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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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Comments

  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    have a friend just bought an 06 SEL (Vulcan, I think) off the rental lots for $11k with 18k on the odo. Talk about cheapening a name and then wondering why many other things that have a blue oval on them have the same problem!
  • benderofbowsbenderofbows Member Posts: 542
    Good article... But the real mistake was in the first place, letting the old Taurus waste away into a "$19.95 rental car." The Fusion is doing well without the Taurus name, but I suppose you are right, and the negative connotations associated with the Taurus name will be overlooked by many Ford fans if it is put on the Five Hundred (not a good name to begin with, they should have done better on that one).
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    maybe the Ford marketing folks figured that they 'screwed the pooch' and otherwise damaged the 500 name (which does have some historical significance) simply because the car was not available with a competitive drivetrain. Were they able to keep that CVT along with the 260hp - and done it 3 years ago - don't think they would be renaming it today.
  • readerreaderreaderreader Member Posts: 253
    There doesn't seem to be a "full-sized" discussion:

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  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,256
    you've been posting some great pictures! you must have some juice to be snapping photos while bob lutz is one of the few people on the display with the car. thanks again. :)
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    There doesn't seem to be a "full-sized" discussion:

    Try this one...

    Large Sedan under $30,000

    Hopefully the base G8 won't cross the $30K line.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,256
    i've been seeing what seems to be some really good published in the local newspaper deals on toyota camry hybrids. actually the ads have prices for prius, camry, and highlander hybrids.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • readerreaderreaderreader Member Posts: 253
    Those were not my pictures. I found them at Autoblog.com.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Few items will be scratched on the production version, according to GM, which will ship next year (2008).
  • swhitehornswhitehorn Member Posts: 14
    You couldn't be more wrong. Nissan outsells Honda in almost every country except the USA. Nissan has a market capitization of $100.35 billion as of Feb 7, 2007. This compares to Honda's market capitilaztion of $70.5 billion thru the same day. Nissan is second only to Toyota in auto manufacturer's market capitalization worldwide. Toyota has over $350 billion! Keep in mind that Honda also sells small engines of all types and jet engines, yet still has 30% less market value than Nissan. Market capitalization is the single most important indicator of a company's accumulated wealth. General Motors, for instance has under $20 billion of market capitalization, even though it is far and away the largest US auto manufacturer. Needless to say, NO ONE will catch Toyota in my lifetime, at least. One other item to note is that Nissan has the most efficient manufacturing plants of any auto manufacturer, including Toyota. Nissan cars require less manhours to produce, thus helping their profit margins and quality thru automation. Carlos Ghosn has done amazing things with Nissan in the last 10 years.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,256
    thanks for being truthful. still like the pictures!
    is that a wierd shift pattern?
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    This supports Nissan > Honda

    World market share:

    1 General Motors
    2 Toyota Motor Corp.
    3 Ford Motor Co.
    4 Volkswagen AG
    5 DaimlerChrysler AG
    6 Hyundai-Kia Group
    7 Nissan Motor Co.
    8 PSA/Peugeot-Citroen SA
    9 Honda Motor Co.
    10 Renault SA
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    This is true. Honda is only a 'premium' auto builder in NA. Everywhere else in the world it's an engine-making company.

    In Europe it's not in the top 10. It has done a wonderful job of providing what the NA public wants though so in this prestigeous market it appears that Honda is a leader in the world.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    I come across folks all the time not knowing really where Honda ranks in the car world. They sure are surprised though when they hear Nissan dominates Honda outside the U.S. market.. Even in Japan, Nissan dominates Honda.. :surprise:
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    "The Fusion is not a car that is exclusive or rare, so please don't go there.

    Also, if the Fusion was selling more than the Accord/Camry, you would have been gloating the success. "

    Actually, no I would not gloat about sales of 500,000 Fusions.. I feel Ford is making the right move in the right direction by limiting its production of Fusions/Milan/MKZ. The Hermi plant last I read was only capable of producing 300,000 vehicles. Keep production numbers low, quality high. Its going to be painful for about 3 more years for Ford but in the end consumers will notice.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    "The Taurus is being resurrected...or rather, rebadged. The current Ford Five Hundred will be rebadged as the Taurus for 2008. Also, the Mercury Montego becomes the Sable, and the Freestyle? Taurus X. I know these are full-sizers, but they are reviving the nameplates of cars that once competed with the Accord and Camry for number 1, and was successful for years. "

    Please link me to where you read this??? :confuse:
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    As much as people bash the Taurus/Sable you better check again. These are actually very reliable vehicles. Yes, "unrefined" by some standards but very good, solid transportation. And, you can get one loaded for under $20,000.. :shades: Now for the normal comments of "who wants one? who would own one?.. yada, yada, yada.. :sick: But, look at the sales numbers and once again you would be surprised. Yes, a good lot do go to rental fleets, but there are sales to private parties also. And, where do you think they go after rentals? Private sales... ;)
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    "Ford's new products are improvements, but still seem quite weak. Only Mustang and F-150 are hits plus mild success of the Fusion. "

    Wrong again.. the Fusion outsold the Mustang in January by over 1,500 units.
    :surprise:
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Actually, this was on the news on morning drive-time radio yesterday. It has been mentioned in a few other places, I just can't think of them. It's been all over TV and Radio (and Internet) for a few days, I figured who keeps up with news somewhat knew by now.

    image

    I read it first on The Hollywood Extra, a blog site devoted to new car news.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    It's all over the news that the 500 and Montego are now the Taurus and Sable as the next MY.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    A sales success in one market is not in others. Would you expect a sports car to sell at similar rates to a midsize sedan? Of course not. Sports cars are generally impractical, and do not appeal to as large a number of people as do midsize sedans.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    "have a friend just bought an 06 SEL (Vulcan, I think) off the rental lots for $11k with 18k on the odo. Talk about cheapening a name and then wondering why many other things that have a blue oval on them have the same problem! "

    This makes no sense and once again spreads misinformation and rumors. People wonder why I defend Ford.

    1. There are no Vulcan 3.0 in Fusions.
    2. This is way, way below wholesale.
    3. Must have been a Taurus..

    Nice try.. ;)
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    "A sales success in one market is not in others. Would you expect a sports car to sell at similar rates to a midsize sedan? Of course not. Sports cars are generally impractical, and do not appeal to as large a number of people as do midsize sedans"

    :sick: Excuses...
  • exshomanexshoman Member Posts: 109
    is that a wierd shift pattern?

    No, it's pretty standard to have reverse right & up on a six speed tranny, especially GM. Audi does it left & up (next to 1st). Not sure if anybody has reverse down on a six speed.

    Great to see such a large, powerful car being shown with a stick. Hope it makes it to market with it. Not holding my breath though.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Or buy one as a used, one year old car for what, say $10,999 to $13,999. Tauras ended as a disastor, and the name should have been laid to rest. And that's no bull. :D
    -Loren
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Ah, good ol' Camry, the new Oldsmobile of Toyota. A very comfortable car. For those that like to drive, I would say the Accord and Fusion are actually entertaining.
    -Loren
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Galaxie 500 was a proud car of Ford. The Taurus, Audi look knock off, was a good selling car, and life saver no doubt. The second rendition of same however, as it became a bad knock-off of an Infinity J30 did not go so well.
    -Loren
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Please link me to where you read this???

    Here are two links, but yes, it's pretty widespread news:

    http://www.autoobserver.com/

    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=119496
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Actually, if you will reread captain2's post and the one he answered you'll see it was indeed a Taurus.
  • w9cww9cw Member Posts: 888
    I don't even buy his premise of buying a 2006 Taurus with 18K miles for $11K off the rental lots. Show me where and when, and I'll stand in line to buy one for my daughter. When 2001 and 2002 Taurus' are going for $5,500 to $7,500 with over 75K miles, that's one heck of a deal - if it's real! As boring and as dated as the Taurus was, it would make someone a decent car, especially college-age kids.
  • jaxs1jaxs1 Member Posts: 2,697
    Around $11K is a typical selling price for a 1 year old ex-rental Taurus SE. However, the prior-rental Tauruses typically have about 25-30K miles in less than a year, so one with 18k miles is a better than average deal.
    Check out Hertzcarsales.com and see their fixed priced listings. Other car dealers may list higher prices, but you deal with typical back and forth haggling to get a similar final price. It's better to buy from the car rental place rather than a regular car dealer that sells cars that were prior rentals because the rental places keep the best ones and send the marginal ones out to auction to other dealers.

