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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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Comments

  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
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    if I was on a budget, the Sonata would be my pick; it trounces competitors in many key areas, and categories relevant to my needs

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    For the sake of argument, let's say the Camry and Accord are, on balance, better cars than the Sonata.

    But you have got to ask yourself, are the Camry and Accord $6000-$10,000 better? Are they worth paying a $150-$250 higher monthly note?

    There's always a better car just $5K higher in the price brackets. Where do you stop?
  • 94hawkskin94hawkskin Member Posts: 116
    That's a great point Tenpin288. Most people are that buy Camry's and Accords buy the LE I4 and LX I4 models. When most people that buy SOnata's buy a V6 model for less than their I4 counterparts. A vehicle that costs $5K more better win a comparison.

    I would like to do a test. Give these editors $20,000 and have them do the research and then go to the dealerships and actually buy a vehicle. I would bet that most would come back with a Sonata when using real money.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Edmunds already did something like that last time--but they used $22,000 as their bar. The results were quite different. It's good to see comparisons done different ways. Some people want the best car in the class and don't mind paying for it, others are looking for the best value.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Well it's been my basic commuter for 16 yrs with 500,000+ miles on 4 of them ( I skipped the Gen5 because the styling was just 'ehhh' to me ). It is/has been the basic family sedan and commuter for those value driving experience somewhere in the region of preparing taxes.

    This is the basic audience and it will remain so with the CE/LE in the high teens/ low $20K range.

    But it now can appeal to a wider range of buyers.
    The basic SE V6 which will likely be a big hit will be more in the $24K range, not $30K, with all the positive driving experiences listed in the comparo.

    The TCH just above this will grab a different segment, then the XLE V6 will blend into the Avy which blends into the ES350.

    At every $1500 budget point there is a great option to keep buyers coming in. Buyers often have a preset range in their minds when looking. Frankly a $30K buyer simply will not look at a $17K vehicle. It's out of the question. This is another great recognition by Toyota marketing.

    But if you are going to ask $30K then the vehicle has to be at least competitive in that range. The XLE V6 may actually come in last in a comparo with the 3-series, Passat, Audi, Avy, ES350, TL but it will be competitive.
  • tenpin288tenpin288 Member Posts: 804
    That was a good comparison, but what I would like to see is a test of each model's best selling version regardless of an artificially imposed price boundary (though I would bet that there would be a pretty good price variance involved). By taking each models' best selling version, we get to see what the majority are actually buying and if the Honyota buyers are actually willing to spend more or are having to spending more to get what they want compared to the Sonata/Fusion, et al. It would be interesting to compare option choices/sacrifices made in purchasing the most popular versions. And that is my .02. ;)
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Let's pose a question in reverse....

    If there were only normal price differences between the basic 4 models - which is likley to happen soon - where would the analysis lead you?

    Say:
    $21000 LE Camry
    $20850 LX Accord
    $20250 Sonata/Altima/Fusion (4c )

    This is the heart of the midsized market. It's not exciting but it's where the buyers are. Except for the Fusion/Milan and Malibu/G6 all the models normally are 4c.
  • tenpin288tenpin288 Member Posts: 804
    If that were the only thing to base my choice on, I would still look closely at the lower price points, if only because the extra money could be me some nice accessories. However, test drives, personal opinions, etc, all have to be considered in a choice of this magnitude. That is why I would like to see that test comparo of each model's best selling versions and also maybe the reasons each model is chosen by its' customers.

    Inquiring minds want to know... ;)
  • jimmy81jimmy81 Member Posts: 170
    The lower price of the Sonata vs. the CamCord is the only way Hyundai can sell the car at good levels.

    Hyundai still has to discount and extend their warranties to get past their old self.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    Unfortunately, the tail wags the dog. Most people set a monthly payment maximum and pick out a car that exceeds it by $50-$75. :)

    The name of the game (unless you are a rich car magazine)is bang for the buck. Bang = all good attributes in a car, including reliability and intangibles such as status. Realistically, the reliability gap has narrowed among foreign name plates until it's not worth an extra $50 a month on that payment. Accord and Camry used to have 2x the reliability of their domestic competitors. Near perfect is hard to improve upon, so their competitors have naturally gained on them. But that's another topic...
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    It was actually the December 2001 issue of Car and Driver that you are talking about, when the Accord LX V6 beat the Camry SE V6 for 1st, Altima SE V6 taking third-- that was the highest the Altima has place in a C/D comparo, ever.

