Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

gmontagew · November 2006

Worth a look!! Detroit doing better, but Toyota/Honda/ still out front?

http://www.detroitnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061109/AUTO01/611090364/- - - - 1148/AUTO01

kdshapiro · November 2006

You can find the rest one is C and Ds article here, I read one other article somewhere clocked below 5 seconds. I don't really care if you like the G35 or not or the 3 series or not, I was just making a point about HP and torque.

kdshapiro · November 2006

Sorry, there is enough evidence to show the part has complicity in a number of fires and probably deaths.

kdshapiro · November 2006

I know this is o/t but since you started. The 3 series and 5 series lead sales in their respective categories. And BMW is the smallest car producer. So even if you don't personally see the appeal, a lot of people do. As for this crap about trading them after the warranty, that is bunk.

2zmax · November 2006

Yeah, and the BMW 5 and 7 series was voted as the least reliable by many is bunch of bunk too :sick:
I personally know 4 people who owned BMW 3, 5 and 7 series - not one of them kept it after the warranty expired. The guy with the 7 series told me that it was the biggest piece of junk he ever owned and the guy with the 3 series had his in service quite often as well as my boss with the 5 series.
My HR manager had a 330 and traded it in for IS350  why, because she had it in the shop every other month.
So don't tell me that the BMW is reliable - as it consistently rated well below LEXUS, ACURA and INFINITI.
Even the Accords and the Camrys are more reliable then the 3 series or the 5 series BMW.
If you spend almost 40K on a small 4 door RWD sports sedan, it better run like clockwork all the time.
The only appeal I see in the BMW or the MB is for those who have an ego issue and need to feed it. Buying a car just for a name is stupid. As for me, Id stick with cheaper, more reliable and just as good cars from Honda, Toyota and Nissan.

kdshapiro · November 2006

"Yeah, and the BMW 5 and 7 series was voted as the least reliable by many is bunch of bunk too :sick:"

Actually as you notice, this has nothing to do with sales. In general, all vehicles are reliable, the difference between the most reliable brand (Porsche, I think) and the average reliable brand is one trip to the dealer per year.

"I personally know 4 people who owned BMW 3, 5 and 7 series - not one of them kept it after the warranty expired."

I personally know two people with Lexus' that didn't keep it after the warranty expired also. What could that mean?

"My HR manager had a 330 and traded it in for IS350"
"So don't tell me that the BMW is reliable"

Actually I will, having personal experience and knowing a number of people who drive BMWs, I won't convince the "new Ford is reliable" crowd that any car is or is not reliable. If you read the Edmunds boards, you'll also see that Lexus owners defect to BMW for various reasons. I'd buy an Accord over a Fusion in a second and a 3 series over both of them in the blink of an eye.

"The only appeal I see in the BMW or the MB is for those who have an ego issue and need to feed it. Buying a car just for a name is stupid. As for me, Id stick with cheaper, more reliable and just as good cars from Honda, Toyota and Nissan."

Thank goodness narrowminded people do not run BMW. Having a moving target with regard to class leading dynamics and driving makes for some really good products across the board. At 250,000 drive like they did at 10 miles. Not so with Honda or Toyota. You don't know how much fun driving can be in your Accord.

hpowders · November 2006

I have leased three BMW's: two 325i's and a 545i. I bought one of the 325i's out of lease and kept it for 9 years.
No problems. Just routine maintenance since 1993 for 3 BMW vehicles.

When my 545i lease expires in August 2008, I will be looking at the Accord EX V6 or the new MDX. I have gotten tired of looking at the BMW interior after all these years.
The 545i is a waste for driving in the USA. The Accord EX V6 should be just right.

scape2 · November 2006

That the BMW/Mercedes is lower on the reliability factor, yet people flock to these vehicles. These are purely an image/status vehicle in this country. In Europe BMW/Mercedes are just like GM/Ford here in the states. I once worked for a multinational communications company. We had visitors from Europe come to our home office. They would laugh and be amused at how Americans view all BMW/Mercedes as status symbols. To them they were status quo. visit Europe and BMW/Mercedes are common place. I guess I am of differnent mind. I won't pay $35,000++ for status/image, escpecially if its unreliable!!

scape2 · November 2006

This story about Ford Fusion/Milan being a reliable and well built vehicle has spread around the net. There are multiple links and data supporting this also.
The Fusion/Milan are alternatives to the Camry/Accord. Now Ford needs to improve on this platform and not let it just die on the vine. Many improvements coming for 07 model year. I just hope Ford doesn't decide to build a gazzillion of them. Keeps the numbers down for consistant quality/fit/finish of the vehicles.
http://www.detroitnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061109/AUTO01/611090364/- -

jeffyscott · November 2006

In Europe BMW/Mercedes are just like GM/Ford here in the states.