    You will need to factor in a few other costs to the list price. If the car has near 30K miles, in a short period of time, you will need to spend $400 or more for the 30,000 mile service and within a year, you may need to buy a new set of tires and maybe new brake pads. For another $1400 or so, you can probably get the Ford PremiumCare 100,000 mile $0 deductible warranty at a dealer or a similar plan directly through Hertz.

    Yes, a 1 year old Taurus is great car for a college kid. Insurance rates might be about as low as you are going to get too. They may be unimpressed with it and prefer something more exciting though.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Look up used tauri on carsdirect.com,

    I saw a bunch of them a couple examples:

    $11,994 with 20,424 miles.

    $11,988 with 13,347 miles
  • stevehechtstevehecht Member Posts: 96
    I come across folks all the time not knowing really where Honda ranks in the car world. They sure are surprised though when they hear Nissan dominates Honda outside the U.S. market.

    Yep, you can count me in that group! Sorry about that, I was talking off the top-o-my-hat based on impressions I received from an article I read on some of Nissan's current financial challenges. I'll be more careful next time.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Does this Nissan ranking include the Renault ownership?
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    why so defensive - of course, it is a Taurus for $11k, and the comment made in response to the post about the value of the Taurus name - I didn't say a word about Fusions. My comment had to do with 'cheapening' the Taurus name.
  • 03accordman03accordman Member Posts: 671
    Actually, no I would not gloat about sales of 500,000 Fusions.. I feel Ford is making the right move in the right direction by limiting its production of Fusions/Milan/MKZ. The Hermi plant last I read was only capable of producing 300,000 vehicles. Keep production numbers low, quality high. Its going to be painful for about 3 more years for Ford but in the end consumers will notice.

    Scape, I am pasting your post # 11649, where you are talking about the success of the Fusion with respect to teh Mustang. Clearly, YES, you would gloat if the Fusion sold 500k units, or more than an Accord or a Camry, in fact in that post, you are gloating over the Fusions sales over a Mustang!!!!

    Post 11649: "Wrong again.. the Fusion outsold the Mustang in January by over 1,500 units"
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    it would make someone a decent car, especially college-age kids.
    still under factory warranty as well, and exactly what this car was purchased for. And agree, at $11k a helluva deal and a good example of what happens to resale values when a mfgr. keeps a plant open specifically to feed Hertz etc. Think that something similar will happen with the Sonata as these cars 'mature' and then end up on the used market.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    BUSTED!!!

    Give me a break, the only reason why Ford limiting its production of Fusion/Milan/MKZ is because THAT'S ALL THEY CAN SELL. To produce more than that will only mean one thing and that's FLEET SALE.

    Anyone whom thinks Ford wouldn't produce 500,000 Fusions if the market demand is there needs to get his head out of his you-know-what.

    BTW, it should be interesting to see how many Mustangs went to the rental fleet. Seems to me Hertz has plenty of those and I will be driving one during my Las Vegas trip in April. It'll be the first time I have ever driven a Mustang and I plan on take it to LA and back.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Anyone whom thinks Ford wouldn't produce 500,000 Fusions if the market demand is there needs to get his head out of his you-know-what.
    Actually, I don't think that Ford could finance that kind of production even if they had the market for them regardless of the geographical location of my head. :P They borrow $23 billion for other purposes.
  • neteng101neteng101 Member Posts: 176
    I think Taurus owners are far more likely to buy a rebadged Five Hundred than they are to buy the Fusion. So its worth a shot for Ford.

    But the "Taurus X" OTOH sounds totally dumb.

