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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    I'm not sure the Hyundai warranty or the fact that ESC is standard will do that by itself. But that plus a savings of $4-5000 might.

    It sure sent me to the dealer at warp speed. I didn't know my old Mazda would still go that fast. :P
  • 03accordman03accordman Member Posts: 671
    "Ok, remember the logics.
    Just don't tell me something I can't believe."

    You can believe what you want; that won't dictate what others say or post here. If you find it hard to believe that there are people who do get EPA mileage, that's fine.

    Also, please look up the word logic in the dictionary before you use it.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I bet that MPG drops if engine runs to charge battery.

    Mileage would drop if the engine ran more. I would be inclined to think they test hybrids with full battery power, but that is just an educated guess. Ask over at the Hybrid boards, I bet more people will know about that than this particular area. Happy Motoring :)
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Thanks for the defense; those who own Accords know it is true.

    kwonc71 said: "Ok, remember the logics.
    Just don't tell me something I can't believe."

    kwon, don't knock Accords until you try them. If you don't believe us (which you obviously don't and likely never will), that's fine, but the "logics" are actually on our side here, so I wouldn't be pushing that logistical argument.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    That's it... $29500 with the options listed. The only one missing as I stated was the Navi.

    Essentially one vehicle has some benefits and the other has other benefits as joe97 noted and they are very equivalent.

    $2500 differential is it.

    Why Avalon and Camry XLE?

    You missed my post on the price levels and trims back a week or so ago. You will understand if you look back.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    In the HSD system the SOC is never lower than 30% nor rarely higher than 90%. It's kept in a very narrow range so it never deteriorates. Actually the more you drive the higher is the SOC.

    It doesn't matter at all what is the SOC on the battery in regards to the MPG values
  • 94hawkskin94hawkskin Member Posts: 116
    I averaged around 78 mph for an 800 mile trip on I-55 from Hammond, LA to St Louis with very little traffic and I got 31 mpg in my I-4 Sonata.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    That's pretty good considering you were near 80 MPH in a four-speed (or is it a manual?).

    On a related note, can anyone tell me the RPM of the Sonata I-4 4-speed Auto at 60 MPH? I'm curious for comparison purposes.
  • 94hawkskin94hawkskin Member Posts: 116
    My car is an automatic four speed. I set my cruise at around 79 and wouldn't stop until I needed gas, which is why I goy the average speed of 78. I think my RPM's at 60 is around 2500, but I'm not exactly sure. I'm sure the Accord or Camry will do a little better with the five speed.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Thanks, the reason I was curious is because I think the higher top gear makes a BIG difference in my economy vs the old 4-speed Accords. I bet the Sonata would match the Accord's I-4 EPA HWY economy with no problem if it had the 5-speed. Is it coming soon?

    My 2006 5-speed Auto Accord runs 500RPM/15 MPH in fifth gear:

    45MPH...1,500 RPM
    60MPH...2,000 RPM
    75MPH...2,500 RPM
    90MPH...3,000 RPM
  • ykolettisykolettis Member Posts: 9
    looking at a new lease (36 month) and have narrowed it down to two cars (after looking at most of cars in this class):

    Accord EX-V6 (no NAV) and Passat 3.6 (no NAV / no 4-motion)

    Currently have two Hondas (04 Pilot = wife/family hauler, 04 S2000 = weekend/summer runabout)

    Looking to add a functional, yet somewhat luxurious sedan in the 25-35K range.

    (+/-) for VW (some objective, some opinions)
    -- higher luxury point (been called a poor man's Phaeton)
    -- roomier (cabin/cargo)
    -- more stylish sheetmetal
    -- 280 HP
    -- optional Dynaudio premium sound system

    -- getting to the upper limit of what i want to spend
    -- questionable reliability and residual


    (+/-) for Honda
    -- obviously, i know the dealer and will get a great deal
    -- better value/economical
    -- extremely functional
    -- great reliability and residual
    -- very comfortable (not as luxurious as Passat,IMO)

    -- already have two Hondas
    -- no Premium sound option with auto tranny
    -- a bit boring to me

    Any thoughts?

