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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread
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Lesson is that initial quality doesn't mean much. My cars were fine at first, but went south. The intial quailty on my Camry Hybrid has been absolutely flawless. 5800 miles now, absolutely no problems, not so much as a squeak or a rattle. Do I declare this a reliable, quality car? Only so far. I can't make that real pronoucement yet. I have to wait a few years down the road. My GUESS is that it will be, just given that the quality of materials and driving dynamics are superior to any of those other cars I drove/am driving.
Scape--the Taurus is going exclusvely to fleets. If they're having a hard time killing it, its because Hertz prefers to pay Ford $12k for a Taurus rather than $16k for a Fusion, since they can charge consumers the same amount for each of them. The Taurus' SOLE appeal is that its cheap. That's it. A rental car company cares about nothing else. I think its safe to say its a "good car" in the same way my dad's 1999 Oldsmobile 88 was--very reliable, trouble free, good value, but not competitive in any area whatsoever. For some people, that's fine.
Sonata LX with leather $18,500(After rebates)------$4,800 trade
You forgot to put purchase price of two.
If you hate Kiadais, and won't buy them, its fine to me. As long as I don't have to pay for your next car.
I had bad experiences with a certain brand, and I don't want to buy them again with my own money. Is it hurts you that much?
I don't know what the fuss is over resale value either. I hope one day I can buy cars at the rate of every 3-5 years brand new. I would suspect it is far more likely people intend to keep their cars for as long as possible. And once you have 150k+ on a vehicle, I'm not really sure what kinda resale value you have on any car at that point anyway. And how many people that keep theri cars that long, just hand them off to someone else in the family (son, daughter, nephew, etc.) And how much of resale value is just based on perception/media hype? I think what I see is just as others have said, the big guys are starting to look in their rear view. At some point in time, sooner than you think, the big guys will indeed need explain why they charge $5000-6000 for a comparable vehicle. Sorta like those Wal-Mart commercials that are out now.
As far as rental companies go, they just buy whatever they get the best deal on. Quality has nothing to do w/ it, so rationalizing that because you see a bunch of a certain make/model as a rental car means no one wants them is foolish.
Everything goes in cycles my freinds. Hyundai's and the like cycles are on the way up, and Toyota and Honda are..well lets just wait and see
The Legacy is the largest car I have ever had, it feels about a third bigger than the '93 Accord, which, incidentially, may soon be replaced by a MS6.
Very well stated. I liked the Fusion and Sonata eqally, and I had a decision to make. The Sonata was a tad bigger, quieter, and less expensive, and that helped me make my final decision. But I really do like the Fusion. It's a quality car in every respect.
Wow, that's a $3750 difference, which is exactly the difference in purchase price. I think we have a new new winner!
Well I have driven a 6 with the V6. It's no match to the Accord's 3.0l V6. It's puncher, smoother and quieter than the duratec.
Even the Fusion is a hard sell for us, we didn't move many of them until Ford had that 0 for 72 promo going on, which got rid of most of the 06's except the S models. 07s are sitting all over our lot. The Mustang, Focus and Five Hundred move faster than the Fusion does, which is a shame, considering the Fusion is a very good effort by Ford. I think the Honda dealer across the street plays a role in taht.
IMO, it sounds like sonata... "Theres nothing all that great about it"
From edmunds long term tests, the MPG isn't that great, the interior causes some confusion (as with any new car), and the ergonomics are only OK. It looks ok but thats about as good as it get for me.
-Cj
If you don't want people to reply and converse about something don't post it. As I said, I can sympathsize, but you are the unlucky person who probably got the two bad Acura has ever produced.
The prior 3 rentals have been Fusion Zetecs. Driving nicely got about 30 mpg. I don't know, the Fusion didn't feel any more or less bland than the comparable CamCords.
I think resale value is based on what used cars sell best, and how much buyer's are willing to pay for them. No one knows this better than the used car dealers, so I'm sure that's where the statistics come from. Obviously more people are buying used Accords than Sonatas, and are willing to pay more for them.
Everything goes in cycles my freinds. Hyundai's and the like cycles are on the way up, and Toyota and Honda are..well lets just wait and see
I think you are in for a very long wait. Toyota and Honda sales continue to increase every year. More people are buying them every year, not less.
So what if a 10 year old Accord is worth $5K (for example) more than a comparably equipped and same model year Sonata? The Sonata buyer paid at least $5K less than the Accord buyer did to begin with! Can you buy a 2006 or 2007 Accord EX V6 with leather, etc. for $18,465 before TTL? I seriously doubt it. You can buy a 2007 Sonata Limited V6 with leather for that price. Thus, if all you are going to do is quote resale values, to make it a reasonable and valid arguement, you also have to quote the original purchase price of each vehicle - not the MSRP of each, but the actual purchase price. After all, if we are looking at how much money a person loses over a 10 year period, this is the reasonable and valid comparision.
Honda is a great car, so is Toyota, as I've owned both. Hyundai is closing the gap very quickly. Is a current Honda Civic or Accord perceptionally or quality-wise the same as an old Honda Civic CVCC rust bucket or the old Accord? Of course not - just as the current Sonata is not analogous to the old Excel.
It's difficult to determine from your writing style, "Theres nothing all that great about it"
From edmunds long term tests, the MPG isn't that great, the interior causes some confusion (as with any new car), and the ergonomics are only OK. It looks ok but thats about as good as it get for me., where you are quoting Edmund's (if at all). Are these your opinions or are you trying to quote Edmunds?
You don't think that ABS, ESC and side curtain airbags are anything special on even the lowest prices Sonata? How about the quietness, ride, interior room, cargo room and (at least) adequate power? What about the rest of the features that are standard equipment? The real world MPG is very good but certainly not the best.
If you drive a Sonata for a few hundred miles, I'm sure you will not say it is "cheap".
People "know" the good reputations and bad reputations. Whether a car is improving or falling back, it takes a while for the public to recognize the relative change.
I have a prediction. The 03 Accord and 03 Sonata resale values will be about the same difference as the original purchase prices 5, 10 years from now. Worth more now, and later.
The interior ect came from edmunds. The "Theres nothing all that great about it" quote came from the post I was replying too.
The interior of the sonata isn't all that great. It reminds me of a corolla(le) we rented. ABS, ESC, and the usual 6 airbags for that much are ok but its standard on all vehicle trims I like so I dont worry about it. I never said I don't like the sonata. I gave it points for exterior styling. Its OK not that great.
The sonata is cheap and inexpensive. Its a good car but not great. Too much plastic for me. Don't dislike the sonata and can YOU stop with the personal comments? I have MANY MANY years to buy MANY cars with my own money. I am quite the saver.
Seems weird but its true. The corolla is "inexpensive". It has many of the $23k sonatas options for 16k. It may be smaller but my mom and i averaged 45mpg. Did I mention that like the accord, its 5 YEARS OLD!!
-Cj :P
You seem to have forgotten the tranny issues the TL had. Acura has had way more than just 2 bad vehicles since inception.
On a more general note, there are so many different manufacturers out there that I would not buy another vehicle from the same manufacturer if the ownership experience of my current or a prior vehicle from that company was less than ideal. Thus, for me personally, I'll have to go through a lot of brands before I'll ever consider another Toyota, Ford, or Mazda. Honda is out based on dealership experience. I never made it into the actual car as the dealership staff was rude. Nissan is still in the game and my current car, a 99 Galant, has been the best vehicle I've ever owned. I will easily consider another Mitsu based on my ownership experience, although I am not attracted to the current Galant at all. My wife's Elantra has been practically perfect in over 50K miles so the Sonata is my current top contender for a next vehicle. GM offers nothing of interest to me; a friend has a Malibu and its OK but nothing more. Subarus are mildly appealing but they seem pricey for what you get. Every friend who has ever owned a VW says they aren't reliable.
I'm valuing my experience over that of the data aggregators, but in the end I'm the one who has to live with my decision. They influences my opinions, I suppose, but I buy based on my experiences and those of the people around me that I trust.
As a customer, I probably don't matter much to the car companies anyway. With the exception of a Mercury which didn't even make it to 90K miles (hence the ban on Ford products), I always keep cars for 100+K miles and generally for at least 6-7 years. So even if they do gain my loyalty it's not like I'll be making a dozen purchases in my lifetime.
Yeah right. You drove one, you didn't own them. The 03 Accord is much larger, has eight airbags, much stronger stereo, smoother ride, V6 engine, transmission shifts smoother. The 92 Accord was not big enough, under the hood, to get any V6 into, had only one airbag (driver), no vtec (the 03 V6 gets about the same mileage as the 2.2 inline 4 in the 92 Accord did with 100 more hp). The 92 Accord handled great, that's for sure, but considering the larger size and weight of the 03 version, it handles pretty darn good.
Actually, no I haven't. But I've refrained from listing all of the issues that plagued each manufacturer within the last 10 years. Especially Hyundai and Kia.
As far as your comment on Subarus I couldn't disagree more. Instead of looking at them as being pricey, my take is you get what you pay for. And with Subarus you generally get a lot, although like any other vehicle there are tradeoffs. Admittedly some of the tradeoffs annoy me.
The dealership experience is important, and I not only shop for a car, I shop for dealer. I also shop based on personal experience rather than the statistics purveyors. My choice of car manufacturers is rather limited. Maybe Toyota, Honda, Subaru, BMW and Porsche.
When you are ready to purchase a new car, with your own money that you are saving, let us know what you decide. After that, let us know what you decide a few years later when you have a home of your own (& hopefully a nice family to support).
A few thousand $ might make a difference to you then.
I agree that in 15 years they figured out to put a bigger engine in it since they made the car heavier, and they added a bigger stereo.
The comparison lacks compatibility though, a better benchmark would be the 4 cylinder model, which went from 2.2 to 2.4l and they added vtec (which was available in 1993 in the H22 in the Prelude, which was actually installed in the Accord for export). The V6 is considerably more $$$ even when inflation is taken into account.
I also am not a fan of Honda automatics, but I am a big fan of their manuals. I think in the late 80s and early 90s, they pretty much wrote the book on FWD manual transmissions.
I guess if you can make the car be that much more expensive, I would expect some improvement. I am glad you found that it was satisfactory.
What I was comparing is the best Accord available in 92, and the best Accord available in 03. There is a big difference. From hanging around on Honda forums, I've found that many 4th generation Accord owner's have swapped in the Prelude H22 vtec engine, in place of the stock F22. The F22 was not a bad engine (for that time), but the H22 dohc vtec was much better.
Fusion vs Camcord. What's next? Fusinota vs Camcord? Yeah, I like the sound of it!
Thanks, van
Heres our distance:
My future vehicle WILL be a corolla! Hopefully cars won't fly by then...
-Cj :P
van
I think the worst implementation of this was in a 98-02 import minivan, which had the radio below the vents, below the AC controls, so low in the dash that you had to look down to read it (and the display wasn't angled up at the driver either) in addition to being out of reach of shorter drivers. Wow, what a long way they have come with that!!
If someone is adjusting the radio so much that their arm freezes in front of the AC, they need to just put in a CD before they being their journey
Did you notice the Aura has a very similar design for the radio placement?
No, I didn't get a frozen arm adjusting the HVAC or the radio. Keep in mind that with many cars, the vent is between the steering wheel and the radio and/or HVAC controls, so I guess you'd really get a frozen arm/hand reaching across that vent every time you need to adjust either one.
Your numbers are too far away from real.
Top Sonata with Moon, V6, leather, ESC, ABS, Traction,6 CD with sub............so much more for $18,500.
Camry with those options will rape your wallet for another $10,000.
Corolla, not even go there. I park my LX next to my co-worker's brand new $17,000 Corolla at work.
Just outside look alone, my car looks three times more expensive.
My moms 2002 miata looks better than her bosses benz and its cheaper, so your point is? Your car is more expensive than the corolla. Remember, the corolla is 5 years old with interior ergonomics up to sonata and fusion stats but for less. When you get 44mpg, let us know!
-Cj
I'm amazed after a little over 3 months of ownership just how GOOD everything on the Camry is. I'm just talking about little things, like the feel of the door handle, or the way the hooks are built. We were parked next to a Fusion, and the seatbelt mechansim caught my eye. The adjuster is exposed on the Fusion, just as it is on our Malibu Maxx. The Camry's not, its built into a device that hides the mechanics and lets you slide it. Just little things, but they add up. And stereo quality--even at the Hybrid price point--is amazing and equiavlent to what you'll find in a 35k car.
A Civic LX costs more than $16k these days...
Has any one seen the latest Motor Trend magazine? Hyundai is going to be introducing a real upscale rear wheel sports sedan for 2008 available in 2007 and something even more esoteric in 2009. It will be going head to head with the Infiniti GS. No one has to be ashamed to have the H emblem on their car anymore and Toyota has acknowledged that they are looking in the rear view mirror and seeing one competitor moving up on its tail, quickly.
As an aside I have previously posted that I come from a longstanding relationship with Acura TL's and I really don't miss them. Happy as a lark with my Hyundais.
The dealers in this area are very lenient and easy to negotiate with. The Expedition (eddie bauer) my dad is looking at is priced at $14k with dvd and everything but Nav. The only downside is the 76k miles but thats not bad for an 04.
Cj
My concern for your friend is that there are flood-damaged cars being shipped around the country and sold for very low prices to unsuspecting individuals. I hope this is not one of those cars. But if it was purchased from a Honda dealer, then I doubt that is the case.
That's usually the first thing that's determined when poring over a friend's new vehicle.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I think resale value is based on what used cars sell best, and how much buyer's are willing to pay for them. No one knows this better than the used car dealers, so I'm sure that's where the statistics come from. Obviously more people are buying used Accords than Sonatas, and are willing to pay more for them.
i guess i should have clarified my point further, as some posters have since my last post. all of those things you mention i would be willing to say are absolutely true. but, these are all factors influenced by public opinion/media hype. people are more willing to buy more used accords/camry's etc, because they have a long standing quality reputation and are backed by just about every consumer magazine on the planet. whereas these things have just started happening for hyundai in the last 5 years. they are still fighting the negative perception from years past. you can see hundreds of posts on this board and others with comments along the lines of...'i can't believe i'm even looking at a hyundai, 5 years ago i made fun of this car?!?!' although they now have made quality vehicles for a few years, the old perception is still around, and the public perception is lagging behind accordingly. as you would expect from this, more accords and camry's have been puchased than sonata's over the last 5 years, so ofcourse there are more used car sales of these models. the pot to draw from is bigger, and the negative(but innaccurate)perception of hyundai is still there. once the perception of hyundai becomes more positive, those resale values will continue to rise as they have been. not to mention the current difference in resale price is around the difference in purchase price to begin with, making it a wash.
all cars discussed are good cars. i think people are just trying to say there isn't a $4-6K difference between them.
Wow!! you have 228,000 miles on your Escort! Boy that will sure make the Honda/Toyota crowd think a little!.. :shades: