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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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Comments

  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Personally, I have no idea how good a Fusion or Milan will be some three to ten years down the road. Do you? I test drove a used Fusion, with a few mystery noises, and it performed OK. I would not say it was the same ride, nor the engine on par with the Accord i4, but it was not bad. Did not test the V6. Have no idea what the future of Ford will be. A lot goes into making a car buying decision. Stability of the company helps. Some Strange Moves, like renaming a car the Taurus, which has a rental car stigma to it, is not too reassuring. The FiveHundred needed more bling to the styling, and not a name change. And I don't care too much for throne seating. I got that now with the PT Cruiser. Guess I am not a truck man. FiveHundred, based on the Volvo, was a really good deal price wise.
    It is a safe car, and may be reliable as well. You get a Volvo on the cheap. Alas, Ford may be killing Volvo in the process. I hope they are not using gas company advertising on the gas caps like on the Fords now. Oh my!
    -Loren
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    The SE V6 has stability control, and a resale value far higher than the Fusion. In the real world, I would say, if they made a Fusion with the same set of components as the SE Accord V6, it would have to priced some $3 to 4K under the Accord to net the same total cost of ownership. Not going to happen. Take a look at the Intellichoice website.
    -Loren
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Yes, someone mentioned they added traction control to the Fusion to put it in line with the Accord. Truth is, there is NO stability control in the Fusion; traction control only prevents wheelspin from very low speeds. Stability control helps keep you on the road and on the path the driver intends for it to. The AWD Fusion would be a good vehicle for someone who wants a Ford and the benefits of stability control though, I'd think.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Yes, we all know that Honda has had a couple to three major problems with the Accord and Odyssey . So? It is not like every year, for the past three decades, major issues occur. A bad year for a model out of a couple decades is nothing compared to three decades of crap from some other manufacturers we all know of. I think it best you don't go there. ;)
    -Loren
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    The problem with Ford recently is that it has built to a price seeking to undercut the competition which has led to compromises (cheap center stack, lack of stability control, manual seatback adjustment on the Fusion e.g.). What they should be doing instead (and what I believe the new regime has already started) is building the best car they can and then pricing it accordingly (no pun intended).

    Why do several of you praise Honda and Toyota for keeping the Camry and Accord names around for 25+ years yet deride Ford for trying to keep the Taurus name which has been around 20 years and despite the recent rental queen status still has tremendous owner loyalty and name recognition? Five Hundred simply wasn't catching on. I've heard first hand reports of people who heard the Taurus was coming back and can't wait to buy one - yet had never heard of the Five Hundred.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    The Ford Five Hundred didn't really do badly, but it got mediocre sales for a mediocre car. Don't blame the nameplate - Ford has introduced several new models in the last five to ten years that have done well regardless of the name. The Fusion is doing quite alright and it has a new name altogether.

    The new Taurus (In my head I think of it as Taurus, the Sequel) will succeed or fail more on the basis of the merits of the machine instead of the moniker. My $.02. :)
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    People are excited about the return of the Taurus? What! They couldn't give those cars away. The first rendition, which was the knock-off look of an Audi was indeed popular, but the knock-off style of the Infinity J30 never did really get traction. Best recognition it had was one of being a Hertz car. Now in contrast, the Galaxie 500 was pretty popular and had a great history to it.

    The Fairlane 500, in a rear wheel drive car, would be nice. Share the sales floor with the Mustang. Those were the days my friend.
    -Loren
  • jcgablejcgable Member Posts: 30
    I agree with you completely in that I feel that a Fusion has to be about 5000 cheaper than an Accord for me to consider it. Same goes for the new Malibu. However, not everyone, and certainly not Ford and GM, feel that the way. I feel that the Fusion and Malibu are closer to the Sonota than they are to the Accord. At least in my opinion, Hondas are "premium" mainstream cars and I am willing to pay for this "premium" I would also say that VW produces "premium" mainstream cars. I don't place Chevys or Fords in this same category. However, I do think Saturn has the potential to become the equal of Honda and VW. However, Saturn is not quite there yet.

    Have you seen the new Malibu in person? It is gorgeous. I'm not saying it's going to wipe the floor with Accords or Camry's, but it is definitely going to be a big hit. I would also agree with you on any other Ford model (i.e. a focus vs. a civic), but I think the fusion has some great potential as a model and is a worthy buy as long as you get it for 1-2 thousand less than the accord. :D
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    You're underestimating the popularity of the Taurus and Sable with the regular public. Everyone I know who owns or owned one recently liked it. The name won't sell the car but it will get people into the showroom that might not have looked otherwise.