Does this mean that in Europe BMW/Mercedes are also seen to be just like, say, VW?

kdshapiro · November 2006

"yet people flock to these vehicles. These are purely an image/status vehicle in this country"

That is your opinion, and your opinion only. It isn't my opinion. My opinion is you get what you pay for in terms of a tightly integrated vehicle.

I wish I had the foresight to develop a business model as BMW. Take a product, make it tops in it's class, refine it and then advertise it likes it's the best thing on earth and charge premium prices. What a novel idea?

That's directly opposite to Hyundais' approach. Take a vehicle, make it almost as good as the class leader, cut a few corners etc. and charge a price way below the class leader. Another novel idea.

kdshapiro · November 2006

You're right, but in Japan BMW is a favored luxury status car. Go figure. :confuse

rgyip · November 2006

lilengineerboy,

Did you mean to reply to my post? If you did, there isn't such a thing as a clutch in the W-bodies as they are all automatic transmission.

lilengineerboy · November 2006

If you did, there isn't such a thing as a clutch in the W-bodies as they are all automatic transmission.

I know, which is one reason they aren't on my shopping list,or on my consideration list.

backy · November 2006

To be fair to C/D and others, they do at times rip a new vehicle apart even with their advertising.

Yep. Just take a look at their latest issue. They ranked the all-new Sentra (a mid-sized car per the EPA btw) last in a comparo in their latest issue. Nissan has tons of advertising in C/D, including ads on the new Sentra.

comp386 · November 2006

Mazda is updating the 6 in 2008 with a new platform. I don't know exactly what they're adding to it, but I think Ford needs to follow suit. The problem is it takes Ford far too long to bring ahead most of their vehicle offerings.

plekto · November 2006

The "Lag" problem that everyone talks about in the 3800 has nothing to do with the engine...it's the torque converter. The torque converter always wants to lock up even and can even lock up when in the third gear. This problem is known as the 40 mph WOT lag. You have to wait for the torque converter to unlock before you get that surge of power. The PCM's tuning for the torque lock is too aggressive imo and is easily defeated by a tuner or an aftermarket PCM with different lock up tables.
****
Which was my point. The thing has to be kept at about 3000 rpm all the time to defeat the transmission/stupid computers/etc. Okay, it''s downright apalling to have a full second where nothing at all happens. The Northstars don't seem to suffer from this, though.

That full second of lag where nothing at all happens at 35-40mph or so is also potentially dangerous and why while the engine is fantastic, GM really needs to rework the transmission or offer a manual. The CTS with stickshift is a 200% different car than the slushomatic model.

autoboy16 · November 2006

Ford doesn't have anything to be releases for a while... Maybe they should stare updating and redesigning some vehicles early

Volvo s60, s40(needs the I6), xc70, xc50, v70
All Jaguars (-xk)
mazda3, mazda6, rx-8(cabrio?), B-series, tribute
ford RANGER, Escape, 500, freestyle

How long has that ranger been around? 10 1/2 years?
-Cj :shades:

backy · November 2006

The Mazda6 is due for replacement next year as noted earlier. The Five Hundred is only a couple of years old.

The Ranger, B-Series, Mazda3, RX-8, Escape/Tribute, Freestyle etc. aren't mid-sized sedans the last time I checked.

plekto · November 2006

The RX-8 definately is a midsize sedan. They just did the quad-cab trick with the rear doors. And put some sporty exterior sheetmetal on it. But it's still a sports sedan at heart(and a mighty fine car compared to most of the competition)

w9cw · November 2006

The RX-8 may be a midsize "sports sedan" in character, but not in interior space. I would call it a "GT" instead. A sedan - although not always - implies 4-doors, and some real interior room and storage space, something the RX-8 lacks.

