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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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Comments

  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    "The major problem with Ford, or anyone else is, rather than try to fix a problem and make a "good" product they change the name so as to confuse the buying public into thinking they have done something better. You are right about the nameplate, it is the product that people want, not the name, although if the product is good, the name is too. People remember, and you can always "ask the man that owns one". That is unless the company continues to mess things up rather than fix them up. But problems will always occur and they can be fixed, if someone will try.
    Another thought, some of today's generation would never be caught dead in a vehicle that "dad or grandpa" had. They have to have something new and different, regardless"

    The Taurus/Sable are good vehicles.. Take a look around the net, msn reliability data for one.. and you will be surprised the reliability is as good as a Camry or Accord. Refinement is what people balk at. And the 500/Montego are also very reliable.. visit other chats around the net. :shades:
  • redsfan1redsfan1 Member Posts: 58
    I was looking at a used 2004 honda accord, V6 graphite pearl. The car has the grey leather seats. I usually think leather seats look nice in a vehicle. Is it just me or do some Honda leather seats look wrinkle like and not tight like other leather seats? They look kind of sloppy. Does anyone have the grey leather seats? How do they hold up? I am trying to look for a used accord that is v6 but it seems impossible to find one that does not have leather seats.
  • benderofbowsbenderofbows Member Posts: 542
    I wouldn't consider myself one of the "Ford Haters," however it would take an awful lot to make me even consider another Ford.

    I know this is not scientific as I am only a sample of one, but... My last Ford, a 2004 model, had transmission, driveline, and accessory problems since brand new. Within 15k miles it had quickly developed braking and more driveline problems. Although the car was actually settling down after the warranty expired, some of the issues remained and my confidence was shaken from the 9 visits to the shop I had endured thus far. I traded it in at 46k, for a new Honda Accord.

    What makes it statistically significant is that if you look at the "Problems and Solutions" board or in CR, the same issues appear to be very common... Yet the worst part about my experience was, half the time the dealer wouldn't even acknowledge a problem existed, even though I had seen TSBs that had been issued over a year prior. I don't think you can blame me for being a little turned off from Ford.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Yes, but those other models have 4-speeds on their low-end models. Escapes have them all the way up to the Limited model. That's for a different thread though, so I'll stop.
  • lightfootfllightfootfl Member Posts: 442
    I agree that they are good vehicles. They could be great vehicles though if they kept working on making them better. I have had 5 new Fords and for the most part they are good, just not great. Their mileages have never been good, their warrantee is/was lacking,and they have had several problems along the way,although nothing drastic. BTW I presently own a 2002 Sable Deluxe Wagon that I dearly love, however I think my 2006 Hyundai Sonata LX is hands down better, and it too is lacking in the mileage department. I look for a vehicle that seems to best suit my needs at the time, and seems reasonably priced. :)

    van
  • booyahcramerbooyahcramer Member Posts: 172
    The Taurus/Sable are good vehicles.. Take a look around the net,

    Brother you can find ANYTHING you want on the "net", including people that will agree with you that yes means no.

    My Taurus was a joke. I gave Ford a chance and they soured me for many, many years to their products. Why buy another Ford when there's Honda out there? C'mon. Ford's crumbling.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    This is neither a foreign vs domestic discussion, nor is it the place to dissect the shortcomings of any manufacturer. We're talkin' 'bout the sedans here, not all of their makers' baggage. :P

    Feel free to visit the Automotive News & Views board for more general discussion of the manufacturers. That's the right place.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    How long will the Fusion name last? 5 years? What will the next "New and Improved" name be? To me, it doesn't show much confidence in the product, when you change the name.

    How about Prelude? Or Vigor? Or Legend? Or Integra? Or Tercel? Or Corona? Or Celica? I think all of those names are available. I think Legend is a classy name--maybe Ford will buy that one from Honda.
  • virusvirus Member Posts: 21
    Just because they look wrinkled doesn't mean they aren't of high quality. They may be far more supple. Last time I looked, Honda had good quality leather.

