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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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Comments

  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I think it is the overall Hyundai reputation vs. the Sonata's name recognition that is the issue.

    Now that the Taurus is going bye-bye, Hertz et. al. will need to look elsewhere for their cars. If Ford doesn't want to sell them Fulans, and HonYota doesn't increase their fleet sales, maybe they will turn increasingly to Hyundai. Or maybe Hertz will buy more from GM, but they don't seem to have many GM cars in their fleet.
  • tinatinatinatina Member Posts: 388
    First year glitches are typical. You can go across several boards from the Camry tranny issue (albeit a very minor issue affecting 160 cars), to perhaps the more serious and or common issues with the Avalon (which is going into its 2nd year). Its how the manufacturer responds to these problems and do they treat their customers right? So, I don't think you can conclude that glitches automatically kill sales. It could happen though over a long period of time coupled with neglect of the customer as the car and or its manufacturer develop a poor reputation. In my example, I have had 2 Honda Accords over the last six years. I have had no problems, other than a recall of the 2004's Airbag. Minor issue. The dealership detailed my car and gave me a free oil change (I did not expect this nor demand it). Pretty good service if you ask me.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    It musn't have been a Camry CE my mom was looking at, as there is no such thing as a Magnetic Grey CE. There was a CE on the lot though, which took me by surprise a bit, I thought they were fairly rare. Guess not. There were about 8-10 Camrys that we perused, so sorry for the mix up!

    ~alpha
  • beantownbeantown Member Posts: 228
    So, I don't think you can conclude that glitches automatically kill sales.

    I didn't. Read my post again and you'll see that we are in agreement. A glitch isn't a problem....not fixing it is. And that is what's happening here IMO.

    Many of the owners of these 06s feel that a fix is a long ways away. They are starting to feel betrayed by Honda because they are being told only that "a fix is not available for these tranny problems." The 07s will be here before you know it. How many 07s can they really expect to sell if it becomes known that they are in the second year of a problem that has yet to be fixed, with no hint of a fix even on the horizon? I doubt it'll be enough to unseat the Corolla.
  • meateatermeateater Member Posts: 123
    A handful of people complaining about a issue on a message board does not a problem make, except for in the eyes of the people who want to make it a problem. There's some in every crowd. I think the long term prognosis of the new Civic will be a total success.
  • beantownbeantown Member Posts: 228
    Do a google search for "honda civic lug bug" and you'll see more than just a "handful of people" on one message board.
  • tinatinatinatina Member Posts: 388
    I am not knowlegable enough to comment about the Civic's problems in that area. Although I like Honda products (and Toyota), it (Civic, Corolla, Fit, etc.) is not a vehicle I would consider. I regularly post on the Accord and Pilot threads (sorry thread police - I know its not a midsize car). Only time will tell whether Honda has bungled this. I know of problems with early 2003 Accords and pre-2003 models. My 2000 was given a powertrain warranty extension by Honda even though I never had a problem.

    Also, a tad bit of caution may be in order, those who post problems here, are really a small sample of total ownership. Finally, to conclude that the Civic's sales will be hurt by the Fit, its a bit speculative. The Fit has just hit ground, so its way too early to tell.

    Happy Motoring over Memorial Day.
  • ontopontop Member Posts: 279
    to conclude that the Civic's sales will be hurt by the Fit, its a bit speculative

    I think it'll be the other way around. Once the Fit novelty wears off, and people see that the Civic gets better gas mileage, has more room, and is safer, the Civic will continue to be a car people WANT.

    The new Accord will be a real looker IMO.
  • tinatinatinatina Member Posts: 388
    I could not have said it better.
  • mtnman1mtnman1 Member Posts: 431
    I was very close minded myself about Hyundai until I test drove one. Now I will consider Hyundai anytime I'm in the market to buy a new vehicle. Call me crazy, but I don't think you throw in a 10 year warranty unless you are confident in the cars your selling.
    2012 Highlander Limited AWD V6 and 2015 Ford Fusion Hybrid SE
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    CE's just seem to be arriving. Still the turn rate is very very high. It seems that the magnetic grey, barcelona red and blue ribbon colors are getting the most attention.

