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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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Comments

  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,722
    One reason Hyundai changed the trim levels on the 2007 Sonata is I think to align them with their other 2007 vehicles. For example:

    Accent: GS (base hatch), GLS, SE
    Azera: SE, Limited
    Elantra: GLS, SE, Limited
    Santa Fe: GLS, SE, Limited
    Entourage: GLS, SE, Limited
    Sonata: GLS, SE, Limited

    So there is logic behind the change. While there is short-term pain, in the long run there will be more consistency across Hyundai's lineup.
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    "Accent: GS (base hatch), GLS, SE
    Azera: SE, Limited
    Elantra: GLS, SE, Limited
    Santa Fe: GLS, SE, Limited
    Entourage: GLS, SE, Limited
    Sonata: GLS, SE, Limited"

    I like that. Just easier for the consumer to compare what's what. All brands should institute a similarly consistant trim designation for all their cars.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe leather is standard on all Limited models, including the 2007 Elantra?
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,722
    I don't recall, but that would be nice and consistent, wouldn't it: L(imited) is for Leather. :)
  • mfletou1mfletou1 Posts: 508
    Well, I'm talking more about the cabin feel and the controls (the way the cockpit is laid out), etc, which isn't specific to a particular trim level. The Camry has a more efficient, spacious feel to it. I noticed it most when I went back to the Accord from the Camry...the Accord suddenly felt kind of cramped.

    Of course, outside style is totally subjective, but in my subjective opinion, the new Camry is significantly fresher looking than the other midsize sedans. I've been driving it since Tuesday morning and its gotten quite a bit of attention--of course, part of that is probably the Barcelona Red paint. I like the Accord styling, but it looks dated next to a Camry. The Sonata to me is sort of a hodge podge--kind of pudgy, nice features like the lamps but not as aggressive looking.

    But that's just my opinion. The automotive journalists seem to agree, for whatever that's worth.

    The thing I wanted to point out is that I think its way overstating the case to say that the new Camry has had reliability problems. There were some production problems with a couple HUNDRED V6 Camry's. We are talking about one of the highest volume cars in America. I'm not aware of anything else significant that is popping up.
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    I guess we'll just have to disagree on the interior. I feel that the the Camry interior, while certainly nice, isn't any better in feel or ergonomics than the Accord interior.

    For what it's worth, the new August issue of Consumer Reports came out, and they rated the Accord EX V6 (89 points) higher than the Camry XLE V6 (87 points).

    -----------------------

    There seem to be two issues with the V6 Camry transmission:

    1) Snap ring defect: Toyota recently said that the original estimate of 160 is an underestimate, and did not provide another specific figure.

    2) RPM spike issue: Toyota has not publicly acknowledged that this is a problem. We do not know how many cars are/will be affected.

    I'm sure that the problematic vehicles are a minority, but I just wouldn't be comfortable with getting a V6 Camry right now until these issues get resolved.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    All the engine immobilizer vehicles have these expensive systems now. The Corolla's is $275-300 per key. In some of the new ones the fob and key are combined, new Camry, RAV, Lexus', etc.

    DO NOT lose both master keys!!!!!
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    HUNDREDS for KEYS....
    I think I would just avoid the cars. Ridiculous. $1 for a key was plenty. I have one now with an immobilizer chip, and I think it is like $30 key. Could be wrong. Anything over a $1 is high, and over $100 something I don't care to pay for and will avoid that car. What else on the car is overpriced? Techno cars and not so friendly to the wallet. My 98 Corolla took a $1 key. It was a great car for the seven years owned. Roll up windows, and manual door locks. No failures at all, and you did not need a key to roll down the windows. Passengers appreciate that roll down windows when they left in the car while you go shopping.

    Now let's see, to buy three Camry keys for $400 each is $1,200. I bought a used Mustang 289V8 back around 1970 for about $1,100. Now the same money buys three keys. Well I guess you can still buy a ride for $1,100, but it would be the economy riding mower, and you look a bit silly taking it downtown.
    -Loren
  • autoboy16autoboy16 Posts: 992
    This post is for every1 who compares the 2006 accord Lx 4cyl to something.

