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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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Comments

  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Just imagine if both the new Fusion/Milan and Jetta prove to be more reliable than the new Camry .

    Then you'll have a great buy on a car with good handling, good power/room, and iffy resale (Fulan), and a reliable underpowered good-handling car that is priced beyond its small interior and dismal fuel economy should allow (Jetta).
  • driverdmdriverdm Member Posts: 505
    So, driverdm and satire2, have you drive both the Mazda6 and Fusion before?

    Yes, indeed I have. Thank you for asking.

    By the way, the drive I had in the Mazda last night was beautiful. I think the small size adds alot to its nimbleness. I am interested in seeing what they do with the next one. The Mazda6 also comes well optioned for drivers with radio controls in the steering wheel, leather wrapped steering wheel and shifter, and manu-shift standard in even the base model. Also has ABS and traction control. Very nice cars.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Agreed, I like the Mazda6 too. If I am in the market for a midsize sedan I'll opt for a Mazda6 sport. Hopefully the next 6 will have just as good as the handling and with the new 3.5 V6.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    I do a lot of city driving. Trip computer says average fuel consumption is 17.1 mpg at an average speed of 20mph!
    Comparison: Avalon got 16 mpg and our Honda Pilot gets around 17 mpg.


    What is amazing about this, I think, is that a very heavy Pilot, gets close to the same mileage as the Altima. Hondas do very well, in the real world.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    "So scape2, you still haven't tell us how's your experience while test driving say...Passat (which you have just bashed), Accord, Camry, Altima and Sonata. I am eager to find out your opinion regarding those cars and how does your Fusion comes up on top FOR YOU.

    That's given that you have drived those cars before, and you have right? "

    First of all, I have never claimed the Fusion nor Milan to be the "best" in this class. What I will claim however is they are viable alternatives..

    The Passat is way, way expensive when comparing to the Accord/Camry/Altima/Fusion/Milan/Sonata. I don't even feel its even in this class. My feelings are the Passat goes up against more like the Maxima, 500/Montego, Acura, Lucerne, type vehicles. I don't think I bashed the Passat. the Passat is a nice vehicle. Spendy for what you get, but hey its your money..

    I did test drive all your normal family sedans. Altima, Accord, Camry, Sonata ect. I found the Fusion to be the right feel of driving for me. It is very sporty, a very confident driver of a vehicle. I have pushed the car through the twisties and it handles like its on rails. The Fusions value/quality/fit/finish/styling are what won me over..
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    "That seems to be true for the new Jetta, as well. It has been out for two years now and I have not read of a lot of problems. Just imagine if both the new Fusion/Milan and Jetta prove to be more reliable than the new Camry ."

    This would prove to be quite a problem for Toyota. I am also hearing the Avalon has had its issues too??

    I have a co-worker who has a 2005.5 Jetta package 2. He has had it for just over a year with no issues...
  • thesniperthesniper Member Posts: 44
    "For Ford's sake, I'd hope not! I think Bill Ford is counting on that in fact."

    and for sc...'s sake too!
  • thesniperthesniper Member Posts: 44
    "Spendy for what you get, but hey its your money.. "

    Hmmm...
  • ace35ace35 Member Posts: 131
    ANYONE?

    The 2.3L I4 is completely designed and built by mazda. Ive driven this I4 on plenty of occasions, and i think its a nice 4cyl engine, very smooth and high revving. I think the only negitive is, the 5spd auto thats its attached to. The 5spd auto is horrible, its saps power, surges and downshifts untimely This engine is plenty for the mazda6, but id go with the manual tranny to get the most out of this engine.
  • alan_salan_s Member Posts: 362
    Yes, the Pilot is an exceptionally good quality vehicle. Very solidly built, very quiet and refined and we've had zero problems or issues with it.
    Love the Altima too.
    What a surprise - the Pilot has turned out to be better than the Toyota Sienna it replaced, and the Altima is way better than the woeful 2005 Avalon it replaced.
    Toyota sure is going downhill fast. We're now Honda and Nissan converts.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Recently someone had posted a price comparison of the top trim levels. I took a look at this for a more basic trim level, which is what I would be buying. In my case, I know I can buy Accord or Mazda at invoice, and Ford/Mercury at $250 under, through a credit union program. (figures are rounded off)

    Accord LX-SE invoice less $750 = $19,200 w/ATX
    Fusion SE inv. less $250 discount and $1000 rebate = $18,000
    (this is with ATX, side air bags, ABS, and alloys)
    Milan = $18,400 (options and pricing like the Ford)
    Mazda6i sport invoice less $3000 rebate = $18,500 w/ATX

    Alternatively the Ford 6 year financing is worth, very conservatively, at least $2000 (after taxes).

    The price difference between highest and lowest price (Accord and Fusion) is therefore $1200 to $2200+, depending on how you want to calculate it.

    A difference of $1000 to $2000 has little to no impact on my choice. But it did result no further consideration to the less desireable (to me) Accord, due to the (too large, to me) price premium.

    OTOH, the price difference between the more desireable (to me) Mazda6 and Milan or Fusion (in order of my preference) made it more certain that I would go for the 6. If the Milan were $3000 less than the 6, this would be a tougher decision for me.
  • luvmbootyluvmbooty Member Posts: 271
    I faxed and e-mailed about 20 dealers. The lowest offer with the rebate was $18,150. I wanted the 0% financing for 72 months. He was going to sell it to me for $19,150. Options included Automatic transmission, safety and security package, ABS, and SE Sport package. With NY state tax my payments I figured would have been 287 per month with no money down.

    I feel I let go a good opportunity with the 0% at 72 months. Has any other manufacturer given this deal? Does it happen at least once a year from certain ones?
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    Has any other manufacturer given this deal? Does it happen at least once a year from certain ones?


    IIRC GM is doing 0% up to 60 months PLUS bonus cash depending on the vehicle. Ford's 0% goes up to 72 months but the cash is a separate deal.

    DCX does the 0% up to 72 months from time to time. Seems to be popular around model year clearance time.

    I traded my '04 Mazda6 in last Thursday for a nearly loaded '06 Mustang GT. I was able to use my X-Plan with the 0% for 72 months and got a really sweet, with a manual tranny no less, ride for a great price. I couldn't pass it up! No loss on the 6 (leased) either. They bought it outright.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Congrats on enjoying your two new vehicles.

    Toyota sure is going downhill fast.

    Not based in fact but it's one opinion among many.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Toyota sure is going downhill fast.

    You've got to be kidding. Most other car companies would love to be going down that same hill, I bet.

    I've never been a fan of Toyota, personally. But I certainly wouldn't say they are going down hill. Toyota has many loyal fans.
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Member Posts: 425
    i thought when i drove the mazda 6 I4 that the manual shift mode that the automatic that I drove helped quite a bit. but in general, the I4 (I think this is true with ALL midsize sedans with a 3000-3600lb weight) is a bit underpowered for how I like to drive.

    also, another person was wondering if the mazda 6's v-6 had vvt...yes it does. but it is not nearly as advanced as vtec in the honda engines. at 5k rpm, there is a big surge in my 6, but rarely do I use this. only on twisty roads with no traffic :shades:

    and another clarification...the duratec 3.0, I'm 90% sure is not totally a ford engine...I remember reading it was originally developed by porsche. not that this matters...all I care is that it has had a pretty good track record and is used in such cars as the noble M400(extremely high performance car from the UK). although it does have less HP than the altima, at least there is not torque steer like I felt in my test drive of the Nissan. and in the end, 0-60 times in the mid 6 seconds (i have an mtx; add a second for the atx) is plenty fast for a midsize family sedan!
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Member Posts: 425
    "Every car maker has its own share of pros and cons. IMO, generally speaking:

    Asian: Average driving dynamics/Good reliability
    Domestic: Below average driving dynamics/Average reliability
    European: Good driving dynamics/Below average reliability

    So, pick your poison..."

    sorry, don't intend to be mean, but this is a horrible oversimplification. and I know you are talking about generalities, but to say that asian cars can be grouped together like that is not accurate or fair. each model has their characteristics and I think there is sufficient space in this forum to discuss all of them without painting with too broad of a brush.

    and when given a choice between a passat at 30k, or a TL or IS300, g35 or 3series, I'd have a hard time choosing the passat. and really, these cars are in a completely different class I think. the VW model for this comparison should be the Jetta.
  • luvmbootyluvmbooty Member Posts: 271
    How about mpgs or crash tests?

    Do the Asians have the better mpg to power ratio?

    Do the German cars tend to be safer cars to drive?

    Do the Domestics tend to be not so over priced?
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    and another clarification...the duratec 3.0, I'm 90% sure is not totally a ford engine...I remember reading it was originally developed by porsche. not that this matters...all I care is that it has had a pretty good track record and is used in such cars as the noble M400(extremely high performance car from the UK).

    The Duratec also had some Cosworth influence besides Porsche, and Mazda made a LOT of tweaks to it before putting it in the 6, notably the VVT and different cylinder heads. It's a VERY reliable engine, having been used in different forms in the Probe, Contour, Taurus, etc., and a lot of 6 owners are former Contour (SVT and non-SVT) owners that bought the V6 without question.

    although it does have less HP than the altima, at least there is not torque steer like I felt in my test drive of the Nissan. and in the end, 0-60 times in the mid 6 seconds (i have an mtx; add a second for the atx) is plenty fast for a midsize family sedan!

    Couldn't agree with you more on all points. My test drive in the Altime 3.5SE was disappointing to say the least. Yes, the power was great, but keeping it in a straight line when leaving an intersection was a problem. Handling was unimpressive as well, you can really feel the weight of the V6 when cornering, much more than the 6. Between that, the cheap-looking interior, and the price (the 3.5SE w/manual was hard to find, and therefore much harder to negotiate down), I passed.

    My 6, OTOH, has been nothing but a gem. Excellent power, handling, and braking, a nice interior, great styling inside and out, all for a great price. The only problem in two years and 35K miles is a faulty gas cap that tripped the CEL, fixed under warranty.
  • lweisslweiss Member Posts: 342
    I don't think it was a "horrible oversimplification". In fact I agreed with it. But I am a person that loves it when people "net it out". Of course there are nuances and exceptions, but as a general rule, what was said about European, Asian, and American makes is true- at least for the present time.

    And for those people that think that Toyota is in trouble, don't get your hopes up. The Asian manufacturers (not just in cars, in almost every field) have a pattern of learning from their mistakes and not only fixing them, making the next product much better. And most people I know would still buy a Toyota product in a second, even if GM or Ford or Chrysler products were proven more reliable. Toyota built up a great reputation over the past 30 years, it won't disappear in a few months.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Heard a radio ad from a Twin Cities Mazda dealer this morning. They are offering $6500 off on all 2006 Mazda6s 6ATs when you finance through Mazda ($5500 off if you don't). That means you can get a nicely-equipped Mazda6s with V6 and the 6AT for as little as $18k + T&L. Very nice deal on a V6 mid-sizer.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    I don't think it was a "horrible oversimplification". In fact I agreed with it.

    Just for one example of why this is wrong...Honda and Toyota are known for high reliability. Mazda, Nissan, Mitsubishi are about average. OTOH, the handling and ride of Mazda is certainly above average.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Isn't ford known for leaking gaskets in their V6s...or is that just the 3.8L version?

    My sieve (3.8L ford V6) is one of the reason's I'd rather get the 4 cylinder Mazda6.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    Isn't ford known for leaking gaskets in their V6s...or is that just the 3.8L version?

