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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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Comments

  • choe13choe13 Member Posts: 348
    Saw the first mid cycle changed mazda 6 and finished work early so took it for a test drive.

    I have always admired the mazda 6, but this updated version is causing me big headaches into my new purchashing car plans this upcoming october.

    I have no idea what they really did to the exterior, but it looks a whole lot better , especially the front end. The nose job was a success and mazda has done a great job with the adding ground effects to give it a better sporty appeal.

    The interior has seemed like nothing much was changed, but it looks and feels alot better. The materials seem more darker, like its been smoked up or something.

    Anyways for the drive, i took the 4 banger(reluctant to buy the 6 since it is made by ford), and it was faster and smoother than the previous one. The salesman told me, that they totally revised the transmission, and the engine in his opinion went from about 90 percent efficiency to use along with the transmission, all the way to the 95 range(honda accord territory). I was very satisfied, and 0-60 felt it reached the late 7 seconds which is good enough for me.

    The ride was similiar to before and a little noiser than compared to say the camry and sonata(maybe their intetion for a sporty ride). The handling was as great as before( this car is the handling king for mid size cars, hands down).

    There was also an option to get the sports package and 18 inch rims(wow) for a 1500 which would raise the price up to 21.5 which is just about my budget

    So the two cars now on my list are

    2005 mazda 6 I4 (mid cycle(totally new version not until early 2008)
    -looks better than the first version. sporty, european
    -interior tweaks
    - smoother and more responsive engine(revs way better than the previous one)
    - best handling mid size car
    -a little noisy on the minus side

    2006 sonata gls v6
    - in my opinion the best looking mid size car for its price
    - quality buildmanship
    - very quiet(luxury feel), good engine
    - alot of equipment
    - great price , warranty
    - not a great handling car but still responsive(waiting for their suspension add on)

    if there are any mazda 6 owners , please do tell what you like or dislike about your cars. thanks
  • truethattruethat Member Posts: 123
    "So the U.S. government has price restrictions against the Japanese, but not against Koreans, huh?"

    Actually, that may happen. (more than likely if GM/Ford keep falling)
    Of course, this depends heavily on how well Hyundai/Kia performs and, perhaps
    more importantly, international politics between the US and South Korea.
    You can bet your money that the South Korean government is really anxious
    on this topic. Few years ago, Hyundai wasn't even considered a competition.
    Nowadays, almost any economy-section article that deals with Hyundai's growth
    says things like "Hyundai is taking customers away from the likes of GM."

    Having said that, Hyundai/Kia only takes up only about 3 percent of the US auto
    market.(even with all the recent successes) So, they really are not in the same
    category as the Japanese. Hence, they have lower risk of getting cut in all the
    embargo talks. (I know there are bunch of senators who would love to put Koreans
    on the possible embargo list, though.)

    You would be sadly mistaken if the recent announcement of price hikes in Toyota
    and Nissan models is just business decisions. GM/Ford/Chrysler have lots of
    political influences in Washington, and there have been signs that they are already
    pressuring politicians (especially in the Midwest) to take actions.

    The embargo is not even a new thing. The reason for Toyota/Honda/Nissan's
    decisions to build so many US plants (even though the low efficiency and
    productiveness) throughout the 80's and '90s (and even to this day) was to avoid
    the high tariffs and quotas imposed on them by US government (whose master-
    architect was Chrysler's Iacocca, remember him?)

    So, it's really not silly at all. ;)
  • truethattruethat Member Posts: 123
    I feel your pain, brother. :P
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    "You would be sadly mistaken if the recent announcement of price hikes in Toyota
    and Nissan models is just business decisions."

    I just plainly disagree with you. Toyota has always had those 2% price hikes with mid-year or new year models.

    As far as Nissan, the only car that they raised prices on recently is the M. That's because the car has been selling well above targets, and because it was priced very competitively to the competition to begin with.