    Go ask 100 people randomly at the mall and they'll all know the Taurus name (and most will remember it fondly) whereas almost nobody will remember a Galaxie 500.
  • neteng101neteng101 Member Posts: 176
    What they should be doing instead (and what I believe the new regime has already started) is building the best car they can and then pricing it accordingly (no pun intended).

    That would be a good thing - but the new product pipeline for cars is pretty empty. There is no totally all-new models planned for production - revised Fusion, revised Five Hundred/Taurus, revised Focus still stuck on the same old platform. All the new regime seems to have come us so far is to change nameplates (but that's merely badge engineering).

    Instead of engineering more sensible yet exciting cars they bet the farm on crossovers like the Edge and Freestyle.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Do you think you can engineer a new platform in 6 months? Ford has already said the 2010 Focus will share a platform with the Euro Focus. Same for the Fusion and Mondeo although it's not clear if that will happen in 2009 or 2010.

    These changes at Ford regarding platform sharing/development did not happen until Mulally took the helm a few months ago. Apparently the previous CEOs allowed Europe and Australia and North America to operate as independent entities. Not any more. But you won't see that for 2-3 more years.

    Ford doesn't need all new platforms (with the exception of a new full size RWD platform) - they just need better product planning and engineering. Put the 3.5L drivetrain in the Fusion with a more expensive center stack, stability control and a few other touch ups and you're there.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    I wouldn't call the 500/Taurus mediocre. It had a relatively advanced drivetrain, underpinnings that borrowed heavily from Volvo, a very solid ride...I think as a 20-something college student you might be a little offset from the target demographic.
    It has great usability, very easy to read displays, very simple controls, and a ride height that affords a better view of the road. Better still, that ride height translates to a higher seat height, meaning easier ingress/egress for older folks that may have issues with their back or reduced mobility of joints.
    As far as it getting renamed the Taurus, middle America likes the Taurus, it always sold in solid volumes, it doesn't have the negative connotation that people on here seem to attach to it.
    What they should've used the Ford 500 name on is a Crown Vic with the police pkg for civilian consumption (it worked with the shamu style Impala SS)
  • neteng101neteng101 Member Posts: 176
    The C1/EUCD platforms are available today... the Focus should already be C1 for 2008, not 2010. The Fusion CD3 should be ditched for new EUCD by 2009, don't bother with revising the current Fusion, full steam ahead on the EUCD Mondeo based one.

    And please let the Euro designers do the styling - the 2008 Focus is a thing of ugly. The new 2007 Mondeo is a thing of beauty. And how about bringing the 5-door to the US?
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Akirby,
    I think some of the frustration is that they market the car before its done and polished. Its the feeling that its 90% there and that is now good enough. I think Ford and GM are changing to better align themselves with the market and consumer expectation, but its frustrating to wait. The Fusion is a great platform, like I said, 90-95% there, and then gets beat up for having something that doesn't feel right that would require very little effort to correct (center stack, NVH,etc).
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    The problem with Ford recently is that it has built to a price seeking to undercut the competition which has led to compromises (cheap center stack, lack of stability control, manual seatback adjustment on the Fusion e.g.). What they should be doing instead (and what I believe the new regime has already started) is building the best car they can and then pricing it accordingly

    But here we have people saying a Ford would have to be $5000 less than Honda for them to consider it...of course, if it actually were $5000 less they would say there must be something wrong with it for them to sell at at that low price.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Something is terribly wrong with Mazda sales.

    6 sales are down, but total units sold by Mazda were up 4% in 2006 and 6% in January.

    I guess you should only consider a Camry. Since they sell 400,000 of them a year without big discounts, it must be the best car for everyone. Honda is no where near those sales levels, so it must not be as good a car as the Camry.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Not in California. And as California goes, so goes the nation. Next I will hear they should bring back the Pinto.
    -Loren
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    The SE V6 has stability control

    I was not aware of that, not having really shopped for a V6. I was only responding to the post where someone said the Fusion was not comparable because it lacked traction control.

