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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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Comments

  • jimmy81jimmy81 Posts: 170
    What! You didn't buy a Sonata?

    Actually 06TLs are selling for $31K and offer a lot more options over the SE. Both are super vehicles tho. The soon to be replaced G35 is $35K.

    I admit. The Sonata LX is a great value. Just don't like the looks.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    What! You didn't buy a Sonata?

    Actually 06TLs are selling for $31K and offer a lot more options over the SE. Both are super vehicles tho. The soon to be replaced G35 is $35K.

    I admit. The Sonata LX is a great value. Just don't like the looks.


    He apparently wanted options that the Sonata doesn't even offer (i.e. Navi, XM[does the Hyundai offer XM?], 268 hp, 6-speed auto, better handling package (SE trim), and was willing to pay for them.
  • cxccxc Posts: 122
    Fsowirles:

    Could you update the transmission performance (six speed auto) of 2007 Camry SE V6 in about three months on this forum?
  • bjbird2bjbird2 Posts: 647
    I can still remember when people were saying that Toyota would never come close to GM in sales numbers, that Toyota products were synonymous with junk, made out of old US beer cans. Now Toyota has just about caught up with GM's numbers in the US, and GM is on the verge of bankruptcy.
    Times change, and I wouldn't be surprised to see Hyundai as a sales leader in the next 10 years. They're making progress faster than the Japanese did in this country.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    I can still remember when people were saying that Toyota would never come close to GM in sales numbers, that Toyota products were synonymous with junk, made out of old US beer cans. Now Toyota has just about caught up with GM's numbers in the US, and GM is on the verge of bankruptcy.
    Times change, and I wouldn't be surprised to see Hyundai as a sales leader in the next 10 years. They're making progress faster than the Japanese did in this country.

    Yes, but look at how far behind GM already was ten years ago. GM wasn't leading quality or reliability. (or design and engineering, for that matter, that was the Europeans). I'm not saying Hyundai won't be a force to reckon with, I just think (again, this is just my little brain) that in ten years maybe Hyundai will be what Toyota was in the late 1990s; a big player in the market, but not one of the dominant three. I think GM is TRYING to move in the right direction, and Chrysler has had a great turnaround lately, but Ford leaves me nervous with its lackluster Mercury and Lincoln brands.

    I'm thinking of this type of hypothetical look in 2016:

    1. GM - Toyota running neck and neck
    2. Chrysler a strong number two (assuming quality issues are getting resolved now)
    3. Nissan (has more financial capital than Honda, but near-equals in engineering
    4. Honda
    5. Hyundai

    **NOTE: This is just an 18 year old's musings...not an official estimate.
  • jhinscjhinsc Posts: 399
    Hyundai made a huge leap forward with the Sonata and Azera.

    The Sonata's exterior styling is good, and matches the current Honda's and Toyota's best today. The problem being though, Toyota just revamped the Camry and Honda will do so with the Accord in model year 2008. The Sonata's interior looks like something GM came up with, which is why I crossed it off my list. The seats were not as comfortable as the Accord's and the overall interior scheme came across as a little bland. A bland interior and lack of seat comfort is also a problem with the Camry.

    The Azera is very good IMO, but it's lacking a few bells and whistles that you can find on the Avalon. The mpg's is not as good, and the crash test results were a little disappointing. It's exterior styling is not what I would call leading edge, but it's okay. But I did think the interior was gorgeous!

    I don't believe Hyundai will be able to keep as wide a price advantage for very long because they're shifting production over here, where Toyota and Honda have been building for awhile now. Also, Honda and Toyota will certainly not take this threat lying down. They will be as innovative and flexible as possible to keep ahead of any competitor out there, including GM, Ford, and Hyundai, not to mention any new Chinese automakers that want a piece of the auto market. I bought an 06 Accord for it's overall style, value, and comfort, but I look forward to what Hyundai will bring us in the future. :shades:
  • bobadbobad Posts: 1,587
    They will be as innovative and flexible as possible to keep ahead of any competitor out there
    ----------------------------------

    Agreed, but not if they let the bread box styling from their new division bleed over. Toyota's styling department needs a little new blood. Just a little to keep from going stagnant or weird. If their styling sucks, it doesn't matter how great their quality is. Honda had better watch it too. Their pickup truck looks like an Isuzu.
  • kwonc71kwonc71 Posts: 245
    Last month sales shows Sonata sold about half of Camry sold. Half of the most selling car. Most of Sonata sold were GLS or LX. You still think Hyundai is not taking Toyota's sales away? For the price of V6 Sonata, people could get LE Camry or LX Accord. I bet you that by this summer, Honda and Toyota marketing main staffs will have serious meetings about how to not to lose sale to Hyundai.
  • jhinscjhinsc Posts: 399
    Agreed, but not if they let the bread box styling from their new division bleed over. Toyota's styling department needs a little new blood. Just a little to keep from going stagnant or weird. If their styling sucks, it doesn't matter how great their quality is. Honda had better watch it too. Their pickup truck looks like an Isuzu.

