Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread
This discussion has been closed.
Popular New Cars
Popular Used Sedans
Popular Used SUVs
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
if I was on a budget, the Sonata would be my pick; it trounces competitors in many key areas, and categories relevant to my needs
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
For the sake of argument, let's say the Camry and Accord are, on balance, better cars than the Sonata.
But you have got to ask yourself, are the Camry and Accord $6000-$10,000 better? Are they worth paying a $150-$250 higher monthly note?
There's always a better car just $5K higher in the price brackets. Where do you stop?
I would like to do a test. Give these editors $20,000 and have them do the research and then go to the dealerships and actually buy a vehicle. I would bet that most would come back with a Sonata when using real money.
This is the basic audience and it will remain so with the CE/LE in the high teens/ low $20K range.
But it now can appeal to a wider range of buyers.
The basic SE V6 which will likely be a big hit will be more in the $24K range, not $30K, with all the positive driving experiences listed in the comparo.
The TCH just above this will grab a different segment, then the XLE V6 will blend into the Avy which blends into the ES350.
At every $1500 budget point there is a great option to keep buyers coming in. Buyers often have a preset range in their minds when looking. Frankly a $30K buyer simply will not look at a $17K vehicle. It's out of the question. This is another great recognition by Toyota marketing.
But if you are going to ask $30K then the vehicle has to be at least competitive in that range. The XLE V6 may actually come in last in a comparo with the 3-series, Passat, Audi, Avy, ES350, TL but it will be competitive.
If there were only normal price differences between the basic 4 models - which is likley to happen soon - where would the analysis lead you?
Say:
$21000 LE Camry
$20850 LX Accord
$20250 Sonata/Altima/Fusion (4c )
This is the heart of the midsized market. It's not exciting but it's where the buyers are. Except for the Fusion/Milan and Malibu/G6 all the models normally are 4c.
Inquiring minds want to know...
Hyundai still has to discount and extend their warranties to get past their old self.
The name of the game (unless you are a rich car magazine)is bang for the buck. Bang = all good attributes in a car, including reliability and intangibles such as status. Realistically, the reliability gap has narrowed among foreign name plates until it's not worth an extra $50 a month on that payment. Accord and Camry used to have 2x the reliability of their domestic competitors. Near perfect is hard to improve upon, so their competitors have naturally gained on them. But that's another topic...
~alpha
The Camry and Sonata were very similar at the options I wanted in terms of build quality and performance. The only reason I even considered a Camry was because of the name. It is true Hyundai has to charge less to attract buyers, but I love that now I am an owner. After 7K of trouble free miles I am very satisfied with my decision. The most I would have paid over the Sonata for a Camry was maybe a $500 difference, but not anything close to $4K.
At some time soon the top management is going to want a return from the product managers on all the investments made in putting the Sonata solidly in the US market. It'a a waiting game on the part of HonYota. Presently the American buyer benefits in being able to buy a worldclass vehicle at a fantasic price, but IMO it's temporary.
While not being complacent I believe that Hon/Yota know what the cost is of building a midsize auto here. Sonata prices will have to come up to at least the Altima level, it's just good business. For the US buyer, buy now while the vehicle is priced as it is.
Here is another view that I used to use in my past career. Buyers used to say that they could buy 'x' amount of steel at prices 10% below mine. I knew what that competitor(s) had available in quantity. I would 'encourage' the bargain shoppers to grab all the steel that they could at that price because it was good for them - but also for me. By doing this they were taking all the low-priced comptition out of the market. It's a parallel situation here. HonYota with superior reps and now superior products may be directing the low-priced buyers to Hyundai. This is good for these buyers but it's also good for HonYota because Hyundai is making upwards of $4000 - 7000 less profit on every vehicle than HonYota.
It's a strategy of 'impovershing' Hyundai by making sure that they get little or no money for their vehicles. Hyundai as a huge, well run company knows what is going on as well. Is it realistic to think that they like being pushed into the back of the kitchen forced to eat the scraps HonYota leave? Not likely.