    In the 4 cyl models the Fusion SE and Accord SE and Mazda 6 value are about as close as you can get in equipment levels, IMO. As I pointed out I did in fact pay $3300 than I believe an Accord would have gone for when I bought my Mazda6. Not that the price was the primary reason for my choice...it was just a bonus that such good deals were availble on the car I liked the best :) .
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    No where did I mention Mazda6 having to be the leading selling car. But, and it is the big but, cars which do not sell well when new, often are not easy to sell later on. And I may also add, it says something about the orginal price, if they can knock off $5K to sell. Or should I say, if they HAVE to knock off thousands to sell the car. Yes, the Mazda3 is selling, but we are talking mid-size cars.
    -Loren
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    "GM is resorting to Australia and Europe for cars now... instead of American engineering, we are getting Holdens and Opels."

    Honda and Toyota do the same thing. Ever heard of the TSX, Yaris or Fit? They bring over cars from other markets to save money just like GM is doing now. Thats what global companies do. BTW, the Astra and G8 are likely to be made in America within the next few years.

    Toyota and Honda's increased commitment to the US is great, but it doesnt make them equal to what the Big 2.5 do in terms of employment and investment. Most Toyota ads bragging about their employment levels here include dealers which isnt fair since those are not Toyota employees. If you want to get into indirect employment and dealership employment the US automakers would be able to inflate their employment stats just like Toyota.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    " I would say the XR is worth $24K or under, and the XE under $21K. "

    What are you talking about? What about options? You keep saying the Aura should be priced thousands less than it is but you dont account for options. If you think an XR with moonroof, leather, heated seats, remote start, CD changer, Xm radio, 240W sound system, etc. should be under $24k than you arent being realistic. Why would it cost under $24k when a camry SE with a few options will run you close to 30 grand? A loaded Aura is only about $27k and thats only if you get the panoramic roof, if you skip that its like $26,400. In a world when family sedans easily hit $30k that is hardly overpriced. I am aware of the Aura's sales, but those sales cant be due to poor reviews of the car because the press' reaction has been very positive. I think it's because people who drive imports arent going to give the car a chance in many cases even if it offere compelling value. Saturn gives you a $2k-$3k advantage and people like you are saying you need a $5k advantage. GM does have to at least TRY to make some money on these cars you know. There is NOTHING "premium" about an Accord or Altima that would make be think those cars are worth $5k more than an Aura.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Well you said something must be wrong with Mazda, by which I assumed you meant the entire brand, that's why I referenced the total sales.

    I just looked at that Intellichoice website that you refered to and it is worthless. For the Fusion, they neglect the $1000 rebate and for Mazda6 they neglect $2000 rebates. Then they assume an interest rate of 5.3% for 5 years, when the market rate is more like 7.5%. This means the Accord buyer would pay 7.5%, while the fusion buyer could get discounted rate of 4.9% (or an even better deal of 2.9% on a 3 year loan).

    In addition they somehow come up with maintenance costs that are almost 50% higher than Honda on the Ford or Mazda. I find that hard to believe.

    And, hey, what's with all the dissing of Mazda, when your ID is m1miata. ;)
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    Sorry, but contrary to C&D's opinion there is nothing premium about the Accord vs the competition. The Passat is premium but its price reflects that. It offers features not found on lesser midsize cars like the Accord and Camry.

    To be premium you need to offer better than average features, a better warranty and/or a premium price. The Accord doesnt do any of those things.

    The new Malibu and the Aura are just as "premium" as any Accord. When the Accord is down on features, hp, tranny gears and styling compared to its newer competitors I fail to see why it's a premium offering. You must be joking if you think the '08 Malibu should come in $5k cheaper than an Accord. What are you basing this on? The car looks good inside and out and has a great powertrain. $20k-$28k is very appropriate for the new Malibu.

    "However, I do think Saturn has the potential to become the equal of Honda and VW. However, Saturn is not quite there yet. "

    Check out the Outlook, I think it has more of a right to be considered premium than the Pilot. It's styling, pricing and features list are on a higher level than the Pilot.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    The C1/EUCD platforms are available today... the Focus should already be C1 for 2008

    It should have been C1 since the C1 debuted, but that's water under the bridge. The new Focus project was well under way even before Fields took over as was the Edge and MKX.

    As for the EUCD vs. CD3 - I'm not sure which is the better PLATFORM. I certainly like the Mondeo styling. The point is to build both cars off the same platform with as much sharing as is feasible. But again, that will take some time.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    About this "premium" stuff...