    ~alpha
  • 94hawkskin94hawkskin Member Posts: 116
    The problem is there is not a normal price difference between the basic four models. There is at least a $4K difference and in some cases up to a $8K difference. If you take price out of the equation then I would have bought an 06 Camry. But for $4K less I got a Sonata.

    The Camry and Sonata were very similar at the options I wanted in terms of build quality and performance. The only reason I even considered a Camry was because of the name. It is true Hyundai has to charge less to attract buyers, but I love that now I am an owner. After 7K of trouble free miles I am very satisfied with my decision. The most I would have paid over the Sonata for a Camry was maybe a $500 difference, but not anything close to $4K.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    You are right that at $4000 price is a major ( only? ) consideration. My contention is that this situation is not likely to last for very long. Hyundai has no inherent low-cost advantage over it's main competititors.

    At some time soon the top management is going to want a return from the product managers on all the investments made in putting the Sonata solidly in the US market. It'a a waiting game on the part of HonYota. Presently the American buyer benefits in being able to buy a worldclass vehicle at a fantasic price, but IMO it's temporary.

    While not being complacent I believe that Hon/Yota know what the cost is of building a midsize auto here. Sonata prices will have to come up to at least the Altima level, it's just good business. For the US buyer, buy now while the vehicle is priced as it is.

    Here is another view that I used to use in my past career. Buyers used to say that they could buy 'x' amount of steel at prices 10% below mine. I knew what that competitor(s) had available in quantity. I would 'encourage' the bargain shoppers to grab all the steel that they could at that price because it was good for them - but also for me. By doing this they were taking all the low-priced comptition out of the market. It's a parallel situation here. HonYota with superior reps and now superior products may be directing the low-priced buyers to Hyundai. This is good for these buyers but it's also good for HonYota because Hyundai is making upwards of $4000 - 7000 less profit on every vehicle than HonYota.

    It's a strategy of 'impovershing' Hyundai by making sure that they get little or no money for their vehicles. Hyundai as a huge, well run company knows what is going on as well. Is it realistic to think that they like being pushed into the back of the kitchen forced to eat the scraps HonYota leave? Not likely.
  • 94hawkskin94hawkskin Member Posts: 116
    I doubt that HonYota is dumping their lower priced car owners to Hyundai. Everybody knows it is far cheaper to keep an existing customer than it is to attract new ones. The fact is that Hyundai is a lot better buy than the more expensive Honda and Toyota models for most people that do the research.

    What Hyundai is doing now is undercutting the competition to gain market share and a good name in the buying community. I do agree with you that Hyundai will eventually raise prices as their reputation catches up to their product. Hopefully they will keep their $1,000 owner loyalty rebate as I will be a repeat customer. I have been overly enjoyed with my Sonata and me and my wife will probably add the 2008 Sante Fe to our lineup if that vehicle does as good as I hope in safety and the like.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Is it realistic to think that they like being pushed into the back of the kitchen forced to eat the scraps HonYota leave?

    It is this kind of attitude of contempt that turned me away from HoYota dealerships years ago.
  • exalteddragon1exalteddragon1 Member Posts: 729
    Camry IS NOT IN THE SAME CLASS AS THE FUSION OR SONATA.

    If they tested one w/similar equip then this new sedan comparison on Edmunds would have some validity.

    BUT, because these people here on Edmunds picked a car $7,000 or 30.4% MORE EXPENSIVE THAN FUSION as first place just goes to show that this was not a comparison test, this was a joke. They would have picked the toyota regardless, even if it had 3 wheels.

    Once you get to a stagerring 30% price increase, the class of cars is changed. Thats it. I bet many people shopping for the 3rd and 4th place cars cannot afford the 1rst and 2nd place cars, as tested.

    I had more respect for Edmunds. I don't care if the new Camry can fly, cook, and jump rope, at a 30% price premium, you are in a different class, and should be compared to higher priced cars.
  • 94hawkskin94hawkskin Member Posts: 116
    I would argue that a $30,000 Camry or Accord is in the same class as a $24,000 Sonata. Which speaks very highly for the Sonata. I can't speak for the Fusion since I never test drove one. I do feel that the Camry and Accord is better, but not that much better to offset the price difference.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    How are you doing math?

    The price of the Fusion was $25,650 and the Camry was $30,840. Thats a $5200 price difference, not 7 grand. Get a grip and/or learn how to subtract. The Fusion lacks a lot of features at that price as well, including Bluetooth, Stability Control, Navigation, SmartKey, rear seat vents, rear window sunshade, 440 Watt JBL, etc...

    ~alpha
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
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    At some time soon the top management is going to want a return from the product managers on all the investments made in putting the Sonata solidly in the US market.