    I had a Ford Taurus and kept it for well over the 100k mark with no problems whatsoever. No sqeaks or rattles and still ran fantastic. Taurus's of late just aren't on par with their competition.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Yes it would. You hit the nail on the head. One bad ownership experience (or even two) can steer an owner clear of manufacturer.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    It's tough to say an opinion is wrong, isn't it?
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    I noticed it came up again today. Here's the latest official pics from Ford. I can see how this could be the next evolution of the Fusion. Needs an "American" motor though. The HiPo motor for Europe is a 2.5L 217 HP I5. I'm guessing that's the same one you'll find in some Volvos.

    image

    image

    image
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Best effort, looks wise from Ford, remains the Milan. Best exterior, and better interior than the Fusion of today.
    -Loren
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Consumers are smarter right now. They are buying the best cars for fit / finish / reliability / performance / gas mileage / durability / style / smoothness of the engine, and such. They are also buying more cars made in USA. Better resale value is icing on the cake. That said, there are a handful of domestic cars which may make sense as a fair value overall. Since we are talking in general, then in general those Japan makes are still better. Open up the CR magazine, and look for all those red dots.... lots and lots of red dots under the user survey section of the yearly car report. Then take those which look good in domestic cares and see how up to date a car they really are. You can find a few modern ones here and there. The CTS has done well, and has mostly the right stuff. Then you have some reliable ones which are so boring to look at or drive, you wouldn't want one parked in your driveway.
    -Loren
  • cotmccotmc Member Posts: 1,081
    The exterior looks very similar to the Volvo S40!

    Must be the same platform.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I doubt it. The S40 is a compact, the same platform as the Mazda3 and Euro Focus.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,293
    exactly the reason we only had 1 toyota. i guess they are good for other people.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,293
    i know that for some people, 'cr' is everything. it just doesn't work for me that way. it reminds me of the old 'IT' expression, 'nobody ever got fired for buying ibm'. that did change over time.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • jaxs1jaxs1 Member Posts: 2,697
    Probably the European version of a Ford model and would not come to the US just like the current European version of the Focus did not come to the US.
    That picture looks more like a Focus anyway.
  • atenza94546atenza94546 Member Posts: 6
    It is possible but look back in the 1st intro. of the Focus in 2000. The US spec Focus was change from the original to a US spec. The only one that is close to the origianl was the SVT version. The grill was changed, front and rear bumper,and for the ZX3 & ZX5 is even more obvious that the tail light is change. I don't know what's wrong with the original design. But Ford US have their own taste of car. Which the new Mondeo possibly that Ford US will change it before selling it to the US market. I mean less attractive exterior design.
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Member Posts: 425
    BTW, do Ford haters hate the Mazda6? Just wondering since they are the same underneath the sheetmetal.

    although many components are the same, there are several significant differences that make the 6 and the fusion distinctly different cars. the first and probably most important is the suspension. the fusion has a softer suspension which makes the car lean more in corners. although it is still pretty responsive compared to other cars in this class, it is not as quick on turn in, nor as composed mid-corner as a mazda 6.

    another difference is the seats; the 6's buckets are more supportive and hold the driver in place better than the fusion. and of course, one of the main advantages of the mazda 6 is the addition of hatchback or wagon choices for those that desire flexible cargo capability. the fusion does not share this versatility.

    clearly, the target audience for both cars are different which explains the difference in styling and execution. the fact that the 6's platform is used so frequently in mazda's and ford's lineup is a compliment to the quality of this chassis. even with a sportier suspension compared to other cars in this class, the 6's ride is not harsh and does not clunk clumsily after hitting a large pothole. but the fusion is a solid car because it has many of the positive aspects of the 6 like great breaking, good handling, and quick steering, but it softens up the ride to make it more acceptable to families who may not want the edginess and sharpness of the mazda 6.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Of course it is not only Consumer Reports data which indicates these cars as being more reliable. Many other sources, including your local mechanic will tell you they are reliable. As for all the elements of the buying decision, they simply won. Do you think that there is a conspiracy out there to support bad Japanese cars. It would have to include neighbors, and relatives, as well as, every car magazine lying to you about these cars. And I may add GM, Ford and Chrysler have all indicated they were trying to achieve their quality. Are they trying to achieve levels of inferior cars? Why would older people you see, after buying American cars for years, suddenly start buying Japan makes? And I may add second and third Hondas, Subarus, Toyotas and such.

    This doesn't mean that GM and Ford, and German owned Chrysler do not have some good product to offer. Just saying there is a reason people are buying Japan makes. The new Aura is an example of GM coming up with something to compete. And then there are cars like the Chrysler 300 and CTS which are uniquely American.
    -Loren
  • benderofbowsbenderofbows Member Posts: 542
    Why would older people you see, after buying American cars for years, suddenly start buying Japan makes?

    My older in-laws only bought "American" cars until last year, when they traded their Chevrolet Impala in on a loaded Nissan Altima 3.5 SE. What prompted them to finally try a Japanese car? Well, two primary reasons.