    Give a few flips of the blinker stalk, push some buttons, and turn some knobs. The interior of the Honda Accord, at least to me, felt better built, higher quality, and more solid. The Saturn LOOKED good, but didn't have the tactile quality of the Honda. If you can't tell a difference, then go with the qualities of the car that appeal to you most, and buy from there.

    The car looks good inside and out and has a great powertrain. $20k-$28k is very appropriate for the new Malibu.

    I'm sorry, but someone paying close to $30k for a nameplate with the record the Malibu has for reliability and resale in the last ten years (reliability has been marginally better lately, but resale is pathetic) must have lots of money to give away. Wait a year or two and get that $28k Malibu for $22k when rebate time rolls around.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I think some of the frustration is that they market the car before its done and polished. Its the feeling that its 90% there and that is now good enough.

    I agree - see the previous post about building to a price point. With the Koreans now firmly entrenched and the Chinese just around the corner Ford can no longer afford to sell vehicles based on price. Put another $2K in each vehicle and go head to head with the competition. They've done the same thing with the new Escape - retaining the old 4 speed tranny. The test will be what comes out for the 2009 model year. That should be enough time to make drastic changes in the models and platforms.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    But here we have people saying a Ford would have to be $5000 less than Honda for them to consider it

    And I would submit that those people would never buy a Ford in the first place. For some reason people have an irrational hatred of Ford and all things domestic (or all things not Camcord) so they exaggerate the shortcomings.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Not in California

    California isn't even on the same planet, let alone the same country.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    The "new" Escape STILL has a 4-speed?
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    'Fraid so. And standard drum brakes. I heard the project manager was put on "special assignment". I sincerely hope these are the last projects being done as blue light specials.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    What is the deal with Ford's new engine? They said it was supposed to be more fuel efficient. But in the MKZ/Zephyr I see 18/25 mpg for the '07 with the new engine vs. 20/28 mpg for the '06 with the 3.0.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    The C1/EUCD platforms are available today... the Focus should already be C1 for 2008

    It should have been C1 since the C1 debuted, but that's water under the bridge. The new Focus project was well under way even before Fields took over as was the Edge and MKX.

    The Focus wasn't a C1 because the US doesn't want a $20,000 Focus (thats not bashing, they don't seem excited abotu $20,000 Civics either).
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    a) the malibu doesnt have a poor record for reliability
    b) GM has cut rebates and its apparent you are basing your statements on GM's incentives from 2 years ago
    c) The Aura's switchgear (and other recent GM cars) is very solid and precise. Huge difference from GM sedans of 5+ years ago. The new GM climate controls found on many of their vehicles have been praised for their feel. It's not that I am incapable of telling the difference, it's that there is no difference. Even so, I'm not paying $5k to have a better wiper stalk.
    d)The new Malibu is much better than the current car so while the name may be the same, the car is not.
    e) resale value was affected by fleet sales and perceived quality which is why GM has cut fleet sales and boosted warranty. Residuals on recent GM entries have been respectable and much better than last gen GM models.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    "The "new" Escape STILL has a 4-speed? "

    It does, just like the almost new Rav4 has on its four cylinder model. I agree that the Escape needs a better powertrain but lets not act like they are the only ones using 4 speeds. I believe the Tuscon and Sante Fe also have four speeds standard.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    Your post is accurate. Many people are going to stick with what they have been driving for the last 10 years or so. Since their Toyota didnt break down a lot they wont look at anything else. That is their choice and it makes some sense, but there are so many nice cars on the market I dont see any reason to be limited. People can make excuses all day about why Camcords are clearly superior but the facts dont back that up. Camcords are superior in resale and reputation but not always performance, price or value. Many folks really make themselves feel better by bashing domestic cars as if this is 1985 instead of just saying "I dont like anything domestic and have no desire to buy something lacking a Japanese badge".

    BTW, do Ford haters hate the Mazda6? Just wondering since they are the same underneath the sheetmetal.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    BTW, do Ford haters hate the Mazda6? Just wondering since they are the same underneath the sheetmetal.

    They will now that you pointed it out......
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    I personally see every new car that I have to be a welcome opportuninty to try something else.

