer. A good tire store should be able to fit a good set of 'summers' taking all this in account even allowing for an increase in wheel diameter and width. As a rule, the lower the aspect ratio the worse the ride. While we've all had our share of crappola OE tires, keep in mind that your tire and wheel sizes are part of an engineered system designed for your particular car although that doesn't mean that improvements can't be made. These cars are NOT after all 'sports sedans' by almost any definition - there is only so much you can do with all that front weight bias.
A good performance 'summer' tire, BTW, can easily cost twice as much and last maybe half as long. This purchase of a set of tires needs to reasearched and considered as much as you did for the car itself! Such is the price of pleasures.

neteng101 · February 2007

A Honda hallmark - the double wishbone setup in the Accord. They should have kept it for the Civic too. It isn't cheap though, thus almost everyone else prefers using MacPherson struts up front. One of the latest applications of the double wishbone setup - the upcoming Audi R8 supercar! :shades:

captain2 · February 2007

the Maxima may prove to be the 07 Altima's stiffest competition for those V6 shoppers. Higher standard 'bling' level and street prices in the mid/higher 20's. The Altima can crack 30 big ones pretty easily. The Maxima is not that much larger.
I look for the Altima 2.5 to be immensely popular, perhaps even supplanting the Impala in third place in total sales and right behind you know who.

m1miata · February 2007

Yeah, I know all the rest seem to use a basic setup with MacPherson strut. Camry and Corolla have those struts on all corners. Pretty expensive to repair. Loved the wishbones on the Miata. Great handling.

I test drove a base Aura, then a week later, the Accord. I liked the Accord. Will have to test the Aura XR down the same road again and see if I have a change of heart. It seemed like the Aura was OK, but the Honda a better overall feel. And a very fine V6, and transmission, I may add.
-Loren

m1miata · February 2007

Altima to me was not all that quiet on the road, the CVT feel I did not care for, and steering seems kinda light for a performance leaning sedan. The push button thing is kinda fun, but perhaps something else to go wrong. The bling on the thing seems to be growing in size. Still OK, but closer to overdoing the lens thing. We don't need the headlamps to wrap all the way to the tail lights, which both as closing in on.
-Loren

captain2 · February 2007

there will be a number of folks that prefer the traditional revup-shift/revup-shift and control of even the usual automatic. On the other side of the coin these new 5 speed+ autos in many of these cars are also getting harder to live with. May be a price (and choice) of progress?

alan_s · February 2007

When Nissan discovered the oil consumption problem surfacing on some early 2006 2.5 liter engines, they immediately stopped shipping the 2.5 liters and instructed their dealers not to sell any more 4 cylinder units until Nissan could find a fix. Not all dealers complied, but this shows great responsibility on Nissan's part. Nissan took a sales and perception hit for this, but instead of stonewalling, they wanted to arrest the problem and fix the defective units already sold. This is unlike Toyota who continue to sell millions of Camrys and other models with transmission problems and deny they exist. Nissan also make their TSB's available free of charge on their website, so owners can be aware of any problems and their remedies. I think this is a huge plus.
Having had a 2006 Altima 3.5SL for 10 months now, I am very impressed with the quality of the vehicle.
I'm not sure about the 2007 Altima though. It seems quite a bit smaller than my 2006, especially in the back, and like you, I'm not convinced of the CVT yet, but it may be a better alternative than Camry's problematic 6 speed.

captain2 · February 2007

hey Alan - glad you have had good luck with your 3.5, my wife's 3.5 just cracked 80k, never been in the shop and gets 26 mpg all year long. Still runs REAL strong, of course. She is now 'hinting' (I'm sure you know how wives do those kinda things

) on a new one - and I will likely end up with the CVT (in a 3.5) with some reservation.

neteng101 · February 2007

All the Accord autobox really needs is a SportShift option IMO - 5 cogs are good enough. The 6-speed autoboxes may get you an extra 1-2 mpg on the highway, and seems to be a lot more problematic.

alan_s · February 2007

Nice to hear from you Captain! I'm going to take a Nissan CVT for a drive one of these days. Either the Max or the new Altima 3.5. Perhaps it will drive better than than we think. I drove a Ford Five Hundred with the CVT a few weeks ago. The engine was thrashy and gutless, but the CVT seemed very unintrusive and not as "motorboatish" as I would have imagined. I was almost impressed with the transmission.
A CVT may be a better solution that a perpetually shifting and confused multi-speed auto. Can you imagine the Lexus LS460 with it's 8 speed? No thanks. Perhaps Nissan is on to a good thing after all.

lilengineerboy · February 2007

Its interesting that people don't care for the CVT, in theory it should be more efficient than any of the slush-boxes because it can hold the engine at any RPM it wants, so it can hold it at peak torque, peak horsepower, or peak efficiency. Its like having infinite gears so the engine can always be in its powerband.
People tease me for being "old school" and wanting a true manual transmission but when technology comes along to make the slushbox a little more effective, people don't like it. I don't get it.

captain2 · February 2007

while Honda did have some tranny failure problems a few years back, I've never heard of any drivability complaints similar to those you hear about in pretty much all of the cars in this group, 5 or 6 speed. The Camry complaints are almost getting legendary. The jury is still out on the CVTs regardless of who makes it. I would expect the new Accord to also have an updated 6 speed such is the pressure of a few extra mpg. This may NOT be good.

captain2 · February 2007

I think you are answering your own question - everything seems to be what 'IT' does as opposed to what necessarily you want IT to do.

alan_s · February 2007

Agreed, Honda should resist this stupid cog-war and keep the 5-speed they have. The 5-speed in our Pilot is perfect.
Sometimes less IS more.

lilengineerboy · February 2007

Yeah, thats why I buy a stick...it does what I want it to do. I've logged about three quaters of a million miles on 3 cars (all were used when I got them) and never needed to replace a manual transmission. So far, the only auto box that outlived the car was the TH350 in a 70s Nova.
If you have a slushbox, something is thinking for you, thats why people get it, so they dont have to pay as much attention when they drive. I don't get what the big deal is with the CVT being more efficient about it.

captain2 · February 2007

you may be interested to know that the CVT is leaving the 500 3.5, supplanted by the rough shifting (and reticent) 6 speed, the model I drove a couple of years back. Perhaps too much HP/torque for that particular CVT?

elroy5 · February 2007

Its interesting that people don't care for the CVT, in theory it should be more efficient than any of the slush-boxes because it can hold the engine at any RPM it wants, so it can hold it at peak torque, peak horsepower, or peak efficiency.