    Deliverd my first Prius in Magnetic Grey and it too is an eyeful.
  • booyahcramerbooyahcramer Member Posts: 172
    Check out the exclusions, exceptions, and prorations in the warranty and get back to me.

    I don't buy cars based on the warranty. I buy based on their long term report card. Honda/Acura's earned my dollars.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Obviously the 06+ is too new, but the long-term report card for the outgoing generation Sonata is quite good.
  • seniorjoseseniorjose Member Posts: 277
    The 10-year warranty is only offered because of ALL the problems with Hyundai in the 80s and 90s. If they were reliable autos, there would not have to be a 100,000 mile warranty -- original owner's only...tyring to get them to rebuy an auto noted for it's poor history and unreliability! As for the 100,000 mile warranty ...just try to uise it!
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Yes, if the Hyundais in the 80s and 90s had been super-reliable, there would not be the need for an exceptional warranty to bolster buyer confidence now. But consider that if Hyundais were unreliable now, the cost of the long warranty would be horrendous. Hyundais--including the Sonata--from about 2000 on have had a good reliability record.

    What have been your experiences in using the 100k warranty on the Sonata?
  • meateatermeateater Member Posts: 123
    The 06 Sonata is new. Once its out there for 5+ years, and worthwhile instead of anectdotal data is accumulated about the car's endurance etc, then I MIGHT consider buying a Hyundai. Until then I'll stick with Hondas and Toyotas, where I KNOW their long term reputation is excellent.
  • meateatermeateater Member Posts: 123
    Not if the 'warranty' is peppered with language to mitigate Hyundai's exposure and cost. Its done all the time in every industry. Warranty schwarranty.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    If you mean language like requiring regular maintenance to be done for the warranty to be in effect, I know about that. Also abuse is not covered. Still, I'd rather have a warranty with those kinds of limitations than no warranty at all--especially on costly components like automatic trannies, which we know from history do fail even on cars with good reliability records such as the Accord and Camry.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    The outgoing Sonata has demonstrated its reliabile worthness in many leading publications. Whether you like these studies or not, last year, the Sonata was voted as the most reliable model of all vehicles, per Consumer Reports. Further, JD Power VDS, ranked the Sonata third in entry midsize segment, behind Alero and Malibu.
  • mtnman1mtnman1 Member Posts: 431
    You probably wouldn't believe it, but I tell you anyway that I have and they gave me no trouble at all about fixing it. You probably know, at least I hope you do, that all car warranties have the same restrictions. You have to have an open mind about the Hyundai name. You might be surprised. I know I was. When I was looking for a new car a few years ago I had pretty much tested all the mid sized sedans in the $25K range. I was passing by a Hyundai dealership one day and decided oh what the hell I might as well at least look at the Sonata. I was very surprised. I did go through much torment over several weeks because it was a Hyundai about whether I should actually buy one. I did and I will in the future.
    2012 Highlander Limited AWD V6 and 2015 Ford Fusion Hybrid SE
  • w9cww9cw Member Posts: 888
    Hyundai's warranty has no exclusions which I would call major. You simply have to perform regular maintenance, keep the receipts, and you don't even have the maintenance performed at the dealer. For example, any prudent person would change the timing belt at the recommended service interval.

    I have absolutely no problem with Hyundai's warranty, as I maintain my Hyundai with the "book" being the worst-case maintenace interval reference.

    Look at it this way - if a Hyundai has improved its reliability over those in the past, and there's ample evidence that it has, a 10 year/100K powertrain warranty is simply icing on the cake.

