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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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Comments

  • newcar31newcar31 Posts: 3,711
    uhh, I know why BMWs are considered benchmarks, my point was that a vehicle doesn't have to be the best at everything to be considered a benchmark.
  • truethattruethat Posts: 123
    Just wondering how you guys compare the two.
    BTW, Thought it was interesting how Hyundai brand beat out Nissan in the new
    Interbrand survey (although it's more of a global perception).
  • 210delray210delray Posts: 4,722
    You know, the Passat? The one that many considered the benchmark?

    Not me of course! I wouldn't have a Volkswagen if you gave it to me.
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Posts: 1,467
    Its getting childish.

    The Accord, Camry, Sonata, Altima, Mazda6, Passat and every other car in this class is good in its own way.

    "Can we all just get along" LOL :P

    and Oh yeah, here's the new 06 Passat pricing...

    Value edition 6 speed manual $22,950
    Value edition 6 speed auto $24,025
    2.0 T manual $23,900
    2.0 T 6 speed auto $24,975
    3.6 auto $29,950
    3.6 4X MOTION $31,900
    destination Charge $ 615
    2.0 T
    Package #1 $ 1,625
    Package # 2 Luxury $ 2,825
    17" Alloy Wheals $ 400
    Dynaudio Sound System $ 1,000
    DVD Satelite Nav $ 1,800
    Rear Side Airbags $ 350
    3.6
    Package # 1 $ 2,750
    Package # 2 Sport $ 3,050
    Package #2 Luxury $ 5.550
    18 " Alloy Wheals $ 800
    etc...
  • ctalkctalk Posts: 646
    The Accord, Camry, Sonata, Altima, Mazda6, Passat and every other car in this class is good in its own way. :P Very true.

    The Passat is really pricey. It compares better to the TL, 3 and G35 IMO.
  • truethattruethat Posts: 123
    Stop the nonsense.
    Now, I need help deciding my new car.
    I want to buy it within a week or so.
    If I pick Sonata, i'll pick LX since it's cheaper and loaded with
    everything i need. (nav. is nice but then I am starting to think
    i don't really need it.) That puts me into the range of Accord
    EX with leather. (Does V6 LX have leather?)
    I'm not crazy about Camry, so skip that.
    I don't think I can wait for the 07 model to be introduced.
    VW looks really good, but i don't think it's in the same
    playground as Sonata or Accord (just seem so detached
    from reality? I hate that metalic thing they are putting below
    the grilles of all their vehicles. I don't know, just not interested).
    I haven't researched Altima. Can anyone help me with this?

    I test-drove Sonata today, the ride was good but the sales guy
    didn't let me drive alone, and the color was not what i wanted
    (i want black but they had only silver and purple). The sales guy
    was a jerk and didn't seem so interested in selling the vehicle
    so I'm going to a different dealer for one more try.

    As far as Accord goes, it's becoming my second choice. I think
    I'm gonna test-drive it tommorrow. It's obviously a good car, but
    I'm just not that attracted to the car (Every other friend of mine
    has a silver Accord and I think I want something different??)

    I am not too picky about my driving experience. Just quite,
    smooth and something that's not gonna give me any headache.
    Good interior (room and design) is more important I think. (Sonata
    didn't really impress me much but wasn't bad either)

    I have been driving handed-down Maxima (old, old), so I guess
    I'd be more used to Nissan cars (I rented an Altima once and it
    basically had all the little things at the same places as the old
    maxima - you know like the buttons for gas release and such),
    but it never crossed my mind that I'd actually want an Altima
    (strange, huh?)

    It looks like Altima 3.5SE has about the same features as
    Sonata LX? Obviously more expensive I guess.

    My list...(So far anyway)
    1. Sonata LX
    2. Accord LX V6 (possibly different trim)
    3. Altima 3.5SE???

    What do you guys think?

    Oh, and this has nothing to do with our discussion, but
    if you guys have nothing else to do, check this out.
    One funky car, huh? My friend from Korea showed it to me.
    Enjoy.
    click here
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,746
    Quiet, smooth, won't give you a headache... sounds like the perfect description of a Camry to me. Bring the No-Doz along.

    If you want something different, how about a Legacy? No one seems to think of that car. Fine vehicle, good discounts available. AWD. Not a lot of them around (compared to Camry, Accord, and Altima anyway).

    So what's with the nonsense pictures? This is a discussion about mid-sized sedans. :P
  • truethattruethat Posts: 123
    You're right... I guess Camry fits my description perfectly... :blush:
    Darn it... Maybe I should wait for the 07 Camry to come out.