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    I don't think the low prices are temporary. I believe Hyundai intends to make their living at prices $4-5K below Accord and Camry. Their new plant in Alabama has world-class automation and efficiency, and a lean workforce to make the low prices possible. The facility probably has tax concessions from the city and state to keep costs down as well.

    Hyundai would have been dumb to try and compete on equal terms with such great cars in such a crowded field.

    Money,,, the great equalizer!
  • ctsangctsang Member Posts: 237
    why do you think Hyundai can built a car cheaper than Toyota?
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    I already told you. :)
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Hyundai will always undercut its competitors – offering value while not sacrificing quality; and giving consumers more for their money. This is not a short-term plan, by the way.

    It is true the Sonata has its price range increased somewhat compared to the outgoing model, but you are getting a car that is so much better. On the other hand, the Camry is also priced higher (V6 trims, to be specific) vs. its outgoing model, and the same as well, an improvement over the outgoing model. In the end, I am sorry to tell you but your theory will continue to be one, until Hyundai makes an announcement that would significantly up the price on the Sonata (to Camry level)...but I don't see that happening anytime soon...sorry
  • mconsbruckmconsbruck Member Posts: 2
    You are seriously joking right? Do you honestly feel the Camry XLE V-6 could compete against the likes of Audi, BMW, VW and Acura? They would blow the doors off the Toyota. Toyotas are designed, engineered and built to be reliable no frills transportation. That is great for some, for for others we want good driving dynamics, style and a car that can take a curvy road at high velocity, and beg for more. The Camry is not that car. The new Fusion runs circles (driving dynamics wise) around the Camry and I would never, ever compare it to the entry-lux vehicles already named.
    The Camry might compete with the ES 350, but that is because it is the same car. I have never once seen the ES350 compared to an A6, 5 series BMW, or any other performance cars. It simply cannot compete.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    I dont think that they are dumping them, but they aren't fighting very hard to keep the $15000 buyer for a Camry. Let Hyundai service that buyer.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    It's harsh but it's the way managers look at business.

    No one wants to be considered 3rd rate, especially if the product is good and competitive. At some point someone at Hyundai will put his foot down and say 'Let's get a return on our investment'.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Did you read the review?

    The V6 was quicker than the 3-series which is what I put in my post. I also said that while the Camry might finish last it was competitive.

    Driving? You might want to take an SE V6 out and push it -if allowed. The big problem as noted in the review is that the VSC will kick in very early and take some of the 'slip-sliding' enjoyment away.

    The Fusion at present is 3rd rate with an underpowered V6, questionable crash test results and a lack of upscale features. The Sonata puts the Fusion in 4th.

    Where this top-of-the-line Camry fits is just as you said.. it's a Lexus ES350... at a discount. It does compare to the entry-lux versions I mentioned.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Who is considering Hyundai "3rd rate"? I haven't heard that opinion voiced within the auto industry for some time, not with the outstanding products that are coming out of that company on a regular basis. Do you think the Sonata taking third place to a couple of $30k sedans makes Hyundai "3rd rate"?

    In the meantime, Hyundai is grabbing a lot of buyers. Who do you think they are most likely to turn to when it's time to buy that next vehicle? Not Toyota or Honda. Hyundai is not just grabbing sales now, but for the future.
  • choe13choe13 Member Posts: 348
    The transmission is confused? yet on the other comparison and stand alone, these guys state how smooth the transmission is. The editors are confused in my opinion sometimes.

    This car came up short modeling the camcord? When this car is obliously modeled mostly on audi a6 and lexus 330? I mean where do these guys get their info, or do they scheme it up like what i think. Hyundai even stated they stripped apart the audi a6 and lexus 330 , why would you want to relate to camcord when u can use those cars as a ideal car to make instead?

    YEsterday i test drove the 07 camry, since my friend is an assistant manager at a toyota here. And this car hasn't improved much at all from last years car , driving dynamics wise(SE version is really not sporty at all). The interior is nicer, though the plastic feels cheap and doesn't feel buttoned down, the styling looks alot better in pictures than in person too. Will it sell? of course, is it worth it? maybe if it was 3 k less. Camry basically has reliability and with that good resale but thats all this car has .

    Personally where the camry has only evolved(it still uses struts, just barely good size discs for brakes, i mean just that ridiculous) where the sonata has revolved the way mid size cars should be made(multi link set up, bigger brakes, generous everything). Its styling is gorgeous(fusion is better?) , and everything else is above exceptional. Hyundai definitely hit a home run in regards to building a mid size car to the priorities consumer would like in a mid size car, no less, but just pure efficiency when u put in the price.
  • bjbird2bjbird2 Member Posts: 647
    I recently read that the majority of Toyota sales are to people over 50, and they are desperate to appeal to younger buyers. They fear they will be the Buick of this generation. Even their "youth brand', the Scion, is a big seller to retirees down in Florida, the polar opposite demographic than they are trying to appeal to.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    3rd rate doesnt mean the vehicle is bad. I said several times that it was very well built and good. It's just lacking in this comparo which is the top of the line trim in several features that move the Camry and likely the Accord significantly above it.

    The price issue is definitely there but what this Gen6 has done is put more cost pressure on Hyundai, Ford and Honda soon. Now to just reach the Camry's level the others have to add more features, a more powerful engine in Ford's, case and keep the refinement and durability.... then make a hybrid version with all of that.

    Another parallel? In the 80's the Reagen Admin broke the back of the competition ( USSR ) by outspending it on high technology. As the review said the other 3 now are about equal to the Gen5 Camry. The Accord has 18 mo's to leap over this Gen. The Fusion and Sonata are pretty much set for the next 4 years.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    That has been a concern for 10 years and it's well known. The Scion is such a hit it appeals to everyone. The Yaris will also. It's the tC which is driving Scion sales and that definitely is not an 'aging-boomer' vehicle... it's way too low to get into.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Do you know how easy it will be for Hyundai to match the Camry? They already have the 263 hp V6 waiting. They already have a superior suspension in other countries, waiting to bring here. They already offer the bells and whistles like nav systems, just need to get them over here. And for those who want a $30k "family car", they have the loaded Azera at that price point.

    If you think the Sonata is set for the next four years, you have a big surprise coming. They have already moved up the changes for 2007 to next month. They will have a mid-gen refresh that could be a full restyle, if they think it is needed (that is what the last Sonata mid-gen refresh was). Toyota does not stand pat, nor will Hyundai and other competitors. If you think the other companies will look at the new Camry and say, "Oh, woe unto us! We are doomed!!" you are in for another surprise.
  • ctalkctalk Member Posts: 646
    ...and when the 2008 Honda Accord comes out, it will once again be the benchmark for all! :shades: :P
  • w9cww9cw Member Posts: 888
    I spent over 6 months carefully looking, and driving, the Accord, Camry, Sonata, and others. I was not only looking for the best value, but one which exhibited excellent fit and finish. Luckily, the dealers here are all located quite close in proximity, thus a person can easily compare A-B-C, etc. within a very short time frame.

    There's no doubt the Accord and Camry are fine cars (I've owned them before), as are the Civic and Corolla, all with a well-earned and established reputation. But, in the end, I bought a Hyundai. And, after several months of ownership, I'm happy I did.

    The way this car feels, and is put together, I don't have any concerns for the long-term. Hyundai may just have made me a convert!
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    I wouldnt doubt that. The two leapfrog each other regularly.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    This may very well be so. The Sonata is a very good vehicle, behind the CamCords now ( new Altima to be seen first ). But I go back to my Reagan metaphor. On the high end it will require the addition, I will believe you that it's imminent, of several features which are not inexpensive.

    I go back to my original point that this is good for the US buyers at present but how long will Hyundai continue to add and improve and gain nothing monetarily from it. It's just not the way business is done. Especially when they see Toyota and Honda reaping $4000-8000 additional on every vehicle while still outselling the Sonata by 2/1 or more.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    BUT, because these people here on Edmunds picked a car $7,000 or 30.4% MORE EXPENSIVE THAN FUSION as first place just goes to show that this was not a comparison test, this was a joke. They would have picked the toyota regardless, even if it had 3 wheels.

    I, and Edmunds, disagree. The Camry actually placed last very recently when testing the outgoing model. The Hyundai won.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    How do you know they couldn't add 263 hp, the trick suspension, nav, XM, etc. and still be thousands under the Camry? They have $6000 to play with on the new Camry, over $5000 on the current (old) Accord. They don't have to be $6000 under the comparably-equipped Camry to sell. $2-3k should be more than enough.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    You DO realize that Accord EXv6s dont go for sticker, right? Just wanted to make sure. I'm not trying to get into this particular debate (I dont have the time tonight) but I'm not sure which numbers you are using. Figure $25,000 for an EXV6 and $27,000 for the same with NAVI. I dont know TMV on a Sonata LX, which is why I come so humbly to this question.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Yes, just as I'm sure you know that Sonatas don't go for sticker either(e.g. LXes below $18k with all rebates). I was using list prices to keep things simple, but we know it is more complex than that. It was noted earlier that the real difference right now between the new Camry (as tested by Edmunds) and a Sonata LX is more like $9-10k.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    I didn't say that the additons would total up to the full $6000 difference just that it will make the updated version even more expensive. It may end up say $3000 less than the equivalent CamCord. $27K range vs $30K range.