Is peak torque, peak horsepower, and peak efficiency all the same RPM? (not likely) At least I know what my traditional automatic will do when I hit the gas. The CVT would have to be consistent, for me to trust it to give me the power when I want it. Don't think it could win that trust with just a test drive.

captain2 · February 2007

don't assume that just because you have a clutch that you also have more control - read the road test of the M5 (of all things) in the recent C&D. The lawyers and the 'tree huggers' have yet to be heard from!

neteng101 · February 2007

Probably the best form of gearbox today might be a DSG or Ferrari semi-auto... basically a manual transmission that's shifted faster than anyone of us could manage.

A Honda automatic seems to be a weird beast - its not your typical slushbox and neither is it an automatically shifted manual. I can't seen to find much more information about it though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hondamatic

alan_s · February 2007

Yes, apparently the new joint effort Ford/GM 6-speed isn't that great. Seems to be following a trend doesn't it? I really don't see what was so wrong with the excellent and proven 4-speed autos the manufacturers seem to be so keen on dumping. The modern engines have more than enough power and torque which actually reduces the need for more gear ratios. Perhaps it is the auto mags who trash every car they test that doesn't have a brand-new high-tech transmission.
I'd rather have a smooth-shifting 4 or 5 speed than an up-to-the-minute hyper-intelligent Super-Cray powered multi-speed Hi-IQ tranny that is a technological showpiece and looks great on paper and does everything except change gears smoothly and appropriately. From a practical perspective, how can a car possibly drive smoothly or be perceived as functioning properly when the transmission is perpetually trying to recalculate and flip ratios?
Remember Cadillac's cellular-based multi-sensored, micro-processor controlled multi-pump orthopedic seat they came out with a few years ago? Just one small problem - it wasn't as comfortable as a regular seat.
This is all techno overkill with diminishing practical returns.

explorerx4 · February 2007

using both feet and both arms at the same time, that can bring a joy an automatic never will. ultimate speed is not required.

neteng101 · February 2007

Until you hit bumper to bumper traffic that goes on for hours... and then, it will be pure torture!

elroy5 · February 2007

A Honda automatic seems to be a weird beast - its not your typical slushbox and neither is it an automatically shifted manual.

The words "Honda", and "typical" don't go together. Honda does things their own way. The Accord is the only manufacturer using a SOHC V6, when most others have DOHC V6 engines. These SOHC engines seem to be very competitive though.

elroy5 · February 2007

I really don't see what was so wrong with the excellent and proven 4-speed autos the manufacturers seem to be so keen on dumping.

It's more about fuel economy, than power. Car shoppers are not really looking at how many gears the tranny has, but what the fuel mileage is.

alan_s · February 2007

I understand that, but I can't see how a transmission that is constantly changing engine speeds (and slip-revving the engines like Toyota do) can possibly be more efficient and economical. To obtain greater fuel economy, the objective is to get into the highest gear as soon as possible but should not be at the expense of significant driveabiity.
IMHO a transmission with more than 5 speeds in a quest for greater fuel economy is fundamentally a flawed concept. Transmissions with more than 5 speeds are an attempt to engineer a conventional stepped ratio transmission to achieve the functionality of a CVT. If more ratios are deemed necessary, then a CVT starts making sense, so why not invest the R&D into perfecting a CVT instead. A CVT could be software programmed to behave like a CVT or like a stepped 4 or 5 or 6 speed to satisfy any driver's preferred mode of operation.
I'm still not quite 100% convinced yet, but I keep thinking that Nissan is on the right track here...

lilengineerboy · February 2007

Probably the best form of gearbox today might be a DSG or Ferrari semi-auto... basically a manual transmission that's shifted faster than anyone of us could manage.

And its impossible to drive in non-racing situations, its shifts are too rough and violent. Might be okay for F1 racing, but not so good for driving to the country club. Driven by mortals, the manual still seems to be a better choice.

A Honda automatic seems to be a weird beast - its not your typical slushbox and neither is it an automatically shifted manual. I can't seen to find much more information about it though.

The Hondamatic was a 2 speed semi-automatic from the late 70s and early 80s, its not quite what is being discussed here.

lilengineerboy · February 2007

The goal isn't to be in the highest gear, the goal is to get the engine at peak efficiency. A CVT can vary the ratios allowing the engine to make peak power under acceleration and then switch to peak effienciency to maintain speed.

ELROY: there was an OR in that statement, although I would think it could hold the motor at the rpm where the hp curve and the torque curve cross if it wanted to.

joecarnut · February 2007

This is in regards to an engine with a CVT.

Could that cause carbon and also cause emmision problems down the line?

I was told by a friend this might be an issue using CVT transmissions

explorerx4 · February 2007

i never said it was perfect, just more satisfying most of the time than the other alternatives.

neteng101 · February 2007

If only insurance on 2nd cars didn't cost so much.

I miss driving a manual and yet I'm set in my ways for an auto daily.

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