    I believe it's just the 3.8L. Totally different engine with different design.

    IIRC, The Duratec was never offered in 3.8L form, nor have I heard any major problems with leaking gaskets.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Anecdotal personal experience with the Duratec 2.5l from a Contour (non-SVT) with a 5speed was great. Popped a couple of water pumps in 150k but other than that was fine. OTOH with most other cars, you have to change a rubber band that operates the valves every 70k or so, and its such a PITA the water pump is changed "while you're in there."
    While the Duratec wasn't a torque monster, it was more than adequate to make an entertaining ride with a manual trans.
    The car also saw track duty in driving events, so I have absolutely zero complaints with that vehicle and its durability.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    I had a '98 SVT Contour with the 2.5 Duratec 195hp version. It had a timing chain just like the Duratec 3.0.

    The engine was great. To bad I had quality issues with everything else with the car. Ended up trading it in on a Jetta in 2000 because I couldn't take it anymore (and yes the Jetta was perfectly reliable for me).

    The SVT 2.5 Duratec just loved to rev and smooth too. Without watching the tach, I'd often hit the 7200rpm rev limiter cause it was so willing to rev. Torque wasn't a strong suit, but it was a lot of fun when the variable intake switched @ 4500rpm into lets go mode. I've yet to drive a FWD domestic car that is as entertaining to drive as the SVT Contour was. I just loved autocrossing it. Particularly when going up against GM cars in the same class. I just ate them up.

    The closest thing I've driven to the SVT Contour is a Mazda 6.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Well the contour was related to the Mazda 626, which was replaced by the 6...so maybe its not surprising that a number of contourites seem attracted to the 6 (and pehaps the fusion, as well). This includes me. I have had a couple of contours that I bought used ('95 and '96) both were 4 cyl and MTX. My daughter and son now drive them.

    The 4 cyl zetec has been a pretty good engine for us, 140,000 miles on the '95...hoping it lasts until the daughter graduates from college in May.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    What?? There are n problems with the Duratec 3.0 for leaking seals...
  • ctalkctalk Member Posts: 646
    Accord – Total: 38,043; Retail: 37,625 (Fleet: 1%)
    Passat – Total: 5,003; Retail: 4,918 (Fleet:2%)
    Altima – Total: 17,669; Retail: 15,143 (Fleet: 14%)
    Milan – Total: 3,490; Retail: 2,970 (Fleet:15%)
    Fusion – Total: 13,612; Retail: 11,053 (Fleet:19%)
    Camry - Total: 41,892; Retail: 34,084 (Fleet: 19%)
    Mazda6 – Total: 6,192; Retail: 4,236 (Fleet:32%)
    G6 – Total: 17,516; Retail: 10,107 (Fleet: 42%)
    Sonata – Total: 14,039; Retail: 6,978 (Fleet: 50%)
    Impala – Total: 26,480; Retail: 11,969 (Fleet: 55%)
    Malibu – Total: 17,662; Retail: 7,012 (Fleet: 60%)

    Source: link title

    Impala, Sonata, G6, Malibu all above 40%!

    Mazda6 was surprisingly high.
    As usual, the Accord leads in retail sales.
  • luvmbootyluvmbooty Member Posts: 271
    So what's significant about FLEET sales? Is it that the regular consumer isn't interested as much being a higher percentage is fleet?
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    So what's significant about FLEET sales?

    With many FLEET sales, that means that a lot of 1-2 year old used models will flood the market, driving down resale value. It also represents where the "bang-for-the-buck" cars tend to lie, since rental companies aren't likely to shell out more money for "refinement," "style," or "fun-to-drive" cars, with the exception of the Mazda 6(fun to drive).
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Note that more Camrys were sold into fleets in the month that was reported (note it's not all of 2006 as per the title of the post, just one month) than Sonatas. That doesn't bode well for resale values of Camrys I guess.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    ;) Then imagine what it does to Sonata resale values at 50% :P

    A lot of the Toyota fleet sales of all vehicles goes into the TRAC program which in 6-8 months remarkets them through the Used Car depts of the respective TRAC stores. It's a huge benefit to the participating stores.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    But the Toyotas still get sold to the public, don't they?