I wish Mazda would bring back the rotary in a sedan, a 21st century RX-2, RX-3, or RX-4 if you will. But, I understand the marketing positioning on the RX-8 given its price, and the rotary's fuel consumption differential.

The rotary is a very sweet engine.

explorerx4 · November 2006

in the local paper this weekend '07 accord vp/auto 20280 sale price 17,560.
lx-se/auto msrp 22,970 sale price 20,280.
sonata maybe?

cxc · November 2006

In addition, nobody is selling cars with a badge of Lexus in Japan. There, BMW is BMW; MB is MB. Nothing can replace them.

booyahcramer · November 2006

As for me, Id stick with cheaper, more reliable and just as good cars from Honda, Toyota and Nissan.

You're obviously not the customer BMW is looking for. They don't care about you. You can't appreciate the finer things in life. Sure a BMW 335 may not be worth $8K more than say a G35, but it still is an awesome car that many, many people want and desire. These people have the money - you don't. No need to spread your sour grapes all over this board.

pat · November 2006

Hey folks, we're not here to talk about BMWs of any flavor, nor Explorers, nor anything other than midsized sedans.

There are other discussions which cover these interests. If any of you need any help finding what you need, just give me a holler.

Your cooperation is appreciated.

captain2 · November 2006

akirby, you will be pleased to read a review of the Edge in the Dec 06 C&D. It has, of course, the new 3.5 DT, this one at 265hp, 250 ft./lbs. And not word about harshness, reticence to rev or anything like the offhanded comment they make about the 3.0 it replaces. It is apparently even designed to handle direct injection (see 2GR-FSE) although it says the the reason that it is not there, is cost - the reason I have said that the engine has been so late in coming in the first place. All in all, a favorable review for an engine with physical specifications similar to the 270hp VQ in the Altima also reviewed mostly favorably in the same issue.
Why the 'shame on you'? The article says that this engine is destined for the 2 Lincolns, the 500, the Edge, and the Freestyle!

Why not the Fusion???

Does this mean that folks that do want the extra power of a V6 in a midsize sedan are still stuck with the old 3.0? The 3.5 will likely help the 500 a bunch and apparently could take the Fusion into a dynamic territory now occupied by Accord/Camry/Altima and even Sonata V6s. Somebody needs to call Ford and find out if they really WANT to sell Fusions.

explorerx4 · November 2006

since most camcords sold are 4 cylinder models, what is the rush to put the 3.5 in the fusion?
the electronic nannies prevent use of the excess power anyway.

thegraduate · November 2006

End of Model Cycle is the key phrase here.

Same thing happens to most carmakers at the end of a model cycle... the prices drop due to people waiting out the new model's release. Tell the truth, assuming you wanted car X would you pay the same price for the car 5 years after its release as you would the month it debuted? Probably not.

I'd want to wait until the new, improved (usually anyway!) model came out and get that one, if the prices were the same.

The same thing happened with the 2006 Camry right before the 2007 debuted; prices dropped.

thegraduate · November 2006

Because they still need a top-end model that better competes with the top-end models from other companies.

The 4-cylinder Fusion is about the same power as I-4 Accord, Sonata, Camry, etc...so it's all "caught up" in the power race on that front. But the Fusion has the least horsepower in its class (I think, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) in the top-end V6 models. It offers a great value, great handling, etc... but it is generally 15-50 horsepower behind its compeitors.

I'm not ahuge advocate of the new Duratec, because frankly, the old one wasn't so hot IMO. I'll have to check out the new ones if they put the 3.5 in the Fusion.

explorerx4 · November 2006

is there going to be a new '07 accord?

thegraduate · November 2006

No, 2008 will be a revamped Accord. 2007 Accord have been on lots for a couple of months now. Look for the 2008 Accord next September.

Latest talk is that it will have the 3.2L from the TL, but that's just speculation.

explorerx4 · November 2006

grad... 2.3, 3.0, 3.5 are all duratec engines. the 3.0 trades some smoothness for less maintenance.
horsepower is not the answer to everything. back in '89 you could get a 3.0 in a taurus sedan that could outrun just about everything. it did cost more than a lot of people were willing to pay, though.

jimmy81 · November 2006

Look for Honda to introduce a DOHC engine for the 08 Accord.
The SOHCs have served them well, but times are a changing.

thegraduate · November 2006

Is my 2.4L I-4 a SOHC (2006 EX Accord)? I thought I-4s were DOHC. The V6 is a Single Cam engine though, you're correct.

My 2.2L in my 1996 I-4 Accord is a SOHC. Haha

thegraduate · November 2006

horsepower is not the answer to everything. back in '89 you could get a 3.0 in a taurus sedan that could outrun just about everything. it did cost more than a lot of people were willing to pay, though.

The Taurus was on top of the car market then, wasn't it? It was doing quite well when it was one of the powerful players...
I'm not saying that is why they sold, it is just interesting to note the correlation. Just a thought...

Horsepower isn't everything, but it is a lot to some people (not me, I got the I-4 model!). And this day in age when you can get a Toyota that delivers better fuel economy AND 47 more horsepower, Ford looks a little behind.

explorerx4 · November 2006

for some, it's all about the looks, not the reality.

thegraduate · November 2006

Yep... most want 300 horsepower, but will never use it.

captain2 · November 2006

don't know that Honda even needs DOHC -yet, the immediate future has already been here in form of the 3.5s in the TL type S and the RL at 286 and 300 hp respectively. Despite the SOHC, it is still a 24 valve head(s), and is continuously variable (VTEC) on the intake side. Honda, as usual, doesn't need any help building wonderful engines.
Put out the 08 Accord, with the same 270hp as the Altima/Camry in that 3.5, and the smoothness that is typical of all Honda engines, the Accord will remain at the top of the heap. Besides, the current 3.2 is anything but a slouch, a little low on torque but that should be fixed with the displacement increase.

explorerx4 · November 2006

if honda is running sohc, isn't that old tech? maybe is little less old tech than ohv?

venus537 · November 2006

"Now Ford needs to improve on this platform and not let it just die on the vine. Many improvements coming for 07 model year."

Bingo. They can't let the Fusion go the way of the Focus.

venus537 · November 2006

you funny man.

explorerx4 · November 2006

you never drove a focus with a 2.3? it is good!

venus537 · November 2006

"That the BMW/Mercedes is lower on the reliability factor, yet people flock to these vehicles. These are purely an image/status vehicle in this country."

There are many folks who get these cars becuase of status and image no doubt. That doesn't mean they're not wonderfully engineered vehicles. Perhaps not worth the extra money to many people but these are superior vehicles. You know I'm a big advocate for Hondas but my Audi is worth the extra money for what I want in a car. Please bear with me Pat.

venus537 · November 2006

Fine. Do you think it's keeping up with the Mazda 3 line up that includes the Mazdaspeed 3.

akirby · November 2006

The article says that this engine is destined for the 2 Lincolns, the 500, the Edge, and the Freestyle!

Why not the Fusion???

It is destined for the Fusion (and Mustang), but not right away. The 500, Montego and Freestyle get it in April of next year along with a new front, rear and interior upgrade.

They just don't have the production capacity yet to offer it in all vehicles. They might also wait until the 3.7L is available for Lincoln to keep the differentiation between the Fusion and the MKZ.

kdshapiro · November 2006

"There are many folks who get these cars becuase of status and image no doubt."

Image and status are moving targets. A fully loaded Toyota Camry with all of the trimmings as a new car to someone that has previously driven used Elantras is a status symbol. There is no $ amount over which a car can be considered to have an image or status. Bottom line, image and status to some is plebianism to others.

It's all based on where you started from.

explorerx4 · November 2006

i'd like to have a mazda3 2.3 justifying the extra 7k is not so easy for me. mazdaspeed 3 is even more. call me a cheap yankee.

venus537 · November 2006

Is a Rolls-Royce a status car? And does this car come standard with a chauffer?

venus537 · November 2006

$7k? Even if you assume one pays full retail for the Mazda 3.2 and one pays the discounted price for the comparable Focus you don't get close to $7k. Sounds like "Thee Math" from Carl Rove.

explorerx4 · November 2006

never heard of a mazda 3.2, what do you think a mazda3 2.3 would cost? i have a focus 2.3 zts, 5 speed, power moonroof, heated seats, abs, a bunch more. 14.2 otd.

Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles