Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

choe13 · June 2006

i would take an audi a4 or mercedez c class than a bmw, i agree with the graduate, the interior is not luxurious enoughh for the rip off price

I would not go with a bmw compared to a sonata any day, in terms of practicality. You are talking about insurance costs premium, highers gas costs(premium fuel), higher costs for repairs and maintenance. It is no wonder why alot of ex bmw owners from what i've seen are now new mazda 3 owners

i would too, its just smart

m1miata · June 2006

And may I add, stability control is standard, as is a lower price, so more people can afford this safe class of car.
For safety the Sonata and Accord would be a statistical tie.
Here this site the Sonata is better ranked. In the real world, a whole lot of luck, or those guardian angels, become the ultimate factor. And big doesn't hurt - go buy a Ford FiveHundred for close to the ultimate safety zone.

I owned an Achieva. Looks up those safety figures. I lived through that era. Here I am typing away. Sometime I think back to the days riding in the back of a pickup truck, rolling down the highway, or through the mountain roads. And the motorcycle years - risky no doubt. So I guess a Sonata is about nearest to perfection I could come to being safe. This however doesn't mean I would plan on staring down a train, or playing chicken on I5 freeway, just because I had some safer car. Why I drive a 2005 PT. Oh daredevil me.
-Loren

driverdm · June 2006

Now I have really seen it all. A Sonata over a BMW. Are you serious? Do you think your average Bimmer owner even has the Sonata on their shopping list? This thread has lost much of its appeal as the Sonata faithful have taken over all conversations, praising the car. To compare a Sonata with any BMW is ridiculous. BMW is a upper luxury unit with vehicles that hold the pinnacle in their class. Lexus, Merc, Acura, Infiniti, all publicly target the 3 Series because it is the best of the best in that league. A Sonata is something to be laughed at in comparison. The fit and finish, the material quality, the driving dynamics, the pure luxury, everything makes the Sonata exactly what it is in comparison, a mid-size family sedan from a volume seller.

PS. Luxury and particality are almost mutually exclusive. BMW 3 Series sales are higher now than ever before. I don't think they are losing sleep wondering how to compete with Mazda ot Hyundai.

goodegg · June 2006

I have really seen it all. A Sonata over a BMW. Are you serious?

The pro-Hyundaiers here will say anything. Sure BMW isn't known for their luxurious interiors, but Hyundai isn't known for its 'gotta have' factor.

bobad · June 2006

To compare a Sonata with any BMW is ridiculous. BMW is a upper luxury unit with vehicles that hold the pinnacle in their class. Lexus, Merc, Acura, Infiniti, all publicly target the 3 Series because it is the best of the best in that league. A Sonata is something to be laughed at in comparison. The fit and finish, the material quality, the driving dynamics, the pure luxury, everything makes the Sonata exactly what it is in comparison, a mid-size family sedan from a volume seller.

I agree. Statements like "I would take a Sonata over a BMW any day" are indeed ridiculous. Think about it. Is the person BUYING the car? If so, a similarly equipped BMW costs nearly 2X as much. Believe me, if someone is car shopping, they do not choose between those 2! Are the cars being given to you free? You take the BMW, sell it, and buy the Sonata and pocket $20K. So the statement still makes no sense.

Having agreed with you on the first part, I challenge you to park the cars side by side and check the paint and body panel fit. You may be surprised. Until you do that comparison, you may think the BMW is worth 2X the price. Now the interior of the BMW is significantly better, but still not worth $20K to me. V6's just don't get much better than the Sonata's, so that's a wash. Handling goes soundly to BMW, but since I don't race, I don't care. Status? You can take a truck load of status to the coffee shop and get a cup of coffee, but it still costs you a buck.

choe13 · June 2006

I challenge you to test drive a mazda 3 compared to say a bmw 323 and you will see why there would be no point to spend 20 k extra(for the name bmw, rear wheel set up, etc)

The mazda 3 is certainly quieter on idle, drive, honestly the interior fit seems tighter(quality goes to bmw), handling suprisingly are comparible(very noticeble torque steer), space is comparible all IMO. If you want to buy almost 10 k worth of bmw emblem and so called prestiege, i rather laugh my way to the bank with an extra 10 k with a good enough comparable sporty mazda 3.

