Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

alpha01 · January 2006

The difference is because the '03 TL-S and '03 Maxima have significantly different torque figures, separated, I believe, by about 40 foot pounds. However, the comparison that was made in the previous post, between the Accord and Altima, torque figures differ by about 14 foot-pounds.

Since we're talking about the Camry and Sonata, whose torque figures differ by 3 foot pounds and weight differs by less than 20 lbs, the 4sp vs. 5sp argument with respect to passing seems well constructed.

~alpha

thegraduate · January 2006

Thanks for the vote of confidence, alpha.

I honestly didn't know the torque figure of the Altima (although I could have found it easily), but I remember that data I mentioned specifically from a 2003 issue of Motor Trend comparing 4-cyl Auto entries from Toyota, Nissan, and Honda. The Toyota and Honda were within 3 hp of each other, but over a second seperated 0-60 times, b/c the Accord had a 5-speed vs 4-speed (a big part of it, anyways). The Altima also had a 4-speed and an extra 15 hp over the Accord, but the Accord still beat it 0-60 despite the horsepower/torque disadvantage.

victord1 · January 2006

I'm not trying to dog anybody here. But when I saw the big bold heading Re: 5-speed Auto Benefits vs a 4-speed Auto[jrock65], I thought I'd pitched in my 2 cents, which I guess wasn't worth that much. Now if we can get the owners of those vehicles (altima, accord, camry and sonata)to pitch in their real-world views.......

I suppose the 5-speed Auto Benefits vs a 4-speed Auto depends on the total package. It's not as clear cut as one would assume. The vehicle weight, engine size, hp, torque, and gearing all come into play.

PS. the TL-S tops the Maxi in term of performance (per magazine reviews)and belongs in the so-called Entry-Luxury Performance Sedan class which the Maxi does not. In normal daily driving, I feel the opposites.

driverdm · January 2006

The tuning of the engine may be a significant factor there. Toyota's Camry was never supposed to be a speedy ride. It may have something to do with the amount of gears, but it may have more to do with the engine tuning.

thegraduate · January 2006

In my original post about 5-speed vs 4-speed benefits, I didn't mean for it to be that complicated.

For purposes of comparison, all of post 1167 stands true. to make things easier, they hold true if the car 1 was identical to car 2, with the exception of transmission. I have no doubt the Sonata is a great car, and didn't intend to demean that. I personally feel it would be better with a well-developed 5-speed as opposed to its well-developed 4-speed. It would likely be quicker and offer better passing acceleration.

My intent was to compare ONE car if offered with a 4-speed versus a 5-speed.

stickguy · January 2006

even if the ultimate performance isn't any different, the experience is more pleasant, since if the gears are spread too far apart, you end up flipping back and forth from lugging to racing. The 5 speed has smaller steps between gears (usually) so you often have the mama bear gear that is "just right"

rparis · January 2006

For aperson in their early 20s has anyone compared these two verhicles?

explorerx4 · January 2006

are you saying you are passing a dump truck which is travelling at 75 mph?

thegraduate · January 2006

are you saying you are passing a dump truck which is travelling at 75 mph?

Yes. If you have ever been on a rural stretch of Alabama's I-65 over Labor Day (beach traffic), you know that the right lane is usually at 70 mph or so, and the left around 90+. With only two lanes to deal with south of Montgomery, AL, when a car merges on the on-ramp, you either have to bite the bullet and get in the left lane, or nearly cause a pile-up and hit the brakes. A dump truck ended up in front of me, however, because he had been holding up the left lane, so he cut me off. He was dropping gravel, so I immediately got back over and took the hole he had left when he moved. I got around him and drove (what I'd deem as too fast, normally) at the pace of the left lane for a while until he was safely behind me.

I've gotten way too many cracked windshields to stay behind a dump truck for long. Even at considerable following distances, one rock can bounce a long time...I bet many of you know this firsthand, too.

Normally though, explorer, I am about 5 mph over the limit. Holiday traffic calls for higher speed sometimes, though.

bhmr59 · January 2006

Or you could slow down a little and let traffic merge in. It might lengthen your trip by all of 30 seconds, but you wouldn't be swerving in & out of traffic like some idiots in the north east. (They're the ones causing accidents, tying up traffic, not the people who go a bit faster than the traffic flow.)