    I would have to agree there too. I look forward to Honda's restyle of the Ridgeline into something a little sleeker looking, rather than the blob of metal it currently looks like. Same goes for Toyota's upcoming new Tundra, it looks weird! :shades:
  • jhinscjhinsc Posts: 399
    I bet you that by this summer, Honda and Toyota marketing main staffs will have serious meetings about how to not to lose sale to Hyundai.

    The markets have a way leveling the playing field, and sooner or later, Toyota and Honda will try to do just that. Poor GM, they keep trying, but can't even find the playing field to begin with, and Ford has been attempting to do great things lately, but still keep coming up short.
  • kwonc71kwonc71 Posts: 245
    Last month sales shows Sonata sold about half of Camry sold. Half of the most selling car. Most of Sonata sold were GLS or LX. You still think Hyundai is not taking Toyota's sales away? For the price of V6 Sonata, people could get LE Camry or LX Accord. I bet you that by this summer, Honda and Toyota marketing main staffs will have serious meetings about "How to not to lose more sales to Hyundai anymore". As a Korean, I know Hyundai will get what they want. Just watched the tv program about Hyundai developing new engine on the 06 Sonatas. Most of engineers slept 4 hours to 5 hours a day, 7 days week. Took them 15 years to develop first engine from scratch. Another 5 years to develop new 2.4L and 3.3L. Now, Korea is one of only 6 country has their own engine in the whole world. When Hyundai asked Chrysler to check out their new engine to sell loyalty, several Chrysler engineers spent weeks to study about it. At the end of report back to Chrysler's headquarters, an engineer wrote " Even Mercedes can't make the engine like this one". That's Y Hyundai's engine called the World Engine that Chrysler and Mitsu buy nowadays. It could be way cheaper and easier to buy engines from other company like Ford does now. They would not take short cut, so they know about their own engines, so they can solve the problems quickly as possible. Early 80's Hyundai using Mitsu engine and Transmission gave them enough damage that needed 20+ years to recover. I am confident.
  • jhinscjhinsc Posts: 399
    Hyundai just needs to work on their fuel efficiency, then they'll be the one's to beat!
  • giantkillergiantkiller Posts: 273
    This is what I call "pipe dream". Honda and Toyota will have a meeting on how not to lose market share to Hyundai you say? LOLROTF! If you know your numbers go look at the market share. Honda and Toyota are not losing market share to anybody, they are gaining.
    Even Mercedes can't make and engine like the one Hyundai did you say? Are you kidding me? Hyundai made one good engine (3.3L) and all of a sudden they're the best out there as far as engine tech goes. LOLROTF!

    And then you blamed Mitsubishi for doing Hyundai a good favor? I dont think you would even have a car industry if it wasnt for Mitsubishi. Hey, I was born and raised somewhere in Asia and have been exposed to Hyundai and mitsubishi in the 80's. For your information, the problem of Hyundai back then was not the powertrain but the build quality. Their cars back then was somewhat built by a backyard manufacturer who uses hammer and metal scissor to build body parts. Suspension, exterior body, interior are so horribly done you wouldnt waste you money on, thats Hyundai. As a korean you should be ashamed of yourself. The whole foundation of your engine technology was given by Mitsubishi. They gave Hyundai the rights to copy and manufacture their engine. Ingrate.
  • giantkillergiantkiller Posts: 273
    I dont have to read your post again. You can feed your hearsay and nonsense to Hyundai people but not me. Been there done that.
  • kwonc71kwonc71 Posts: 245
    Read my post again, that's what an American engineer wrote on his report back to Chrysler's headquarters. Hyundai built 2.4L engine first then 3.3L. I am talking with the fact, you talking with anger for no reason. It's funny you got upset with my post and took it as personal matter. You sounds like a Mitsu ship maker who lost the job because Hyundai eating up their business. I understand, Mitsu was #1 heavy duty ship builder a decade ago, now it's half size of Hyundais. Hyundai also sell more cars than Mitsu. I feel your pain too. :P Come down my friend. You don't have to argue now because the time will tell.
  • giantkillergiantkiller Posts: 273
    You crack me up! Oh well, good thing you're not a Nissan fan. I'm beginning to like Mitsubishi because of you. Oh by the way , how was Hyundai at WRC? Still eating dust? If your Hyundai so great, maybe they could challenge Mercedes, BMW, Honda, Ferrari, Renault, Toyota at F1. Well if what your're saying is true, that a Chrysler engineer, which is basically a Mercedes engineer commented that eve Mercedes can't make an engine as good as Hyundai by all means compete in one of these races and showcase youre technologies. The only race that Hyundai can win is the race to depreciation and low price. I know the game theyre playing. Keep the price down, give long warranties , nevermind the profit. We'll atract customers and hopefully keep them, then later on increase the price. Give predictions that theyre gonna catch up and overtake Toyota. Two things that differentiate Toyota today and GM in the 70's. GM was sleeping on the job back then. Toyota is on its toes today. In fact they are continuosly improving. Lots of cash lots of good product, and selling well for a profit. Lets see now whose gonna be selling cookware 10 years from now.
  • fsowirlesfsowirles Posts: 195
    For your information, the problem of Hyundai back then was not the powertrain but the build quality. Their cars back then was somewhat built by a backyard manufacturer who uses hammer and metal scissor to build body parts. Suspension, exterior body, interior are so horribly done you wouldnt waste you money on, thats Hyundai.