Even the sonata is very comparable to the bmw in some ways, and beats it in interior space, v6 idle, quieter ride, gas costs, even looks imo(new bmw is horrific in looks).

my point is that quality of cars even all the way down to the mid size category have improved 2x that there isn't really a point of buying a bmw anymore if your a certain buyer that doesn't care about handling and prestiege name(which are two of the highest reason why a bmw is bought in the first place)

maxamillion1 · June 2006

That's why half the time I hate coming in this forum.

A Sonata vs. a BMW 3-Series?

Sometimes I wonder...

jrock65 · June 2006

One poster reported his observations that the paint on his Sonata seemed to be of better quality than the paint quality on a 3 series that he saw, which is NOT ridiculous.

Others somehow turned that into a general BMW v. Sonata thing.

maxamillion1 · June 2006

but for some folks to take it as a Sonata vs. BMW comparison IS RIDICULOUS.

jrock65 · June 2006

Agree.

jrock65 · June 2006

When is the 6 scheduled for a redesign?

meateater · June 2006

mazda 3 compared to say a bmw 323

BMW hasn't made a 323 since 2000. You can have your Sonata. I'll take the BMW. With your thinking and logic BMW should be out of business by now. But they continue to prosper because they are more than just a bunch of cars parts slapped together, which is exactly what a Sonata is. Sounds like BMW envy, which, of course, Hyundai will never have. And a Mazda 3 vs. a 325? Wow. What are you having for breakfast?

w9cw · June 2006

maxamillion1 wrote: "but for some folks to take it as a Sonata vs. BMW comparison IS RIDICULOUS."

Driving dynamics and quality of materials of the BMW are certainly superior to the Sonata - no question. As the OP stated, compare the paint side-by-side, and I think you'll be very surprised. However, check back with the respective owners after 100K and see who's spent more on maintenance and repairs. I'll place my bet on the BMW. Of course, those who buy BMW's really shouldn't have to worry about the cost of maintenance - right.

It's funny, I bought my first new BMW in 1968 for $2,800. They weren't the "up market" marque as they are now - neither were SAAB or Volvo either, as all could be had for less than a Chevy.

thesniper · June 2006

"The pro-Hyundaiers here will say anything. Sure BMW isn't known for their luxurious interiors, but Hyundai isn't known for its 'gotta have' factor."

Yeah, they will say anything... I won't be surprised at all if they even say that the new James Bond movie will be a flop because they used Aston Martin instead of their beloved Hyundai.

Sonata... definitely a 3 series beater. It's interior was even compared to a Lexus and S class in a post before.

kdshapiro · June 2006

"However, check back with the respective owners after 100K and see who's spent more on maintenance and repairs."

I agree, I've seen Sonatas after 100K, they do not stand the test of time very well. Maybe the new ones are different. BMWs on the other hand... there is very little one needs to do to keep them looking new through 100K.

The Sonata does make a compelling choice in the value equation however. For thousands less than a Camry or Accord it's tough to beat.

BTW you can always make the observation the more expensive car loses on value...always.

driverdm · June 2006

"One poster reported his observations that the paint on his Sonata seemed to be of better quality than the paint quality on a 3 series that he saw, which is NOT ridiculous.

Others somehow turned that into a general BMW v. Sonata thing."

You've got to read the entire posts from pages back. Someone worte "I'd take a Sonata over a BMW any day". If that isn't comparing a Sonata to a BMW, I don't know what is.

bobad · June 2006

You've got to read the entire posts from pages back. Someone worte "I'd take a Sonata over a BMW any day". If that isn't comparing a Sonata to a BMW, I don't know what is.