    Toyota raising prices on its cars by 2% isn't going to help GM a smidgen. GM's troubles go far beyond that.

    Anyways, to get back on topic, I'm looking forward to the 2007 Camry. Hope it gets the 3.5 GR engine.
  • truethattruethat Member Posts: 123
    Disagree all you want. If you do your research (or ask any economist), you'd
    generally agree. I've never heard of a car company raising prices because they
    sell well? (less incentives, maybe... nobody raises MSRP without dire necessity)

    Anyways...
    When is 2007 camry coming out again?
    Since I'm putting off my decision, I might as well wait until the new camry comes
    out.
  • ctalkctalk Member Posts: 646
    The Japanese have been eating up the domestic sales for a long time.
    GM is not threatened by Hyundai, its threatened by Toyota, Honda and Nissan (mainly Toyota)

    Last year i visited my cousin in K.L and whoa are the prices of imports there sky high. They put import tax on all the imports there, the price of an Accord and Camry are equivalent to the price of a benz there.

    The employee discounts GM is having are not helping. GM lost 1.2 billion on auto sales last quarter, on sales of 1.3 mil vehicles. GM is losing money of each car.

    Hyundai is in a comfortable state, but the Japanese are not.

    But people are still going to buy Toyota, so this is going to actually help them.

    Jrock: I dont see why its silly...
  • ctalkctalk Member Posts: 646
    The new Camry may be coming out as early as March, i'm not really sure. All i know is its coming out earlier than usual.
  • truethattruethat Member Posts: 123
    I do agree that Hyundai is in a relatively comfortable state compared to the Japanese.
    But it is also true (at least it's the general consensus) that Hyundai has taken
    certain portion of the market from the likes of GM. All that rhetoric by Hyundai/Kia
    about becoming a global top 5 automaker by 2010 can't help the perception that
    the Koreans are hurting Detroit's big 3. Plus Korean government just doesn't have
    the kind of econo-political muscles as the Japanese.

    It's all about trade deficits and international politics and therefore very
    unpredictable.
  • truethattruethat Member Posts: 123
    I saw the spy pictures.
    Damn y'all... It looks a lot like the new Lexus IS...
    Are they putting in ESC and side curtain airbags?
    I hear 4-cylinders will have 180hp and V6 will be 250-60hp.
    That's quite an improvement I guess.
    Any prediction on MSRP?

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  • ctalkctalk Member Posts: 646
    It does look nice :)

    They are most likely going to put side curtain airbags standard (99.9%sure)
    ESC may be standard but most likely will be an option

    I am not sure about engine power. 250+hp for V6?

    Its probably going to be pretty expensive.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    I have done my research. In fact, a lot of research as I'm very interested in these things. I just don't agree with you two. I've seen a lot of marketing shpiel and message board rhetoric about it, but not a shred of evidence.

    I'm not disagreeing that the imports may face the threat of government restrictions. In fact, I followed the situation in the mid 90s when the U.S. threatened to impose 100% tariffs on Japanese luxury cars if Japan didn't lift its own restrictions on foreign imports.

    BUT, there is no evidence that Toyota, Honda, and Nissan are pricing its cars at less than optimal profit points for the purpose of keeping their market share artificially low in the U.S.

    1) I haven't seen this supposed big round of price increases on Japanese cars. Just the 1-3% increases that happen every year.

    2) Artificial price inflation by one manufacturer won't work. If Toyota does it, it'll just hurt them in market share and profits vis-a-vis Honda and Nissan.

    3) And if all 3 do it with the implicit understanding that the other two will, it's called price collusion. And that's against U.S. antitrust laws.

    So no, I don't buy this "The Japanese are at a disadvantage because they face pricing restrictions, while the Koreans can price their cars however they want."

    BTW, I apologize for using the word "silly".
  • truethattruethat Member Posts: 123
    That's what Edmunds and couple other sites are saying.
    Yeah, I think they're gonna close the gap between Camry and Avalon a little bit.
    I'm a little nervous about the earlier-than-planned debut, though. Possible kinks?