    Anyone rememebr the movie 'Gung-Ho' with Michael Keaton? :P
  • meateatermeateater Posts: 123
    I know the game theyre playing. Keep the price down, give long warranties , nevermind the profit

    Its apparent that Hyundai is doing this. Would you buy one if they were prices the same as the CamCord's?

    The people in SK bear the brunt of a highly subsidized, government controlled company like Hyundai, where the success of the compant in tantamount to the success of the country. If Hyundai suffers, the country suffers. Back to eating dogs and cats.
  • goodegggoodegg Posts: 905
    Its apparent that Hyundai is doing this

    It is apparent that Hyundai is lowballing, but that's what the customer wants! By selling a customer their car they keep Toyota/Honda/Nissan etc from getting that sale. If the Sonata was priced where the CamCord is yes, they wouldn't sell as many. I don't think Hyundai's 'profit' is measured the same as the other car companies since the company is very closely held by the South Korean government.

    But I think the car market is ever changing, and what works today may be folly in 6 years. Look at SUVs. Hyundai's lack of hybrids could really hurt them, especially with $6/gallon gas.
  • bobadbobad Posts: 1,587
    Giantkiller: You obviously haven't driven or even examined a Sonata. I have never seen such body panel fit. Not in Mercedes, not in any other car I have examined. The panel lines are about 3/32" (if that!), and don't vary by more than .005". Slide under the car, and you see state-of-the-art multi-link suspension. The 3.3 V6 runs like a fine watch, cradled in hydraulic mounts. I have to check the instrument cluster to see if it's running, because I certainly can't hear or feel it idling. Making a quick runup from 0-80 mph is a pure joy. The engine is strong, gutsy, and has a sweet growl above 4000 RPM. Go treat yourself man. Go drive one, and I think your opinions will change... or at least have some credibility. Toyota is worried, by their own admission.
  • bobadbobad Posts: 1,587
    It is apparent that Hyundai is lowballing,

    I don't think you understand. Hyundai has a spanking-new $1 billion assembly plant down in Alabama. This plant is probably the most automated and most efficient in the entire world. Hyundai is probably making just as much profit (or maybe more!) than their competitors.

    I think Hyundai knew they couldn't compete with Toyota on their terms. So, they figured out how to build a car with the same quality and features as Toyota, at a $4000-$6000 lower price. They were so confident they could do it they spent ~$2 billion to develop and assemble the Sonata.
  • kwonc71kwonc71 Posts: 245
    Check out that giantkiller's posts. 100% of his post were anti, negative, and cursing Hyundai. He either work for a Toyota dealership or just a Japanese who can't stand Japan losing business to Korea in many field. He will never buy or even test drive Hyundai because Hyundai makes him sick. We have to name him "HYUNDAI KILLER" instead. He should kill his anger first too.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,728
    Hyundai just needs to work on their fuel efficiency, then they'll be the one's to beat!

    Sonata I4 manual: 24/34
    Sonata I4 automatic: 24/33
    Sonata V6 automatic: 20/30

    Accord I4 manual: 26/34
    Accord I4 automatic: 24/34
    Accord V6 automatic: 20/29

    Camry I4 manual: 24/34
    Camry I4 automatic: 24/33
    Camry V6 automatic: 22/31

    It looks to me that Hyundai is fully competitive in fuel economy in the mid-sized sedan class, which we are discussing here. Where Honda and Toyota currently have an advantage is that they offer 5-speed automatics (vs. 4) on their I4s and the Camry has a 6-speed automatic (vs. 5) on the V6; those should be good for additional fuel economy, but as you can see, the Sonata manages to match or come very close to the Camcord in fuel economy even with the disparity in gearing.
  • bobadbobad Posts: 1,587
    It looks to me that Hyundai is fully competitive in fuel economy in the mid-sized sedan class, which we are discussing here.
    -------------------------