That depends on what you mean by "take". Does take mean "buy"? If so, I would take a Sonata any day. Does "take" imply the cars are free? If so, I would take the BMW any day, sell it, buy a Sonata, and keep the change. Since I keep my cars for 10+ years, I have no use for a 40K car that costs a fortune to maintain. My Audi was wonderful, but parts were brutally expensive. For example, a power window machanism cost $500 + labor. The BMW is probably just as expensive.

pat · June 2006

Not only is "BMW vs Sonata" laughable, the BMW is not one of our subject vehicles.

Let's move on.

driverdm · June 2006

"V6's just don't get much better than the Sonata's"

Okay how about the Accord V6, The New Camry V6, the VQ from Nissan that keeps winning engine awards. How about the Mercedes V6. How about the VWV6 in the Passat. How about the Honda V-TEC or the one in the TL? how about the new Ford V6 in the Edge? How about GM's new high feature V6s?

In the V6 range, the Sonata's isn't all that great and nothing to get excited about. Especially when you have things like the VQ pushing upwards to 300+ hp and Toyota's 3.5 with 305hp and the new Ford engine that has 265hp on its first application. The current Accord and new Camry have better V6's already. The Fusion will get the new 3.5 soon enough. I'll give you that the Hyundai V6 is better than the V6 that Chyrsler and Dodge now offer though or the pathetic one in the Kia Optima.

driverdm · June 2006

Sorry, was typing while you posted.

jrock65 · June 2006

"You've got to read the entire posts from pages back. Someone worte "I'd take a Sonata over a BMW any day". If that isn't comparing a Sonata to a BMW, I don't know what is."

That comment was based on the significantly higher costs of owning a BMW. Not that the Sonata is a better overall car than a 3 series.

pat · June 2006

with BMW, please - if we can't stop talking about it, I'll be removing posts without notice.

pat · June 2006

I knew that. No worries here.

pat · June 2006

Maybe we could lighten up a little ... anybody seen the movie Cars?

(I know it's not on topic, but we need a break from the tension in here lately, don't you think?

)

maxamillion1 · June 2006

...

I'm not impressed...

bobad · June 2006

In the V6 range, the Sonata's isn't all that great and nothing to get excited about.

I'm not really excited about it. It's so quiet and smooth, I can't hear or feel it running inside the cabin. What good would it do to make an engine even smoother and quieter when I can't detect it now? If I needed more power, the 305hp Toyota engine would be interesting to me. I think the Sonata 3.3 has more than enough power for every day use. It certainly has more than enough for me.

badgerfan · June 2006

I haven't seen Cars, but from the previews they all have state of the art voice navigation systems!

Seriously, this discussion seems to always get back to Sonata vs the world, and gets very tiring, but like a moth to a lightbulb, I keeping coming back to see if anything useful/logical gets posted............

baggs32 · June 2006

Wow, is that really the new Sebring? :confuse:

Looks like a five year old Saturn IMO. Pretty weak if you ask me. We all know they can do much better than that at DCX. At least in the looks dept.

maxamillion1 · June 2006

Indeed it does look like a slightly longer Saturn Ion with wierd details to it.

I'm not feeling the car at ALL.

pat · June 2006

The only way that vehicle is going to leave this discussion is if people who don't want it here quit mentioning it.

It would be nice to explore some other vehicles in the category for a while.

backy · June 2006

I am feeling this car. Yes, definitely feeling something... uhhhh, excuse me, need to run to the bathroom!!! :sick:

OK, so it's not that bad. But it is definitely a car I will add to my small list of cars that I will not buy on looks alone.

maxamillion1 · June 2006

Yea it does give you that go ole quesy feeling...

If the exterior of the Sebring is giving out so much grief (check out other forums, so far it's not liked) I can ONLY imagine what the interior will look like...

thegraduate · June 2006

I think I just threw up in my mouth.

Well, Chrysler apparently thought a one-hit-wonder was enough (300C), but I'd say they're sadly mistaken here.