    First, reliability/durability. From their past experiences, they said they could keep their American cars on the road until about 100,000 miles, and their trucks until about 80,000 miles, without spending too much money on repairs or risking breakdowns. After that, the repair bills really started to add up (they kept having fuel pump, wheel bearing, and misc. accessory problems with the Impala even before 80k, and at the same time had to replace the motor in their other American vehicle, a 1998 F-150 with 75k miles). They wanted to see if a Japanese car would hold up better.

    The other reason? Resale value. They looked at projected resale values for the American sedans versus the Japanese sedans that they were considering, and realized just how many thousands of dollars extra they could get back in 6 to 8 years on a Japanese car versus the American cars.

    In 2005 when they replaced the F150, my FIL strongly considered the new Titan. He didn't buy it, "not his style" but just the fact that he considered it over another F150 says alot, IMO.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    My older in-laws only bought "American" cars until last year, when they traded their Chevrolet Impala in on a loaded Nissan Altima 3.5 SE. What prompted them to finally try a Japanese car?

    It is interesting that people ascribe much higher reliability to all Japanese makes, when it really is mostly just Toyota and Honda that are significantly more reliable (according to CR data, anyway). Looking at a chart from April 2006 issue they show average Toyota at about 30 "problems" per vehicle, Honda at 40, Nissan at just below 60, Buick is virtually tied with Nissan at just above 60, Ford is at about 70.

    There is about the same difference between Buick and Pontiac (which approaches 100) as there is between Toyota and Buick. Yet if someone said "I've had Pontiacs in the past but I am going to buy a Buick because they are so much more reliable than Pontiac", I think most would think they were nuts.

    Per CR data, there is a smaller difference between Nissan and Ford than there is between Nissan and Toyota. Yet people are far more likely to say I will buy Nissan over Ford for greater reliability than they are to say I will buy Toyota over Nissan for greater reliability.

    Similarly there is as much difference between Ford and Chevy as between Ford and Nissan. But when is the last time someone bought Ford instead of Chevy because of greater reliability?
  • montztermontzter Member Posts: 72
    "Since their Toyota didnt break down a lot and my Ford did they wont look at anything else."

    Words of wisdom!
  • neteng101neteng101 Member Posts: 176
    From their past experiences, they said they could keep their American cars on the road until about 100,000 miles, and their trucks until about 80,000 miles, without spending too much money on repairs or risking breakdowns.

    Compare that to the legacy Honda has set for mileage...

    http://www.hondabeat.com/highmiles.php?intStart=25

    A well built car except for early model bugs should with good maintenance easily last 100k miles without mechanical/engine problems, and I don't see why they can't easily go 300-500k miles in the hands of a good owner.

    But you simply cannot get that sort of reliability consistently from "American" cars... my Taurus had to go before it even touched 100k because I knew expensive repairs were around the corner (probably would have costs as much or more than the car was worth in trade-in value). There are some high mileage Taures I've read about but they tend to have had major work done to keep them on the roads - rebuilt engine, transmission swap, etc. The junkyard is a high mileage domestic owner's best resource!

    One neighbor has a Chevy S10 that past 50k was already having problems and he says he'll never buy another "American" truck again. The only abuse its ever taken was hauling a load of firewood, and the transmission was never the same after. He also owns an older Chevy Blazer... but after the S10, he's done.

    The Accord sells because they get repeat buyers - people keep coming back for another one after having great experiences with older ones. It says a lot more about reliability and true customer satisfaction than surveys of new owners by JD Powers, CR, etc. 80% of Accord buyers are repeat customers!
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    The exterior looks very similar to the Volvo S40!

    Must be the same platform.

    I agree with your assessment of the looks but this platform is larger than the C1 (Euro Focus/S40/Mazda3). Probably a bit smaller than the Fusion, think current Mazda6 size, but stretchable I would wager.
  • meateatermeateater Member Posts: 123
    Since when is a Focus a midsize sedan?
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    Probably the European version of a Ford model and would not come to the US just like the current European version of the Focus did not come to the US.
    That picture looks more like a Focus anyway.


    I'm not making this up guys. Read this and this.

    Ford is seriously considering bringing this over to our shores along with some Aussie RWD cars. I would guess they would be assembled here too.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    My older in-laws only bought "American" cars until last year, when they traded their Chevrolet Impala in on a loaded Nissan Altima 3.5 SE.

    Wish them luck with their Altima. My mother, after owning a '90 and '99 Taurus, traded for a '03 Nissan Altima. It's had 6 recalls, and over $800 worth of "non-warranty" work, with only 32K miles. Needless to say, she hates it, and wishes she had her Taurus back.