You don't have to junp on the gas, just ease off for a few seconds. You might be surprised at how much better traffic flows.

thegraduate · January 2006

Been there done that. After replacing my blinker housing (a rock went clean through it in my 1996 a couple years ago), I don't play with dump trucks anymore. I am not as concerned about acceleration numbers as I am with fuel economy, so trust me, I don't race everywhere I go (I got 36.4 mpg on my last trip in my Accord, well over EPA numbers, so I obviously am not a speeding maniac). I don't bother to jump in a faster lane if it is a passenger car, or an enclosed-trailer big-rig. Just open air dump trucks dropping rocks.

thegraduate · January 2006

Is anyone out there? :surprise:

stickguy · January 2006

I'm here. Whatta you want?

fredvh · January 2006

I think we are all waiting to see and drive the new 2007 Camry. Hopefully it will be here in 6 weeks. Pricing has not been announced yet but I am sure it will be very close to the current model.

bjbird2 · January 2006

Not all of us are waiting to see and drive the new 2007 Camry. It's never been on my short list. :P

rparis · January 2006

Has anyone decided on the Milan over the Accord. If so, any particular reason and what is the age group Ford is appealing to with this vehicle?

thegraduate · January 2006

I may be wrong, but I think I know what you are thinking with this. Mercury is to Ford kinda what Buick is to GM. Mercurys (Mercuries I think?) appeal to older buyers than do Fords. The Grand Marquis has helped put Mercury on the map with its more senior customers, and, though Ford has the Crown Vic, it also has the Mustang, Focus, and its truck line to draw attention for younger buyers. Mercury doesen't offer anything geared towards younger (i.e. under 35) buyers. Am I right?

I feel like I can say this kind of thing since I am 18 and chose the Accord sedan as my car of choice (looked at Toyotas, Nissans, and several trucks before arriving in my Honda Accord EX).

I will be interested to see any responses to rparis's question. Thanks guys,

thegrad

mtnman1 · January 2006

Actually the Milan is geared for younger people. Also the Mountaineer is geared toward any age group that wants a more luxurious Explorer.

rparis · January 2006

My son is 23 and was thinking of purchasing the Accord until he saw the Milan. He wants build in nav and Ipod an outlet (an blue tooth),but is still leaning toward the Milan. Honda is known to be reliable with a great resale value. These are unknown with the Milan. Also, many times the first year a car is on the market there might be some "bugs" that are corrected the second year.
It would be interesting to know the age group of actual buyers of the Milan.

jdeib · January 2006

I think your observations are right on regarding the Accord and Milan. There is nothing to really dissuade your son from either, excepting the questions regarding reliability/resale value on the Milan. Both are nice cars, the Honda has a great history, the jury is still out on the Mercury.

My advice to your son is to buy which car he likes the best. It sounds simple, but neither car is a bad choice, and all cars do have issues. It makes it much easier though when you love what you drive. Good luck in whichever he chooses.

P. S. Your son may want to look at the 2007 Camry coming in March. It will offer Nav with Bluetooth and the Ipod jack. It will also be a first year product but my two Camrys have been first year cars and were not troublesome cars.

P. P. S. Have to go, my team just made it to the Superbowl!!! Go STILLERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

chrisford · January 2006

Both are nice cars, the Honda has a great history, the jury is still out on the Mercury.

Mercury is more dependable according to JD Power
http://www.jdpower.com/pdf/2005089.pdf

thegraduate · January 2006

Mercury is more dependable according to JD Power

According to this study, neither Honda or Mercury are mentioned...and we are talking initial quality here. I read there that the Malibu took an award? (Meaning what is now the Chevy "Classic", the old 2002 Malibu). It was consistently ranked at the VERY BOTTOM of the list in consumer reports reliability study. For the Milan, I'd go to Consumer Reports and look up reliability ratings for the Mazda 6 (shares a platform and engine). They have generally rated about average, though certain specific models have dropped to below average several times. It could certainly be much worse, but could be better, too.

mtnman1 · January 2006

If you look at the report closely you do see that Honda and Mercury are mentioned. There is an entire page that is a graph showing the number of problems per 100 vehicles for all Brands. Just go back to the link that was provided and go through every page and you will find it. Mercury as a brand has just one more problem per 100 cars than the Toyota brand. I've owned a Mercury Mountaineer for two years and to me it's the best looking and most comfortable Mid Sized SUV available. I'm talking real SUV not Cross Over.

fsmmcsi · January 2006

Ford is targeting the Milan, and other Mercury models, at people of any age who want more style, or fashion, and they are reporting strong sales to women. For example, I much prefer the front ends and wheels on the Ford versions of the 2006 Mountaineer and Milan. Greater differentiation between the Ford and Mercury versions is what they intended and it seems to be a good idea.

fsmmcsi · January 2006

I-5 going north in California is similar. It is two lanes, trucks and vehicles towing trailers are limited to 55MPH, and cars in the left lane want to run 80 to 90+ while following very closely. I always try to allow adequate following distance, including an additional allowance if an unsafe driver wants to follow too closely behind me, so I can either be stuck with the trucks or get passed all of the time.

baggs32 · January 2006

Story here

jrock65 · January 2006

"(AXcess News) New York - According to the latest report on domestic auto sales by J.D. Power & Associates, US auto makers saw an 11 percent decline in retail sales through the first 15 days of January when compared to the same time period a year ago.

GM and Ford retail sales declined when compared to early January 2005 with GM down 28 percent and Ford down 25 percent. DaimlerChrysler was also down 13 percent when compared to the same period in 2005. Among the nine multi-franchise new-vehicle manufacturers, Hyundai and Toyota have had the best retail performance thus far in January. Retail sales for Hyundai were up 19 percent and Toyota Motor retail sales were up 9 percent compared to the first half of January 2005."

It's only for the first half of January 2006, but Hyundai's 19% increase in retail sales lends doubt to the theory that most of Hyundai's sales increases are coming from fleet sales.

trucker50 · January 2006

STILLERS???? Did Ben and his family make it to the Super Bowl?

jdeib · January 2006

Yep!!! It's an exciting time here in Stiller Country (Stiller is how the locals pronounce it) They just had 30,000 fans at Heinz field for a pep rally. Unreal.

todd11 · January 2006

Can anyone tell me the weight differential between the new duratec35 and the 3.0 duratec? I've read it's the same size, but nothing about the weight difference.

trucker50 · January 2006

Congrats on the "Stillers"....nothing is more exciting then a team making a championship run, especially an unexpected and late surge. I'm a Redskins fan and work 50 miles from Indianapolis and was pulling for the Colts but no one is playing as well as the Steelers right now....GOOD LUCK!!!!

baggs32 · January 2006

Stiller is how the locals pronounce it

Just for the record, not all of the locals pronounce it that way for I prefer to still call them the Steelers.

Although I am from the suburbs.

Been seeing a lot of Milans on the roads the past week or so. Saw one Fusion and two Zephyrs in the same time period. I guess the word is finally getting out around here. All those Fusion and Zephyr commercials during the NFL playoffs coupled with beer probably had something to do with it. :P Dad wants me to take him to the Pittsburgh auto show in two weeks to see a Milan and Fusion in person. I'm hoping they're a hit with him because I have to admit his '96 Sable is getting a little long in the tooth and he needs to upgrade IMO.

jdeib · January 2006

"Just for the record, not all of the locals pronounce it that way"

Nope, but it seems all of the people who end up being interviewed on the local news do! :P By the way, what is going on in the world? Th Pittsburgh newscasts consist of 95% Superbowl coverage, and 5% for the rest.

I'm looking forward to the Pgh Auto Show as well. They should have the new Camry on display, as well as the rest of the usual suspects. I'm interested in seeing the new Hyundai Azera in person. I have been seeing a decent number of the new Sonatas on the roads in Pgh and I think that design is sharp. I'm not sure about the Azera's styling, but it may look better in person.

baggs32 · January 2006

Nope, but it seems all of the people who end up being interviewed on the local news do!

Ain't that the truth!

By the way, what is going on in the world? Th Pittsburgh newscasts consist of 95% Superbowl coverage, and 5% for the rest.

Beats me! I saw that KDKA TV has 3 anchors, 2 roving reporters, and all of their sports casters in Detroit all week. Pretty soon they're going to run out of things to say and we're going to be hearing about what color underwear the Bettis family will be wearing to the game. :surprise:

You can have my place at the Camry too. I'd like to see the Azera too and I'm sure I'll be near the Sonata as my dad will be interested in it. He just became a Hyundai fan when he bought an Accent two years ago for their second car. It'll be hard to get him to replace their "large" car with something other than a FoMoCo product though. He really likes my Mazda6 so the Fusion or Milan should be a natural choice for him.

ctalk · January 2006

EXCELLENT:
1. Volkswagen Passat 3.6 ($33,315)
2. Honda Accord Hybrid ($30,655)
3. Volkswagen Passat 2.0T ($27,440)
4. Toyota Camry XLE V6 ($27,680)
5. Honda Accord EX V6 ($27,365)

VERY GOOD:
6. Honda Accord EX I4 ($23,800)
7. Ford Fusion SEL V6 ($26,025)
8. Hyundai Sonata GLS V6 ($22,995)
9. Toyota Camry LE 2.4 ($22,065)
10. Nissan Maxima 3.5SE ($33,080)
11. Nissan Altima 3.5SE ($28,280)
12. Hyundai Sonata GLS 2.4 ($21,345)
13. Ford Five Hundred SEL ($27,510)
14. Mazda6 i ($21,930)
15. Mercury Milan Base 2.3 ($20,415)
16. Mazda6 s ($27,790)
17. Toyota Prius ($23,490)
18. Chevrolet Malibu 2.2 ($20,125)
19. Chevrolet Malibu LS 3.5 ($22,460)
20. Nissan Altima 2.5S ($24,380)
21. Mitsubishi Galant GTS 3.8 ($27,094)
22. Chevrolet Impala 3LT 3.9 ($26,840)

GOOD:
23. Chrysler 300 Touring ($30,255)
24. Dodge Charger SXT ($28,860)
25. Mitsubishi Galant ES I4 ($20,994)
26. Buick LaCrosse CXL ($31,450)
27. Kia Amanti ($29,740)
28. Kia Optima EX V6 ($22,745)
29. Ford Taurus SEL ($25,545)
30. Chrysler Sebring Touring V6 ($23,140)
31. Pontiac G6 Base 3.5 ($23,080)
32. Suzuki Verona LX ($19,794)

FAIR:
33. Pontiac Grand Prix GT (non-S/C) ($28,255)
34. Dodge Stratus SXT 2.4 ($20,620)

The Passat did extremely well, quite surprised.
The Accord and Camry still stand strong.

cxc · January 2006

I read the latest issue CR last night. If I remembered correctly, "7. Ford Fusion SEL V6 ($26,025)" is behind "9. Toyota Camry LE 2.4 ($22,065)". It seems as follows:

6. Honda Accord EX I4 ($23,800)
7. Hyundai Sonata GLS V6 ($22,995)
8. Toyota Camry LE 2.4 ($22,065)

If I am wrong, could someone correct me.

alpha01 · January 2006

Ctalk presented the information differently than did CR. CR posted two graphs- one an "Over 25K Sedans" and the other "Under 25K Sedans".

Kudos, ctalk for breaking down those graphs by overall classification, across price points.

~alpha

ctalk · January 2006

Actually,

it was someone else in C&D forums who did that. :P

badgerfan · February 2006

One of the things that bug me about CR's evaluations is that they buy one vehicle and make that representative of the model and pigeonhole it into possibly an inappropriate price range. For example, they bought a Fusion V-6 SEL that must have been loaded with just about every otion available,with a MSRP of over $26K. This pushed the car's MSRP into their "above $25K range", where it faced strong competition from many near luxury priced cars, and came in about in the middle of the pack (though even at $26K it was quite a bit less expensive than the ones rated above it)

CR could have easily bought a V-6 SE or SEL and kept the options down, and the car would have run more in the $22K-$23K MSRP where it would have been at near the top of the list of the available choices in the CR "Under $25K category".

