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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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Comments

  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    One way to judge the manufacturers expected reliability is to look at how much an extended warranty costs.

    Sure, but to compare the costs from two different sources, as you suggest is questionable. I have compared cost of 8 year 100,000 mile zero deductible extended warranties from a single source, my credit union. In the case of Fusion and Accord the difference was about $200.

    Another consistent source, that uses extended warranty cost, is edmunds "true cost to own". This shows repair cost for 5 years and 75,000 miles. Fusion $757, Accord $637...I don't know about you, but $120 one way or the other is not going to be a deciding factor for me.

    According the edmunds data, the tiny difference in average repair costs is more than made up for by much higher maintenance costs for the Accord...about $500 higher than Fusion over 5 years.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Look even at the "unreliable" cars...VW Jetta repair costs for 5 years 75,000 miles, $815 (and lower maintenace cost than the Accord), according to edmunds. VW Passat $933 for repair costs.

    Now there are a few truely costly ones out there, but not many. One example is Jaguar X-type with repair costs of $4097!
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    My spin is the media is finally starting to read the internet! The fact of the matter is the media has been bashing Ford/GM over the years endlessly over recalls/TSB's any and all problems. In fact.. What ever happend with the Toyota Prius and its stalling issues? The car just stops at freeway speeds and shutsdown! I read one report on this issue and now its gone. I have yet to hear the reasons? Why isn't there more information on this issue? Why isn't the consumer being notified by the media?
    Granted, this is ONE article, ONE good article out of how many about Ford?? The media has played a part in GM/Ford demise and image. Notice I say PART not REASON.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Talking about VQ, I used to have 96 Maxima bought new. Its VQ is so smooth, so powerful (that time), all the way to nearly the redline.

    We're still driving our original 1994 Mercury Villager with the Nissan VG (variant of VQ) engine. We're at 215K miles. We've done no work on the engine or transmission. And it is still very smooth and we don't add oil between changes...
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Refinement is subjective. Show me where the Duratec 3.5L is way behind in power or emissions.

    Is that version of the Duratec related to the smaller one that was in the Mazda MPV around 2002? We were looking for minivans at the time and actually really liked the MPV...until we drove it. Sounded like an imbalanced washing machine up there. Our Accord's 4 and my Jetta's 4 were much smoother and quieter than that engine. If I'm going to spend over 20K for a car it is not just about reliability. I'm going to buy some refinement. I can always rent the thrashy cars.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    he [car] company that has the highest percentage of repeat buyers??

    According to JD Power, that would be Lexus.

    Maybe he was including car rental companies to come up with the high rebuy percentage for GM!
  • killerbunnykillerbunny Member Posts: 141
    What ever happend with the Toyota Prius and its stalling issues? The car just stops at freeway speeds and shutsdown! I read one report on this issue and now its gone. I have yet to hear the reasons? Why isn't there more information on this issue? Why isn't the consumer being notified by the media?
    Granted, this is ONE article, ONE good article out of how many about Ford??

    There were about 30ish documented Prius stalling, before Toyota reprogrammed the car software. There was 0 death.

    There had been more than 100 death caused by Ford Explorer catching fire at the steering wheel, before Ford finally recalled. :lemon:

    You know, people rant a bit more when there is fatality involved.
  • exshomanexshoman Member Posts: 109
    Two non V8 engines in American cars that I always liked were the 3.8 V6, especially in turbocharged form, and the 3.0 engine used in the Taurus SHO. Yes, I know that that engine was designed by Yamaha, but it was still a Ford engine. When that the variable intake system hit 4 grand, that was some of the sweetest sounding engine around, not to mention the good kick in the backside. I liked it so much I had two. An '89 5 speed, and a slightly less fun '94 automatic.

    As for the 3.8 Turbo, my dad had a '86 Buick T-Type (the supposedly more "adult" version of the Grand National). Always enjoyed borrowing that car. It didn't blow up.

    I don't think Japan had a 6 cylinder in the '80s that came close (with the possible exception of the Supra engine).
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Not really. The new 3.5L is a clean sheet design, not an overhaul of the old Duratec 3.0L.

    Some reviews call the 3.5L "thrashy" while others praise it for being smooth and quiet. It sounds like they're driving different vehicles. I think we need to wait for more reviews based on the production model, not pre-production prototypes.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    There had been more than 100 death caused by Ford Explorer catching fire at the steering wheel, before Ford finally recalled.

    That is ABSOLUTELY FALSE. There are no confirmed fatalities due to the cruise control switch which primarily affected full size trucks and SUVs and only a few explorers.

    Please retract your lie.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "That is ABSOLUTELY FALSE"

    What lie? At least one person died as a result of those fires related to the bad part.

    http://www.rolloverlawyer.com/rollover_news/rollover_news_page.php?ArticleID=52

    http://www.vehicle-injuries.com/ford-explorer-lawsuits.htm

    http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/06/16/ford.vehicles/

    Also link to http://www.fordfires.com
  • exshomanexshoman Member Posts: 109
    akirby is right. I read up on the NHTSA site on this, and they do say that there were no confirmed deaths, but there are 2 or 3 lawsuits out there that are claiming deaths.

    What I think you're thinking of was the Firestone tire debacle.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Did you click on the links? Here's the headline.

    WILLIS & AMMONS LAW FIRMS FILE NATION’S FIRST CRUISE CONTROL DEATH CASE
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Welcome to the American legal system. They filed a case, that doesn't mean they will win, it doesn't mean Ford is guilty, it means that some law firm decided they could go after Ford and get some publicity.
    Incidentially, the part in question isn't even a Ford part, its a brake component so its either Bendix or Bosch or Continental Tevis or one of the other suppliers that makes brake components.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Incidentially, the part in question isn't even a Ford part, its a brake component so its either Bendix or Bosch or Continental Tevis or one of the other suppliers that makes brake components.

    Still, it comes on a Ford, so Ford will take the blame.
    Panasonic makes the Accord's stereo(last I checked), but the complaints about the display going out go to Honda, not Panasonic.

    I know you didn't say that Ford shouldn't be responsible, but some people will likely see it that way.

    Many automakers have different parts suppliers, but it is the automakers who are selling the product, and they will have to take responsibility, most likely.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I agree with your point of view. I was just responding to akirbys' post about no deaths being attributable to that one part. It seems that this is inconclusive at best, even Ford is not found liable.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    a couple of nominees!
    The 3.8 that GM is continuing to put in cars these days, has long been reliable and, with the help of some appropriate gearing, economical as well. Limited to about 200hp in normally aspirated forms, it does have however a disportionate amount of torque (as pushrod engines tend to)that can help hide the lower HP. Pushrod designs, of course, are generally not very happy at higher revs, but it is a good choice for those that want a solid if somewhat non-performing engine. I thought they actually tried supercharging the 3.8 as well - but, in any case, not a good way to make up for the any engines inherent limitations. Ford also tried it in a supercharged T-bird. While there are some mfgrs that have made turbocharging a matter of habit, the Swedes and Subaru come to mind, and the technology has improved to a point that it is becoming almost transparent; the mechanical consequences of forced breathing, added mechanical complexity, and drivability issues (lag) remain. Supercharged engines, incidentally, do tend to have less 'lag' problems than turbocharged ones at the expense of some more reliability.
    In this group, don't understand why you would spend the extra money on that 270hp blown 4 in a Mazdaspeed when you can get the about hp and performance in the Camry V6, Altima/Accord V6 - and save a little on FE not to mention the extra 20 cents a gallon. The V6s will 'drive' better and the engine should last longer and/or be less problematic.
    I liked the the SHO engine as well, but it was a Yamaha engine that happened to be in a Ford, as you note. If I remember correctly it did have some reliability issues. GM recently managed to coerce Honda into supplying V6s for the Vue - think there were a lot of Vue buyers out there that were real happy to get the Honda engine. Never did figure out how GM pulled that one off because Honda has always been very protective of their substantial engineering prowess? While it did certainly improve the Vue, it is certainly not a Saturn engine! It is interesting to note that Ford has again enlisted Yamaha's help, a 4.4 liter V8 300+ hp that is available on some Volvos.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    disagree with that, all you really need to do is sit in a Fusion with the engine roaring at 4-5000 rpm, vs. any of these 'Japanese' V6s in the same condition - would even go further and tell you that specifically the Honda and Toyota 4s sound and feel better under load than paticularly the DT 3.0. V6!
    That 'refinement' that you think is subjective is one of the reasons why they sell the heck out of the Accords/Camrys/Altimas, and continue to have difficulties marketing the Fusions/Malibus/G6s etc. And no, I don't think it is a result of some sort of media plot, just the result of some more objective test drives by discerning buyers and professional reviewers.
  • rgyiprgyip Member Posts: 43
    I would disagree; the 3800 GM "Buick V6" engine is yesterday's engine. At the time, however, it was a solid engine as competitive as any engine of its time. The supercharged 3800 was a very reliable engine; the only time it wasn't is when people modded the engine, which was easy to do. The bottom end on that engine is good for over 600 crank HP. For less than 1000 bucks, you can easily get over 270 HP (300+ Crank HP) at the wheels and run the quarter mile in less than 14 seconds. At the time ('97), the only engine that had 240 HP was the VQ35DE engine in the Altima which didn't come until 2002. One thing that most V6s don't have over forced induction engines is torque. Conservatively ranked, 3800 S/C is at 280 ft/lbs but dynoed at at much at the wheels, the amount of torque allowed gearing that many people got over 31-35 mpgs highway with a supercharged engine with only 4 speeds. I get 27 mpgs combined with aggressive driving and that alone negates the cost of premium gas.