    Does anyone have any direct or indirect experiences (good or bad) with the new Passats?
  • hansiennahansienna Member Posts: 2,312
    You forgot the most important item:
    The Camry is a Toyota while the Azera is not. ;)
  • hansiennahansienna Member Posts: 2,312
    After owning 2 Volkswagens but no Hondas, I would definitely buy the Accord EX-V6 over the Passat 3.6. ;) :shades:
    The Passat may have Volkswagen Fahrvegnugen but the Accord has Honda reliability. They are on opposite ends of the reliability spectrum. I would take reliability instead of "Driver's Wanted" every time.
  • mattgg1mattgg1 Member Posts: 191
    Graduate -

    I don't necessarily agree with the idea that higher RPM = lower fuel economy. The lack of an extra gear isn't always a bad thing.

    As I've mentioned before, I get 34-35 MPG with a 4-speed automatic. That is driving at 70MPH, at about 3100 RPM! Which is equivalent to you driving 90MPH in your Accord.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    4, 5, or even 6 speeds makes no difference in highway fuel economy. What matters is, what is the final gear ratio of the top gear? A 4-speed with a tall 4th could actually return better highway fuel economy than a tranny with more gears but a shorter top gear.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    You forgot the most important item:
    The Camry is a Toyota while the Azera is not.
    - - -- - - - - - -- -

    Hmmmm... My name is Diamond. I weigh 200 pounds. At $1000 per carat, that makes me worth just about $450 million bucks. That's about the same price per pound as the little Toyota symbol stuck on the Camry's grill. What a coincidence! ;)
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Other things being equal though, that 4 speed with tall/economy gearing would likely be noticeably slower than the same vehicle with a 6 speed auto but the same final drive. Not sure if thats a good trade-off...

    ~alpha
  • ykolettisykolettis Member Posts: 9
    i follow... was hoping that new generation Passat would resolve some of the engineering issues VW has had of late... with a bumper to bumper warranty (4 years) and a dealer nearby it would make any problems more tolerable (but is the tradeoff worth the cost?!?)

    i owned a 93 VW Corrado for eight years and had no problems, so my last personal experience with VW was a positive one...

    i appreciate the feedback
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Maybe, but we were talking about fuel economy, not acceleration. Take 30+ horses off the Camry V6 and see how it does vs. the Sonata, which has one less gear.
  • 03accordman03accordman Member Posts: 671
    I tend to agree with you. The reason (IMO) more and more companies are putting 5 and 6 speeds in their automatics is probably to improve driveability. However, OTOH, I test drove a 325 with the 6 speed auto; it definitely felt like it was hunting. Then I put it in Sport more (just shifts 4 gears) and the resposne was much better.

    I guess it would be helpful if someone could post why exactly companies are going for more and more speeds in automatics.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    How 'bout CVTs? Nissan seems to be gambling on those big-time. That's like have a nearly infinite amount of gears.

    -juice
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    The GS300, which has a smaller, less powerful 3.0L version of the GR V6 than the Camry, actually gets slightly worse mpg.

    Moreover, the GS300 has the "fuel-saving" direct injection.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I think it is driveability (more chance of having the engine in just the right rev range) plus higher overall fuel economy. But we were talking about highway fuel economy, and that was the focus of my post about the number of gears not being a factor for highway fuel economy.

    I have read reviews that support your experience with the 325, e.g. on the Sienna (5 speeds, more power) vs. Grand Caravan (4 speeds, more torque), the old Caravan did much less hunting.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Mazda's less powerful 3.0L V6 also gets worse fuel economy than the Camry. It's not just about size and power.
  • hansiennahansienna Member Posts: 2,312
    IF you had a 93 VW Corrado for eight years with no problems, you would probably prefer the Volkswagen Passat 3.6 over the Accord EX-V6. I have many friends who have loved their Volkswagens. One friend has a diesel Jetta for himself and another diesel Jetta for his wife although he could afford to drive much more expensive vehicles. ;)
  • exalteddragon1exalteddragon1 Member Posts: 729
    These are the changes to for the 2007 model year...


    ABS is now standard on all models except base and the new SE.

    • All Models now get the G6 GTP's Hydraulic Power Steering, except base and SE models.

    •GTP models now have a standard 6 speed automatic transmission featuring manual shift mode.

    • New standard GTP engine 3.6L 250 HP, V6, DOHC, VVT.

    •Available heated cloth seats on all models.

    • Radios now OnStar "Turn-By-Turn Navigation Capable".