What Hyundai is doing now is undercutting the competition to gain market share and a good name in the buying community. I do agree with you that Hyundai will eventually raise prices as their reputation catches up to their product. Hopefully they will keep their $1,000 owner loyalty rebate as I will be a repeat customer. I have been overly enjoyed with my Sonata and me and my wife will probably add the 2008 Sante Fe to our lineup if that vehicle does as good as I hope in safety and the like.
It is this kind of attitude of contempt that turned me away from HoYota dealerships years ago.
If they tested one w/similar equip then this new sedan comparison on Edmunds would have some validity.
BUT, because these people here on Edmunds picked a car $7,000 or 30.4% MORE EXPENSIVE THAN FUSION as first place just goes to show that this was not a comparison test, this was a joke. They would have picked the toyota regardless, even if it had 3 wheels.
Once you get to a stagerring 30% price increase, the class of cars is changed. Thats it. I bet many people shopping for the 3rd and 4th place cars cannot afford the 1rst and 2nd place cars, as tested.
I had more respect for Edmunds. I don't care if the new Camry can fly, cook, and jump rope, at a 30% price premium, you are in a different class, and should be compared to higher priced cars.
The price of the Fusion was $25,650 and the Camry was $30,840. Thats a $5200 price difference, not 7 grand. Get a grip and/or learn how to subtract. The Fusion lacks a lot of features at that price as well, including Bluetooth, Stability Control, Navigation, SmartKey, rear seat vents, rear window sunshade, 440 Watt JBL, etc...
~alpha
At some time soon the top management is going to want a return from the product managers on all the investments made in putting the Sonata solidly in the US market.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I don't think the low prices are temporary. I believe Hyundai intends to make their living at prices $4-5K below Accord and Camry. Their new plant in Alabama has world-class automation and efficiency, and a lean workforce to make the low prices possible. The facility probably has tax concessions from the city and state to keep costs down as well.
Hyundai would have been dumb to try and compete on equal terms with such great cars in such a crowded field.
Money,,, the great equalizer!
It is true the Sonata has its price range increased somewhat compared to the outgoing model, but you are getting a car that is so much better. On the other hand, the Camry is also priced higher (V6 trims, to be specific) vs. its outgoing model, and the same as well, an improvement over the outgoing model. In the end, I am sorry to tell you but your theory will continue to be one, until Hyundai makes an announcement that would significantly up the price on the Sonata (to Camry level)...but I don't see that happening anytime soon...sorry
The Camry might compete with the ES 350, but that is because it is the same car. I have never once seen the ES350 compared to an A6, 5 series BMW, or any other performance cars. It simply cannot compete.
No one wants to be considered 3rd rate, especially if the product is good and competitive. At some point someone at Hyundai will put his foot down and say 'Let's get a return on our investment'.
The V6 was quicker than the 3-series which is what I put in my post. I also said that while the Camry might finish last it was competitive.
Driving? You might want to take an SE V6 out and push it -if allowed. The big problem as noted in the review is that the VSC will kick in very early and take some of the 'slip-sliding' enjoyment away.
The Fusion at present is 3rd rate with an underpowered V6, questionable crash test results and a lack of upscale features. The Sonata puts the Fusion in 4th.
Where this top-of-the-line Camry fits is just as you said.. it's a Lexus ES350... at a discount. It does compare to the entry-lux versions I mentioned.
In the meantime, Hyundai is grabbing a lot of buyers. Who do you think they are most likely to turn to when it's time to buy that next vehicle? Not Toyota or Honda. Hyundai is not just grabbing sales now, but for the future.
This car came up short modeling the camcord? When this car is obliously modeled mostly on audi a6 and lexus 330? I mean where do these guys get their info, or do they scheme it up like what i think. Hyundai even stated they stripped apart the audi a6 and lexus 330 , why would you want to relate to camcord when u can use those cars as a ideal car to make instead?
YEsterday i test drove the 07 camry, since my friend is an assistant manager at a toyota here. And this car hasn't improved much at all from last years car , driving dynamics wise(SE version is really not sporty at all). The interior is nicer, though the plastic feels cheap and doesn't feel buttoned down, the styling looks alot better in pictures than in person too. Will it sell? of course, is it worth it? maybe if it was 3 k less. Camry basically has reliability and with that good resale but thats all this car has .
Personally where the camry has only evolved(it still uses struts, just barely good size discs for brakes, i mean just that ridiculous) where the sonata has revolved the way mid size cars should be made(multi link set up, bigger brakes, generous everything). Its styling is gorgeous(fusion is better?) , and everything else is above exceptional. Hyundai definitely hit a home run in regards to building a mid size car to the priorities consumer would like in a mid size car, no less, but just pure efficiency when u put in the price.
The price issue is definitely there but what this Gen6 has done is put more cost pressure on Hyundai, Ford and Honda soon. Now to just reach the Camry's level the others have to add more features, a more powerful engine in Ford's, case and keep the refinement and durability.... then make a hybrid version with all of that.
Another parallel? In the 80's the Reagen Admin broke the back of the competition ( USSR ) by outspending it on high technology. As the review said the other 3 now are about equal to the Gen5 Camry. The Accord has 18 mo's to leap over this Gen. The Fusion and Sonata are pretty much set for the next 4 years.
If you think the Sonata is set for the next four years, you have a big surprise coming. They have already moved up the changes for 2007 to next month. They will have a mid-gen refresh that could be a full restyle, if they think it is needed (that is what the last Sonata mid-gen refresh was). Toyota does not stand pat, nor will Hyundai and other competitors. If you think the other companies will look at the new Camry and say, "Oh, woe unto us! We are doomed!!" you are in for another surprise.
There's no doubt the Accord and Camry are fine cars (I've owned them before), as are the Civic and Corolla, all with a well-earned and established reputation. But, in the end, I bought a Hyundai. And, after several months of ownership, I'm happy I did.
The way this car feels, and is put together, I don't have any concerns for the long-term. Hyundai may just have made me a convert!
I go back to my original point that this is good for the US buyers at present but how long will Hyundai continue to add and improve and gain nothing monetarily from it. It's just not the way business is done. Especially when they see Toyota and Honda reaping $4000-8000 additional on every vehicle while still outselling the Sonata by 2/1 or more.
I, and Edmunds, disagree. The Camry actually placed last very recently when testing the outgoing model. The Hyundai won.
This then is a whole 'nother situation. Despite it's improving rep, are buyers going to laydown $27K for a top of the line Hyundai vs $30K for a similar CamCord. At $15K the Hyundai is a good value over a $21K CamCord, and the risk is relatively small. At $27K with all kinds of new gadgetry and sophisticated features that's quite a lot more risk to ask of a buyer on product just emerging from a bad rap. In 5-10 years very possibly.
One point not mentioned in the whole comparo by Edmunds or any of the posters here.... In total we are talking about 17 total vehicle sales in the entire US ( OK that's an exageration ). But these top-of-the-line models are a very small part of the whole picture.
That is about $5K cheaper than an Accord and probably at least $7K cheaper than a Camry. That is why the SOnata is such a great value. It is really close in performance and quality for thousands cheaper. I'm not saying anything bad about an Accord or Camry, but you can't ignore the unbelievable deal you can get on a Sonata.
Sometimes I don't know if you are serious or not. "New gagetry"? Hyundai has been offering factory nav systems on even their compact cars in other countries for years. The trick suspension on the Sonata has been available since the fall of 2004. XM is hardly "new". Funny how it's "new gagetry" on a Hyundai, but all tried-and-true stuff on the all-new Camry.
You may have noticed in the Azera discussion that there are quite a few buyers willing to plunk down $28-30k for a Hyundai, with its "bad rap" and all, and all its "new gagetry", right now--without much in the way of rebates and discounts.
I don't see Hyundai recalling 1 million of its cars for transmission problems like Honda did with its Accords and its "new gaget" tranny a few years ago. Where is the risk, which you as a Toyota salesperson would like to make us believe is there?
It's good that the two stores are not close to each other.
Is there a risk in a $27K Hyundai? Maybe not based on current experiences, but does the public perceive a risk? I'd say definitely in the near term. The Azera may overcome some of these reservations.
any idea what the changes are?
S
Where is the risk, which you as a Toyota salesperson would like to make us believe is there?
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Time is also past for the 06 Sonata to lose the "new model" rap. The car debuted nearly a year ago, and has been rock solid ever since. There were only a few niggling problems reported, and most are already taken care of on the assembly line.