    Subaru, huh?
    I guess it's cold enough here. I do see them quite a lot actually.
    I think it's more popular in the Northeast than the West or the South
    (for obvious reasons). Isn't Legacy more popular as a wagon than
    a sedan? I don't think I've actually seen a Legacy sedan on the street.
    Plus, base GT (auto) is over 28 grand MSRP. It doesn't really seem
    like much of a value even if it's AWD.
    (Which brings me back to Sonata, interestingly enough)

    As for the pics, I did say it had nothin' to do with our discussion :blush:
    Just thought it was interesting. That's all.
  • janeencjaneenc Posts: 29
    Stop shopping and buy the Sonata 06 lx. I looked for months before my purchase. I should also add I was once a die hard fan of Toyotas. Not that I don't like them still, but I decided to be open minded and do all of my research on the reviews that are in. Some of them can be found at autoweek.com or automobile.com or even the Accord,Camry,Sonata comparo. I still like the looks and driving experience of many other cars out in the mid-sized market. However, if you want alot of car for a great price with all the added features that don't have to be added like side curtains or esc,the list goes on...go for the 06 lx or even the gls. Every auto maker started out with bad products when they first came out. But with the playing field being so competitive, you have to deliver a great product to have staying power in the game.If you look at what Hyundai has achieved in years past they are not getting out of the game any time soon.So take the plunge, great car, great price, all the bells and whistles and then some. Take into consideration the warranty and whats left to decide? Color? ">
  • anonymouspostsanonymousposts Posts: 4,202
    Most Camrys sold are LE 4 cylinders. Here in Atlanta it is rare to see an LE 4 cylinder with the side curtain package. Maybe that's different in your area.

    My point about the Civic is that normally people are not willing to pay extra for safety features. It's great of Hyundai to make ESC and traction control standard BUT how many people are going to drive agressively enough on a test drive to tell the difference? I've been driving for several years now and have only had a couple of cars with traction control. I can honestly say that it never activated at any time in any of the cars I have driven. Besides, the Accord will be getting ESC in V6 trims starting with the 2006 refresh.

    To answer your third question ... you stated that the minimal price advantage that the Sonata has over the Accord was made more significant because the Sonata has standard traction and ESC. My question to you was if the Sonata doesn't test as well as the Accord what dollar value would you put on the Accord's crash test advantage. I'm not saying that the Accord is better .. I am just curious how much you think good crash test ratings add to the value of a car?
  • anonymouspostsanonymousposts Posts: 4,202
    It appears to me that you are unable to get leather as a factory option in 4 cylinder Sonatas. If this is true this could be a major oversight for Hyundai.
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Posts: 1,467
    I think Hyundai should add an LXI4 model to the lineup.

    With all the stuff of the LXV6 but with the I4 engine.
  • ctalkctalk Posts: 646
    Earlier you posted "consumers will realize sooner or later that the Sonata is better"

    That may apply to certain consumers, but the Accord and Camry are still going to sell better. Toyota and Honda have been rulers of the mid-size segment for many years and have earned the trust of many customers. The Sonata is relatively new to this segment, and still needs to time establish itself as a classleader. A lot of people look past the price of the Accord and Camry because they want to buy quality car. Honda and Toyota have been making quality cars for years, and its paying off (in sales and repeated buyers)

    I'm not saying Hyundai doesn't make quality cars, they do but it might take a while before they are up where Honda and Toyota are.
  • pwimseypwimsey Posts: 16
    I'm not saying Hyundai doesn't make quality cars, they do but it might take a while before they are up where Honda and Toyota are.

    This is right - Honda and Toyota have been making extremely high quality automobiles for 30 years. I understand that Hyundai has made great strides in quality, and their excellent warranty is a good way of demonstrating their confidence in their quality. However, as the former owner of a 1990 Excel, it's going to take a long time before I would even consider buying another Hyundai. I at least need to see whether the 2006 Sonata is as reliable as a Honda, Toyota, Mazda, or other reliable brand after 10 years.
  • choe13choe13 Posts: 348
    if we disect a car , is the engine prob one of the most important part of the car?( since most other areas are mechanic fixable?) as time permits a car to live

    Hyundai i think understands that your excel and other ponys and most other hyundai cars were crappy. So now they have instilled a 10 year power warranty which is pretty reassuring.

    I will buy mine after my current car lease is up and hopefully the ASC suspension option will come to play. Navigation i could care less since i'm amazing with directions and locations.

