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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread
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Comments
I also priced the Accord LX V6 which there are no options available. The TMV came to $23,181.
How many family size sedans with a V6 engine can you get for under $20,000? I think the only others would be Chevy Malibu, Ford Fusion, and Pontiac G6, all American cars! I think I could live with the imperfections of the Sonata over the Accord LX and save OOHHH... $5,548 just to say to my friends I have a HONDA, too. Then disappear into mediocraty since evrybody and their mother has one! BORING!
I'm sure the Sonata is still $2k or so cheaper. Its also going to hold at least that much value, probably more.
Its up to consumers to make the choice. I've made the decision to go with the cheaper car and saved the money the last few times I've bought a car. I firmly believe you get what you pay for. I like our Malibu Maxx, for instance, but its not even close to the Camry I just bought. However, I paid $16,900 for it. A comparable Camry would have gone for considerably more. But, a comparable Camry also would be worth more right now, and more importantly to me, is less likely to have cost me 7 trips to the dealership for the same damn problem. In 2 years.
One thing that does gall me here though--a Hyundai Sonata owner calling the Accord or Camry boring. Give me a break. Save it. The driver dynamics on either of those cars, especially the Accord, are not boring when compared to a Sonata. Sure, there are more of them on the road, although I live next to a major international airport and therefore I see more Sonatas on the road than I do Accords and Camry's, and they all are rental cars. So to me, where I live, the Sonata is hardly unique either.
As I've said, I think its a fine car, but its no more exciting than the others and if anything, its probably less. Its an outstanding value. It doesn't need to be propped out with put downs to other cars in its class. I still think the Camry and Accord are higher quality vehicles in terms of interior materials, design, and driving dynamics. Whether they are worth the extra money is a personal decision for the consumer.
Thank you...A lot of people don't (or refuse to try to)understand this point of view; while 95% of a car can be had at 80% of the price, some people are still willing to pay more for that little extra 5% bit of quality in a car. It doesn't make either wrong, just different.
Others feel they are getting 100% quality for 80%, and to them I say congratulations. My senses won't let me feel that way, and it was worth giving up a V6 engine to get that 100% quality feel. Others feel differently, and that's why a car like Sonata is better suited to them!
~alpha
For example, is an M35 or a GS300 ($48,000) twice a better car as the Accord EX-V6 ($24,000)? Most would say no, but many are still willing to pay a hefty premium for the "extras" that those cars bring.
I feel like I got 98% of the quality for 80% of the price, AND I got a V6, AND the best warranty in the industry to boot.
Personally, I think a car is to get from point A to B with little or no hassle. I believe that the Camry (2007 not the 2006, though I heard the 2007 is having trany problems) and the Accord has the better interior materials. I wasn't implying the Sonata was a better car. My point was I like the money I'm saving. I don't care about how a car holds its value. I feel the Camry or the Accord isn't worth the extra money. Do I really NEED to spend more for a little extra comfort? I don't spend all day in a car.
As for dynamics, Consumer Reports tested 0-60mph. The Honda Accord EX V6 made it in 7.4 seconds, Sonata GLS V6 in 7.5.
Braking from 60mph, the Accord stopped at 145 ft. on dry pavement, Sonata at 132 ft. Wet pavement Accord at 149 ft., Sonata at 138 ft.
CR's Avoidance Maneuver tests maximum speed for Accord was 51.5, the Sonata was 55.5.
Turning circle for Accord is 39 ft., Sonata 39 ft.
CR's Fuel economy test rated Accord 15 mpg city and 34 mpg highway. Sonata was rated 14 mpg city and 30 highway.
Consumer Report's recommends the Accord as the Best all around Family Sedan.
Even Edmunds tested 2006 Camry, Accord, and Sonata. Out of the 3, Sonata came out on top, because of the value. The test cars were all equally priced.
What I'm trying to say here is, I think the Sonata is a great car for the money.
YTD sales
Camry +0.9%
Corolla +13%
Accord +1.1%
Civic +17%
Altima -5.0%
Cobalt +16%
Impala +17%
Mal/G6 +5%
F/M/Z undefined
Focus
Sonata +65%
Right...I think you are getting my point (you usually do though ). Value is not completely objective, because we all place different "value" on different things. I prefer the tightest interior, and was willing to give up things like a V-6 engine (I could've had a Sonata V-6 for the price of my top of the line Accord I-4) in order to get it. That's probably absurd to some, but not to me, because I didn't feel I needed more power than I got, plus the economy is a bonus. People value different things...it's personal choice, and we all get to have them, so there's no point in anyone being upset at anyone else's choice!