    I've owned my Hyundai now for nearly 6 months, and there's been no "out-of-the-box" teething or quality issues, something that can't be said with previous new Hondas, Mazdas, Nissans, and Toyotas I've owned.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    Here are Edmunds' projected resale for the Camry and Sonata. I chose the LE v. the LX because they are the closest in price.

    2007 Camry 4 cyl. LE auto (JBL, Premium Accessory, and Sunroof)

    Current market price: $21,805
    Expected resale value (Year 5): $9,742
    Depreciation (Year 5): $12,063

    2006 Sonata LX

    Current market price: $19,170
    Expected resale value (Year 5): $7,038
    Depreciation (Year 5): $12,132

    --------------------------------------

    So, at least according to Edmunds, at year 5, you've lost the same amount of money to depreciation for both cars.

    Of course, the Sonata LX has a lot more "stuff" than the Camry LE, notably a V6 and leather, among others.

    A lot of times when publications talk about depreciation and resale, they are basing them off MSRP. So that will invariably result in poor showings for cars like the Sonata, whose street price is a LOT lower than MSRP.

    The correct metric to measure resale and depreciation is actual market price, not MSRP.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Do "Total Cash Price" and "Current market price" represent the same starting point?

    Also, a Camry LE 4 5A in most regions besides SET is $21,279 including floormats. How the heck is edmunds.com calling the "Cash Price" nearly $600 ABOVE MSRP. The Camry is a 400k unit/yr family car, its been out for almost 3 months, anyone paying MSRP or above is a fool....

    I think clarification of the starting point terminology is necessary to understand what those figures mean.

    ~alpha
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    In Edmunds' "Total Cash Price", local tax is included, so I just used their market price (which doesn't include tax).

    Also, their market price for the figure above includes JBL, Premium Accessory, and Sunroof (I edited the above post to say this). I couldn't get it to not include those. Let me know if you find a way to get it to not include those for the 2007 Camry LE auto when calculating resale.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    Okay, this is as close as I could get the two cars in terms of Edmunds current market price.

    2007 Camry 4 cyl. CE auto

    Current market price: $19,347
    Expected resale value (Year 5): $8,404
    Depreciation (Year 5): $10,943

    2006 Sonata LX

    Current market price: $19,170
    Expected resale value (Year 5): $7,038
    Depreciation (Year 5): $12,132

    -------------------------

    So, in this scenario, the Sonata LX has cost you about $1200 more in depreciation after 5 years. Not a bad price to pay, considering that it has a lot more features than the Camry CE.
  • beantownbeantown Member Posts: 228
    Further, JD Power VDS, ranked the Sonata third in entry midsize segment, behind Alero and Malibu.

    Any chart that has the Alero, Malibu and Sonata as the top 3 was most likely drawn up by someone throwing darts at a piece of paper.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    The market prices are highly variable. Someone just posted in the Sonata Prices Paid discussion that they got an LX for $17,300 + T&L. There might be better deals to be had on the CE also.
  • beantownbeantown Member Posts: 228
    Enough with the Edmunds "projected resale values" already. They are not accurate. I owned a 2003 Rav4 for just under 3 years. I paid $20,500 for it and traded it in for $18,000. According to your beloved Edmunds "projected resale value" I probably should've only gotten around $16,000 for it. These numbers should never be used to support an argument as there are just too many variables to consider.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    Enough with the Edmunds "projected resale values" already. They are not accurate. I owned a 2003 Rav4 for just under 3 years. I paid $20,500 for it and traded it in for $18,000. According to your beloved Edmunds "projected resale value" I probably should've only gotten around $16,000 for it. These numbers should never be used to support an argument as there are just too many variables to consider.

    Right... I'm sure your one RAV4 example is more reliable.

    The Edmunds calculations are based on "averages", so you would EXPECT it to be variable from one case to another.

    I can't vouchsafe for the accuracy of Edmunds' projections. But the point is, there is no evidence that it has a favorable bias for the Sonata v. the Camry (or vice versa).