Just an example of the subtle bias that can creep into a CR comparison that claims to be unbiased.

alpha01 · February 2006

Please name a magazine that uses multiple versions of the same vehicle in their comparison tests... I cant think of one.

CR doest claim to test every combination of every vehicle, but they go further than the dedicated car rags, IMO. For example, they tested several versions of the models in their current issue.

What you said of the Fusion can be said of any vehicle, so it doesnt indicate bias in my opinon. The (current) Camry LE V6 would resolve some of the issues CR had with the Camry LE 4 in their Feb 05 test- namely, acceleration and braking (the V6 has much better stopping power due to the significantly greater swept area of the rear discs). The Camry LE V6 with only side curtains as an option is under $25K MSRP.

CR does provide an overall number score now, so look at the number for Fusion SEL V6, then compare it to the cars in the Under $25K category if you feel that a moderately equipped SE V6 would test the same. Is that really so difficult?

It seems you have more of a problem with the pricing categories used for the segment than anything else....

~alpha

badgerfan · February 2006

I do tend to have a problem when a car costing $30K is considered a "Family Car".

My main point is that an "average" car buyer (normally not us zealots who post in Edmunds a lot) who uses CR as a car buying guide might easily miss the fact that a V-6 Fusion, as an example here, can be had reasonably equipped but not loaded to the gills for closer to $20K than $26K, even on a strictly MSRP basis, and we all know the pitfalls of using MSRP as a tool at all.

True the other car mags are just as bad or worse, but that does not excuse CR for presenting this subtle bias.

alpha01 · February 2006

How is it a bias if it can affect any model of any make? I already pointed out an example using Toyota.

If a consumer cant tell, using the Options section of CRs report, that MANY options bought the car up to the shown MSRP, thats his or her own fault. Car buying is a huge purchase, and CRs objective is to test cars, not hand-hold.

~alpha

thegraduate · February 2006

I do tend to have a problem when a car costing $30K is considered a "Family Car".

My main point is that an "average" car buyer (normally not us zealots who post in Edmunds a lot) who uses CR as a car buying guide might easily miss the fact that a V-6 Fusion, as an example here, can be had reasonably equipped but not loaded to the gills for closer to $20K than $26K, even on a strictly MSRP basis, and we all know the pitfalls of using MSRP as a tool at all.

True the other car mags are just as bad or worse, but that does not excuse CR for presenting this subtle bias.

Well, to be fair, the last CR i picked up had tested the Accord Hybrid model, which rang in at over $30,000. Yes, it led in performance and economy, but priced most people right out! No reviews are perfect, and CR is about as close as they can get.

My bet is that most people concerned enough to look at CR will already know the pricing options of their potential purchase.

bjbird2 · February 2006

The March 2006 issue of Consumer Reports ranks the Acura TL first and VW Passat 3.6 second, out of 23 Family Sedans Over $25K.
The Passat is not check-marked, probably because it's a new model.
The Accord Hybrid is 4th, Passat 2.0T 5th, Camry 6th, Accord EX V6 7th, Fusion 8th, Milan 9th, Altima 13th, Mazda6 15th.

backy · February 2006

I just saw a commercial for the Fusion. It was a big production, lots of special effects. The gist of it is that the Fusion is being brought into this giant complex someplace in the desert/badlands for its grand unveiling. It is accompanied by a platoon of engineers. The thing is all wrapped up, for secrecy, until it reaches the center of the giant building. But the whole thing turns out to be a teaser! The actual Fusion is never shown! Only the launch date is shown on the screen: 2-5-06, or Super Bowl Sunday.

If you haven't guessed by now, this was not an ad for the Ford Fusion. It was an ad for the Gillette Fusion. Okay, so the names are the same, big deal. But the thing I found truly amazing, and why I even bother to mention it here, is that this Gillette Fusion has five blades! Now think about it--what car has five metallic, like-sized bands stretched across its prow, and has even been compared to a razor? The Ford Fusion! This is either the most incredible coincidence in modern mass marketing history, or Ford and Gillette have a really big cooperative marketing program going on.

tenpin288 · February 2006

this Gillette Fusion has five blades

Oh, great! Now I can cut my face five times faster! :sick:

jdeib · February 2006

"This is either the most incredible coincidence in modern mass marketing history, or Ford and Gillette have a really big cooperative marketing program going on."