It's a combo of a Chrysler Crossfire nose, a Saturn Ion Sedan body, and Toyota Avalon/Lincoln Zephyr rear-end. A strange and ungainly combination, IMO.

alpha01 · June 2006

No joke max, and I really don't like to debate styling ever b/c its so dang subjective... but I thought EXACTLY the same thing!!!

Actually, when I first saw the Sebring post, I thought Pat might remove it 'cuase what the heck is the ION redesign doing on the Midsize thread?

Then, I realized...

But then, I think the Camry is MUCH more attractive in person than in some unflattering pics....

You never know.

~alpha

jrock65 · June 2006

"Chrome door handles and wheels similar in design to those used on the Crossfire also mark this prototype as a Chrysler. A unique C-pillar shape is this Sebring's most definitive change compared to the current model, giving the car's rear end a new slope-backed look. Pretty or not, it gives the sedan a distinctive design in a segment known for unremarkable styling.

Built on a platform shared with Mitsubishi, the Sebring will be front-wheel drive and ride on a fully independent suspension. We expect to see a typical lineup of engines starting with the same 2.4-liter four-cylinder used in the Dodge Caliber. There's a chance Chrysler may decide to forego the four-cylinder option to elevate the Sebring's status above the Avenger, but the carmaker would be giving up a large chunk of the market by doing so. A 2.7-liter V6 will be the midgrade engine and, according to speculation by allpar.com, it will be a flex-fuel engine capable of running on E85 ethanol.

Top-of-the-line models were expected to get Chrysler's current 3.5-liter V6; although, with competitors like the 268-horsepower Camry and 280-hp Volkswagen Passat, expect to see its current 250-hp rating bumped up a notch or two. Additional help will come in the form of a new six-speed automatic while lower trim levels will get a standard four-speed.

Expect to see an official unveil of the Sebring sedan and convertible by early summer with sales starting later this year."

Sebring looks better in other spy shots.

bobad · June 2006

Seriously, this discussion seems to always get back to Sonata vs the world

Funny how we perceive it differently. I see it as the world vs Sonata.

When Toyota and Honda roll out a decent, well equipped mid sized car for $19K, you will see plenty of talk about them too!

maxamillion1 · June 2006

I can't wait to see a car comparison of the Aura, Sonata, Camry, Accord, Altima, G6, Fusion and Passat later this year.

They always seem to release these comparisons during the fall of the year (right when the new ones are about to debut) I wonder if the new Altima will make it to the comparison tests seeing as it won't be released until Nov.

I can't wait to see who comes out on top (although I already have an idea)

maxamillion1 · June 2006

LOL...not just Edmunds.

Consumer Reports, Car and Driver (If Honda doesn't win it, it wil be second LOL), Road and Track, Motor Trend, etc. etc.

I get a feeling the Camry is gonna be winning a lot of Comparison tests this time around.

1487 · June 2006

I dont think the PAssat belongs in that category based on price. The Passat is more of a CTS/TL/MKZ competitor if you ask me.

I'm sure the camry is going to come in first in any upcoming family sedan tests unless the Altima is deemed superior. The question is who comes in second place.

I am not feelin the new Sebring pictures so far. Perhaps that will change when the official photos are released tomorrow.

m1miata · June 2006

Steering response/feel is usually where they have deducted points before. The new one seems to be the same in that regard - soft handling. Not sure if the sports editions are the same or not. I like the funny nose on the SE better than the bump nose with the standard model. Camry is looking a bit interesting these days. Shall we say a little stylish? The light wood color doesn't look good, IMHO, with the gray plastics. Perhaps a good tan, or camel color would work better. With the grays, aluminum, or darker-red or walnut wood seems like a match. Seems like a fine car overall. -Loren

1487 · June 2006

A someone already stated, the Impala and GXP offer 303hp for the price of an Accord EX V6. The Accord is far from the most powerful family sedan on the market. As for mileage, the Impala SS gets 18/28 which is by no means gas guzzler territory. The GM cars have the most hp in the segment, not the camry. The camry's engine is impressive but it's only 28 more hp than the GP had in 1998 and 8 more than the 2004 GP offered so pardon me if I'm not blown away.