    There is a lot of ballyhooing about the Sonata's poor resale. Comparing projected numbers from a respected auto publication is at least more tangible than the following scenario, which you see a lot around here.

    Camry fan: "I wouldn't consider a Sonata because its resale will stink."

    Sonata fan: "Its resale won't stink."

    Camry fan: "Yes it will."

    Sonata fan: "No it won't."

    and so on...
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    The market prices are highly variable. Someone just posted in the Sonata Prices Paid discussion that they got an LX for $17,300 + T&L. There might be better deals to be had on the CE also.

    I'm sure that there are better deals, and worse deals, than Edmunds market price. It's just their calculation of the average. LX for $17,300. That's a great deal.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    In defense of JD Power, and especially Consumer Reports (a not-for-profit organization), the validity of sample size is as greater as one is able collect; and the sample size itself is large enough to validate the study.

    Keep in mind I am in full agreement that the Accord and Camry are two of the most reliable cars currently in the market (but still worth noting similar glitches are found just like they are with other vehicles). Whether or not you agree with these results posted, your conclusion in regards to the JD Power results, "likely drawn up by someone throwing darts at a piece of paper" is ignorant at best. These results are drawn with more-than-adequate supporting information.

    My point is directed to those continue being skeptical at the proven reliable-worthiness of the Sonata; even quality results for the car have been surging at an amazing pace. The Sonata clinching the most reliable vehicle (per CR) and #3 (behind Malibu & Alero) in the entry midsize segment of Vehicle Dependability (per JD Power) in 2005 are not something refutable.
  • choe13choe13 Member Posts: 348
    some facts

    -hyundai wants to be one of the top 5 automakers in the world

    -hyundai invests 1 billion dollar(not small potatoes) on a state of the art car facility

    -hyundai claims the sonata going through rigirous weather tests, torture tests etc

    -Jd power and other credible reliability magz(putting their reputation on the line) states the sonata is #3 in reliability

    - articles that the ceo's of the company turned back a whole set of made cars costing thousands to make, since there was a miniscule defect most other automakers wouldn't bother fixing

    - Toyota the #2 auto company ceo states , hyundai is the one car company they are scared of

    I don't know i feel like i'm on crazy pills, but what else do you non belivers want?? with all of these facts what are the chances, hyundai took a chance and cared little to make a car that was not going to be reliable??

    I don't why there is hope that this car will falter, because it is highly unlikely at this point
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    I think clarification of the starting point terminology is necessary to understand what those figures mean.

    None of that even matters to the average new car seller or buyer. It matters only to the "industry" for statistical purposes. The astute seller is not impressed with the industry averages. Smart owners take good care of their cars. They asks for and usually get top dollar for their used car of any make. Anyone that trades in his used car gets bottom dollar. If it's OK with them, it's OK with me.
  • choe13choe13 Member Posts: 348
    My friends dad bought a top of the line v4 camry last month and bought his son the v4 sonata a week ago for a graduation present. But my friend hasn't had a chance to touch his own car since his dad has been hogging it around haha. My friend is driving the camry instead but he is angry at his dad.

    Just a funny story. Not to bash any 07 camry owners, but i've heard and seen alot of camcord to newly changed sonata owners but not the other way around. Times have certainly changed from 5-10 years ago in the mid size , definitely. Alot of legit options out there, my personal choice of course being the sonata
  • master1master1 Member Posts: 340
    Just a minor correction - it's a 4 cylinder, not V4. If it was a V4, it wouldn't make that common "put put put" noise. ;)
  • choe13choe13 Member Posts: 348
    i don't understand why messeges have to be personal

    "Say something negative about it, and your post gets deleted"

    Because this car has nothing negative about it, cept perhaps long term quality belivableness. Now i never said it beats honda in the engine department, toyota in proven reliability credentials, mazda 6's handling but i can't think of one thing this car is not at least above average in(the things that matter)

    CAn't say the same about the current altima, pontiac g6, mailbu, impala and can't deny that honda and toyota really need some stronger brakes(minor but essential complaint).

