Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

luvmbooty · July 2006

Let's look at dollars and cents for a moment. I priced the Sonata GLS V6 with no options added and the TMV came out to $17,633. The Sonata LX with the sunroof & audio package and Powder White Pearl Paint which made the TMV come out to $20,976. These two figures have the $2,500 incentive factored in.

I also priced the Accord LX V6 which there are no options available. The TMV came to $23,181.

How many family size sedans with a V6 engine can you get for under $20,000? I think the only others would be Chevy Malibu, Ford Fusion, and Pontiac G6, all American cars! I think I could live with the imperfections of the Sonata over the Accord LX and save OOHHH... $5,548 just to say to my friends I have a HONDA, too. Then disappear into mediocraty since evrybody and their mother has one! BORING!

mfletou1 · July 2006

$23 is closer to the transaction price of an Accord EX V6 than it is to an LX. I don't care what TMV says.

I'm sure the Sonata is still $2k or so cheaper. Its also going to hold at least that much value, probably more.

Its up to consumers to make the choice. I've made the decision to go with the cheaper car and saved the money the last few times I've bought a car. I firmly believe you get what you pay for. I like our Malibu Maxx, for instance, but its not even close to the Camry I just bought. However, I paid $16,900 for it. A comparable Camry would have gone for considerably more. But, a comparable Camry also would be worth more right now, and more importantly to me, is less likely to have cost me 7 trips to the dealership for the same damn problem. In 2 years.

One thing that does gall me here though--a Hyundai Sonata owner calling the Accord or Camry boring. Give me a break. Save it. The driver dynamics on either of those cars, especially the Accord, are not boring when compared to a Sonata. Sure, there are more of them on the road, although I live next to a major international airport and therefore I see more Sonatas on the road than I do Accords and Camry's, and they all are rental cars. So to me, where I live, the Sonata is hardly unique either.

As I've said, I think its a fine car, but its no more exciting than the others and if anything, its probably less. Its an outstanding value. It doesn't need to be propped out with put downs to other cars in its class. I still think the Camry and Accord are higher quality vehicles in terms of interior materials, design, and driving dynamics. Whether they are worth the extra money is a personal decision for the consumer.

thegraduate · July 2006

I still think the Camry and Accord are higher quality vehicles in terms of interior materials, design, and driving dynamics. Whether they are worth the extra money is a personal decision for the consumer.

Thank you...A lot of people don't (or refuse to try to)understand this point of view; while 95% of a car can be had at 80% of the price, some people are still willing to pay more for that little extra 5% bit of quality in a car. It doesn't make either wrong, just different.

Others feel they are getting 100% quality for 80%, and to them I say congratulations. My senses won't let me feel that way, and it was worth giving up a V6 engine to get that 100% quality feel. Others feel differently, and that's why a car like Sonata is better suited to them!

alpha01 · July 2006

Well stated.

~alpha

jrock65 · July 2006

Right. Any time you pay a premium, you pay exactly that... a premium. An amount that is above and beyond the increase in the value of a product.

For example, is an M35 or a GS300 ($48,000) twice a better car as the Accord EX-V6 ($24,000)? Most would say no, but many are still willing to pay a hefty premium for the "extras" that those cars bring.

bobad · July 2006

I totally agree, and I think everyone should read your post and think about it. I respect anyone that considers all choices and makes an informed decision, no matter what they buy. Kool Aid drinkers don't think at all. They just buy what the others buy, and bash everything else. Some day they will probably be sorry. I wish them well.

bobad · July 2006

Others feel they are getting 100% quality for 80%, and to them I say congratulations. My senses won't let me feel that way, and it was worth giving up a V6 engine to get that 100% quality feel.

I feel like I got 98% of the quality for 80% of the price, AND I got a V6, AND the best warranty in the industry to boot.

luvmbooty · July 2006

You paid $16,900 for the Camry or the Maxx? What years are they? What trims and options included? Wane you mentioned 7 trips. are you referring to the Maxx? What was the problem? I was considering the Maxx that's why I'm asking.

Personally, I think a car is to get from point A to B with little or no hassle. I believe that the Camry (2007 not the 2006, though I heard the 2007 is having trany problems) and the Accord has the better interior materials. I wasn't implying the Sonata was a better car. My point was I like the money I'm saving. I don't care about how a car holds its value. I feel the Camry or the Accord isn't worth the extra money. Do I really NEED to spend more for a little extra comfort? I don't spend all day in a car.

