Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

backy · August 2005

Ten minutes in the Intolerance Closet for you.

truethat · August 2005

Two things for you. These have been repeated over and over in forums.
1. Highest Automation rate anywhere. Most workers don't even touch the car.
They press buttons. (with a touch of exaggeration)
2. Longest pre-production problem-solving period in recent auto history. PLUS they
had more than 6 months in Korea to work out their problems.

Another thing that should not be overlooked is the fact that Hyundai watches and
studies everyone. Benchmark, benchmark, benchmark! Advantage for late-comers.

truethat · August 2005

bjbird2 · August 2005

Based on some of the early reviews, it looks as though the all new 06' Passat will be another benchmark design.
Now if they can improve the reliability, VW will have a world class car.

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FirstDrives/articleId=106641

rgyip · August 2005

http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews/sedans/0505_volkswagen_passat/

Another review on the new Passat.

The writer doesn't seem to like the ride. Hard to say, since his description is wordy and somewhat vague (to me.)

"But despite the reengineered lightweight suspension (it shed 29 pounds), the new Passat shines only on glass-smooth pavement. While it soaks up long-amplitude bumps with aplomb, the brittle low-speed ride and the angry response to sharp-edged potholes are nothing to brag about. Even on standard tires (run-flats are optional), the ride is irritated by random small arguments between the springs and the dampers. Adding to the confusion is a certain amount of lateral and longitudinal waywardness. The ho-hum directional stability at high speed is another negative."

I don't know how much credit I would give the writer in this case. In the beginning of the article, he says the new Jetta looks bad and the new Passats looks good. To me, the new Passat just looks like the new Jetta but stretched out.

backy · August 2005

Aren't the Jetta and Passat based on the same platform? I noticed a similar problem (great on smooth roads, not so great on roads with even small bumps e.g. tar strips) on the New Jetta.

rgyip · August 2005

Yep, the new Passat is based off a stretched Jetta/Golf platform.

maxamillion1 · August 2005

Thanks you

Cars have been my passion since the age of five.

maxamillion1 · August 2005

I knew you would name the safety features. But my question was simple:

Name features I had NOT named. Every safety feature you stated I had already given the Sonata credit for. That was my point

Reading is well...you know. :P (Joking)

ctalk · August 2005

8-way power seats are not standard on all models.
If they are so unpopular, why did Honda and Hyundai decide make side curtain airbags standard across all their cars no later than '06? And why does Toyota make ESC standard on most of their vehicles (but not the Camry)?

These features (ESC, traction control, side curtain airbags) is not important to the average consumer. Camry is still selling well without those features. Honda and Hyundai put these features in to make their cars more appealing. And Toyota doesn't make it standard on most of their vehicles...?

backy · August 2005

I did name the features you didn't name. There was quite a long list as you'll recall. Plus I also named the many standard safety features of the Sonata, for all the other people in the world (except you I guess) who might think they are significant. Or do you expect me to type exactly what you tell me to type, and no more? That's a little restrictive, don't you think?

What is it that I know about reading?

janeenc · August 2005

Just curious, why do you say that the average customer does not want esc,side-air bags etc? :confuse:

ctalk · August 2005

Well i cant prove the average consumer does not want side airbags, but after looking at Camry's sales. They dont care

Camry's sales aren't going down.... because of its lack of safety features. Camry's sales are actually going up.

tenpin288 · August 2005

These features (ESC, traction control, side curtain airbags) is not important to the average consumer. Camry is still selling well without those features. Honda and Hyundai put these features in to make their cars more appealing. And Toyota doesn't make it standard on most of their vehicles...?

I don't know where you are getting this idea from, but in this class of vehicle, which is primarily a middle-income family sedan, safety features are becoming increasingly important to their buyers. Remember that this class carries a lot of young families and parents are demanding and expecting their favorite vehicles to be as safety ready as possible. Stop and think about that. Why do you think so many mini-vans now come with side-curtains. In this area, Hyundai is ahead of the curve and for that I congratulate them and ask Honda, Toyota and the others, When does safety become standard?

janeenc · August 2005

Thanks for the reply. I consider myself to be an information junkie!! I can't make a decision on any thing without researching it to death. Health issues,mattress buys,pet food... you name it,without being completely informed. I guess I'm always surprised to hear that more people aren't like that,especially in the information age!I can not imagine trading off comfort features in my car for safety features when you can have them both in the new Sonata.

backy · August 2005

Huh? Honda and Hyundai put these features in to make their cars more appealing.. to whom? You just said these features aren't important to the average consumer. As more competitors start offering these features standard, Toyota will need to respond.

Toyota offers VSC standard on all models of the 4Runner, Sequoia, RAV4, Highlander, and Land Cruiser, and some models of the Sienna. It is not standard on the Corolla, Camry, Avalon (!), Matrix, or Prius--although it's available as an option on all of those. So "most" is a stretch, it's more like an even split right now.

rgyip · August 2005

ctalk is kind of right, I think. The average consumer doesn't know what the real advantages side airbags do or what ESC can do for you. On toyota, almost everything is an option, and people don't know why they would pay for these options, which are seen as "extras." People lie their faith in Toyota because of their reputation for quality and family conscientious design. They believe that Toyota gives you what you need. Toyota has that reputation. Hate to say it, but I think people will care when Toyota tells them they should care. Just my opinion...

tenpin288 · August 2005

I have to disagree with this idea that the average consumer is not that interested in safety. Given the access even the average person has to information via the Internet and other media sources, they are asking for more safety standard and they want it now, not in a year or two, not when they buy their next car, or when the US government finally mandates it. I used to be in the auto business and still have very close ties to a number of salespeople in multiple dealerships (Ford, Toyota, Chrysler, Hyundai, Jeep,among them). And to a fault, they will tell you that safety sells and even more safety sells more. I believe you are right that a great deal of Toyota buyers do put their blind faith into the product they are buying. But that type of customer that puts that type of faith in a product without doing some basic research about all their choices and options is going away. Today's auto buyer goes into multiple dealerships with a lot more info and ammo than they ever had and will eventually force Toyota, et al, to catch up to companies like Hyundai that put safety first. :shades:

rgyip · August 2005

Didn't say the average consumer doesn't care...just doesn't know. If they don't know why something is important, they think they don't need it. It takes educating the average consumer why these features are important. Honda advertises that their Accord has a crushable hood that makes "safety for everyone", including the pedestrian and shows it through their commercials. Just saying your car has this and that doesn't make the consumer know why it's important. The vast majority of people aren't as educated as we are--they don't read the specs or read forum posts. They can't tell you what DOHC or VTEC stands for. But they know Toyota is good.

ctalk · August 2005

tenpin288: Of course the average consumer is interested in safety, but can you explain why the Camry sells well with its lack of safety features Accord and Sonata have over it. Camry's sales are actually going up.

rgyip: The vast majority of people aren't as educated as we are--they don't read the specs or read forum posts.
Exactly

tenpin288: Today's auto buyer goes into multiple dealerships with a lot more info and ammo than they ever had and will eventually force Toyota, et al, to catch up to companies like Hyundai that put safety first.
Can you prove that?

The Camry is literally dominating the mid-size sedan market.
Even though it doesn't have the safety features both Honda and Hyundai have standard.

maxamillion1 · August 2005

My question was simply to name stuff I hadn't named. But I really don't care what you type...

:P

tenpin288 · August 2005

Can you prove that?

Empirically, no.

Anecdotely, yes. I go back to my friends still in the auto biz. Without fail, they have told me that their customers are requiring more safety features on the vehicles they want. Has it become a deal-breaker for vehicles without them? Not yet in most cases, but in another year or so, the lack of side curtain airbags, torso airbags, active head restraints, etc in this class of vehicle will be an area of large concern for those manufacturers.

choe13 · August 2005

Like a commenter said before mcdonalds sales the most hamburgers in the world, but it sure isn't better than a wendys hamburger which doesnt' sale nearly as much.

Sales are good for the company and their profits but does not usually mean didly squat that the product is good compared to the rest. Mcdonalds could have good marketing or because word of mouth, or cuz they offer cute lil toys, their main products are not that great.

I see ctalk usually talk about Camry sales going up, and Accord is selling well to make it look like they are such great cars, which is totally untrue at this point of time.

lets talk about the heart of the matter, which are the cars themselves and not about business and numbers because they hardly reciprocate

ctalk · August 2005

I see ctalk usually talk about Camry sales going up, and Accord is selling well to make it look like they are such great cars, which is totally untrue at this point of time.
Totally untrue? :surprise:
I think some people in this forum (I won't say who) credit Sonata too much.
Atleast I admit Sonata is a excellent vehicle

newcar31 · August 2005

I think some people in this forum (I won't say who) credit Sonata too much.

some people in this forum don't give the Sonata enough credit.

ctalk · August 2005

I dont think its a industry benchmark (like some people do) but thats my opinion

But i think its a great vehicle.

pwimsey · August 2005

Actually, I think that everyone has given Sonata lots of credit for being a good car. But it seems that, at least in the eyes of some frequent posters, if you don't believe that the Sonata has surpassed the Accord and Camry and become the new midsize benchmark, then you are branded as a "Sonata hater."

backy · August 2005

The Camry is literally dominating the mid-size sedan market.

In terms of the most sales YTD, it has the most. But dominant? I disagree, considering it doesn't have a big sales advantage over the Accord and there are many Camrys sold to fleets (and hardly any Accords). Also, Honda's strategy is to avoid rebates even if it means some lost sales. That protects their pricing and also protects resale values.

2006 will be a very interesting year, with both Accord and Sonata offering an advantage over Camry in standard safety features, at least until the '07 Camry rolls out. Meanwhile, Toyota can afford to pump up Camry sales with rebates and fleet sales, making like Camry is the perfect family car--as long as the family is not in a collision.

choe13 · August 2005

for the record the accord and camry are respectable cars to the kind of owners they cater to, but are way overpriced where there are cars like the mazda 6 and sonata that are close in everything comparison and thousands cheaper. you are right ctalk, alot of people buy these cars purely out of their symbols and status as you said(and you can't tell me its not true for you either). It was definitely true when i purchased my 96 accord, and i had no regrets owning the car, but i knew it wasn't the best choice for the buck.

If accord and camry do want to keep hanging onto their lead they have built for a long time now but keep their price the same, they have to offer "extra". That "extra" need and headache has come into place because companies like hyundai are makign their cars that much more tighter and cheaper. BMW 3 series has done a great job adding "extra" to their more expensive new 3 series line adding more equipment, better design etc than ever before, this is what honda and the camry need to think about doing soon(not easy since they ahve progressed slowly the last two generations)

So as a car enthuist i respect the accord and camry, but as a bargainer and consumer, to me its a no brainer.

ctalk · August 2005

Well actually i would have bought a Sonata, but the Accords interior won me over. I loved the LED's, the leather, everything about it. Those cars are really equal in every area i looked (comfort, handling) If the Sonata had the Accord's interior, i probably would have bought it.

I know a lot of people who dont even take a look at the competition when they're puchasing a car. They either go straight to the Honda dealership, or Toyota without checking any other models. I think that is an unwise decision.

When i purchased my Accord, I looked at all the mid-size sedans (except domestics :P)

janeenc · August 2005

Thank you!!! I think that is how a lot of people who have done their research feel! Having already owned the competition, having an alternative that is on par and less expensive is great. All of the mid-size sedans in forum have its place in the market. But paying less doesn't mean you are settling for less of a final product. I'm glad the competition is tough because the consumer will benefit in the end! Let them all try to out best each other and out price each other for my benefit.

mcdaniel4 · August 2005

I have a 2004 chevy tahoe, great condition. Trying to decide whether to trade for a Toyota avalon, 2004 or 2005, to get the better gas? Any thoughts on this?

ctalk · August 2005

I tried out each car and i found Accord was the best package for me

Sonata was a great car, but it just wasn't for me. I didn't like the interior, and i wanted a car with a high resale value and a slighly sportier ride. (these things are whats important to me)

mcdaniel4: The Avalon is very fuel efficient and powerful. I would pick the 2005, because its newer and a lot better in almost every way then the 2004 model. You should ask the 2005+ Avalon forum because this forum is about mid-size sedans (Camry, Accord, Sonata)

sorter · August 2005

The Camry is literally dominating the mid-size sedan market.

2007 Camry V6 will be the same as Avalon, which means it can be 280HP. For the first time, Camry WILL DOMINATE.

ctalk · August 2005

Accord and there are many Camrys sold to fleets (and hardly any Accords). Also, Honda's strategy is to avoid rebates even if it means some lost sales. That protects their pricing and also protects resale values.
Very True

It will be interesting how the 06 Camry will put up against the Accord and Sonata.
But its 2007 model is coming out earlier, so no worries.

bhmr59 · August 2005

I started to consider a new car in late January...test drove an '05 Sonata in early February. I'd heard a lot of good things about the car. I never even thought about side airbags before looking at the Sonata. Not having been in the new car market for many years, I was unaware of all the features some brands include.

So, yes, when I first started looking I didn't care about side airbags. I suspect the average car buyer also dosen't know what is available compared to 5 or 6 years ago.

So, Ctalk, I don't think it's that people don't care about safety. It's that they were ignorant, just as I was, before researching what was available on the market. If I always bought Brand X and didn't research or consider other Brands, I'd be ignorantlly happy with my new Brand X.

backy · August 2005

For about six months or so, there might be some worries. Let's see if Camry can continue its sales lead before the '07 model arrives against tougher competition, both imports like the '06 Accord and Sonata, and new domestics like the Fusion and Zephyr.

Is the 280 hp for the '07 Camry confirmed? I'd be a little surprised (and sad) to see Toyota put that engine in the Camry. How much power does a family sedan need, anyway? I've found the I4s of the Accord, Camry, and Sonata to be plenty peppy. The V6 Sonata has more power than I could ever use. Who really needs 280 hp in a Camry? Who needs the Lexus ES then?

choe13 · August 2005

i'll bet 100 percent that its not. Why because the avalon only has 265. How dumb would that be that a lower end car can be faster? don't bet that it will have more than 250 horses

07 dominate?? i don't think so , seriously. I doubt it will become sportier than it is already, but it will improve in every other areas. That lack of sportyness will always be with the camry, and for it to change it otherwise would be too drastic that some camry owners will change cars(too risky). There will always be a market for the mazda 6's of the world thats for sure

ctalk · August 2005

280hp, not likely.
I already think my 240hp Accord is powerful. The ES will have to be 300+ then :confuse:

It will most likely have around 250-260 hp. MAYBE 270 for its SE model.

There are a lot of new mid-size sedans coming out.
Chevrolet Impala
Ford Fusion
NG Nissan Altima
NG Camry
NG Mazda 6
NG Honda Accord
Saturn Aura (I believe the Saturn Aura is aimed towards the Acura TL crowd)

backy · August 2005

Also the Optima, which should be a sportier version of the Sonata.

Is the Impala really a mid-size? I thought it was full-size (and Malibu was mid-sized)? Moot point I suppose, for this discussion anyway.

bjbird2 · August 2005

Also the new Passat, which will have 280 HP, the 3.6, powered by a newly developed narrow-angle V6 with an output of 280 hp and 265 lb-ft of torque.
The last generation Passat was top ranked over many of the sedans in this discussion, and the next generation may well be again.

ctalk · August 2005

It seems the Impala competes with the Accord, Camry and Sonata to from what I've read.

"Both inside and out, the 2006 Impala  a front-wheel driver  is about the same size as its predecessor and its domestic rivals, the Ford Five Hundred and Chrysler 300. That means it's nearly 10 inches larger than a Honda Accord, but offers about the same interior volume." Edmunds First Drive
It has the same interior volume as Accord, but is 10 inches bigger.

Do you have any spyphotos of the NG Optima? I cant seem to find any.

bjbird2 · August 2005

Interesting that the new Passat will have more HP and torque than it's cousins, the Audi A4/A6, which sell for up to twice as much.

choe13 · August 2005

not A6 4.2 which has 344 horsepower. Not also better than the S4 which has almost 400 horses.

As well the passats 280 horsepower engine does not have all the bells and whistles the lower horse power audi a4 and a6 have. So even though they may have lower horses they have all of these other little gadgets that make the car faster, more feul efficient etc.