    I would agree that all things being equal, you don't want to forced induce an engine with the performance being the same. Today's OHC engines have better NVH and are better performers. But at the time, the 3800 and 3800 S/C were very competitive engines. But to cut down the supercharged V6 performance and engine reliability I think is wrong. A lot of people don't buy supercharged/turbocharged engines and leave it stock, they mod it, which hurts reliability.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    true, torque has its value and it is a function of reciprocating weight/displacement of the engine, the engine's compression ratio (higher with the forced air), and the engine's geometry (bore and stroke). HP (torque applied over time) remains, however, the best forecaster of a car's straight line performance.
    My remaining question on these blown 3.8s - if they were so good, why did GM abandon them as quick as they did - warranty claims, perhaps?
  • venus537venus537 Member Posts: 1,443
    How did Automotive Magazine described GM's 3.8 supercharged engine? Hmmm. Oh yeah, they said it was a powerful lazy engine.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "HP (torque applied over time) remains, however, the best forecaster of a car's straight line performance."

    Not quite true. To cite an example, the new G35 and 335 both have similiar HP numbers about 300, Yet the 335 makes it to 60 in about 4.7 seconds, with the automatic transmission. It's because the maximum torque comes in about 1400 rpm on the 335 vs. in the 3000s (or whereever it is) on the G35.

    It's the torque/hp curve working in conjunction with one another that determines straight line performance.
  • 2zmax2zmax Member Posts: 140
    I am just curious where did you get the 4.7 sec. figure - Edmunds says: "launching the 335i coupe and sedan to 60 mph in the mid 5-second range" ?? :confuse:
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    A few thoughts on some vehicles I sat in...

    Saturn Aura XR:

    Nice is the word that comes to mind. I'm not a fan of orange gauges (never have been, don't like them in the Altima either). The interior quality is certainly better than GM products of 10, or even 3 years ago. The interior styling is very "nice," tactile quality of the buttons and knobs is even good, if not great.

    The orange/brown leather was interesting, if not my taste. I applaud Saturn for going stylish on this one. A good effort, and one that should be a contender for shoppers looking at V6 sedans. The fuel economy is too low for me to ever consider it though.

    Problem areas for me? As mentioned; fuel economy, and the back seat. The back seat, when I adjusted the seat to the position I would drive in (all the way back) seemed small to me. I don't have the figures on the back seat, but with me in the driver's seat, and my friend (5'11", 210lbs) behind me, he didn't fit as comfortably as he does in my 2006 Accord (his words, not mine).

    I'd give Saturn a "Most Improved" award versus the old L-series. Kudos, GM.

    2007 Nissan Altima (3.5 SL w/Navi):

    Once again Nissan is a letdown. The interior of the Saturn surpassed the Altima, IMO. The switchgear felt loose in its housings (the knobs were all wobbly feeling). Quality was better than the old model, but that didn't take much effort to deliver. Altima was probably equal to the Fusion on how I feel about the interior - a letdown to an otherwise good car. The Altima has some cool design details, but the faux wood is too muddy looking, and the steering wheel controls were too easy to perform the wrong function (rocker switches that double as buttons to be pressed were easily pressed, but the rocker function required a delicate touch to get them to rock without pushing down).

    Altima, you gave me high hopes, but you let me down again!

    2007 Mazda 6i

    Nothing about the Mazda interior offended me really (except for the relative smallness of it), but nothing made me like the car particularly either. I realize the Mazda's purpose lies in the drive, but today was strictly an interior comparison for me (car show, remember?), and the Mazda made me yawn. The small, leather-wrapped steering-wheel was sporty, but that was the only real detail that stood out to me. A lot of black plastic abounded, and didn't make the car feel very upscale.

    Nice car, but nothing special inside, even for this lower-model.

    2007 Ford Fusion (SEL)

    Just a recap, and a refresher on this car. I really liked this car when I saw it a year ago, but the interior is a letdown to an otherwise stylistically and dynamically good car. The buttons lack proper damping, which in turn makes them feel lower in quality. The F-150 is more expensive feeling (given, it costs more, but should I have to settle just because I want a car and not a truck?

    I had forgotten about this one issue I have; the placement of the blinker stalk at the 10 o' clock position at the steering wheel. I'm used to the blinker being where I could wrap my thumb around the spoke of the wheel and have the blinker where my fingers could activate it. In the Ford, I can't. It's a simple ergonomic flaw for me, but little things like that, the stereo buttons that look alike, the steering wheel functions that require me to look at them (as opposed to my Accord which each button has a different raised texture so I can tell the buttons apart), and the climate control being below my knees all add up to a flawed interior.

    I still feel like it is a beautiful, brand-new, 10 year old car, when I sit in the new Fusion. Great car, but a few R&D hours short of greatness.


    *No claim is made that the opinions expressed are final, fact, or more correct than yours ever will be. Also, no claim is made that the media has influenced my decisions and feelings of American cars in any way. Your results may vary.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Dig around...you'll find it. Motor Trend dynoed the 335i. 300hp at the rear wheels. Sub 5 seconds to 60 would not be out of reach.

    Here's one link:

    http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupe/112_0610_2007_bmw_335i
  • 2zmax2zmax Member Posts: 140
    So this is not an actual drive test result, but an assumption based on the dyno test? The article said 5.1 sec, while the G35 was 5.4sec - so 0.3 sec is the only difference - No thanks BMW I'd stick with the G35 for 10k less.
  • 2zmax2zmax Member Posts: 140
    I am too dissapointed by the Altima.
    I test drove the 2.5S and it did not impress me. The sticker made me want to puke.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    IMPO, of course - despite the love that I have for the Nissan VQ, at 300hp it seemingly has reached its (normally aspirated) limit. at 280hp I felt that the VQ was almost sounding strained at 5-6k. It is time for Nissan to make some more substantial improvements in what has been the best. And if you want a true sports sedan that's not going to break the bank, the G35 remains about the only choice.
  • booyahcramerbooyahcramer Member Posts: 172
    Altho you can go fast in the G35, you may not like the feel of it at 125mph, whereas the BMW is rock solid at that speed, as well as getting up to that speed.... and then back down to zero without the car shuddering (and in the case of the G, grinding down the rotors after 20,000 miles).
  • rgyiprgyip Member Posts: 43
    LOL... The 3800 S/C isn't abandoned. It's still in the Pontiac Grand Prix GTP/GT (2005+) with the L32 engine with a newer supercharger, the Gen 5 M90. The series II blown version (L67)last engine was in the 2005 GM cars, such as the 2005 Impala SS, Monte Carlo SS, and the Park Avenue Ultra. It has nothing to do with warranty work.
  • venus537venus537 Member Posts: 1,443
    "Altima, you gave me high hopes, but you let me down again!"

    My sentiments too. Consumer Guide has the road test for the 2007 Altima on line now. According to them the car still has "pronounced" torque steer.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Interesting... C/D said it was pretty much gone:

    But there's little tugging on the wheel now and little deviation in the path when the power goes down. Uruly no more, this front-driver.

    http://www.caranddriver.com/
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Excuse me - I said no confirmed deaths. If it's not on the NHTSA website as being attributed to the recall, then it's not confirmed. Anyone can fall a lawsuit and claim anything.

    And the original claim was 100 - not 1.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Most buyers never rev their engines beyond 3000 rpm. The Duratec is smooth enough during normal driving. It's only a factor in car enthusiast magazine tests where they have to find something different.
  • venus537venus537 Member Posts: 1,443
    I would take more stock in what publications like Consumer Reports and Consumer Guide report. They don't pull their punches. Agree with them or not they tell you what they really think. I do think C/D is a lot better in this regard than the other enthusiast magazines though.
  • venus537venus537 Member Posts: 1,443
    "Most buyers never rev their engines beyond 3000 rpm."

    I don't agree with that at all. Perhaps Buick drivers don't go beyond 3000 RPM but many other drivers do.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    And I don't agree with you. The average midsize sedan driver is not an enthusiast posting on an automotive forum and they're not likely to use WOT much, if ever.
  • 2zmax2zmax Member Posts: 140
    HA, I can just see it now. I wonder what excuse will you give the state trooper after he clocks you doing 125 m/hr?? :sick: I take it you drove the G35 at high speeds, since you know how it feels at 125 m/hr. I’ve never had to go that fast, usually you get pulled over above 85 m/hr.
    I doubt that the new G35 feels wobbly at that speed, because it is just as good as the BMW in all aspects. There seems to be a lot of media bias towards the BMW's. I personally don't see the appeal and cannot justify the price tag. Plus we all know the crappy reliability of the BMW's. Almost everyone trades them in after the warranty is over.
  • 2zmax2zmax Member Posts: 140
    Man, I have no idea how can you drive and not ever go above 3000 rpm. Most car's peak torque and HP don't even start that low. I almost always drive above the 3000 rpm myself.
    What is the point of having all them horses, if you never let'em out to play? ;)
  • w9cww9cw Member Posts: 888
    venus527 wrote: "I would take more stock in what publications like Consumer Reports and Consumer Guide report. They don't pull their punches. Agree with them or not they tell you what they really think. I do think C/D is a lot better in this regard than the other enthusiast magazines though."

    As one who is an Advertising Manager for two national consumer magazines, I can say unequivocally that unless there is no advertising in a magazine, there is product bias, and reviews can be affected accordingly. In the magazine publishing business, display advertising pays the bills and salaries, not subscriptions or newsstand sales.
  • venus537venus537 Member Posts: 1,443
    Then you're making my point aren't you. Consumer Reports and Consumer Guide don't have advertising. Well, Consumer Guide has advertising online but not their publications you buy on the stands. Not that they don't have bias, all of us have some bias.

    To be fair to C/D and others, they do at times rip a new vehicle apart even with their advertising.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    The new GM 3.6L engine is my new top pick over the supercharged 3.8.

    Now, the 3.8 is a monster in sheep's clothing. Supercharging is what almost all of the serious racing cars in history have used, especially if you look at Formula-1 racing.

    Reliability isn't an issue, though, since the GM 3.8 is running with only a few pounds of boost. Seriously underblown, in fact. But it's enough to make up for the low end torque problems. A bit of gearing and presto - V8 torque and V6 fuel economy.