As for dynamics, Consumer Reports tested 0-60mph. The Honda Accord EX V6 made it in 7.4 seconds, Sonata GLS V6 in 7.5.

Braking from 60mph, the Accord stopped at 145 ft. on dry pavement, Sonata at 132 ft. Wet pavement Accord at 149 ft., Sonata at 138 ft.

CR's Avoidance Maneuver tests maximum speed for Accord was 51.5, the Sonata was 55.5.

Turning circle for Accord is 39 ft., Sonata 39 ft.

CR's Fuel economy test rated Accord 15 mpg city and 34 mpg highway. Sonata was rated 14 mpg city and 30 highway.

Consumer Report's recommends the Accord as the Best all around Family Sedan.

Even Edmunds tested 2006 Camry, Accord, and Sonata. Out of the 3, Sonata came out on top, because of the value. The test cars were all equally priced.

What I'm trying to say here is, I think the Sonata is a great car for the money.

kdhspyder · July 2006

The numbers of people moving into midsize and near-midsize vehicles is huge - but understandable. The price of gas is making all of these vehicles very attractive to buyers coming out of trucks and SUV's as well as the normal number of 're-ups' in the midsize segment.

YTD sales
Camry +0.9%
Corolla +13%
Accord +1.1%
Civic +17%
Altima -5.0%
Cobalt +16%
Impala +17%
Mal/G6 +5%
F/M/Z undefined
Focus
Sonata +65%

backy · July 2006

The figures show that a lot of people are moving to gas-saving compacts like the Civic, Cobalt, and Corolla and also to mid-sized sedans that are NOT the Accord, Altima, and Camry. Impala is way up, Malibu and G6 are up (too bad numbers are merged, they are different cars), about 20k buyers are turning to the Fusion/Milan/Zephyr each month (not available a year ago), and Sonata is up 65% from last year. Meanwhile, Camry and Accord sales are treading water (although they were already strong) yet the Accord has a refresh for '06 and the Camry is all-new. Could it be that mid-sized buyers are turning to lower-priced alternatives?

thegraduate · July 2006

I feel like I got 98% of the quality for 80% of the price, AND I got a V6, AND the best warranty in the industry to boot.

Right...I think you are getting my point (you usually do though

). Value is not completely objective, because we all place different "value" on different things. I prefer the tightest interior, and was willing to give up things like a V-6 engine (I could've had a Sonata V-6 for the price of my top of the line Accord I-4) in order to get it. That's probably absurd to some, but not to me, because I didn't feel I needed more power than I got, plus the economy is a bonus. People value different things...it's personal choice, and we all get to have them, so there's no point in anyone being upset at anyone else's choice!

mfletou1 · July 2006

First of all, in terms of Camry sales, that's a bit deceptive because the new model came out about halfway through the quarter, and even now in many places dealers do not have much inventory. There's still not much "play" on them price wise, and there are still consumers out there willing to pay more than invoice to buy them. Accords, meanwhile, are seeing pretty heavy discounts to keep them moving.

Luv, my Maxx is a 2004 LS 1SB, which is basically equivalent to today's LT. MSRP was $23100, I paid $16900 for it. There was a significant rebate. There have been two problems. The major one is brakes. The Maxx does not have ventilated rotors which it turns out is a huge oversight because our vehicle is experiencing near-constart warping of the rotors. What happens is that in heavy traffic (which is practically the ONLY kind of traffic in Metro DC!), the brakes end up getting hot, and then in a way melting when they cool. They wear unevenly and cause a heavy vibration and reduced stopping distance. When they are resurfaced, the problem comes back within 1,000 miles or so. The dealer has actually replaced the rotors under warranty, but the same thing happened with the new ones. I just had them resurfaced again (under warranty) last week, this time at a different dealership. We are no longer driving the Maxx as often or as hard, so hopefully we'll be able to go longer without warping.

The other problem, so to speak, is far less important--its just that we don't feel the interior has held up all that well. We've had three different dash/console pieces fall off. All but one has been fixed (just haven't gotten aroudn to the other one), so it not like a huge problem, but it does speak to the quality of materials used.