    07 camry does not appeal to me, and a brand new accord and mazda 6 will not be made until late 2008/2009.

    I encourage everyone before making attacks on this quality car to test drive it, because if you know cars, you can tell a car is made with good quality and has good reasons to withstand quality issues
  • tenpin288tenpin288 Posts: 804
    Honda and Toyota have been making extremely high quality automobiles for 30 years

    30 years is stretching it a little. 30 years ago, Honda and Toyota were no where near the quality vehicles that they are now. I worked in the auto parts and repair business in the late 70s and early 80s and I can tell you that their vehicles were not "high" quality (neither were the US makes for that matter). They were both prone to body rust and Toyota was very derivative in body styling (for example, the Celica was called the Japanese Mustang). Honda may have been innovative engineering wise (the cvcc engine comes to mind), but in terms of body integrity and reliability, no where near where they are now. They didn't really begin their climb up the high quality ladder until the mid to late 80s. Until the mid 80s or so, most Toyota and Honda dealerships were the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th or lower make on multi-make dealerships, unlike now where most of them are the anchor make on the lot. If Hyundai continues to make the strides they have been making the last few years, in less than the 10 years you mention, they will have the same type of quality reputation that Honda and Toyota enjoy.;)
  • ctalkctalk Posts: 646
    People lost their trust in american cars when they continued making bad cars while Toyota and Honda continued to make better and better cars (in the 80's-90's) It will take a while before American car companies re-gain the trust of consumers. Honda and Toyota are at the top because of their hard work in the past (and are still improving). Some people may think Accord and Camry buyers are biased but some of them just want to stick to cars that are proven to be dependable (and has a strong reputation), i see nothing wrong with that.

    Hyundai is still a developing company. If it wants to be up where Toyota and Honda they can't miss a beat (especially with the 06 Sonata) Hyundai especially has to prove the former owners of the Excel (like pwimsey) that they are equal to Honda and Toyota in quality and reliability.
  • choe13choe13 Posts: 348
    how about jd power 2 years for mid size, does that mean nothing in your books?

    I think hyundai has reached pinnacle point of quality and its just for them to sustain them. Its like they say hard to make the 1st million but after its a piece of cake

    If you ever see the ads of hyunday, it was some crazy 365 days 24/7 working hard for our customers. and i don't think they are joking too
  • truethattruethat Posts: 123
    Toyota
    Year-to-date
    Car: 634,611 vs. 531,593, up 20 percent
    Truck: 479,459 vs. 473,044, up 2 percent
    Vehicle: 1,114,070 vs. 1,004,637, up 12 percent

    Honda
    Year-to-date
    Car: 397,026 vs. 427,692, down 7 percent
    Truck: 295,338 vs. 258,332, up 15 percent
    Vehicle: 692,364 vs. 686,024, up 2 percent

    Nissan
    Year-to-date
    Car: 290,745 vs. 270,066, up 8 percent
    Truck: 251,976 vs. 202,719, up 25 percent
    Vehicle: 542,721 vs. 472,785, up 16 percent

    Hyundai
    Year-to-date
    Car: 156,391 vs. 150,552, up 5 percent
    Truck: 68,046 vs. 54,459, up 26 percent
    Vehicle: 224,437 vs. 205,011, up 10 percent

    Here are the top 4 Import carmakers in the US. and their sales figures
    as of June this year. I highlighted the car sales because truck numbers is
    a little complicated because it includes the SUVs and minivans (Honda just
    got started with its pick-up line and Hyundai doesn't have either pick-up or
    minivan line yet). I think car sales is the best representation of where things
    are right now, from the given figures anyway. I don't have separate SUV
    figures.

    My question is, when (if ever) do you think Hyundai will surpass the
    Japanese in terms of TOTAL sales?
    I think it's very possible for Hyundai to take over Nissan in 5-10 years.
    Am I dreaming?

    Well, I have a few interesting points, though.
    1. Hyundai will start selling Entourage minivan next year and may move
    into pickup segment sooner than later (I keep reading dealers pressing
    hard for it).
    2. Azera surely will do better than the ignorable XG350 numbers and if
    it is successful enough, Hyundai will surely push more upscale vehicles
    like RWD sports sedans or whatnot.
    3. Hyundai's numbers has more than quadrupled its sales figures from
    1998 (around 90,000) to 2004 (more than 410,000). Who's to say this
    trend will continue over the rest of this decade? Maybe not quadrupling
    but doubling doesn't sound so impossible.