    And i'am buying one already as of sept, just waiting for the 2007's.(i was also thinking about the 07 santa fe )
  • thesniperthesniper Member Posts: 44
    "My friends dad bought a top of the line v4 camry last month and bought his son the v4 sonata a week ago for a graduation present. But my friend hasn't had a chance to touch his own car since his dad has been hogging it around haha. My friend is driving the camry instead but he is angry at his dad.

    Just a funny story. Not to bash any 07 camry owners, but i've heard and seen alot of camcord to newly changed sonata owners but not the other way around. Times have certainly changed from 5-10 years ago in the mid size , definitely. Alot of legit options out there, my personal choice of course being the sonata"

    Stop fooling around.

    Anyway, it's I4, not V4. You can't call it a typo coz I is far from V on the keyboard.
  • ftrainftrain Member Posts: 29
    Chloe, since you mention the 2007 Sonata, one thing to ask them about that the salesman told me about a few weeks ago when I was shopping cars was that the 2007 Sonata is dropping traction and stability control as standard equipment--they're becoming options. He even showed me a spec sheet comparing the 2006 and 2007. (He also seemed surprised by that as soon as he showed me, and then quickly put it away and acted like maybe he wasn't supposed to be talking about that spec sheet.) Anyway, not sure if that is already common knowledge (I haven't been on the Sonata board enough), but if you're seriously shopping the Sonata this fall, you might want to check that and depending on what else they do to the new model, you might find that the 2006 is the better bargain.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    That is very much incorrect. The 2007MY Sonatas will continue to offer TCS and ESC (as well as host of safety equipment/features such as ABS, 6 airbags, dual active head restriant) standard, even on the base model.

    There are additions and modifications to the 07s, a few to note:

    17" are now offered at every trim (new trims: GLS, SE, Limited)
    Black leather
    Ultimate package (platinum badging, platinum stiched floormats, rear lip spolier, chrome side moldings)
    Telescopic steering wheel on all trims

    There are other neat changes, stay tuned...
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    The Accords braking distances may be unimpressive, but the new Camry uses discs at every corner on all models- like the Sonata, unlike the Accord- and has posted commendable braking performance in all media tests.

    ~alpha
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    You actually saw a spec sheet showing that traction and stability are becoming optional? This would obliterate, for me, a big competitive advantage of the Sonata, though many folks might not care so long as you still get ABS and the gamut of airbags...

    ~alpha
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Any word on whether the power driver's seat will be standard also, or at least available as a separate option?
  • alan_salan_s Member Posts: 362
    As an ex-Lexus and Toyota customer, now that Toyota’s bullet-proof reliability is showing holes in the Kevlar, I recently purchased a loaded Altima 3.5SL. I just couldn't warm up to the somewhat quirky Maxima.

    The 3.5SL is probably the finest car I’ve had at any price.

    The drive train is perfectly matched with the transmission and the handling and braking dynamics are superb. The ride in the roomy SL is very smooth while being well damped, conveying a sense of confidence and control. Interior furnishings may not initially appear to be as plush as those found in Toyotas or Hondas, but are comfortable, well-assembled and made of soft but durable, high quality materials that won’t scratch easily, unlike those found in the 2007 Camry. The unusual dashboard and instrumentation design and illumination are pleasingly different, adding to the sporty but luxurious overtone that this 3.5SL exudes. Controls are well placed and operate with a feeling of quality and precision. The 3.5SL is loaded with a surprising number of useful amenities and upgrades that raise the status of this car into entry-level luxury territory.