    BTW, I edited my post and put the pics up. I hope they're not too big.
    It does look nice, doesn't it? Damn... :shades:
  • truethattruethat Member Posts: 123
    Just quick response and I'll stop ping-ponging you. :P
    Well, I didn't mean to offend you by saying that "if you do your research..."
    That just didn't come out right.

    As you point out in #2, increasing prices WILL hurt the market share. That's the
    whole point, don't you think? Don't you think it's absolutely bizzare that Toyota
    picked this point in time to raise their prices (when all the American counterparts
    are drastically cutting prices? That just doesn't sound like someone who's red-
    eyed about market shares.)

    And according to my fact sheet, it's not price collusion if you're intentionally trying
    to "decrease" market share. It happens so rarely that there are very few
    precedants. Price collusion is very hard to prove anyways. GM/Ford/Chrysler are
    cutting prices almost simultanuously. That's more destructive to the traffic of
    market economy (and if the Japanese pull any stunts like that, they'd certainly get
    pounded by anti-dumping laws). Even if it is some kind of collusion, the US
    government won't impose anti-trust laws the Japanese companies when they want
    to slow down their sales. That just doesn't make any sense.

    I do agree that 2-3 percent price increase really doesn't do much and can be
    considered "normal." But looking at what Toyota people have been saying these
    days, I take it as a "gesture" to say "okay, we'll back down. you sell your cars.
    we don't want any trade troubles like in the '90s."

    I made my point. I'll shut up now :shades:
  • truethattruethat Member Posts: 123
    I'd be more interested in July sales figures. I don't think Ford and Chrysler were
    offering discounts in June.
    But, you're right. It's quite sad, really.
  • ctalkctalk Member Posts: 646
    "The 2006 Sonata is much better than the car it replaced, and its many standard safety features set an example other automakers will have to follow, but it lacks the character and refinement Hyundai needs to cross the gap that separates it from brands with longer -- and better -- traditions."

    http://www.freep.com/money/autoreviews/phelan21e_20050721.htm
  • ctalkctalk Member Posts: 646
    Sorry no can do, I cant access the area the poster in C&D got it from. Need to be a member.

    But it seems Toyota and Honda were still ahead.
  • truethattruethat Member Posts: 123
    I read this. I think I read everything there is to read about the new sonata by now.
    ;)
    I think it's your determination to prove your point about Hyundai not on the same
    level of Camcord that impresses me more than the article itself. :P
    I'm kinda sick of the character/refinement/public perception discussion.
    Your quote is probably true too. I just don't think that's gonna make so much
    difference for me, though. If it's a good machine and if I can get a good deal on it,
    I would prefer Hyundai. Maybe I'm too young to be worried about class and public
    perception... :P
  • ctalkctalk Member Posts: 646
    :P Actually i am a bit slow, i was looking through C&D forums and this caught my eye. So i decided to post it.

    Btw i support the Accord not the Camry :P

    Since you like the 07 Camry so much, i suggest you wait and see how it looks and what features it has.

    It is definetly going to be very powerful, roomier etc.
  • truethattruethat Member Posts: 123
    Huh? I don't think the July numbers are out yet. It's still July after all.
    Is that what you meant? or have I wandered off?

    And yeah, I think I'll wait. I'm not sure if i'll have the money, but I'm sure Sonata
    will be much better-tuned by then (at least, they'll come up with better deals :shades: )
  • ctalkctalk Member Posts: 646
    Woops, sorry i wasn't thinking when i said that :P

    We'll have to wait till August 1st to get the information.

    Who knows, you may have enough money for the model you like.
  • truethattruethat Member Posts: 123
    I know our lovely friend Mitsu has been dug in a hole recently.
    I've even heard rumors that Mitsu might pull out of the US.
    I tend to think that's strictly rumor, but what are they doing with galant line?
    I haven't heard anything about a new galant.
    The new eclipse seems to have a couple of recalls already, though.
  • ctalkctalk Member Posts: 646
    "The Japanese car maker may be next to go down. Deeply in debt, Mitsubishi needs 37% shareholder DaimlerChrysler to bail it out of a $6 billion-plus hole, but it appears DC won't do so, its shareholders having vociferously stated their negative options."

    http://cars.about.com/cs/automakers/a/mitsu_down.htm
  • truethattruethat Member Posts: 123
    Thanks for the article.
    I wonder if anyone would actually be interested in buying Mitsubishi.
    Obviously bigger companies don't need the baggage, but perhaps smaller ones
    might be interested in building a bigger presence in Japanese market?
    I fantasized about Hyundai taking over Mitsubishi (since they had long-time
    relationship once), but I guess that's just ridiculous. :P I hear that even the
    Japanese aren't buying Mitsubishis any more.

    So, no galant update, huh?
  • choe13choe13 Member Posts: 348
    To make it clear that is in no way the final camry coming to the US. actually many believe that is the new IS 300 . I also didn't think it would look that good.

    The new camry are the ones you see on the test track spy shots that look closer to the current car
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    You make some good points, but:

    "And according to my fact sheet, it's not price collusion if you're intentionally trying
    to "decrease" market share."

    Generally, any time you have an agreement, express or unspoken, by a group of competitors to artificially hold up or hold down prices, that is price collusion, no matter that your intent is to decrease market share.

    "Even if it is some kind of collusion, the US government won't impose anti-trust laws the Japanese companies when they want."

    The government won't necessarily be the one bringing suit. Anyone can. You or I can bring a suit against Toyota/Honda/Nissan for colluding to raise prices on our next vehicle. And federal judges must uphold the law as it is on the books. And hopefully, we have a judiciary system that is free from undue influence from the executive or the legislative body.

    You are right though, price collusion is hard to prove, but it can and has been done. The difference with the American situation is that GM isn't cutting prices with the implicit understanding that Ford definitely will cut prices as well, or vice versa.

    Alright, I'll shut up now too. :)

    -------------------------------

    Looking at those spyshots of the '07 Camry. It looks like it's going to have that "droop" of the inner corner of the headlights, similar to the Corolla and Avalon. That is a styling element I don't like, but I guess we'll have to wait to see for real.
  • ctalkctalk Member Posts: 646
    I dont know whats going to happen to Mitsubishi, they have a long list of recalls. They're sales are down, they need help from other companies.

    No Galant update, its seems to be not selling well anyways.

    About the 07 Camry. Toyota has been improving their designs starting with the new Avalon. They've been pretty sucessful with the Avalon, hopefully the NG Camry will turn out nice.
    I am pretty sure it will :)
  • ctalkctalk Member Posts: 646
    http://www.japanesecarfans.com/spyphotos.cfm/spyphotoid/6050720.001

    Have a look, if you notice the front of the car in the spyphoto looks like the ones you posted earlier. The back is hard to tell though. But notice in your spyphoto the rear lights have a slight angle, the spyphoto i have the lights also have a slight angle to them.

    You know what i noticed, it looks like the Toyota FTSX Concept. (well someone pointed that out on C&D forums :P)

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    I think the Camry is actually going to look like the spyphotos :)
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    front to disguise an new Toyota.

    Now for my question, Why do you think the Camry is going to look like the spy photos?

    All I can say, is the 2006 Sonata meets and maybe exceeds the current bar; but it looks like the bar is being raised.

    Actually, there are a lot of other car makers besides just Hyundai trying to garner Toyota and Honda market share.

    If a person could see into the future what would car demographics look like:

    (1) More features, better handling, more power, more economy
    (2) Low sulpher diesels, solar augment, CD of less than .20 and fallen resale on dead battery hybrids
    (3) European and German cars dominant in USA; fall of the myoptic big three, demise of auto unions as we know them today.
    (4) higher and higher fuel prices; $5 a gallon within five years.