    Even if the Sonata's mileage was 2-3 MPG lower, it's also $5000 cheaper to buy. You can buy a lot of miles for $5000! ;)
  • fsowirlesfsowirles Posts: 195
    The Sonata is a decent vehicle, and a good value...but be real. Best panel fit of any make....you must not get out much (or sell Hyundai). My neighbor (as I said before) has a new Sonata and I have had the opportunity to drive and examine up close. I was impressed for Hyundai, but it is no BMW or MB. It isn't even VW/AUDI good on fit/finish. They are a top performer in the fit/finish category for thier segment, but don't exagerrate as muhc as you did.

    And as for the engine. It is smooth, but far from so quiet that you need to check the guage cluster to see if it is running. It is also far from gutsy. I think it was Consumer Reports that dinged them for not having enough pep in the V6 and the handlign was far from nimble.

    So to summarize...It is decent, even good....but let's not lose our heads here ;)
  • lightfootfllightfootfl Posts: 442
    W H A T ????? Lack of pep ??? Handling not nimble ??
    Hey, try it, you'll like it.
    Don't let others influence what you can find out first hand. Also, the finish and fit is better than a lot of the others on the road.
  • goodegggoodegg Posts: 905
    So spending $1 billion on an assembly plant makes them cost efficient? OK but who's paying for the plant? SK gov't? We'll never know. And we'll never know Hyundai's true profit. Same with anything Chinese. Like they'd disclose real financial data. But who cares?
  • goodegggoodegg Posts: 905
    Brother - go drive other cars. Most have great engines and suspension, or even minimal 'panel gaps'. These are givens in today's vehicles. What's not a given is a hard earned reputation of quality and reliability that Honda and Toyota have earned over many years. The Sonata's not the space shuttle or something.
  • pocono35pocono35 Posts: 89
    Their cars back then was somewhat built by a backyard manufacturer who uses hammer and metal scissor to build body parts. Suspension, exterior body, interior are so horribly done you wouldnt waste you money on, thats Hyundai

    I disagree with these comments and have 5 ownership experiences with Hyundai (4 with a Sonata and 1 Elantra wagon) to dispute, no doubt, a non-ownership experience:

    1990 Sonata: Drove it 150,000 km. Major Issues: an electrical issue solved and replacement of a catyalitic converter all under warranty. This was the first Sonata built and was far more reliable than many 'critics' reported. I believe MotorTrend had this car on one of their covers in 1989 and were lauding it for its value due to room, build quality and engineering. Hyundai used Mitsu designed engines and trannies then.

    1992 Sonata: Drove it 190,000kms Major issues: none.

    1995 Sonata: Still on road in Canada with 300,000kms. Major issues: Tranny replaced under warranty at 170,000kms(Hyundai offered a 5 year unlimited mileage warranty in Canada on this car, like Europe) and head gasket issue at 250,000 miles.

    I am quite sure, now having owned a Maxima and Pilot that these early Hyundai's had some early issues that young car makers face, largely due to weeding out vendors and eliminating some inferior Mitsu powertrain components. I will dispute the 'hammer and scissor' comments however as purely ignorant of any real experience or knowledge.

    My Dad's ownership experience with a 2002 Sonata was nearly perfect. He ONLY replaced rear bushings, under warranty, and drove it 85,000 miles.

    My brother, a doctoral student in Lexington, KY, drives a 1998 Elantra Wagon. He has nearly 200,000 miles on it and has replaced a sensor and rear struts on the hatch. He recently told me that this is a better car than his previous Toyota Tercel in durability and reliabilty and far better than his wifes Saturn, with 70,000 miles, that is 'falling apart'.

    Reasonable people who understand the automotive market understand Hyundai/Kia couldn't put nearly 800,000 cars on the road with this warranty if they were fixing them regularly. Also, recent reports from Hyundai indicated a huge savings on warranty claims due to lower than anticipated claims.
  • bobadbobad Posts: 1,587
    So spending $1 billion on an assembly plant makes them cost efficient? OK but who's paying for the plant? SK gov't? We'll never know. And we'll never know Hyundai's true profit. Same with anything Chinese. Like they'd disclose real financial data. But who cares?
    ----------------

    Excuse me, I thought we were comparing cars, not counting beans. I absolutely couldn't care less about who pays for what. What really matters is that my car was a great buy, a great car, and more of my money stayed in the USA than my 2nd choice, the Mazda6 Ford Fusion. ;)
This discussion has been closed.