    This then is a whole 'nother situation. Despite it's improving rep, are buyers going to laydown $27K for a top of the line Hyundai vs $30K for a similar CamCord. At $15K the Hyundai is a good value over a $21K CamCord, and the risk is relatively small. At $27K with all kinds of new gadgetry and sophisticated features that's quite a lot more risk to ask of a buyer on product just emerging from a bad rap. In 5-10 years very possibly.

    One point not mentioned in the whole comparo by Edmunds or any of the posters here.... In total we are talking about 17 total vehicle sales in the entire US ( OK that's an exageration ). But these top-of-the-line models are a very small part of the whole picture.
  • 94hawkskin94hawkskin Member Posts: 116
    The TMV for a 2006 LX is 21,108, but that is without the $1,000 Finance rebate. WIth that rebate, which everybody does and then refinances, an LX is 20,108 and you could even knock off another $1K if you are a current Hyundai owner with their owner loyalty rebate. That would bring the price to an absurd $19,108.

    That is about $5K cheaper than an Accord and probably at least $7K cheaper than a Camry. That is why the SOnata is such a great value. It is really close in performance and quality for thousands cheaper. I'm not saying anything bad about an Accord or Camry, but you can't ignore the unbelievable deal you can get on a Sonata.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    This is true. I like the fact that (i like giving numeric values to help illustrate) with Hyundai, you get 95% of the car, at 80% of the price!
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    At $27K with all kinds of new gadgetry and sophisticated features that's quite a lot more risk to ask of a buyer on product just emerging from a bad rap. In 5-10 years very possibly.

    Sometimes I don't know if you are serious or not. "New gagetry"? Hyundai has been offering factory nav systems on even their compact cars in other countries for years. The trick suspension on the Sonata has been available since the fall of 2004. XM is hardly "new". Funny how it's "new gagetry" on a Hyundai, but all tried-and-true stuff on the all-new Camry.

    You may have noticed in the Azera discussion that there are quite a few buyers willing to plunk down $28-30k for a Hyundai, with its "bad rap" and all, and all its "new gagetry", right now--without much in the way of rebates and discounts.

    I don't see Hyundai recalling 1 million of its cars for transmission problems like Honda did with its Accords and its "new gaget" tranny a few years ago. Where is the risk, which you as a Toyota salesperson would like to make us believe is there?
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    Hyundai has to sell their cars for a lot less than CamCords because otherwise they'd sit on the lots a long time! Its called the reputation discount and Hyundai will have to offer it for a few more years til their haunting past ... has passed.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    As I think you know there is also a Hyundai store in our group, doing very well, although we cannot cross sell the products since they are 20 mi away. The commentary from the GM there, a past Mgr here, is that vehicles are very good but actually getting fanny's in them is the big struggle. This was before the Azera arrived and before the new Camry arrived.

    It's good that the two stores are not close to each other.

    Is there a risk in a $27K Hyundai? Maybe not based on current experiences, but does the public perceive a risk? I'd say definitely in the near term. The Azera may overcome some of these reservations.
  • kwonc71kwonc71 Member Posts: 245
    Even though Azera's actual selling price of Top Limited is well below ($26,000 on Ebay) the Camry price on the comparo. I would like to see Hyundai make real sporty Sonata for another $2,000. If they can drop Azera's 3.8L engine above, and apply suspension of Tiburon below, will be a good match for Camry. If hyundai can add that for $2,000 more, it will still below Camry's price by $6,000-$7,000. Add Nav for another $1,500 will be under by $5,000 so. I wish they do. Even though too much price gap made comparo not fair, Sonata ran to 60mph 2nd place, stopped at 1st place, I still don't want to see my Sonata at 3rd place overall.
  • suzannaflsuzannafl Member Posts: 84
    I don't know if I really want to know but,
    any idea what the changes are?

    S
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
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    Where is the risk, which you as a Toyota salesperson would like to make us believe is there?

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    Time is also past for the 06 Sonata to lose the "new model" rap. The car debuted nearly a year ago, and has been rock solid ever since. There were only a few niggling problems reported, and most are already taken care of on the assembly line.
  • jimmy81jimmy81 Member Posts: 170
    Did they take care of the slide off driver's seat yet?
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Not announced yet. But knowing the 2007s are coming soon should help you with negotiations with your Hyundai dealer on the 2006s.
This discussion has been closed.