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • mfletou1mfletou1 Member Posts: 508
    Nice spin backy...

    Lame, but nice attempt. Its also an indicator as to how well a particular vehicle is selling. If a manufacturer has the demand to sell a car retail, it will. Toyota was tied into some existing fleet contracts which will be expiring and that accounts for some, too. But all of these cars with 30+ fleet indicates these are models that do not have high demands.

    I understand that the Sonata is a better car, etc, but its not going to have good retail value. That's a virtual guarantee with that many fleet cars.

    I think the Fusion fleet number is good news, too, but my question is what happens when the Taurus is not longer available to fleets? I wonder what the 500 is doing.

    I just returned from a trip which involved a bunch of rental cars at various Hertz locations. Still quite a few Tauruses around. Hertz has really diversified since they are no longer owned by Ford, so there were also a lot of Impalas an Sonatas. That seems to be the bread and butter of the passenger car fleet. They also had a bunch of Subaru Outbacks, Pontiac G6's and various SUVs. One red Camry SE (odd trim for Hertz) at Seattle.

    I ended up with a Mustang, a Nissan Murano, and an Explorer.
  • ctalkctalk Member Posts: 646
    I wonder what the 500 is doing.

    All this information is offered in the link I provided. You can even look at the trucks/SUV's at this link .

    The Ford Five Hundred is selling at about 31% to fleets.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Lame, but nice attempt.

    Why is it lame? Please explain why having Sonatas from fleet sales (whatever the fleets are) "flooding the market" will hurt resale values, but having even more fleet-sale Camrys hitting the resale market won't have an effect on Camry's resale value. Also please explain why Toyota is different because it is "tied into" fleet deals. Don't you think Hertz et. al. have contracts with other automakers that tie them into selling a certain number of cars to fleets?

    It is a reminder that percentages don't tell the whole story, whether it's fleet sales or depreciation or whatever.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    In my observations, a 4cyl Camry has a resale value that is below an Accord. V6 Camrys seem to hold their value well since most fleet Camrys are 4cy models.

    I was suprised at the number of Camrys going to fleet, but if you look them up on Autotrader, the number if 1-2 year old Camrys and Accords for sale pale in comparison to the domestics.

    The bottomline is most people seem willing to pay more for an Accord/Camry vs. the others. Supply is a big part of the resale value, but you still have to have a willing buyer.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    The TRAC program in a way insulates the vehicles in it from having a huge depressing effect on the resale market, Yes the vehicles are sold 'used' by the TRAC dealer but often they have few more miles than a new demo so they appear to be semi-new. The prices obtained for these gently used TRAC vehicles is often near the new vehicle price.

    Out of 1700+ dealers in the US & C I'd guess that 500 of them are TRAC stores with 5-50 TRAC Camry's in each fleet. As you noted all or nearly all are 4c LE's
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Honda/Acura auto sales slip by 17% in August
    =======> Aug 2006 vs 2005 ...... YTD 2006 vs 2005
    Accord* .. 34,504 .. 46,153 .. -28.0% .. 250,663 .. 258,514 .. -3.0%
    Memo: Accord
    Hybrid 499 2,336 -79.4% 4,248 11,651 -63.5%
    Civic* .. 31,549 .. 34,762 .. -12.6% .. 225,212 .. 203,673 .. 10.6%
    Memo: Civic
    Hybrid 3,411 4,146 -20.8% 21,841 19,106 14.3%