The Aura hybrid is due out in late 2006 or ealy 2007, not a year from now. Ford has a hybrid Fusion coming for 2008. I doubt they will make the same mistake as honda and price their hybrids over $30k and gear them for performance. That is just silly. Most people are expecting the Aura hybrid to be around $25k to start and offer mileage gains similar to the Accord hybrid. I'm not going ot try to defend the Altima hybrids because Nissan is making a mistake in offering the car in limited markets. Very stupid.

The question isnt whether or not Honda will go all out, the question is whether or not it's possible to create a class dominating benchmark in today's market. The answer is no. The camry probably beats all the competition that existed when it launched, but it will hardly be considered the hands down champion once the Altima and Aura hit the streets. Even the Sebring may be competitive based on what I've read so far.

Has anyone seen the changes to the '07 Fusion? It got navigation, AWD, mp3 jack, standard side/curtain airbags and satelite radio. It really needed those changes big time but I dont understand why Ford wont offer stability on its cars.

joe97 · June 2006

Objectively speaking, the Sonata 3.3L V6 is more than adequate for the needs of today's driving. The engine is smooth and extremly quite, even at full throttle.

I wonder, how many horsepowers do we need in a family sedan? Is 500hp enough?

By the way, as for this discussion, midsize sedans, I wasn't aware Toyota and Nissan, respectively, are hitting 300+hp with their offering of family sedans.

m1miata · June 2006

I think not. The Camry MPG figures are 22/31, which considering the HP is outstanding at 268 HP. The gas mileage of DoD depends on it being babied along. The 18/28 MPG sounds good. If you want a V8 just get a Northstar if GM is your thing. Going to get 24 MPG or better without all the razzle dazzle DoD thing. My guess is that both engines achieve around the same real world gas mileage.
-Loren

goodegg · June 2006

If horsepower is the only factor considered when buying a car then we'd all own a Mustang GT. The Accord's fit, finish, and feel is superior to all in its class, and this is for a car designed 5 years ago.

Yea this sector has changed a lot since the CamCord only days, but the CamCord still dominates, and they don't have to give them away to get the sales.

The new Accord will be sweet. An Indy 500 engine wrapped up in a aircraft cockpit feeling body. Count on it.

elroy5 · June 2006

The question isnt whether or not Honda will go all out, the question is whether or not it's possible to create a class dominating benchmark in today's market. The answer is no.

The answer is YES. Honda always does very well in comparisons. Why? you might ask. Because the Accord is so well thought out. The people who do comparison tests do more than just test drive the cars. They actually test them. Experienced testers know what to look for, and what is most important to the average consumer. Honda can make the Accord as good as they need it to be. The Accord is never the smooth est riding, the quiet est, the best handling, or the best looking car in the comparisons. It usually comes out on top (or near the top) because of how it works in everyday use. The Accord just seems to find that perfect balance, and has that special feel, that others can't match. It may not win the 07 comparison tests, but it will do more than hold it's own against much newer competition. The Camry may win this year, but it's time on top will be short lived (one year).

scape2 · June 2006

BMW- for one pure status symbol. You pay alot of money for status and an unreliable vehicle. If you coulc get past the status thing... take a look at some stats of vehicles that do cost even 1/2 the price. Some out accelerate the BMW, out slalom, out brake ect for thousands less..
But I guess if you want just status.. and a car that says.. look at me!@ I make more money than you.. my dad didn't hug me enough.. ..

elroy5 · June 2006

the Impala SS gets 18/28 which is by no means gas guzzler territory.