    Compare the accord Lx se. It offers options going into the Ex pricing area for a little more than the price of a standard Lx

    Example: Whoever compared the camry LE to an accord Lx, use the accord Lx Se as it fits better. I personally would compare the camry le to the accord Ex w/o leather for the standard moonroof among other things.

    Thanks!!
    cj :)

    ps
    Its been image
    in this forum
  • tinatinatinatina Posts: 388
    I can't believe that the 4 year old Accord beat the new Camry, which is at "least one generation ahead of the competition," according to wisdom of CR. This must have been the mother of all rematches from the Edmunds test in which the Camry barely edged the Accord.

    Anyway, I will read that article once I have my mits on it. Thanks, for the info. I want to see a test of the 4 bangers.

    Autoboy16, I would not automaticaly compare the Accord SE to the Camry LE. The Camry LE and the LX Accord are the ones to compare IMO. However, if the Camry LE has alloy wheels and a c/d changer, then you may want to compare it to the Accord SE. The early 2006 Accord brochure referred to the SE as the "LX-SE". Anyway, just my thoughts.
  • autoboy16autoboy16 Posts: 992
    Accord Se stands for special edition so IMO is valid. Its sort of similar to honda calling DX VP for 2006
  • lightfootfllightfootfl Posts: 442
    Weelllll, hmmmm guess that makes sense like that, too bad they didn't plan ahead.. Oh well..
    Thanks, van
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    It wasn't really a comparo per se. They were simply tested and given points based on various factors.

    The Accord EX V6 got 89 points.
    The Camry XLE V6 got 87 points.
    For reference, CR's highest rated sedan is the Infiniti M35, at 97 points.

    FYI,

    The Camry V6 was tested at 7.1s, 0-60.
    The Accord V6 was tested at 7.3s, 0-60.

    This difference is a bit smaller that what we've been seeing elsewhere (i.e. Edmunds test).
  • supergoopsupergoop Posts: 46
    Road&Track Magazine tested the 07 Camry SE V6 6.1s 0-60.

    image
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    Right. The mags always get faster numbers than Consumer Reports. The Accord is faster (than the CR time) in magazine testing as well.

    To my knowledge, the car magazines torque brake in their tests, something that the average driver will never do. CR just stomps on the gas and goes.
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    Just trying to visualize a couple of soccer moms stopped at the red light. They look a each other, a wave of the hand, a flash of the lights on their cars -- they wanna race! Accord in one lane and a Camry in the other, things are about to heat up! Wheels spinning, then wheels spinning and tire smoke passing up over the hood, as if there is a fire up front, then finally off they go racing down the street with reckless abandon in their chariots. Do we know the winner? Possibly the one with the fastest reaction time, no doubt, as they both have nearly the same race engines. Race likely won buy the lady with the extra Starbucks cup of java in her. Who ever said you need a Roadrunner, GTO or Malibu SS to have fun? Got V6? :P
    -Loren
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Posts: 1,598
    Don't forget they'd be on a hand-held cell phone at the same time.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,722
    Now if they were in an Altima, they might be screaming "Yes... Yes!!... YES!!!!" as they manipulate the stick shift, ala the ads for the Versa in Australia that star Kim Catrall.

    I suppose doing that while holding a cell phone would be pretty dangerous, though.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Re: Engine immobilizer keys

    I'm not certain of this but I think it's a concession to the Insurance Industry. Without a 'recognized' key the vehicle can't be stolen unless a hook is put underneath it. I believe that certain insurance companies are offering discounts for this system since it is so good in avoiding theft.

    If however you lose/damage/destroy your two master keys then you can be liable for an entire new set and CPU and programming of all of the above. It could amount to as much as $2000.

    DO NOT lose the two master keys!!! But the Insurance companies love them.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,699
    my wife lost a set of the keys to her '96 taurus. a new key plus the programming cost about $125. it was a big chip key.
    it is probably worth it to get a spare key made when you buy a car new.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Posts: 1,598
    It's not a concession to the insurance industry. Insurance companies apply a discount on the cost of "other than collision" coverage for vehicles equipped with anti-theft devices. Vehicles with passive disabling devices typically get more of a discount than those equipped only with alarms.

    My '91 Chrysler had passive disabling. Just use the power lock button to lock the car (remote wasn't available on that car until '92) and the system was engaged. This also happened if the power were cut (cut wires, dead battery, etc.). I had a dead battery two years ago & the garage guy came to my house to get the car started. We had to go through several steps to get the car to start, even though he was supplying plenty of juice to crank the engine.

    The power door lock with passive disabling device cost $125 back in '91. Even adjusted for inflation, I think that's better than $200 to $400 for a key or $2K for a whole system.

    The insurance companies/industry really don't love or hate the security systems. They have a base rate for a make & model and then discount that rate for security systems. There's no +/- on the balance sheet to the insurance companies for the security systems. If a statistical difference is noted in the loss experience between "no security" and "yes security" compared to a company's rate structure, the discount for security systems will change (more discount or less discount depending upon the experience).

    It is the public who should love security systems because they lower their insurance costs. However, at a couple hundred bucks per key, the insurance savings is wiped out for several years by one key.

    My preference is for the immobilizer to be separate from the special key, as in a power lock feature (remote or otherwise).
  • mfletou1mfletou1 Posts: 508
    Do people really lose their car keys that easily?

    Knock on wood, I've never lost a car key. I've never not known where it is; I keep my car keys with my office and house keys and I have them at all times.

    There is a mechanical key on one of the key fobs, btw. It will open the car, and of course you don't need a key to start it.

    What exactly did Consumer test in the August issue? Did they re-test the Accord? Their numerical ratings are a snapshot in time...if they test a car in 1997 and give it a 91, it doesn't mean that in 2007 that same car with the 91 from 1997 is better than a car that gets in 89 10 years later.

    The new Camry V6 is faster than the Accord V6. The Accord 4 cyl is faster than the Camry V6. And my Hybrid Camry is right in the middle--about where Sonata and American V6's are.
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    "What exactly did Consumer test in the August issue? Did they re-test the Accord? Their numerical ratings are a snapshot in time...if they test a car in 1997 and give it a 91, it doesn't mean that in 2007 that same car with the 91 from 1997 is better than a car that gets in 89 10 years later."

    They retested the Accord.

    "The new Camry V6 is faster than the Accord V6. The Accord 4 cyl is faster than the Camry V6. And my Hybrid Camry is right in the middle--about where Sonata and American V6's are."

    The Sonata V6 is equally as fast as the Accord V6.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,722
    CR only rates current car models. So they wouldn't compare a '97 model to a '07 model--unless that '97 model is being sold as the same design now. Unlikely.

    You didn't really mean to say the Accord I4 is faster than the Camry V6, did you?

    Can the Camry Hybrid go 0-60 in 6.6 seconds? That's how quick the Sonata V6 is, as tested by C/D. Don't know about the American V6s, but I remember reading a test of a G6 with a beefy V6 and it was pretty quick.

    I've never lost a car key either. My wife has, though--the entire keychain including the remote. More than once. They are probably the same place as all the missing socks. ;)
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    "It's now been about 6 years since Hyundai introduced their 5 year/60,000 mile bumper-to-bumper and 10 year/100,000 mile powertrain warranty. Warranty costs are now half of what they were in 2003, and a lot lower than Hyundai's internal projections. In other words, it seems that Hyundai has improved build quality beyond their own expectations."

    Halving warranty costs in three years? They got to be pleased with that. Hopefully the relatively new Sonata will continue this trend.
  • mfletou1mfletou1 Posts: 508
    Yes, I meant to say the Accord I4 is faster than the Camry I4...

    I'll have to take a look at the current CR...

    Wow, C&D really got a rocket Sonata...I remember seeing an Edmunds 0-60 time in the low 8 seconds. Edmunds always seems to run cars slower to 60, I remember reading something like this, which I turned up in a quick syndicated review..."Hyundai officials say the V6 will turn 0-60 miles per hour times of about 7.5 seconds, ..."

    The 3.9 G6 (and Aura) are as quick as the Accord V6, but the standard 3.5L V6's in those cars and the Malibu are not. My other car is a Malibu Maxx, I have no doubt the Camry Hybrid would beat it in a track race.

    Anyway, point being that the Camry Hybrid performance is equal to a lower-tech V6, and better than a normal 4 cyl. The C&D test times for the Camry Hybrid (7.7 sec) and the Ford Fusion (7.4) are fairly equal--same for the last generation Camry V6 (7.6). And, of course, gas mileage is not even close, and right now, the tax credit eats up the cost of the hybrid. As for the V6's, there is no question that the Camry V6 is faster than its competition.

    Perusing this particular forum, which I have never really done, is opening my eyes to the, shall we say, voracity of feelings that Sonata owners apparently have. I shall have to watch myself or fear the wrath!

    I did look at the Sonata briefly, when I was looking at V6 sedans. It was very impressive for the money. I was more impressed with the Accord V6 at the time so I didn't really pursue it. Then, I discovered that I needed a hybrid for HOV access, so that was that.
  • scape2scape2 Posts: 4,119
    "And also, unlike American cars, Camry and Accord both are extremely reliable. therefore, they have a higher resale value.

    This is the reason they sale a lot in America.
    I own a 2003 Camry. I won't say it is fun to drive but it is trouble free

    Camry trouble free?? better get caught up on the latest..
    Also, the reliability issue was dead about 5 years ago....
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,201
    >"And also, unlike American cars, Camry and Accord both are extremely reliable. therefore, they have a higher resale value.


    I passed on reacting to that the first time I read it, but the reliability concept is gone. All cars are made about as well as others. You may find dealers slipping in better service or doing what should be recalls as repair-it-when-in-the-shop-for-other-thiings so the customer never knows there was a repair.

    A friend just bought a Corolla out of stereotype. We'll see how long the honeymoon lasts compared to other cars she could have bought. She never has owned up to how much the dealer packed the price for the privilege of letting her buy a prized Corolla... grin.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,722
    I shall have to watch myself or fear the wrath!

    Hopefully you don't have to "fear the wrath" from proponents of any particular car or brand. But it helps to have an open attitude, and not feel "attacked" if someone disagrees with you or posts data that contrasts with something you said, in a civil manner.

    I think the Camry hybrid is a great choice for someone needing a mid-sized sedan with the power of a V6 (some V6s anyway). I prefer the hybrids such as the Prius (technically a mid-sized car also) that optimize fuel economy even at the expense of performance, but I can appreciate the Camry for what it offers.
  • scape2scape2 Posts: 4,119
    These tests can vary across the board. I guess its who or what you want to believe. All in all these are supposed to be familty sedans, not performance vehicles. And are all within tenths of a second anyway. Can you count to a tenth of a second? As someone posted and gave me a chuckle. I can see two soccer moms lined up at a red light in family sedans waiting for the light to turn green.. How much HP is enough here folks? really? Someone give a number.. 250? 300, 500? 1000??? Time to demand more the industry like AWD, Nav, MP3, stability control, rear camera, back up sensors, collision alarms, ect...as standard equipment!
  • mfletou1mfletou1 Posts: 508
    That's true, in the real world, a few tenths of a second is not going to make a heck of a lot of difference.

    The reliabilty issue is a thorny one. I've owned nothing but American cars all my life...my wife and I even have GM cards that we've been accruing on.

    But you know what? For right now anyway, I'm done. Our cars have all been well engineered and trouble free for the first year or two, and then everything starts falling apart. I love our Malibu Maxx for instance, but the interior is not holding up well, pieces of plastic are falling apart, its on its third set or rotors (in 20,000 miles) and they have been resurfaced 4 times. In stop and go traffic, they constantly warp. Its all been warranty repairs, but...

    My '02 Intrigue I just traded had $3400 worth of warranty work done in the last 6 months. My wife's previous car, an Alero was just out of warranty and lost its power steering system. Even at 20k miles, (and 3 years, 3 months), GM wouldn't fix it and it cost us well over $2000 out of pocket.

    Did I have bad luck? Probably. Do some people have good luck? Sure. But the durability for plastic, for instance, doesn't change.

    So, I'm going to try a Toyota now and see the difference. A comparable equipped Impala would have cost me $2k less, but I'm going to make some of that up in fuel economy and tax credits. The 3.5L Impala is no faster than the Camry Hybrid, either.
This discussion has been closed.