    On the road, the 3.5SL is quietly confident. While Edmunds has criticized the Altima for its road noise, I have found it to ride quieter and smoother than the new Avalon, even with the low-spec OEM Continentals as standard attire. Perhaps Nissan have paid attention in the noise attenuation department, because this 3.5SL glides along with the smoothness and comportment of a luxury car. Everything is tightly constructed with no rattles or strange noises, and the body feels as tight as a tank. The proven VQ engine is extremely smooth, sweet and willing and can propel you well into illegal velocities, before you can switch CD tracks in the surprisingly powerful and authentic sounding Bose sound system. The drive-by-wire throttle control system operates harmoniously and without hesitation. Engine and transmission management systems communicate seamlessly as they should – something other manufacturers have yet to master.

    The 3.5SL is an absolute blast to drive - I look forward to every trip and make every excuse to take it for a run. It is like a happy puppy that loves to frolic. Whether in traffic or on the open road, the 3.5SL is sweet, tractable, controllable and like a fighter-jet, can instantly break the sound barrier on demand. This car feels as if you are wearing it as opposed to driving it. It responds intuitively - Nissan has paid obvious attention to steering and handling dynamics. All this wrapped up in one of the most attractive and svelte exteriors with four doors on the market today.

    Before you plunk down thousands more for a V6 Toyota, you owe it to yourself to take a long test-drive in a 3.5 equipped Altima. You may well discover that this underrated Altima 3.5SL is one of the industries' quiet secrets.

    Unlike most products, this car delivers far more than it promises. Grab one now in case Nissan spoils something with the upcoming 2007 model!
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Fine review. It leads me to wonder why the Altima doesn't get more attention/respect from the automotive press. Lately its "all about" the Camry/Accord/Fusion/Sonata in the midsized class, or so it seems. I expect the 2007 model will garner some attention, with the inevitable comparos of Altima vs. Camry vs. Accord (vs. Fusion vs. Sonata), probably with the Aura thrown in there too.

    BTW, is there anything you don't like about the Altima 3.5SL? ;)
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    Outstanding! Just 1 more reason the midsize group is the most refined and competitive in the entire industry.
  • alan_salan_s Member Posts: 362
    Ummm... can I get back to you on that one?
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    The Accord V6 is smaller, lighter, smoother, more fuel efficient, runs on regular unleaded, and will pass another car (most important) just as quickly or quicker than Altima or Sonata. Also, Accord interior looks much better than either of them. Altima has better handling at the expense of a smooth ride. Sonata has a smooth ride at the expense of handling. Accord is the best of both worlds (ride and handling). Accord is #1.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    Accord is #1.

    I didn't know we were having a contest. What are the rules? Can I play? :D

    The competitiveness could explain a lot of the spirited discussion that goes on here.

    To me, it's not about winning. It's about choosing the right car for yourself according to your likes, dislikes, needs, and budget. No matter which car in this class you choose, there is always a car that has a better feature or 2. It boils down to where you place your priorities. I like them all, but unfortunately I could only afford 1. I didn't "win", but I got a nice ride that suits my needs, and I am perfectly happy with it. I bet I would be happy with that Altima too! ;)
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Backy, the 8-way power driver's seat is standard on the LX trim, and optional on the GLS trim, AFAIK for the 2006 model year. For 2007, let me find out for you...
  • alan_salan_s Member Posts: 362
    I was impressed with the Accord too, but the EX V6 rode way too hard for me on those standard 17" wheels and low profile tires. IMHO the manufacturers have gone overboard with those big wheels and rubber-band tires at the expense of ride quality. Perhaps offer them as an option, as I'll take 16" wheels with much lower cost tires that provide a smoother ride. The Altima 3.5SL rides much softer than the Accord - this may not be true with the 3.5SE.
    The Accord VTEC engine was very responsive but didn't have the low-end torque of the Altima, but I can't argue that the Accord isn't an excellent choice. Our other vehicle is a Pilot and it is faultless.
    The Azera impressed me too, but resale value is still in the tank which is a real pity. This will no doubt change in time.
    One thing I didn't find in any car except the Altima - Nissan has somehow built in a soul. This thing is *almost* alive!
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