In comparison the avalon is a toyota and so is the camry. they both have same engine piesces and no way the camry will have more horses. That will hurt their own company seriously

truethat · August 2005

Let's just calm down a little folks.
I think I'm getting very antzy about waiting for the Azera or the '07 Camry.
I hear they are beginning the price mark-down for 06 Sonatas.
So, I'm going back to the dealer tommorrow. Wish me luck.

maxamillion1 · August 2005

My research began in high school when the '03 Honda Accord hit the market. My aging 91 Accord EX was giving me minor problems and I needed something bigger for work and for carrying my uncle and late grandmother.

The Accord would be my best choice. My parents and I agreed and I gave it consideration. Every car magazine gave it top ratings. I loved the interior, the way it drove and thought it was an ultra-refined and better car than the Camry or Altima. I even placed an order on an Graphite Pearl EX-L Navi with manual transmission. However, I dropped the order because the Accord had one glaring flaw that I just could not get over.

I could not (and still don't really like) the styling of the current Accord. At 18, I couldn't see myself driving it everyday. A good car, but the styling just didn't do it for me. (I'm young, sue me :P)

I did more research and included the Mazda6 and VW Passat as contenders. Didn't mind the Mazda6, except for the crazy (at that time) pkging configurations. I didn't like the Sport pkg, and it was impossible to get any options without it. Nissan had a similar problem with the 2002 Altima. The VW Passat was a beautiful car with a beautiful interior, but the prices and VW's reliablity scared me away. Though I was young(er), I knew if this car was going to take me into college, I'd need something that would have more than a pretty face.

So back to the Accord, even though I didn't like its styling. The Camry was considered briefly, but I didn't like it's styling much and thought its interior was inferior to the Accord's. Handling didn't do it for me either. What finally dropped the Camry off my list was the fact that I live in the infamous SET region. We have Camry LE's with leather, rims, spoilers, body kits, etc. etc, and some with expensive "ToyoGuard" pkgs that range from $300-$800 bucks. No dice.

However, I had a soft spot for the current Altima. The mouse fur interior and lack of ABS and safety items crossed it off my list back in 2003. However, I got word of the Altima's facelift and the Altima became number one on my list. By March 2004 I bought a fully loaded Altima 2.5S with every option in Smoke with Charcoal cloth interior.

Great Graduation Present if I must say so :P

The interior is not top notch (Accord and Camry have better materials) and it doesn't ride as well as the Accord does, but I liked it better overall. I love its styling too.

Today, I'd look seriously at the Sonata, but wouldn't buy it because its styling, like the Camcords, is too bland for my taste. However, that doesn't negate the car at all. Its a good car, but at my age, I need a little more spunk. I should be here for at least another 50 years (I hope :P)

If I were buying today I'd look more at the 06 Accord, which I actually like better, or the new Camry (love the new interior) Competition among cars is getting like competition among computers.

Happy Motoring Days my Friends

And finally after a full MONTH after my car accident, I'll get my car back Wednesday

ctalk · August 2005

From what i see your really excited for the new Camry and Azera.
I think you should wait for them to come out unless Hyundai gives you a deal thats hard to resist on the Sonata.
Good luck at the dealer tomorrow

choe13 · August 2005

doesn't the car overall look like a stretched 05 elantra? the more i see this car the more i notice this. The elantra since hyundays disaster has been their bread and butter especially for world wide sales, not a bad risk to use the companies best car to design it.

the next elantra is a very important car for hyundai. Should be a very good car, with value and non econmically feel(unlike civics)

i'm sorry, civic sales good, but they are piece nothings. Ridiculously thin sheetmetal, everything is cheap but runs a long time. And if you try to start the engine in the winter , you mite as well take the bus

kenym · August 2005

Seriously I think some or better make that most of the posters on this thread need to get a freaking life. :sick: ">link title

gmctruck · August 2005

"It is a known fact that when a brand new factory is built in an area with relatively few skilled labor, quality sometimes suffer."

Again..... you are the one making that assumption. Do you have any proof to back it up?
Do you think that established older plants don't ever hire new employees? It comes down to process and training.... that's it! There will always be manufacturing issues to deal with regardless of who the manufacturer is or how long the plant has been in operation.

Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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