    And unlike the Fusion, the Five Hundred/Taurus will be built in the USA.
  • neteng101neteng101 Member Posts: 176
    Aren't a lot of Altimas ending up in fleets now though? While Accord fleet sales are like 1% which is way below everyone else. The fleets have to buy something and with both GM and Ford reducing fleet sales, the slack's being taken up by others.
  • neteng101neteng101 Member Posts: 176
    You can get a 2001/2002 Taurus for $4k if you look around and didn't go via a dealer. The problem with buying a rental Taurus for $11k is that you'll take a bit hit when it comes time to sell it... its a great deal if you plan on driving the wheels off the car and there are no major maintenance issues.

    There are things that go wrong in a Taurus when it starts going up in miles though. Regardless of mileage, rental cars get flogged so its always another risk buying one. But insurance will be cheap, and it certainly has enough even go with a Vulcan to be safe for cruising on highways.

    For a college kid - the Taurus is certainly a safer/better alternative than a Caliber/Cobalt/Focus. But they'll probably balk at the looks.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    The fleets have to buy something
    don't know that Nissan deals with them much either, sure have never seen too many in the lots but, in any case, you are absolutely right - they can't all be Sebrings and G6s. And I can't imagine any of the 'Japan 3' doing much of this when they are already selling all they can produce - at a profit - wouldn't make any sense. Even Hyundai is cutting back despite a 'sponsored' effort to get as many Sonatas on the street as possible.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    One of the 'benefits' of fleet sales, within reason, is that when breakeven is reached and fixed costs are covered the more volume that can be generated the more gross profit will be generated.

    It's almost a freebie. The Corolla now in it's 6th year is a prime example.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,601
    I don't like the tan and grey interior trim. Others may think it is great. But I think it will become "dated" rather soon, much like some of the Ford designs of the late '70's--or was it early '80's.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,256
    i forgot it is a 6 speed!
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    the more volume that can be generated the more gross profit will be generated

    That is true assuming you don't have to start throwing huge bundles of cash on the hood to sell them. And of course you run the risk of much lower resale values which has a ripple effect back to new car sales.
  • approximantapproximant Member Posts: 5
    i'd like to go back to the days of the taurus..

    lol, those were the days :blush:
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Hillary is running for President. Perhaps we will relive those days. :D:D:D
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    So here is a question, does it save enough buying a four cylinder, using an example the Honda Accord SE vs. the V6 SE, to really make much of a difference money wise? The best I can figure, considering slight change in insurance and tire cost, along with the gas and loss of interest for the initial money spent to buy the V6, it comes to something like $500 to $600 per year, if gas goes to $3.50 per gallon. I figure 30% driving within town, and 70% on the freeway. So for around a $1.50 per day, is it worth it to own the V6? I was impressed with the i4 engine and the 166HP. Now I did not take it up a grade, or with say three or four people on-board or anything in the trunk, so that makes a difference. Perhaps the V6 is just that much more of a fun factor, I should not worry about the cost involved, which is what, say a cup of coffee or a frozen yogurt? Or am I thinking it would be enough to buy another computer each year, or an LCD TV?

    I must be getting old. Things like the difference between 16" and 17" tire cost I am calculating and wondering about their worth. Largest tire I ever owned is the 15" ones on my PT. Guess I have to go along with the pros saying the 17" tires now are the performance way to go and in the case of the SE V6 Honda, they also add in stability control and some sort of electronic brake force whiz-bang thing.

    Now the 166HP of the i4 is more than my older cars had with a V6. When I think of 244HP out of a V6, I am thinking something as fast as some V8 engines, not all that long ago. I can see how Mustang had to boost the HP in 1999 then again in 2005 up to 300HP. It would be embarrassing to be smoked off the street light by a soccer mom trying to get to school to pick up the kids :P I mean to say 7 second 0-60 with an automatic tranny, ain't exactly slow. I understand the i4 is a 0-60 in 8.6 seconds with an automatic. Yeah, I am thinking an automatic, as I am tired of shifting in this stop and go traffic, and with FWD, it just ain't as good a feeling with the stick as with RWD, so yeap, gonna go slushbox - which have also improved since the good ol' days. Come to think of it, my old '65 289 Mustang probably would lose a race with an i4 Accord today???
    -Loren
This discussion has been closed.