To give you a fair balance, though, I would still recommend this car to a knowledgeable consumer looking for a value. The versatility is astounding. I can't get over what we can fit in that thing. If you've looked at it, you know about the cavernous rear sit that adjusts, the way everything folds down, etc. Perhaps interior quality has improved some since 2004. The powertrain and transmission have been fine. I'm not thrilled with the electric steering, but it has been trouble free and you do get used to it. With side airbags, which ours has, it gets good crash test ratings, insurance premiums are very low.

My Camry is a 2007 Hybrid with an MSRP of $27500. I paid $26600. There is also a tax credit of $2600 on that vehicle, so I consider my actual purchase price to be $24000. My motivation frankly was to gain access to the HOV lanes in VA. Considering the level of equipment though(bluetooth, 440 watt sound system with 6 disc change and direct IPod plug in, a very sophisticated stability control system (VDIM, not just the standard Toyota system) on my car a sunroof), I think its actually a good deal. So far, I'm driving it exactly like I drove my previous car, an Oldsmobile Intrigue (aggressively), and getting 34 mpg. My Intrigue got about 21 mpg on the same route, the Maxx gets about 23.

I will just point out to you that while you pay less, your car is also worth less when you trade in. Now whenever I buy a new car, I say that I'm going to keep it a long time so it doesn't matter. I usually end up betraying myself eventually and so do most people--even if they don't intend to (circumstances change, more/less kids, whatever).

I wouldn't go by CR's performance numbers, I prefer C/D, RT and MT, personally. I think they've clocked the Accord a little faster than Sonata, and I know they've clocked Camry V6 faster than both of them. Not especially important in the real world. When I speak of driving dynamics, I didn't just mean the raw numbers but how the car feels, handles and performs getting there. The Accord is still very impressive in this area--I think the interior design lags behind the Camry and for me, a tall guy with long legs, it wasn't as comfortable. I ended up feeling like the new Camry significantly improved handling characteristics to the point where it was in the same ballpark as an Accord (as opposed to a Buick Regal), and the Camry Hybrid engine was powerful and quick enough to make me choose it over the Accord Hybrid. (Obviously not as quick as Accord, but better economy by far).

If you were to choose to pocket some cash upfront and buy a Sonata, I would never tell you were making a bad decision. I'd say you were getting a lot of car for the money. I also would argue with you, however, if you were to suggest that the Sonata is objectively a better car than either Accord or Camry.

kdhspyder · July 2006

As has been noted here several times previously the past yrs Camry figures held about 11-14% fleet sales while sales for this year are very likely nearly all retail due to the new model. Thus there are a significant number of new retail buyers going toward the Camry.

The Impala shocked me as well. ( Fleet or retail? )

The Accord despite it's age ( see Altima ) is doing very well with reportedly low fleet sales.

The F/M/Z situation is interesting since the Taurus will reportedly be finished within a few months. Wonder where these sales will go?

The Sonata is doing very well albeit coming from a relatively low base.

backy · July 2006

So the 2007 Camrys I saw at Hertz in Austin, TX a couple of weeks ago were figments of my imagination?

If Ford don't open up the Fulan to fleet sales, I can see GM, Hyundai, and Kia benefitting a lot from the Taurus/Sable's demise.

kdhspyder · July 2006

while sales for this year are very likely nearly all retail due to the new model

We have an '07 Camry or two in our rental office but that's down from 6-10 units in the past.

mfletou1 · July 2006

There are some rental Camry's, all 4 cyls...but not that many.

I live next door to people who only are in town once or twice every 2-3 weeks. They own a place there but don't have a car and rent from the same agency. I always note with interest what they end up with.

Their last group of rental cars were: Chevrolet Uplander, Malibu, Malibu Maxx (twice), Impala, Ford Fusion (twice), Mercury Milan (twice), Hyundai Sonata (twice).

I'm not positive what agency they go with and that mix makes it tough to tell. I would imagine they have seniority at whatever agency it is and therefore get among the better cars available in their class.

maxamillion1 · July 2006

Altima's age has had an affect with sales being down, but the major recall on I4 Altimas and Sentra SE-Rs did have a major affect on sales this month.

We still have a boatload of Altima's sitting at the back of our lot that cannot be sold becaue of the recall.

Considering that the recall was so major for some automakers, I'm surprised the sales weren't lower.

driverdm · July 2006

BE AWARE:

What may be going on in the numbers is simply the "Rule of Small Numbers". What that means is basically quite simple. Smaller numbes show a larger growth percentage with smaller increases. Examples show this best.

Let's say you sell 400,000 units and improve 3%, now you are at 412,000. 12,000 unis more. Now let us say that you were at 65,000 units and improve to 75,000, only 10,000 units more but a 15% improvment percentage wise. When you are talking large numbers, a lower percent is harder to achieve. I don't know what Camry sales were last year vs this year YTD but it is something to consider when looking at the numbers even the fact that the Camcord sell in relatively large numbers compared to its competition.

bhmr59 · July 2006

You are correct. Per centages are often used in a misleading fashion (intentional or unintentional). Many people do not understand per centages.

One of my favorites is: if you make $50 profit on day one and then make $100 profit on day two, your profit has increased 100%. If you make $50 profit on day three, your profit has decreased 50%.

You should be able to check Camry sales this YTD vs last YTD at www.theautochannel.com Then click on "Toyota" in the right hand column.

ace35 · July 2006

Can anyone explain to me why nissan seems to be pushing the new altima right into maxima territory. I understand with the release of the new camry, nissan wants to remain competitive with the class leader, however, it seems like the altima and maxima will have the similar feature content,same V6 engines and transmissions, While only looking slightly different. You even get cool turn signal mirrors on the altima and not on the max. I for one just dont understand nissans strategy, i can clearly see the altima canobilizing the Max's sales easily. Maybe someone else can shed some light on this for me.

bobad · July 2006

I for one just dont understand nissans strategy, i can clearly see the altima canobilizing the Max's sales easily. Maybe someone else can shed some light on this for me.

Isn't the Maxima a larger car than the Altima? If so, the 2 can never be compared.

m1miata · July 2006

If was the head of Nissan, I would forsee the end of the Maxima as it is today. Perhaps they have a RWD version, with a whole new body in the works for 2008? Or is that the G35? As the Altima upscales, the need for Maxima, may be Minimal ! Now a less expensive G35, in the skin of a Max would be cool. Say one starting around $27K, with RWD, and the fine V6 they have.
-Loren

goodegg · July 2006

The Maxima has never really fit into a defined market segment. I checked one out last fall when the 06s came out, but the price tag on it was pushing the TL's price-range - and that was with a cloth interior and not mucho bells & whistles.

The Maxima may be on its way out as is, so a RWD 6er from Nissan would definitely be sweet. Keep it under $30K and it would sell better than the Maxima.

backy · July 2006

Before the Altima grew into such a big and powerful car with the current generation, I think the market segment for the Maxima was better defined.

elroy5 · July 2006

Sonata is up 65% from last year. Meanwhile, Camry and Accord sales are treading water (although they were already strong) yet the Accord has a refresh for '06 and the Camry is all-new. Could it be that mid-sized buyers are turning to lower-priced alternatives?

These numbers (percentages) are very misleading. (and just the kind of thing a Sonata owner will quickly jump on). A 65% increase for the Sonata is easy to obtain. When you consider they sold next to nothing last year. The Sonata wishes it could tread water (as you put it) at the level of the Accord, and Camry.

And I am not bashing the Sonata. It was a major improvement (in sales), from last year. I just don't like it, when some of you say people who buy an Accord or Camry are wasting money, and the Sonata is the only smart choice, because that's far from true.

bobad · July 2006

the Sonata is the only smart choice...

Maybe my memory is not so great, but I can't recall ANYONE actually having said that. Can you refresh my memory with a post number?

I would guess the Sonata owners are all willing to say that your car is a wonderful car, and you made a great choice for yourself. We are happy for you! Instead of listening, you get these wild ideas in your head that we think the Sonata is superior to your car. I don't think anyone is saying that.

I think the Sonata's greatest strength's are that it has no major weaknesses, a surprising amount of refinement, the best warranty in the industry, and a refined V6 engine... for $16500 +TT&L. A lot of people find that combination remarkable and pleasing. Others are suspicious, saying "where's the catch?" Well, I'm here to tell you, there is no catch so far.

As for the 65% sales jump, I agree with you. The jump is not significant except as an indication Hyundai is on the right track. A couple of more years of those 65% jumps, however, and Hyundai has captured a significant share of the market. :surprise:

backy · July 2006

Even if a car sold "only" 100,000 units in a year, a 65% increase would mean 65,000 additional sales. A 1% increase on top of 400,000 sales means an additional 4,000 units sold. Are you saying an increase in 65,000 units sold is easier to do than an increase of about 4,000? I have to disagree with you on that one. There's a reason (probably multiple) why tens of thousands of more people are buying non-Camcordmas this year than last year. The competition in this segment is heating up!

Once the Sonata reaches 400,000 units sold a year, maybe Hyundai will be glad to "tread water" at that level. Maybe not. Good story in the August R&T about the race between companies from Japan and the Republic of Korea in building the Petronas Towers in Kuala Lumpur. Worth a read. It helps explain why Hyundai may not be satisfied to tread water when they reach 400,000 annual sales of the Sonata in the U.S.

As to whether people who buy an Accord or Camry are wasting money, that's their decision to make. If they feel they got good value for their money, then they didn't waste it. I think that is the prevalent opinion you we seeing here--not that the Sonata is the "only smart choice", but that it's an option in this field that allows buyers to spend thousands less up front and still get a lot of car. Same thing with the Fusion and Milan, and also the Impala and Malibu for folks who like those cars.

P.S. I don't own a Sonata. I wouldn't mind owning one, though.

elroy5 · July 2006

Kool Aid drinkers don't think at all. They just buy what the others buy, and bash everything else. Some day they will probably be sorry. From post 5101

Ok, what this says to me is: I bought an Accord because everyone else has one. And I will be sorry later.

For one thing, I don't drink Kool Aid. Second, I bought my first Accord in 91 because I wanted a good, reliable, car (did my research, and test drove two other cars, Camry and Grand Prix) not because I wanted to be like anyone else. I was so impressed with it, I bought a new one in 03. I think that if you had been treated so well by a car (for 12 years) you would have bought another one too. And would also be defending it (and yourself) here today. And the chances of me being sorry later are slim.

bobad · July 2006

Here's the whole thing in context:

I respect anyone that considers all choices and makes an informed decision, no matter what they buy. Kool Aid drinkers don't think at all. They just buy what the others buy, and bash everything else. Some day they will probably be sorry. I wish them well.

How you got "I think Sonata's are the only smart choice" out of that, I'll never know! Your mangnificent jumps to illogical conclusions are real beauties!

If you thoroughly researched your car before buying it, you probably made a smart buy, and will probably be satisfied with your car. Me too.

Good night Elroy.

elroy5 · July 2006

You seem to make the numbers reflect what you want them to (not reality). When you sell 400,000 cars, any INCREASE, in that number, is great. When all you sell is 165,000 cars, and it is an increase of 65%, that only means this crappy sales year, was preceeded by a terrible year. 401,000 is still much more than 165,000. Neither the Accord or Camry lost anything to the competition. They sold even more this year, than last. Which is pretty amazing.

elroy5 · July 2006

I wasn't talking about just you, or you in particular (wasn't replying to you, I was replying to "Backy" in that post). You still said what you said. And I'm sure you meant every word.

Good night, bobad

thegraduate · July 2006

Good night, and good luck...to EVERYONE!

wolverinejoe80 · July 2006

not many people doubts camcords and that's why people buy them. there are some serious camcord followers. it's like eating mcdonald's, you know what you are getting.

for sonata there are still many doubters. sonata was definitely a perception changing vehicle, but i still face many doubters here and there.

but you have to admit 65% is darn impressive for a hyundai. numbers don't lie. remember when hyundai's number was neck to neck with mitsu? that was only 6-7 years ago.

i'm curious to see how sonata will eat camcord's cake for next 4-6 years. sonatas number would most likely be around 250,000-300,000 in 5 years(assuming 10-20% gains every year) while camry and accord will probably gain 2-5% max. camry could reach half a million within next 5 years, and accord(must be well designed) around 420,00-450,000.

exciting stuff, isn't it?

joe97 · July 2006

You seem to make the numbers reflect what you want them to (not reality). When you sell 400,000 cars, any INCREASE, in that number, is great. When all you sell is 165,000 cars, and it is an increase of 65%, that only means this crappy sales year, was preceeded by a terrible year. 401,000 is still much more than 165,000. Neither the Accord or Camry lost anything to the competition. They sold even more this year, than last. Which is pretty amazing.

Sales increase for the Sonata is not due to the reason it had a terrible year previously. Far from it, actually...and this has applied to other vehicles (various automakers) if we dig up the stats from the auto sales vault.

kbondar · July 2006

Who said Toyota's sales are "treading water"??
Then how do we account for July 4,2006 Associated Press lead article entitled "Toyota's Sales Soar In U.S."??
Also, check yesterday's Canadian Press auto news--"Toyota sales sharply up, most other's down".
I'm not a diehard Toyota fan, but they must be doing something right!! That kind of "treading water" looks more like a sprint to me!!

backy · July 2006

This is the Mid-Sized Sedans discussion, so we were talking specifically about Camry sales, not Toyota sales overall.

mfletou1 · July 2006

And among the more bogus ways to characterize those Camry sales is that they are treading water. We are talking about a model that Toyota is still in the process of ramping up production of. Its just that it takes a while to build up inventory, and you need invetory to get sales. I think its actually remarkable that Camry sales are as strong as they are considering how few vehicles are actually available. I remember seeing 50-60 Camry's in the lot of big volume dealers around here, now many of them have less than 20 07's.

kdhspyder · July 2006

i'm curious to see how sonata will eat camcord's cake for next 4-6 years. sonatas number would most likely be around 250,000-300,000 in 5 years(assuming 10-20% gains every year) while camry and accord will probably gain 2-5% max. camry could reach half a million within next 5 years, and accord(must be well designed) around 420,00-450,000.

I'd guess that both levels will be achieved this year or next. Hyundai should deliver about 200K+ units this year and Toyota should reach just under 500K, until the Subie plant starts delivering them, then the figure should go to 550K+ units.

If gas stays at $3 or more then all the vehicles will jump as people dump their SUV's and trucks for more efficient transport. It's a good time to be building new plants. Hyundai, Honda, Toyota.

backy · July 2006

Only 2007 Camrys have been produced for many months. It doesn't appear that lack of vehicles is the reason Camry sales are pretty flat year-over-year. If dealers were sold out, I'd agree that there is a lack of vehicles to sell.

You can disagree all you want with the facts, but the facts remain: sales of Accords, Camrys, and Altimas are relatively flat or declining year-to-date compared to last year. Sales of competitors like the Impala, Malibu/G6, and Sonata are increasing at a faster rate, in some cases a much faster rate. Add the new Fusion/Milan sales into the mix and what does it mean? It means that people are increasingly turning to Camcordma alternatives instead of buying the Camcordmas that are on dealer lots, even with steep discounts and even rebates on the Accords and Altimas (which are older designs vs. the Camry).

kdhspyder · July 2006

Regarding the Camry anyway a key point not mentioned is that the the two following facts seem at odds with each other:
1. Y-o-Y 'flat' sales;
2. dealers seeming to have half of normal supply; double the normal Days of Sales rate.

The KY plant is at near max capacity IMO, ergo the need for the Subie plant to hop in quickly. If the KY plant has reached near capacity then until new investments are made the sales cannot but be 'flat'.

I do know for certain that the limiting factor for any large sustainable growth is the lack of engines throughout the product lines. I believe that I read that they need to build two new engine plants in NA after the San Antonio plant is finished.

backy · July 2006

You work for a Toyota dealer. Can you explain that puzzle?

How many 2007 Camrys do you have in inventory right now? Is it near zero? Do you find customers coming in to buy a Camry, but you have none to sell, so they go buy something else?

autoboy16 · July 2006

:confuse: Other than to lease an accord lx SE, i don't recall any HEAVY discounts at all :shades: . As old as the accord is, its still selling well so why discount it? Even the sonata has a discount but not a HEAVY discount.

mfletou1 · July 2006

The fact that the dealers had major incentives to sell 2006 inventory. I was told that 07 Camry allotment was based in part on 2006 sales. As a result, the 2006 Camry was aggressively priced and moved well considering it was the last year of an aging design. So the threshold for a year to year increase is higher.

Anectdotally, I was told by the Toyota dealers I visited that they consider the Camry to be a major success and sales are very strong. For one thing, the average transaction price is well over invoice, so these dealers are making money.

Remember, the goal for all involved is not neccessarily to sell volume, its to make money.

As for the Accord, yes, there are major discounts. You can now by a non-nav Accord EX V6 for under $24k--$3.5-4k under MSRP. This was not possible for the past few years. Accords are now routinely selling under invoice by as much as $1000. One of the Honda dealers mentioned that they were losing customers to Camry, but that they expected it to happen until they had a new model.

autoboy16 · July 2006

The reason thy are still selling the maxima is the same reason why toyota sells the avalon. The maxima is based off an extened FWD version of the altima. The maxima isn't much bigger on the outside, but inside is where it shines. For 2007, the altima is actually getting smaller outside while trying to keep the same dementions inside. The maxima is trying to be similar to the Crysler 300; being both sporty and somewhat luxurious. The maxima is being fixed for 2007 not completely changed so you shouldn't really expect to have something as minor as turn signals on the mirror. The Armada was freshened for 2006 (turnsignals on mirror, 60/40 3rd row and 3zone climate is standard) but those are needed on a fullsize SUV not as much so for a midsize sedan. The maxima also has history as being a really sporty sedan as the altima has only been around since 1994(unless you count the homely stanza) and at its sportiest for 2002+.

So for its full model change, expect: a 3.5 v6 and 4.5 v8, mirror turn signals, a more spacious interior and exterior and heated/venilated front seats. Almost forgot the growing trend of push button start! RWD isn't likely but AWD has a bigger chance with that V8.

kdhspyder · July 2006

Typically we have 60-100 Camry's in stock and sell 60-80/mo. Now we have 15-20 in stock all of which will be gone this week. Next week it will be the same situation.

There may be some lost sales to spur-of-the-moment buyers who don't find just what they want right away.

Corolla's are worse. Normally 40-50 in stock but recently it's been 0-10. For the 4th weekend we had to go to other stores and outright buy some in order to have them on the lot ( a DX with no exchange ).

There is a specific technical factor pertinent to Toyota's system as well. A store that makes a substantial investment in new facilities gets 'bonus' vehicles from Toyota as a reward for the investment. However with 'flat' production due to capacity limits these new facilities end up taking vehicles away from all the other stores.

joedirt · July 2006

I'll try to find the link, but trust me when I say that an huge number of additional Sonata sales this year are due to Hyundai selling massive numbers of Sonatas to rental car companies.

Read whatever you care to into that fact, as I'm not suggesting anything other than that's a large part of why sales have increased.

booyahcramer · July 2006

You assume that people will just forget about the negative impression Hyundai has hanging around their neck because they have a good model out now. They won't. It'll take many years for Hyundai to get up to the acceptance level that CamCords enjoy. The market may totally change by then anyway. Sonata's poor V6 fuel economy won't help it.

That's as exciting as watching paint dry.

backy · July 2006

What we need to know is, how many Sonatas were sold to fleets last year and how many this year? That will tell us how much of the 65% increase in sales is due to fleet sales.

It's interesting that with Camrys (and Corollas) so scarce, they are still being sold to fleets. I suppose it's possible that Toyota underestimated the demand of the new Camry (and the Corolla), but it's also possible that Toyota sees some value in offering its cars to fleets.

mfletou1 · July 2006

Or they simply had contracts with car rental companies.

As for the Sonata, as I said, I live near a major airport, and I see a TON of Sonata's with the telltale stickers on them--rentals...

Personally, I'd be pretty pleased to get a Sonata V6 as a rental.

ace35 · July 2006

fleet sales might not be good. But if you have a good vehicle, this is possibly the best press you can get for your vehicle. I was totally impressed with the Sonata V6, and Optima 4 cyl rentals that i used. I doubt i would've ever gone into a hyundai dealership just to test drive the vehicle. I remember reading a hyundai article that stated they were trying to get as many "butts in seat" as possible. And i belive this is a excellent strategy for hyundai, because they have alot to prove to the american consumer. And based upon my time with the sonata and optima, i will now cross shop both vehicles with the slew of other credible midsizers out there.

Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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