    • New optional 17" Black Chrome Tech wheels.

    • New exterior colour - Blue-Gold Crystal

    • New - Air Bags: Driver and Passenger, Frontal Dual Stage, Side
    Head Curtain Airbags and Passenger Sensing System standard on all models(except convertible).

    • New wheels:
    17” x 7” 5-Spoke Facia Painted Wheel
    18" x 7” Aluminum Ultra-Bright Wheel

    • Seat side airbags now optional on all models.

    • 2.4L Ecotec standard on base and SE models.
    3.5L V6 standard on GT models.
    3.6L V6 standard on GTP models.
    3.9L available on all GT models with optional 6 speed manual.

    • 3.9L engine changes:
    W/ 4 Speed Auto - 227hp
    W/ 6 Speed manual - 240hp.

    GT PERFORMANCE PACKAGE:
    Includes 3.9L V6 (240HP), 18” Aluminum Painted Wheels, 6-Speed Manual Transmission,Dual Chrome Tip Exhaust, Stabilitrak.

    GT CONVERTIBLE PERFORMANCE PACKAGE:
    Includes 3.9L V6 (227HP), 18” Aluminum Ultrabright Wheels, Dual Chrome Tip Exhaust, 4-Speed Automatic Transmission, Auto HVAC, Leather Front Heated Bucket Seats with 6-Way Power Driver’s Seat with Lumbar.


    250hp 3.6L DOHC VVT w/6 Speed Auto
    Does this rank up the G6 for these comparisons? The car also comes in more flavors (coupe/sedan/HARDTOP conv) than most offerings in the segment.

    Just wanted to know what you all thought...
  • mariner7mariner7 Member Posts: 509
    Top 10 US fleet cars, October 2005 - January 2006:
    1 - Impala
    2 - Malibu
    3 - Taurus
    4 - Sonata
    5 - Grand Prix
    6 - Stratus
    7 - G6
    8 - Caravan
    9 - Cobalt
    10 -PT Cruiser

    The one foreign entry is Sonata. So all the talk about Hyundai surpassing Nissan and Sonata challenging the Japanese entries is just talk. Sonata is a good car, but it's just like a Camcorder one or two gens ago.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Well, for comparison here is what the 2007 G6 is still lacking compared to the lowest trim Sonata (which may have changes for 2007). Sonata has:

    * ABS standard
    * ESC standard
    * Side airbags standard
    * Manual shift mode standard on automatics

    Still a-ways to go for the G6...
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    A few quick comments..

    ABS and ALL the airbags are becoming standard on all the other models. Sonata, Camry, Accord, Altima. Not being standard seems questionable for a new redesign.

    DOHC VVT w/6 Spd AT seems competitive at 250 HP. The 3.9L should be retired IMO
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Not sure how you reached the conclusion you did based on this data. Accords weren't in rental fleets even 1-2 generations ago.

    Maybe the rental car companies see the Sonata as being a great value--a roomy, comfortable, powerful, safe, reliable car at a great price--and that is why they have bought so many of them compared to other cars in its class?
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    I'm certain that the high level of Fleet sales is a way for Hyundai to ensure a consistent flow of units through the new plant. It's near impossible for a model to jump from ~100K units to 200K+ units in one year. They had to find a way to make certain that the fixed costs of the plant were covered, ergo agressive rebates and a high volume of fleet sales.

    They still have some work to do in convincing the buying public, despite agressive pricing and very competitive vehicles.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Why do you suppose Toyota sells Camrys to fleets then? They don't have work to do convincing the buying public, do they?
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Most are sold to TRAC stores as an incentive to those stores. It's also a way to generate huge extra profits if your base volume has covered your fixed costs already.

    I'm certain you understand the concept but if 30000 units are sold to TRAC stores and 15000 units are sold to Enterprise and others these additional fleet sales generate huge margins since the other 400,000 units have covered the fixed costs at G'town.

    The problem arises when like GM and Ford your base volume all goes to fleets ( Taurus 100% and Malibu's 50-70% ). This is the what Hyundai has to avoid with the Sonata.
  • choe13choe13 Member Posts: 348
    You forgot the most important item:
    "The Camry is a Toyota while the Azera is not. "

    talk about automotive racism if such a thing existed.

    I won't go too far like that, but the real truth as to why toyota cars are reliable and have the rep is that they don't make cars allowing consumers to push them. The corolla if pushed too hard starts to shake, the brakes are sub par so that means not to drive it too fast, meaning parts get less stress which should amount to better car life

    The camry of 2007 is a fine expample of this theory, where they got this esc intruding too early so that it will save the life of their suspension system. In my opinion toyota does not have enough faith on their cars ability to play, maybe the truth is that because it really can't. Thus i rather never buy a toyota(engine is not the only thing in a car), maybe in the future if they change though thats a different story.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    The corolla if pushed too hard starts to shake, the brakes are sub par so that means not to drive it too fast, meaning parts get less stress which should amount to better car life

    This is false. There is nothing anywhere that supports your false impression except your own hatred. Please don't make things up.

    The camry of 2007 is a fine expample of this theory, where they got this esc intruding too early so that it will save the life of their suspension system

    This is false and actually you have no idea about what you are writing. You don't even understand the concept of VSC vs Trac yet you write the sentence above.

    It doesn't allow for good discussions when you make up false statements, it also makes you seem smaller for stating it. Try to be more like backy who is less emotional and very well respected here with good questions and facts.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,601
    Sonata retail sales:
    Jan- March 2005 = 28,141
    Jan- March 2006 = 42,871

    So, if 30% of current sales are to fleets, then 30,010 were sales to individuals.

    Sales to individuals exceeds total sales, including fleet sales (what ever % they were) from a year earlier.
  • choe13choe13 Member Posts: 348
    Have you drive the 1999 corolla? i owned one

    have you drive the 2003 corolla? i have driven in one, and it shakes my friend if u push it too hard on the highway

    There is no emotions involved into my writings, it is out of logic.

    "This is false and actually you have no idea about what you are writing. You don't even understand the concept of VSC vs Trac yet you write the sentence above."

    The point is that if its not the camry or is250 etc they have the esc and traction to come in when you want to slightly push its limits. Whats the point of buying the is250 if its suppose to be a performance car then? make sense?

    You never seem to back up your points or talk about the points directly i'am talking about, and go off to another avenue with your answers. What does not having vsc vs trac have anything to do with the point i was trying to make?
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    I drive Corollas several hundred times a year. Your friend might have trashed his 2003 so it doesn't work well. There is no proof of any sort anywhere except your personal statement that the Corolla reacts like you say it does. However it remains the top compact car in the market. The public speaks. This is pure logic. Your one or two personal opinions are out-weighed by 300,000 others annually.

    If your arguments against Toyota are only negative then you have no hope. Negative viewpoints never succeed.

    The point is that if its not the camry or is250 etc they have the esc and traction to come in when you want to slightly push its limits but it doesn;t allow you to

    Again this is false ( the highlighted words ). It intrudes when a professional driver agressively attempts to exceed it's limits. There is nothing anywhere stating otherwise. Please do not make up false statements.

    I never said anything about not having VSC or Trac .. what I said is that you don't understand how they work nor what purpose they serve.
  • faldocfaldoc Member Posts: 84
    I considered the Azera, and Sonata for that matter before getting the Camry. Despite improvements in QC recently Hyundai is still not an established brand, while Toyota is, and consistency is only developed over time. I applaud Hyundai for doing better.

    Ultimately I felt more comfortable buying Toyota, having had Lexus previously, and experience at a Toyota dealership for service. The Azera was on my short list, but would have been more expensive than the Camry XLE I ended up with since they are selling for about $1000 more than the Camry I bought. I have no Hyundai dealer in town. Also I like the look of the Camry better than Azera (purely subjective). The Azera looks a lot like a Buick to me.

    As to fuel economy, my Camry V6 is getting 31.3 mpg, 95% highway. I can't complain.
  • kwonc71kwonc71 Member Posts: 245
    I had 1993 & 1994 Accord LX for years.
    Here are cars list I had between me and my wife:
    1.Dodge Dynasty as my first car-used
    2.Subaru Legacy-used
    3.1993 Honda Accord LX 2Dr coupe-used
    4.1994 Honda Accord LX 4Dr sedan-new
    5.Chrysler Caravan-new
    6.Kia Sephia-new
    7.Kia Sedona-new
    8.Acura MDX-used
    9.2000 Hyundai Sonata-new
    10.Now I own Kia 06 Sedona EX-new, 11. 2006 Sonata LX-new, 12. 1988 Acura Integra-got it free from my in-law.

    Actually I have owned 12 cars, not 11

    I have owned 4 Honda cars so far.

    Anything else I can help you with?
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    I'm certain that the high level of Fleet sales is a way for Hyundai to ensure a consistent flow of units through the new plant.

    There was no need to pad sales for the benefit of keeping the plant busy. The plant has been running flat out since the first Sonata's rolled out about a year ago.

    Hyundai's plan is to put butts in the seats. They want to get all the exposure possible, because people that see and drive the car like the car. Many people that rent Sonatas end up owning Sonatas.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    A rental car is abused to the point where it looks and feels twice as old as it is. So a rental that is a year old feels like a car that is 2 to 3 years old. This gives people a bad impression of the car. I just had a rental (06 Chevy Impala) for a week and a half. It only had 15,000 miles on it, but it looked like it had been abused for 5 years and 50,000 miles. That's not how I would want people to get acquainted with my cars, if I'm a car company.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    elroy5: Very right. This is GM's huge problem on it's midsized autos. Unless you can get a nearly new one your impression is 'Used car'.

    Bobad: I wouldnt be surprised if the plant was running flat out but a good part of that is in fleet sales which are like a drug to a manufacturer since it's an easy volume sale but one with little or no margin. It's helping to drive GM to bankruptcy.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Sorry but way too many engine choices, delete a few please...3.9L - but only 227 horsies??

    Need a interior makeover more than anything, in my opinion.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    One of the reasons I bought my first Hyundai in 2000 was due to my experiences with rental cars. I drove a brand-new Focus, only a few hundred miles on it, and there were parts falling off inside and outside. I drove multiple Proteges and after only 10k miles there were squeaks and rattles, and the ride was much harsher than I like. Then I drove a '99 Elantra with 25k miles. Everything was solid and tight, ice-cold A/C (in Dallas, in summer), plenty of pep. So when the new, improved 2001 Elantra debuted I made sure I took a good look at it. I also drove a last-gen Sonata at about this time and thought it was a nice car--but bigger than I needed.

    Driving rental cars also helped me decide I could never own a Corolla (very uncomfortable driving position for me), that the Camry (last gen) was OK but nothing special (I actually longed to get back to my Elantra after driving the Camry), that the Mazda6 was a lot of fun to drive and worth a good look, the Legacy was a nice car but too cramped in the rear for my needs, and the Malibu, Taurus, and G6 are fine cars--for renting and driving them for a couple of days, not to own!
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Yep, you havent driven the current Accord, which is what I was obviously talking about. You made no point here. A lot has happened in 12 years in Accord-land.
  • kwonc71kwonc71 Member Posts: 245
    Law of physics is still same as 12 years ago and now.

    If you believe one of those 40 MPG on Accord story, I don't want to discuss about this anymore.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    If you think a car that runs 3,000 RPM at 70MPH and no VTEC will get identical mileage than one that runs 2,300 RPM at 70MPH WITH Vtec, then you don't NEED to be discussing this.
  • kwonc71kwonc71 Member Posts: 245
    My LX Sonata runs right at 2000 RPM @70 MPH, not more than 2100 RPM.
    You should believe my Sonata's 45 MPG story then.
    Is that fair?

    BTW, if MPG is that important, I will get a scooter or take bicycle to work instead.
    Driving 3400+ LB cars with 200+ HP and saving gas is non-sense to me anyway.
  • tallman1tallman1 Member Posts: 1,874
    I honestly can't figure out why someone thinks someone else is lying about gas mileage. I suppose some idiot who wants some attention might want to play games but if a consistent poster here who helps out on other threads and generally seems knowledgeable is getting pretty consistent results, why doubt him?

    I haven't been able to get 40, like thegraduate, but even he said it was very unusual in near-perfect conditions.

    I'll bet I can get better than EPA mileage in a Hyundai too. It isn't like the automaker is putting the number up there. Maybe the gov't is conspiring to make some cars look better than others!!

    kwonc71, I think I remember that you live in Portland... I'm in the Puget Sound area. Next time you're up here, you can see for yourself. And if you make it to Alabama, thegraduate can help you as well :) .
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