    MY changeover?
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Note that Accord sales overall are down for the year, and Civic sales are up. So I think it has more to do with increased competition for the Accord (new Camry, Sonata, Fusion/Milan for example) than MY changeover. Civics have been hot, so it's possible dealers are running thin on those, but I see ads re big discounts and lease specials on 2006 Accords, so they can't be too rare yet.
  • rgray3rgray3 Member Posts: 23
    Maybe gas prices are the reason for the dip in Accord sales and bump up in Civic sales.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    That could be, but consider sales of the Sonata are way up for 2006. Sales of the Fusion/Milan have been added to this market for 2006. Camry sales are up or at least solid for 2006. Accord's are slipping. Maybe because it's one of the oldest designs in this class, besides the Mazda6, and the Altima (replaced for 2007)?
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    The Accord makes sense as it ages into its final year, but the Civic???? As hot as this new model has been and with gas still in the $3.00 range for most of August?

    Curious.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    The Civic isn't a mid-sized car.

    Sales have been strong all year, so that drop could be due to dealers running out of '06s.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    , but I see ads re big discounts and lease specials on 2006 Accords,

    A lot of dealers and car makers run ads with low prices just to get you on the lot. They may only have one model that is specifically on sale.

    In Birmingham, Serra Honda is out of 2006 Accords now. Only 2007s on the lot (very few Accords period, and only 3 coupes!)... I'd attribute the lower numbers to lack of inventory of 2006 models, at least here in Alabama that is.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Looks like the year-end closeout sale on the Accord was a success then, at least in Alabama! :)

    Here's a tidbit from my local Hyundai dealer: Hyundai is ramping up production of I4 Sonatas in Alabama to partially offset an expected shortage of Elantras, due to the 2007 Elantras not arriving until January, due to the recent strike in Korea.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Looks like the year-end closeout sale on the Accord was a success then, at least in Alabama!

    It most certainly was, in my eyes!

    Here's a tidbit from my local Hyundai dealer: Hyundai is ramping up production of I4 Sonatas in Alabama to partially offset an expected shortage of Elantras, due to the 2007 Elantras not arriving until January, due to the recent strike in Korea.

    I know it belongs in the news&views section, but on what scale is this strike (if you know)? What caused it?

    I think making more I-4 cars is a good idea; people still are valuing efficiency more than they did 5 years ago, despite the recent small price drop in gasoline. Paying $2.61 a gallon looks great when you compare it to $3.02 of one year ago, but looks awful when you compare to the $1.77 per gallon in B'ham of 2 years ago, or $1.40 of three years ago.

    (Gas prices referenced from BirminghamGasPrices.com, a spinoff of www.gasbuddy.com... a really handy site that operates in MANY cities around the nation, from Akron to Worcester...check it out!)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Yep, the strike details belong in News & Views. I have someone following me around these discussions, waiting for an off-topic post so he can protest, so let's stick to mid-sized cars.

    I am disappointed the 2007 Elantra will be delayed, because it will be one of the least expensive and most fuel-efficient ICE mid-sized cars available, with the possible exceptions of the Versa and Sentra. (Yes, the Versa is rated a mid-sized car by the EPA, imagine that!)
  • w9cww9cw Member Posts: 888
    I recently rented a car from Budget for a trip to NY. Of course, it's the luck of the draw on which vehicle you are assigned. I received a red 2007 Camry SE 4-cyl automatic w/o a sunroof. In viewing several locally-owned rental agencies, the foremost car on the lots is the 2007 Camry. I saw no Sonatas at the locally-owned agencies, and only one Sonata at Hertz at our local airport.

    There's no question that the Camry will retain its resale value better than the Sonata, but given the incidence of reported problems on the new Camry - now covered extensively by the mainstream media, not just by Edmunds.com forums - the Camry may no longer be the darling it once was in the long term. The large percentage of owners are happy, but it's the vocal minority who gets the coverage, and this will eventually affect Toyota.
This discussion has been closed.