    Crusi'n in 6th manual shift all the way,

    MidCow
  • ctalkctalk Member Posts: 646
    Why dont you think so?
    Notice the same grill, lights, badge placement (dont mind the H sign :P)

    I dont the Camcord have anything to worry about, i think its the domestics that have to worry about the new Sonata.
    But Ford has its new Fusion
    Chevrolet has its new Impala
    Too many new cars out there...
  • truethattruethat Member Posts: 123
    I think it's absolutely hilarious that someone painted(drew?) honda emblem on
    the new camry :P
    I agree the bar is being raised.
    I suspect that Hyundai will quickly move onto a remodelled version.
    You can always give some changes styling-wise. Perhaps for the '08 model?
    We'll wait and see, I guess.
  • kronogoosekronogoose Member Posts: 116
    I don't claim to have any "factual" information, but I was intrigued a couple of months ago by the Galant Ralliart concept. I'm not even sure how I stumbled across it, but I think it may have been at one of the recent car shows. I even filled out a survey at Mistu's website about the Ralliart...made me think they were seriously considering it.

    The Ralliart version would borrow some mechanicals (V6, transmission) from the new Eclipse and have various interior and exterior tweaks to make it look sportier.

    I guess if you like the looks of the current Galant, then you'll like the Ralliart. I'm definitely interested in vehicles like this one, where a company takes a midsize sedan and spices it up. I personally can't wait for the Mazdaspeed6.

    I hope Mitsu is around long enough to sell the Ralliart!
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    I think that currently, the Sonata has the best exterior, and the Accord has the best interior. We'll see how the '07 Camry turns out in both aspects.
  • truethattruethat Member Posts: 123
    The new camry will obviously be more expensive than the current MSRP.
    Why not go for Hyundai Azera?
    Camry XLE V6 currently starts at 25,805. You can probably buy an Azera
    (with lower trim level, of course) under 27,000, no?
    Am I crazy?

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  • truethattruethat Member Posts: 123
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    Is this what you meant?
    It does look a lot like the current Galant. I am not sure about the Mitsu's current
    designs, though... They look... loosely-fit (maybe I'm wrong)
    The orange color is quite nice, though... hard to pull off that kinda color.
  • truethattruethat Member Posts: 123
    I concur! (without ticking off anyone :P )
  • kronogoosekronogoose Member Posts: 116
    That's the one! The looks don't thrill me, but at least it doesn't look like a clone of the Camry or Accord.

    I haven't seen many of the current model Galants in my area, which makes me think that they haven't sold many. I hope Mitsu sticks around a while, at least they offer one more midsize option to choose from.
  • gxpgtodanmangxpgtodanman Member Posts: 210
    I think stability control is usefull , but only on SUV's or vehicles with higher centers of gravities to prevent flipovers. Otherwise a good driver in a lower centered car doesn't need it. If you go into a turn or bend way to fast, the laws of gravity come into effect, ESC is still not going to save you! Also the condition and type of tires you are running come into play. Also the car, some handle better then others!
  • ctalkctalk Member Posts: 646
    Stability control is very useful on cars. I dont think you understand how it works.

    "ESC is designed to help a driver in the relatively rare event of loss of control at high speed or on a slippery road. When a driver enters a curve too fast, for example, the vehicle may spin out of control. But with ESC, automatic braking is applied to help keep the vehicle under control."