If you plan on using any of that 303 hp, you will be guzzling some gas. If you're going to baby it enough to get that kind of mileage, you might as well get a 4 cyl. Only 4 cylinders will be firing anyway.

scape2 · June 2006

about HP wars.. how much HP is really enough for a family sedan? 200? 300? 500? 1000?? Its almost like the manufacturers are concentrating so hard on winning HP awards they seem to forget about functionality, ride, handling, balance.
For me, I don't need a 300HP family sedan. If I wanted that kind of power I would buy a Mustang, Charger, or soon to be Camaro. My message to manufactures.. get back to basics for the family sedan, your getting off track with all the hype over HP and 0-60 numbers. With traffic the way it is now in most major cities.. you'll never get to use it anyway.. :sick:

maxamillion1 · June 2006

V8...and that in itself would turn a number of buyers away without even lookin at the gas mileage....the fact that the car has a V8 engine.

Further, I did not say the Accord was the most powerful, but that it had more horsepower than MANY of its competitors (Fusion, Sonata, Mazda6, Malibu, just to name a few)

And if you'd take the time to read my posts you'd see that I ACKNOWLEDGED that the Domestic were far ahead in the horsepower game back in the 80s and 90s...

I don't think what Nissan is doing is stupid with the Hybrid. So far Hybrids still have limited appeal...I think they are waiting to see how Toyota and Honda's hybrid vehicles pan out before they get into the game. I think Nissan is ONLY using the Hybrid so that it can met some type of gas mileage requirement (or so I heard, and I work for a Nissan dealer now)

I'm not a betting man...but I'm sure Honda is going to do what it did the last time they had to redesign a car...benchmark everybody...they always do because they get the extra year to work out the kinks and add some features.

Back when the Camry and new Altima hit the scene in 2001, EVERYBODY thought the Accord was doomed...nope...2003 came along...and Honda was once again the benchmark.

Let's be real...if Honda can design Acura's cars to at least be competitive in some shape or form with their luxury counterparts, what in the world makes you think Honda can't do the same thing...

Also, the difference between what Honda does compared to Toyota and Nissan is this...every time the Camry or Altima get's redesigned, it leapfrogs the Accord a bit...but by the time the new Accord comes out it continues ruling until the next "new" generation of cars comes out. Case in point...in just about ALL comparisons with the Accord vs. the competition it comes in first place (except: Consumer Reports and Edmunds.com test of the 'Nata V6 vs I4 Camcords and maybe one other test)

But any other comparison test done by say Car and Driver, Road and Track and Motor Trend that compares the Accord with the Camry, Altima, Sonata and others, the Accord usually comes out on top unless a new camry hits the lots...and by the next year Honda takes over again.

The Camry might be the bigger seller, but OVERALL, it's the Accord that's considered the benchmark of this class...it has almost always been that way. In Comparison test, its the Accord that usually always wins...and even in the days when the Accord ONLY made 200 hp vs. the 240 in the Accord and 225 in the Camry the Accord usually STILL won...and if it didn't it was so close with the Camry that they nearly tied (recent Edmunds.com comparo)

Now that's refinement and that's the quality of a "benchmark" sedan.

I'm not a Honda bragger (I drive a Nissan) but this is the way it almost ALWAYS turns out.

When the Accord is redesigned, it will be another 3 plus years before the "compeition" is redesigned again (except for the Malibu and Mazda6)

So as I have stated, if Honda has come through time and time again with competitive products, I'm doubting Honda will fail.

The competition will enjoy one short and sweet year of wins, but then will loose for the next three to four.

Same thing goes for the Odyssey vs. the Sieanna, Corolla vs. the Civic...and Pilot vs. the Highlander. In comparison tests the Honda counterparts usually win (except with maybe the Trucks...Ridgeline is UGLY)

But you get my drift.

If Honda plays is cards right (and avoids the styling of the Civic) the Accord will be fine...and I work for a Nissan dealership....and I'll be the first to admit that...folks really will play on the "value" card then.

I can only imagine what Sonata's will be going for about that time...$13K for a Sonata Limited?

maxamillion1 · June 2006

if they can offer more horsepower and continue to IMPROVE gas mileage, I don't have a problem with it...but if it gets to a point where gas mileage suffers...THEN I'll worry about reducing the horsepower in favor of better gas mileage...

Toyota seems to have a good combo of both...I expect similar results from Honda next year.

Is the Fusion getting the 3.5 or not?

Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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