Let's just hope that the Ford isn't as disposable as the Gillette.

Unfortunately, the last Ford products in my family were. (A Taurus and a Sable that developed leprosy at 50,000 miles. (Everything fell off)) :P

driverdm · February 2006

Greetings all. As you all know I have been an avid Ford Fusion fan. No longer is it on my buying list. I am disappointed with Ford as a car company. They say they are going to pull out all the stops and then give us peanuts. The news lately has really hampered my view of my favorite American car company. First they introduce the Expedition that is not ready to go toe to toe with the new Yukon design wise, then they cancel the Ford GT (An American icon) and the Sport Trac Adrenaline (something to get excited about). Then the rumors of the imploded SVT team swirl (bye bye Fusion SVT_ and then came the straw that broke the camel's back. They announced the new MKZ, previously known as Lincoln Zephyr and stated the the Fusion would not get the 3.5 this year. To throw further salt in my wounds, the new MKZ does not have manu-shift. How do you have 250 plus horses and not manu-shift I do not know. Every other manufacturer, including the big bull Toyota is offering it in everything. Look at the new Camry SE for an example. Ford does not offer it in one of their vehicles. And why not pull out the stops and give the Fusion the 3.5? It is built in the same plant as the Zephyr/MKZ. Wait till next year when the V6 comparison is done and you have the new Camry turning out 269hp, the new Accord that has at least 250hp since the current Accord has that, the Sonata with 236hp, the new Sebring with 255hp. Bold innovation? I think bold ignorance fits better. To "win back the American road way" you cannot have a driver's car that is the slowest in it's segment. That is common sense. You have to offer everything the competition does and a little more. Maybe just a centimeter more, but something more non the less. The Fusion would have been equal with the 3.5 and manu-shift with its styling giving it a foot on the competition. For all the Ford people that monitor the boards, tell Bill Ford when he gets serious please give me a call.

chrisford · February 2006

I am with you man. Ford talks a lot of big talk but can't seem to quite back it up. Like you, I am a Ford fan and I plan on getting into a Fusion sometime in the future. But, come on Ford, you need to try harder, like the Avis commercial says. I may have to jump ship and go with the new Saturn.

bokonon1 · February 2006

Driverdm --

Ford isn't making these choices to insult you or rub salt in your wounds. Ford is having a difficult period. These are business choices -- which they are making due to scarce product resources, overcapacity and falling sales. What Ford is saying is that it doesn't have the money or sales projections to do an SVT version of the Fusion right away, and that the company doesn't have enough 3.5 liter engines to go around just yet.

Also, I think that the Fusion should be considered on its own merits, not based on the rest of the Ford product line-up. Be fair. Why slam the Fusion based on the Expedition's competitiveness with the Yukon?

While some of these product decisions are disappointing, if Ford is losing money on cars like the GT, they can't afford to keep producing them as a vanity project. Same with the Sport Trac Adrenaline, which sounded interesting but probably was the wrong vehicle for the market just now.

And -- no, the Fusion is NOT the "slowest" sedan in its segment. Perhaps it has the least announced horsepower of that group, but that doesn't make it "slow." These horsepower wars are sort of like the battle to have the most trunkspace -- it is getting a bit ridiculous, and isn't necessarily leading to better cars or better designs. I prefer a well-executed engine with a broad, flat power curve to an engine which is built for great horsepower numbers -- but all at the upper end (like, ahem, lots of Honda products). Or consider the Nissan Altima's torque steer issues. Or what will likely be durability problems with the Sonata's manumatic (as a car magazine found out, don't get careless and spill a soda on the shift gate, or you'll kill it!) Ford can't afford those sorts of glitches. They'll get crucified by the press. And they know full well what is keeping most people away from their products isn't performance -- it is the perception about quality, left over from the Explorer debacle and the botched product introductions in the late 1990's.

Bottom line is -- you should probably write to Bill Ford and tell him what you think. But you should NOT take the Fusion off your list. It is a darned good car as it is, even without the 3.5 engine or a manumatic shifter. Drive it and see. It is well executed, and is fully competitive.

Cheers!

-- Bokonon

Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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