    So basically it prevents fish-tailing and spinning.

    http://www.iihs.org/news_releases/2004/pr102804.htm
  • pwimseypwimsey Member Posts: 16
    Stability control is useful on cars and SUVs, but it's *more* useful on SUVs because the consequences of fish-tailing or understeering are, statistically, worse in an SUV because of the rollover danger. But if you lose control and spin into the other lane, or down a steep bank in a car, the consequences are still pretty dire.
  • truethattruethat Member Posts: 123
    I am pretty sure the photos are very very close to the final version (if not identical)
    It does look similar to 2006 Lexus IS, but they are in no way the same car.
    The test track spy shots look identical to the fuzzy projected image. (just more
    photogenic angle) I post one of the images again (you can clearly see the "camry"
    sign.)
    image
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Its not necessarily true that the new Camry will be much more expensive. In 2000, our Camry LE 4A had a sticker price of $21,480. Our 2002 Camry LE 4A identically equipped listed for $21,349. Today, a Camry LE 5A with side airbags and floormats in the Northeast is about $21,650.

    ~alpha
  • truethattruethat Member Posts: 123
    Month...........Total....AL-made...'05 model...1yr ago
    May(20-31).....422..........232
    June.............2,696.......1,135......5,864.......12,035
    July(1-27).....3,430.......2,045......2,611.........9,605(full month)

    *Full July sales of 2006 Sonatas are expected to reach 4,000.

    They still have 3,587 '05 Sonatas. I guess August should pretty much be last
    chances for people who want the 05 version.

    It seams to me that their sales got hit hard by all the discounts around.
    (Unless I'm wrong about last year's data.)
  • truethattruethat Member Posts: 123
    Really?
    I hope they don't raise prices too much.
    It's nice to have more options.
  • anonymouspostsanonymousposts Member Posts: 3,802
    from this generation and have had none of the problems you post about.
  • ctalkctalk Member Posts: 646
    It's a shame that you have experienced whatever problems with your 2005 Accord. But I can assure you that I have had absolutely no significant concerns with my 2005 Accord EX V6.

    In every car model there are always certain cars that turn out to be 'defective' But in general Honda has a reputation of making reliable cars. I am sorry about the experience you have gone through with Honda. If you're going to walk into a forum, and say such a bold statment "Don't buy Accord specially EX-V6" and back it up with your personal experience, I dont think people are going to accept that. You're making a simplistic assumption that this happens to all Accords.
  • fitguyfitguy Member Posts: 220
    My last Accord was a '03 EX Coupe; it was flawlessy reliable but not up to usual Honda standards in terms of body integrity (1 rattle, 1 sqeak, both hunted down and fixed by me). My '04 Mazda 6S has been just as reliable, no squeaks or rattles, and a lot more fun to drive. Honda's are still a very good car, but IMO not what they once were.
  • ctalkctalk Member Posts: 646
    New Impala has better value then Sonata :P
    It's in CDN
    32,855: Impala SS V8 303HP
    28,000: Sonata GLS V6 (like LX in US)
    33,600: Honda Accord EX V6

    Does that make it a benchmark?
  • truethattruethat Member Posts: 123
    I'd never buy an Impala.
    Your price is wrong. Full-option Sonata LX is about 25,000.
    Where are you coming with the numbers?
    Are they with taxes or something?
    I don't get what your point is... :confuse: benchmark?
  • ctalkctalk Member Posts: 646
    I said Canadian! not U.S.
    Go to the Canadian Hyundai site, the GLS premium is equal to the LX. Canada does not have the LX.

    A lot of people were saying that the Sonata is class-leading because it is equal to the Camcord at a cheaper price. So basically what i am saying is if the Sonata got praise for its price, the Impala should.

    I read this Toronto Star article about the new Impala,
    http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Art- icle&cid=1122587411393&call_pageid=968867497088&col=969048871196&DPL=IvsNDS%2f7ChAX&tacoda- login=yes

    But, i dont think being simply less-expensive is class-leading.
  • ykangykang Member Posts: 88
    First of all, I apologize to the members of this forum that I used inappropriate words. But ,ctalk, don't try to generalize this problem like every car model has defective ones. If you type "transmission noise" or "rattles", you will see hundreds of complaints on this forum. Honda already has two recalls for 2005 model. Do you think I'm just out of luck. Honda is no longer a reliable car maker.
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