Luv, my Maxx is a 2004 LS 1SB, which is basically equivalent to today's LT. MSRP was $23100, I paid $16900 for it. There was a significant rebate. There have been two problems. The major one is brakes. The Maxx does not have ventilated rotors which it turns out is a huge oversight because our vehicle is experiencing near-constart warping of the rotors. What happens is that in heavy traffic (which is practically the ONLY kind of traffic in Metro DC!), the brakes end up getting hot, and then in a way melting when they cool. They wear unevenly and cause a heavy vibration and reduced stopping distance. When they are resurfaced, the problem comes back within 1,000 miles or so. The dealer has actually replaced the rotors under warranty, but the same thing happened with the new ones. I just had them resurfaced again (under warranty) last week, this time at a different dealership. We are no longer driving the Maxx as often or as hard, so hopefully we'll be able to go longer without warping.
The other problem, so to speak, is far less important--its just that we don't feel the interior has held up all that well. We've had three different dash/console pieces fall off. All but one has been fixed (just haven't gotten aroudn to the other one), so it not like a huge problem, but it does speak to the quality of materials used.
To give you a fair balance, though, I would still recommend this car to a knowledgeable consumer looking for a value. The versatility is astounding. I can't get over what we can fit in that thing. If you've looked at it, you know about the cavernous rear sit that adjusts, the way everything folds down, etc. Perhaps interior quality has improved some since 2004. The powertrain and transmission have been fine. I'm not thrilled with the electric steering, but it has been trouble free and you do get used to it. With side airbags, which ours has, it gets good crash test ratings, insurance premiums are very low.
My Camry is a 2007 Hybrid with an MSRP of $27500. I paid $26600. There is also a tax credit of $2600 on that vehicle, so I consider my actual purchase price to be $24000. My motivation frankly was to gain access to the HOV lanes in VA. Considering the level of equipment though(bluetooth, 440 watt sound system with 6 disc change and direct IPod plug in, a very sophisticated stability control system (VDIM, not just the standard Toyota system) on my car a sunroof), I think its actually a good deal. So far, I'm driving it exactly like I drove my previous car, an Oldsmobile Intrigue (aggressively), and getting 34 mpg. My Intrigue got about 21 mpg on the same route, the Maxx gets about 23.
I will just point out to you that while you pay less, your car is also worth less when you trade in. Now whenever I buy a new car, I say that I'm going to keep it a long time so it doesn't matter. I usually end up betraying myself eventually and so do most people--even if they don't intend to (circumstances change, more/less kids, whatever).
I wouldn't go by CR's performance numbers, I prefer C/D, RT and MT, personally. I think they've clocked the Accord a little faster than Sonata, and I know they've clocked Camry V6 faster than both of them. Not especially important in the real world. When I speak of driving dynamics, I didn't just mean the raw numbers but how the car feels, handles and performs getting there. The Accord is still very impressive in this area--I think the interior design lags behind the Camry and for me, a tall guy with long legs, it wasn't as comfortable. I ended up feeling like the new Camry significantly improved handling characteristics to the point where it was in the same ballpark as an Accord (as opposed to a Buick Regal), and the Camry Hybrid engine was powerful and quick enough to make me choose it over the Accord Hybrid. (Obviously not as quick as Accord, but better economy by far).
If you were to choose to pocket some cash upfront and buy a Sonata, I would never tell you were making a bad decision. I'd say you were getting a lot of car for the money. I also would argue with you, however, if you were to suggest that the Sonata is objectively a better car than either Accord or Camry.
The Impala shocked me as well. ( Fleet or retail? )
The Accord despite it's age ( see Altima ) is doing very well with reportedly low fleet sales.
The F/M/Z situation is interesting since the Taurus will reportedly be finished within a few months. Wonder where these sales will go?
The Sonata is doing very well albeit coming from a relatively low base.
If Ford don't open up the Fulan to fleet sales, I can see GM, Hyundai, and Kia benefitting a lot from the Taurus/Sable's demise.
We have an '07 Camry or two in our rental office but that's down from 6-10 units in the past.
I live next door to people who only are in town once or twice every 2-3 weeks. They own a place there but don't have a car and rent from the same agency. I always note with interest what they end up with.
Their last group of rental cars were: Chevrolet Uplander, Malibu, Malibu Maxx (twice), Impala, Ford Fusion (twice), Mercury Milan (twice), Hyundai Sonata (twice).
I'm not positive what agency they go with and that mix makes it tough to tell. I would imagine they have seniority at whatever agency it is and therefore get among the better cars available in their class.
We still have a boatload of Altima's sitting at the back of our lot that cannot be sold becaue of the recall.
Considering that the recall was so major for some automakers, I'm surprised the sales weren't lower.
What may be going on in the numbers is simply the "Rule of Small Numbers". What that means is basically quite simple. Smaller numbes show a larger growth percentage with smaller increases. Examples show this best.
Let's say you sell 400,000 units and improve 3%, now you are at 412,000. 12,000 unis more. Now let us say that you were at 65,000 units and improve to 75,000, only 10,000 units more but a 15% improvment percentage wise. When you are talking large numbers, a lower percent is harder to achieve. I don't know what Camry sales were last year vs this year YTD but it is something to consider when looking at the numbers even the fact that the Camcord sell in relatively large numbers compared to its competition.
One of my favorites is: if you make $50 profit on day one and then make $100 profit on day two, your profit has increased 100%. If you make $50 profit on day three, your profit has decreased 50%.
You should be able to check Camry sales this YTD vs last YTD at www.theautochannel.com Then click on "Toyota" in the right hand column.
Isn't the Maxima a larger car than the Altima? If so, the 2 can never be compared.
-Loren
The Maxima may be on its way out as is, so a RWD 6er from Nissan would definitely be sweet. Keep it under $30K and it would sell better than the Maxima.
These numbers (percentages) are very misleading. (and just the kind of thing a Sonata owner will quickly jump on). A 65% increase for the Sonata is easy to obtain. When you consider they sold next to nothing last year. The Sonata wishes it could tread water (as you put it) at the level of the Accord, and Camry.
And I am not bashing the Sonata. It was a major improvement (in sales), from last year. I just don't like it, when some of you say people who buy an Accord or Camry are wasting money, and the Sonata is the only smart choice, because that's far from true.
Maybe my memory is not so great, but I can't recall ANYONE actually having said that. Can you refresh my memory with a post number?
I would guess the Sonata owners are all willing to say that your car is a wonderful car, and you made a great choice for yourself. We are happy for you! Instead of listening, you get these wild ideas in your head that we think the Sonata is superior to your car. I don't think anyone is saying that.
I think the Sonata's greatest strength's are that it has no major weaknesses, a surprising amount of refinement, the best warranty in the industry, and a refined V6 engine... for $16500 +TT&L. A lot of people find that combination remarkable and pleasing. Others are suspicious, saying "where's the catch?" Well, I'm here to tell you, there is no catch so far.
As for the 65% sales jump, I agree with you. The jump is not significant except as an indication Hyundai is on the right track. A couple of more years of those 65% jumps, however, and Hyundai has captured a significant share of the market. :surprise:
Once the Sonata reaches 400,000 units sold a year, maybe Hyundai will be glad to "tread water" at that level. Maybe not. Good story in the August R&T about the race between companies from Japan and the Republic of Korea in building the Petronas Towers in Kuala Lumpur. Worth a read. It helps explain why Hyundai may not be satisfied to tread water when they reach 400,000 annual sales of the Sonata in the U.S.
As to whether people who buy an Accord or Camry are wasting money, that's their decision to make. If they feel they got good value for their money, then they didn't waste it. I think that is the prevalent opinion you we seeing here--not that the Sonata is the "only smart choice", but that it's an option in this field that allows buyers to spend thousands less up front and still get a lot of car. Same thing with the Fusion and Milan, and also the Impala and Malibu for folks who like those cars.
P.S. I don't own a Sonata. I wouldn't mind owning one, though.
Ok, what this says to me is: I bought an Accord because everyone else has one. And I will be sorry later.
For one thing, I don't drink Kool Aid. Second, I bought my first Accord in 91 because I wanted a good, reliable, car (did my research, and test drove two other cars, Camry and Grand Prix) not because I wanted to be like anyone else. I was so impressed with it, I bought a new one in 03. I think that if you had been treated so well by a car (for 12 years) you would have bought another one too. And would also be defending it (and yourself) here today. And the chances of me being sorry later are slim.
I respect anyone that considers all choices and makes an informed decision, no matter what they buy. Kool Aid drinkers don't think at all. They just buy what the others buy, and bash everything else. Some day they will probably be sorry. I wish them well.
How you got "I think Sonata's are the only smart choice" out of that, I'll never know! Your mangnificent jumps to illogical conclusions are real beauties!
If you thoroughly researched your car before buying it, you probably made a smart buy, and will probably be satisfied with your car. Me too.
Good night Elroy.