    In 2005 when they replaced the F150, my FIL strongly considered the new Titan. He didn't buy it, "not his style" but just the fact that he considered it over another F150 says alot, IMO.

    He made the right decision, since I've heard nothing but horror stories about the Titan.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    Since when is a Focus a midsize sedan?

    Hmm. I think I see the confusion now. Those pics I posted about 15-20 posts back were of the new Ford Mondeo and not the Euro Focus. I didn't specify the model because I assumed most of you would already have seen it on Edmunds' Inside Line front page.

    Am I the only one who reads their news?
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    I guess you haven't read much about the Aura. It's slightly larger, faster, has more features and is generally thought to have a superior interior. It's somewhat more expensive but that is mostly due to equipment levels. Handling and braking for the Aura/Fusion is about a wash.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    "Then you have some reliable ones which are so boring to look at or drive, you wouldn't want one parked in your driveway. "

    If I am willing to park an "exciting" camry or Sonata in my driveway why would I be ashamed to have an Impala or 500 or Fusion or G6? Don't get that. Speaking of red dots, if you look at the detailed ratings iN CR's auto issue you will see mostly red dots and half red dots on domestic vehicles. For some reason in CR a car can have mostly good ratings on components but end up with an average or below average overall ratings. Check it out for youself. Most of those "unreliable" domestics you are speaking of arent even unreliable per CR's tables in the new car issue.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    It's been widely reported that Ford will begin sharing platforms with Europe and Australia. This will include the CD platforms (Fusion, Mondeo). They may import some vehicles short term but longer term the goal is cost savings through platform sharing. There's no good reason to have 2 CD platforms or 2 RWD full size platforms or 2 C platforms. That was a result of organizational boundaries and lack of leadership that let it happen.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    If I am willing to park an "exciting" camry or Sonata in my driveway why would I be ashamed to have an Impala or 500 or Fusion or G6?

    Excellent point IMO. I mentioned a while back that the Taurus, if marketed right by Ford, could steal higher trim level CamCord sales due to it's similar price points. The Taurus (old Five Hundred) will probably be a better overall value than the Camry or Accord V6 at certain price points and it's up to Ford to get that word out. Actually telling people that it's a Volvo for about 2/3 the money wouldn't hurt either. ;)
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    "But you simply cannot get that sort of reliability consistently from "American" cars... my Taurus had to go before it even touched 100k because I knew expensive repairs were around the corner (probably would have costs as much or more than the car was worth in trade-in value). There are some high mileage Taures I've read about but they tend to have had major work done to keep them on the roads - rebuilt engine, transmission swap, etc. The junkyard is a high mileage domestic owner's best resource! "

    I would be inclined to believe most modern cars can run 100K miles without major problems, not just Toyotas and Honda. The year of the cars in question is very significant when talking about reliability. People will reference domestic cars from 1985 or 1990 as if it was yesterday. I know time flies, but that is a LONG time ago. The point is CR, JD powers and other sources show that the problems per vehicle for domestic makes is VERY close to that of import makes in many cases and clearly superior to European cars.

    My parents Olds is almost 9 years old with nearly 91K miles and has no tranny or engine work done, it hasnt even had a tune up yet. Give me a break. Lets at least try to focus on horror stories from the last decade or so. I dont think there is any disagreement that 15+ years ago there was a significant difference in quality, but things have changed a lot. Interestingly enough Automobile mag has a long term wrap up of a Ridgeline in the current issue and it had about five unscheduled stops for warranty work. Am I the only one who sees this stuff?
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    People can mock the "new" Taurus and Taurus X but they are solid entries in the under $30k segment. The Taurus has the power it needed, a decent interior, available AWD and much more space than a comparably priced Camry or Accord. for familes who dont care much about styling the Taurus is a great choice. I really like the Taurus X as well and it's mileage is much better than the Pilot or Highlander.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    The base Pontiac G8 will have a 3.6 "High Feature" V6 which should make it a economical midsize sedan with a sporty flair. :)

    Rocky
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    "How about if the car has lots of plastic squeaks and rattles reported by owners in discussions? Is that reason to never buy that car again? How about if the company is unresponsive to the owners with these problems and has dealers telliing them they need to just adapt to their car or it's their fault for not driving the car right? "

    You'll find that people who are loyal to imports will typically say problems like the ones you describe are the exception and not the rule. Sometimes people will trade in a trouble prone import for another vehicle from the SAME brand. Could you imagine anyone doing that with a domestic? I have noticed Toyota hasnt put that 6 speed auto in the RAv4, Highlander or Highlander and I'm wondering if that is related to the problems they are having.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    Either way, a "Euro" Fusion would easily compete or beat the current Camry and next Accord. The Mondeo does that over there so if Ford doesn't Americanize it (as they did with the original Focus) if/when they bring it over it should do very well.