    What do you guys think?
  • ctalkctalk Posts: 646
    Yes that does mean something to me but the majority of consumers will care more about long-term quality (I'm not saying IQS isn't important, it is). What Initial Quality shows is how the car can hold after 90 days of ownership. People have more interest in Vehicle Dependability Study because it shows how the car holds up after 3 years of ownership (how your vehicle holds up in 3 years can also have a significant impact on a vehicle’s retained value *and number of sales) Hyundai is slowly translating its short-term Quality into long term Quality.

    Hyundai's not going to be up with Honda and Toyota over night. It needs to build its reputation and consumers trust like what Honda and Toyota did (it may take 10 years or less/more).

    "If you ever see the ads of hyunday, it was some crazy 365 days 24/7 working hard for our customers. and i don't think they are joking too"
    Hyundai is working very hard, it wont be where it is today without hard work. Same goes with Honda and Toyota.

    Note: The Chevrolet Malibu is both Highest ranked in VDS and IQS, yet the Camry and Accord are considered more reliable. If JD power is important in everyones books, there would be more Malibu's on the road.
  • stickguystickguy Posts: 14,915
    No Toyota to be found, in the discussion or that magazine comparo, and no one even notices!

    At least there is a new Camry coming. That should be an interesting test in a few months.

    GUess there will be a new Accord for '08?

    2013 Acura RDX (wife's) and 2007 Volvo S40 (mine)

  • choe13choe13 Posts: 348
    talking about first 90 day ownership quality study, does that mean that for camry and accord the initial quality wasn't as good? i mean if in the beginning things are shaky, how can that be reassuring for the long term?? I don't believe the honda or toyota emblem reassures that

    I know Malibu also got ranked high and if you haven't noticed tehre are quite a large breed of malibu compared to ever from chev.

    Also though unlike the 06 sonata how good as in adding style, being quiet nvb, other equipment features, and the answer is it doesn't have any those features, thats why you don't see them as much compared to the accord, camry, and won't either compared to the sonata
  • spinzerospinzero Posts: 91
    Just because a car did not get the very first place on IQS does not mean that the car is "shaky." Camcords fair decent enough on IQS. In my opinion, IQS and VDS measure quite different things.

    What IQS measures is really the quality control at the factory. As long as a car is well put together at the final assembly stage, it probably won't break for 90 days. This is why even Jaguars get decent ratings on IQS.

    But it does not measure the degree at which the manufacturer engineers its cars towards long term reliability. Usually things that start breaking after many years do so not because someone at the factory messed it up 7 years ago, but because the parts were poorly designed cheapos. In other words, it's more of an engineering problem than a QC problem.

    I'm not saying that current Hyundais will not last. In fact, judging by the way the current CEO runs business, (and having some understanding as to how a Korean organization reacts to such a strong, micro-managing, and inspiring leadership) it is my "belief" that they are not just cheating on IQS, but in fact making cars that are reliable in the long run. But to convince the general public, it will take many years of such effort. It is only fair as this is the consequence of running a shaky business in the past.

    Having that said, I think it takes a "belief" to get ahead in the market. Once everyone and their mom figures out that Hyundais are as reliable as the Japanese rivals, you won't be able to get them for thousands less than the competitors any more. :P
  • choe13choe13 Posts: 348
    "What IQS measures is really the quality control at the factory. As long as a car is well put together at the final assembly stage, it probably won't break for 90 days. This is why even Jaguars get decent ratings on IQS."

    First of all Jaguars are fine cars. So i'm not sure why you would make them sound like a cheap car company. They have a high reputation for craftsmanship

    i'll tell you however both camry's and accord's had a quite a few callbacks(like 2 each) to stress some owners. Do i still think overall the car will last? the track records say yes they do.

    As for Hyundai their 00-05 sonata has been around roughly for 5 years, and in that time has won jd power initial for 2 years, and top 7 i believe the rest, which is impressive in 5 years time. So if the old hyundai 00-05 can sustain about 2 more years of durability, then i think its safe to assume that hyundai meets initial and long term quality compared to even the likes of the camcords
  • blaneblane Posts: 2,017
    There has been a lot of discussion here about the J.D. Powers initial (i.e. first 90 days) quality survey results. I believe that long term reliability is a much more valuable measure of where I should place my automobile buying money.