    But there IS one problem. Lag. The thing spins up slowly and really needs to be kept at about 3000rpm or more at all times.

    But the VVT 3.6... GM should drop this in everything that will fit it. It's smooth as silk, has no power-lag(1800rpm or so and it hits max torque), and responds instantly - like something from Honda. Fantastic economy, 200hp, and torque that's low and flat as a small V8.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I almost always drive above the 3000 rpm myself.

    So do I, but we're not average drivers.

    3000 RPM was probably a bit low, but the point was that most people don't rev their engines that high on a regular basis. Especially with folks so mpg conscious these days.

    Why do enthusiasts think the whole world drives like they do and likes what they do?
  • exshomanexshoman Member Posts: 109
    That probably explains all those enlightened folks who merge onto a 65mph highway at 40 and then take forever to get up to cruising speed, forcing traffic to unnecessarily slow down and increasing the chance of an accident.

    Going above 3000 RPM is not a bad thing, especially in certain circumstances.
  • booyahcramerbooyahcramer Member Posts: 172
    That probably explains all those enlightened folks who merge onto a 65mph highway at 40 and then take forever to get up to cruising speed, forcing traffic to unnecessarily slow down and increasing the chance of an accident.

    The Mr Magoo types are all around me. 300 hp Avalons that probably will never see 3000 rpms ever. What a waste.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Man, I have no idea how can you drive and not ever go above 3000 rpm. Most car's peak torque and HP don't even start that low. I almost always drive above the 3000 rpm myself.
    What is the point of having all them horses, if you never let'em out to play?

    Exactly, so why do people saddle all this power to a lug automatic transmission?
  • rgyiprgyip Member Posts: 43
    Actually, the S/C 3800 has the opposite problem, it doesn't have lag, it has increasing parasitic loss of HP when the RPMs increase.

    The advantage of a supercharger is the immediate power; the advantage dimishes as the RPM increases and that's when turbos become more efficient.

    The Eaton M90 supercharger always puts out the same amount of power at all times--90 cfms (hence the "90"). The supercharger is always "on", it's only when the valve opens up that the extra air is forced induced into the motor. The M90 is capable of putting 7.5psi of boost stock with the supplied 3.8" pulley that GM puts on their cars.

    I don't know if I agree that GM's "High Feature" V6 3.6L is the leader in the current V6 market, however it's a good engine. My opinion is that Toyota's 2GR-FE or even better, the 2GR-FSE are the best V6s out now. The 2GR-FSE has variable intake and exhaust timings, both direct and port injection, gets great fuel economy and great NVH levels that are typical of Toyota. All my opinion of course. :)
  • rgyiprgyip Member Posts: 43
    The "Lag" problem that everyone talks about in the 3800 has nothing to do with the engine...it's the torque converter. The torque converter always wants to lock up even and can even lock up when in the third gear. This problem is known as the 40 mph WOT lag. You have to wait for the torque converter to unlock before you get that surge of power. The PCM's tuning for the torque lock is too aggressive imo and is easily defeated by a tuner or an aftermarket PCM with different lock up tables.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Better still, I depress this pedal known as the clutch, move this lever from the #5 position to say the #3 position, release the clutch and fully depress the skinny rectangle one on ther right.
    Then the #4 can be selected, etc
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    300 hp Avalons that probably will never see 3000 rpms ever. What a waste.
    well, take it from somebody who owns one - it is damn near impossible to keep it under 5000 rpm, never mind 3 - the engine is that smooth (and willing). The new Avalon (and, for that matter Camry V6) scaring the bejeepers out of those "magoo types", that previous versions were rightfully known to attract. Imagine an Avalon with a console sequential shifter and a reason to use it - redefined the car. They both are still relatively 'soft' rides, of course, a characteristic that Toyota/Lexus has shown to be an American preference over the years.
    Not to mention the 27 mpg I get overall or the well into the 30s on the highway - the best combination of power and FE available in any large sedan - what a waste?
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