    I'm currently "trying out" a 4*4 and loving it. It's old, but it's still a blast to drive.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    do Ford haters hate the Mazda6 - hate would be a strong word, but I at least disrespect Ford's latest business practices (putting many Americans out of work), building things in Mexico instead of working out whatever problems they could with their US labor forces, and continually putting products out on the market before they are really ready. The Fusion and the 6 could both be so much more, IMO. The Mazda, in my book, while I understand it is largely identical to the Fusion - at least continues to be built here - a point in its favor.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    I think the MazdaSpeed6 is one of the coolest things on the road right now, and with the previous incentives, was a great deal to boot. I think the standard Mazda6 isn't a slouch and they appeal to enthusiasts by offering manual transmissions and actually having them available.
    I think a lot of people bought that car after the Contour SE/SVT. It is about the sportiest mid-size available at the price-point.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    do Ford haters hate the Mazda6?
    hate would be a strong word, but I at least disrespect Ford's latest business practices (putting many Americans out of work), building things in Mexico instead of working out whatever problems they could with their US labor forces,

    The Mazda6 is made in Flat Rock, Michigan by UAW members.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    didn't read me whole post did you?
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    jeffyscott- think this may be 2 things: 1) the engine is not nearly as advanced as proponents would make you think it is and 2) Ford did not and does have have the resources (money) to do anything else. Have read mixed reviews on it, but if it doesn't exhibit the same level of refinement as the Camcordima engines, it may further perpetutate those problems Ford has with powertrains in general. The Fusion with 260hp or so would seem to be an obvious choice for the thing, but, haven't read anything definitive about the engine actually making it under the Fusions hood. Ford does have a history of being late on their promises (eg the 500) so I wouldn't hold your breath in any case.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "Since their Toyota didnt break down a lot they wont look at anything else"

    Amended sentence:

    Since their Toyota didnt break down a lot and my Ford did they wont look at anything else.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Loren,

    Do you have any plans to test drive the Aura 3.6 "High Feature" V6 Aura XR ????

    Rocky
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    "BTW, the Aura is clearly better than the Fusion and 6 in almost every area. Not that those are bad cars, but the Aura is newer and better."

    Pretty vague as to how the Aura is "better". How?
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Would the opposite hold true if I owned both a Fusion and a Camry and the Fusion hasn't had 1 single problem and the Camry had engine sludge and a bad transmission? Would that be reason for me to never consider a Camry again?
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    "Honestly, resale value is the last major reason to buy foreign cars. Not that they dont make nice cars, but that is the only area where they have a real advantage in 2007. If you lease resale value isn't going to be a big deal, same applies if you are going to keep the car for a decade. Resale means the most if you plan to get rid of the car in 4-5 years. "

    I agree, resale is where the "imports" have it now over the "domestic" brands. Reliability/quality/fit/finish are all on par across the board in about all makes/models. I feel over the next 5-7 years however this is going to fade away. Consumers are going to get smarter and start to ask "Why am I paying so much more for what advantage"? In fact its already started, get out on the net and visit other chat rooms. Tick, Tick, Tick... time it will only take time. Can't blame Toyota/Honda for trying to capitalize on their PAST reputation. It only makes good marketing sense. Personally, I won't pay the extra $$ for a perceived quality/reliability advantage. ;)
  • lightfootfllightfootfl Member Posts: 442
    The major problem with Ford, or anyone else is, rather than try to fix a problem and make a "good" product they change the name so as to confuse the buying public into thinking they have done something better. You are right about the nameplate, it is the product that people want, not the name, although if the product is good, the name is too. People remember, and you can always "ask the man that owns one". :) That is unless the company continues to mess things up rather than fix them up. But problems will always occur and they can be fixed, if someone will try. ;)
    Another thought, some of today's generation would never be caught dead in a vehicle that "dad or grandpa" had. They have to have something new and different, regardless.

    van
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    " and I am willing to pay for this "premium" I would also say that VW produces "premium" mainstream cars"

    Once again, image. Your willingness to pay for perceived "premium" vehicle is your choice. In my book the Fusion/Milan are on par with the Accord.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,146
    >Camry had engine sludge and a bad transmission?

    Maybe we could ask if the transmissions don't shift right, have flares, and along delays before accelerating? How about if the car has lots of plastic squeaks and rattles reported by owners in discussions? Is that reason to never buy that car again? How about if the company is unresponsive to the owners with these problems and has dealers telliing them they need to just adapt to their car or it's their fault for not driving the car right?

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

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