    I believe that there is no question that a survey of six-hundred-seventy-five-thousand (675,000) vehicle owners, submitting "serious problem" information about their personal experiences with their own cars, provides a much better indication of what to expect of newer models of such cars. That statistical survey is published annually by Consumers Union. It is unbiased by advertising money and not funded by automobile manufacturers.
  • spinzerospinzero Posts: 91
    First of all Jaguars are fine cars. So i'm not sure why you would make them sound like a cheap car company. They have a high reputation for craftsmanship

    I think you are confusing QUALITY with RELIABILITY. Of course Jaguar is a fine car, with the reputation of high "English handcrafted" quality. It always has. But what brought Jaguar down in the past was their HORRIBLE reliability, which was the first thing Ford set out to fix when they bought Jaguar. So far Ford has done a surprisingly good job IMO, but still most of their cars rank poorly when it comes down to long term reliability.

    This is true for most other European makes. VW is renowned for QUALITY that destroys its Japanese competitors, but the truth is that there is absolutely nothing less reliable in that segment than VW. Same goes for Audi and Merc, they have the highest perceived quality but fight for the rock bottom spot in VDM survey. (well, Audi seems to be getting better actually)

    My point is that Hyundai doing well in IQS is great, but they will have to do better in long term surveys to convince people. I think they will, but we'll still have to see.
  • ctalkctalk Posts: 646
    So if the old hyundai 00-05 can sustain about 2 more years of durability, then i think its safe to assume that hyundai meets initial and long term quality compared to even the likes of the camcords

    Not all consumers will think like you, they are not going to assume Hyundai is equal to Toyota and Honda in Reliability. People who buy Accord and Camry's buy them because of their long standing reputation in Quality and Reliability. People look past the price of the Accord and Camry especially those who are past owners of American cars (low resale value, expensive repair costs)

    Hyundai has improved in IQS but still is far behind Toyota and Honda when it comes to Long term Durability. Even if Hyundai equals Honda and Toyota in Long term Duribility (on JD power) it will still be hard to convince consumers. Hyundai needs to back it up with a long standing reputation of reliability like Honda and Toyota have. I believe Hyundai can do it, but it will take a while.
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    SET is a wholly different Toyota than what the rest of the country sees, and since many in my family purchase Toyotas, I'm glad we arent subject to their vehicle ordering practices, package add-ons, and overall consumer abuse.

    I understand your point about the Civic. However, you need to understand that you're talking about a car that competes in a class where safety isnt a typical high priority for the the buyer. In the family car, class, it becomes much more significant. This is coupled with the fact that chest only side airbags have little effect on side impact safety as a whole. Thus, my conclusion is that you cant really base anything on the take rate of the Civic's side airbag option.

    Did you read the IIHS link that I provided? Traction control and stability control are so incredibly different in application that I dont understand your comparison. However, going along with it, why bother with ABS? How often do you drive aggressively enough to active that system? I consider myself a fairly aggressive driver, and mine activates MAYBE once a month. This does NOT negate the validity of this feature.

    You make a good point re: Sonata crash scores. However, its a big IF. Personally, I feel the Sonata is going to do well in the IIHS testing (frontal and side), but you're right, that remains to be seen. That said, given ESC's ability to substantially (but obviously not totally) mitigate the likelihood of accidents. I think its a huge advantage, and I hope that my next car will have it, if I can afford it.

    FWIW, I think its awesome of Honda to put ESC standard on the V6s, I hope its optional on EX 4s, which I will be considering come February.

    ~alpha
  • oldjoeoldjoe Posts: 132
    Good thoughts, my wife, son and neighbors had Hyundais from years past and they all don't care if Hyuindai were giving their autos away...their previous history has soured many, many people against them. It will take 10-20 years before Hyundai will ever be designated a very reliable car in the same genre as Toyota or Honda autos in the minds of the customers...sales hype non-withstanding. My son used to say he was very disappointed to have purchased the Korean Yugo. It all depends upon your personal experience. Customers vote with their personal experiences and some have a VERY long memory, younger people may well be enamored of Hyundai, but their rep with older people may not be the same. Of course, we all realize that the long warranties and sales super-hype is a necessary marketing tool for an auto brand with such a poor reputation, will the new sales hype help and prove true...only time will tell.

    Don't forget, Nissan also is a very challenging company ( run by Renault)...would anyone ever buy a Renault, not really because of their previous reputation, yet many people will buy a Nissan because of their prior history of good cars...all the way back to the Datsun Z cars. Put a Renault badge on the same cars and sales would plummet. Public perception is a finicky thing...not a result of what sales hype is used. I bought my first Honda this year without seeing any sales hype (nor caring about any), just on reputation alone among previous owners who are friends, aquaintances and neighbors. There is a reason why so many seniors are buying Hondas and Toyotas -- reliability, high resale value and drivability..
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