Good night, bobad
for sonata there are still many doubters. sonata was definitely a perception changing vehicle, but i still face many doubters here and there.
but you have to admit 65% is darn impressive for a hyundai. numbers don't lie. remember when hyundai's number was neck to neck with mitsu? that was only 6-7 years ago.
i'm curious to see how sonata will eat camcord's cake for next 4-6 years. sonatas number would most likely be around 250,000-300,000 in 5 years(assuming 10-20% gains every year) while camry and accord will probably gain 2-5% max. camry could reach half a million within next 5 years, and accord(must be well designed) around 420,00-450,000.
exciting stuff, isn't it?
Sales increase for the Sonata is not due to the reason it had a terrible year previously. Far from it, actually...and this has applied to other vehicles (various automakers) if we dig up the stats from the auto sales vault.
Then how do we account for July 4,2006 Associated Press lead article entitled "Toyota's Sales Soar In U.S."??
Also, check yesterday's Canadian Press auto news--"Toyota sales sharply up, most other's down".
I'm not a diehard Toyota fan, but they must be doing something right!! That kind of "treading water" looks more like a sprint to me!!
I'd guess that both levels will be achieved this year or next. Hyundai should deliver about 200K+ units this year and Toyota should reach just under 500K, until the Subie plant starts delivering them, then the figure should go to 550K+ units.
If gas stays at $3 or more then all the vehicles will jump as people dump their SUV's and trucks for more efficient transport. It's a good time to be building new plants. Hyundai, Honda, Toyota.
You can disagree all you want with the facts, but the facts remain: sales of Accords, Camrys, and Altimas are relatively flat or declining year-to-date compared to last year. Sales of competitors like the Impala, Malibu/G6, and Sonata are increasing at a faster rate, in some cases a much faster rate. Add the new Fusion/Milan sales into the mix and what does it mean? It means that people are increasingly turning to Camcordma alternatives instead of buying the Camcordmas that are on dealer lots, even with steep discounts and even rebates on the Accords and Altimas (which are older designs vs. the Camry).
1. Y-o-Y 'flat' sales;
2. dealers seeming to have half of normal supply; double the normal Days of Sales rate.
The KY plant is at near max capacity IMO, ergo the need for the Subie plant to hop in quickly. If the KY plant has reached near capacity then until new investments are made the sales cannot but be 'flat'.
I do know for certain that the limiting factor for any large sustainable growth is the lack of engines throughout the product lines. I believe that I read that they need to build two new engine plants in NA after the San Antonio plant is finished.
How many 2007 Camrys do you have in inventory right now? Is it near zero? Do you find customers coming in to buy a Camry, but you have none to sell, so they go buy something else?
Anectdotally, I was told by the Toyota dealers I visited that they consider the Camry to be a major success and sales are very strong. For one thing, the average transaction price is well over invoice, so these dealers are making money.
Remember, the goal for all involved is not neccessarily to sell volume, its to make money.
As for the Accord, yes, there are major discounts. You can now by a non-nav Accord EX V6 for under $24k--$3.5-4k under MSRP. This was not possible for the past few years. Accords are now routinely selling under invoice by as much as $1000. One of the Honda dealers mentioned that they were losing customers to Camry, but that they expected it to happen until they had a new model.
So for its full model change, expect: a 3.5 v6 and 4.5 v8, mirror turn signals, a more spacious interior and exterior and heated/venilated front seats. Almost forgot the growing trend of push button start! RWD isn't likely but AWD has a bigger chance with that V8.
There may be some lost sales to spur-of-the-moment buyers who don't find just what they want right away.
Corolla's are worse. Normally 40-50 in stock but recently it's been 0-10. For the 4th weekend we had to go to other stores and outright buy some in order to have them on the lot ( a DX with no exchange ).
There is a specific technical factor pertinent to Toyota's system as well. A store that makes a substantial investment in new facilities gets 'bonus' vehicles from Toyota as a reward for the investment. However with 'flat' production due to capacity limits these new facilities end up taking vehicles away from all the other stores.
Read whatever you care to into that fact, as I'm not suggesting anything other than that's a large part of why sales have increased.
That's as exciting as watching paint dry.
It's interesting that with Camrys (and Corollas) so scarce, they are still being sold to fleets. I suppose it's possible that Toyota underestimated the demand of the new Camry (and the Corolla), but it's also possible that Toyota sees some value in offering its cars to fleets.
As for the Sonata, as I said, I live near a major airport, and I see a TON of Sonata's with the telltale stickers on them--rentals...
Personally, I'd be pretty pleased to get a Sonata V6 as a rental.