    GM had the right idea and I think Mulally would be a fool not to follow their lead. Start over with the Euro and Aussie models because they can compete with anything out there right now and going forward. What they have now isn't cutting it, not 100% anyway. Time will tell and I am confident that they will again be 100% competitive in time.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    I thought I heard a while back that the G8 would be a Bonneville replacement. Is it basically the Grand Prix replacement instead?
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    As I said the Escape probably shouldnt have a 4 speed and its no secret that domestic vehicles are more likely to have 4 speeds than imports. My point is that 4 speeds are used in some of the most popular vehicles in the US such as the Impala, Tahoe, Corolla, RAv4, Escape, etc. In most cases the difference in mileage between a 4 speed and 5 speed is minimal. Its about marketing abd bragging rights more than anythng else. The Aura with a a 4 speed gets 20/30 compared to 21/29 for the Accord with a 5 speed and 200lbs less weight.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    "80% of Accord buyers are repeat customers!"

    Recent surveys have shown that GM led the industry in customer retention and Toyota was second. Not saying that specific import models dont have extremely loyal customer bases but the fact of the matter is GM does very well with retaining customers which makes it highly unlikely that a significant # of GM owners have major problems with their vehicles. I would suspect that a greater % of GM owners have had less than reliable vehicles than Toyota owners in recent years, but the overwhelming majority of GM products are reliable.
  • benderofbowsbenderofbows Member Posts: 542
    " My older in-laws only bought "American" cars until last year, when they traded their Chevrolet Impala in on a loaded Nissan Altima 3.5 SE.

    Wish them luck with their Altima. My mother, after owning a '90 and '99 Taurus, traded for a '03 Nissan Altima. It's had 6 recalls, and over $800 worth of "non-warranty" work, with only 32K miles. Needless to say, she hates it, and wishes she had her Taurus back.

    In 2005 when they replaced the F150, my FIL strongly considered the new Titan. He didn't buy it, "not his style" but just the fact that he considered it over another F150 says alot, IMO.

    He made the right decision, since I've heard nothing but horror stories about the Titan. "

    I must confess, while I was happy to hear that they were considering Japanese makes, I was a little worried that they were only strongly considering the Altima. I know that Altimas in the past were extremely reliable, but I too have heard that quality is slipping somewhat. However, it should give them much better reliability than they had with their 2000 Impala and the 1998 F-150. I remember thinking how ridiculous it was that he had to replace the engine in that thing after only 75k; he doesn't drive hard, his commute provides ideal driving conditions, never towed, no off-road use, etc...

    Nissan has had some issues as of late, but no engines at 75k that I have heard of.

    Whatever the reliability turns out to be, they'll certainly be in a much better position come trade-in time.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    its no secret that domestic vehicles are more likely to have 4 speeds than imports.

    One of my criteria in choosing a midsize sedan was I wanted a 5 speed automatic with a 4 cylinder engine. I was looking at cars that could be bought for maximum of maybe $20,000. IIRC, the choices were Fusion, Milan, Mazda6, Accord, Camry
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Ford, Chevy, Honda, Toyota all about the same according to this.
  • neteng101neteng101 Member Posts: 176
    I was talking about a 2000 Ford Taurus. ;)
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I was talking about a 2000 Ford Taurus.

    Which has absolutely nothing in common with a 2007 Fusion.
  • neteng101neteng101 Member Posts: 176
    You mean something like this?...

    http://car-reviews.automobile.com/news/general-motors-takes-first-and-last-place- -in-new-j-d-powers-customer-retention-study/371/

    Truck sales and general customer loyalty sure, but nowhere near the 80% mark of the Accord.
  • neteng101neteng101 Member Posts: 176
    A Fusion and a Taurus, nothing in common? - aren't both made by Ford? Isn't the Fusion engine an evolution of the Duratec in the Taurus? Aren't some of the knobs for the non automatic climate control, the way you turn on the headlights, etc similar?

    Perception will keep buyers away from a good car after a bad experience... Ford will take years to do its damage control. And the Fusion has no track record to back itself up either... unlike the Accord which is in its 31st year of sales! :D

    Check back with me in 30 years and I'll give the Fusion some consideration if there's been good reports. ;)
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