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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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Comments

  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "Camry V6 or S60"

    Camry all the way. Volvo is not really all that appealing. CXS? Ha! It doesn't matter what the Camry cost, they will be flying off dealers lots.

    As I previously said, I'm not much of a Toyota fan, but their cars do sell. In fact, there isn't an auto manufacturer on the face of the earth whose cars aren't on the road, just more so with Toyota and Honda.

    I'll take the old school Accord V6 anyday. At least it'll still be running at 200,000 miles.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    So will the GM. Shoot, my sister and I both managed to get 18 years almost 200K out of our 1987 and 1988 Buicks. My Mother's 2000(iirc) LeSabre with about 80K on it is bulletproof and has tons of luxury goodies on it. The engine is still perfect. The drivetrain is easily as durable as the stuff Toyota and Honda makes, so that's not really an issue.

    Buick also scores higher than most all of the imports in quality now. It's just hard to change the herd mentality away from the imports and also to take a look at GM. They no longer make the rubbish they did 5-10 years ago.

    The LaCrosse is a toad in every trim but the CXS, where it gets decent suspension and tires, plus the Cadillac engine tossed in as well. It drives so differently that GM should throw the other trims in the trash and only sell the CXS(same with the Lucerne - the CXS model is 100% a better car when you drive it than the other Lucernes)

    Me? You can keep your Camry. I've driven both and I know which one is better in city traffic and costs less to fix down the road($3500 transmission? That's crazy - I'll stick to the GM anyday. It's cheap as dirt to fix)
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "Me? You can keep your Camry. I've driven both and I know which one is better in city traffic and costs less to fix down the road($3500 transmission? That's crazy - I'll stick to the GM anyday. It's cheap as dirt to fix) "

    I guess I will with about 450K new Camry buyers this year.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    And many "money makers" drive mundane, inexpensive cars (like mid-sized family sedans for instance) because they know cars are a depreciating asset and would rather put their money into more productive assets--like 401Ks, real estate, and their kids (education).
  • jacknzonejacknzone Member Posts: 82
    Hi People ,Could anyone one help !Sorry it is the topic you are talk about.
    I am Trying to find a movie. All I can remember of the movie is the end of the movie when the car hits a train side on ( you think he has got away with it ),I think the car was a Dodge Charger , IT has been many years since i have seen the movie. But like to add to the car chase dvd I have got . Another scene i can remember is the car getting chase or something like that, in a orange grove. It was a great movie like Vanishing point , gone in 60 sec , Duel and many more. :D
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    There are some people who drive $50k cars, and their car is their most valuable asset. If having that car is important to them, so be it. Who are we to judge what others should spend their money on? To me a $20k car, or a $25k car, the difference doesn't make much of a difference in the grand scheme of things. So I will not buy a car I don't want, just to save a couple thousand dollars. I'm sure $5k means more to some people, but it will not amount to a hill of beans, in my life.
  • maple2maple2 Member Posts: 177
    can i borrow $5k :shades:
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    If you're not a family member it's 25% interest. :surprise:
  • rs_pettyrs_petty Member Posts: 423
    "Dirty Mary Crazy Larry" from 1974. Best quote of the movie was "My top speed is unlimited..." Google Peter Fonda for more details.
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    How exciting.
  • ron_mron_m Member Posts: 186
    9 times outta 10, when a guy tells you about his good income, he's lying. The money makers I know NEVER talk about it.

    You're exactly right! Of all the people I've ever met or known in my life that had big, big bucks, not a single one of them would ever mention money. Not even a hint of it. Now I have known some guys that owed a lot of money that went around bragging a lot about what all they had. The problem was that they were deeply in debt for all of their toys and McMansions.
  • savethelandsavetheland Member Posts: 671
    I have been at SF auto-show today. I was looking for next family sedan because my Sable Premium is 4 y.o. and became pretty dated design. It proved to be very reliable – did not have any problems and comfortable but still design goes back to 96 and it feels.

    Well here are my impressions. Because it is auto-show all impressions are about interior and exterior and execution.

    Let’s start with Camry – I was disappointed. On photos interior looks impressive but in real life it sucks. I did not like wide flat seats without lateral support – very uncomfortable feeling. In general interior looks and feels like a new model from Buick. I am 50 y.o. but still think I am not old enough to enjoy Camry.

    My hope was a new VW Passat. But I was disappointed again. First exterior looks like Asian car – there is nothing European or cool about its exterior. Secondly I could not find comfortable seating position. And interior has some kind Buicknish in it, it just do not look or feel cool as used to be in older Passat.

    Altima/Maxima – I do not like exterior – too ugly no style at all, I do not know who came up with these ideas. Interior is much improved but still I did not feel any desire to buy one of these.

    Saturn Aura: exterior look too Asian to me – I am not impressed. Interior looks kind of Asian too but design still is pretty good. What I did not like is some flimsiness of interior panels, like door panels or armrest. Audio/HVAC stacks on the steering wheel move – another indication of flimsiness of interior. And then – too much hard plastics – lower dash e.g.

    Chrysler Sebring – hmm, what did they mean? It looks as ugly in person as it looks on photos. Interior –to much hard plastic, center armrest is too high, overall has some cheap feeling cannot explain why. It does not look and feel like either Asian or European, may be it is a truly American design but execution might be better. May be in darker colors it will look better.

    So my choice so far is Mercury Milan. It is pretty impressive vehicle. I love exterior design – it stirs emotion, it is sweet and sexy in other word. Very European with some American touches. Interior also feels European and well executed. Soft plastic all around, supportive and comfortable seats, everything is solid - no flimsiness anywhere, soft green lightning – I do not like too dark colors like blue or too bright like red, and orange looks too cheap. But mostly no no-nonsense driver oriented tight cockpit.

    Lincoln MKZ – dash is too high and strange. Well some plastics are not for luxury car – certainly cost-cutting.

    BTW I liked new Lincoln Navigator interior. It is retro and cool at the same time - for truck it okay, but not for sedan. It also uses better materials and looks and feels more upscale than previous Navigator. I am not interested in SUVs, just found new Navigator interior coolest of the show.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I agree, people should buy what they want. I was judging no one. I was pointing out that many weathly people prefer to put their money into appreciating assets like 401Ks and real estate rather than depreciating assets like cars. Not a judgment, just a fact.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Did you look at the Accord, G6, Mazda6, Optima, or Sonata? Although you don't seem to like "Asian" styling, so you may not like most of those cars just on that basis.

    I like the Milan also; it's my favorite domestic mid-sized family car (although I haven't driven the Aura yet). Now that side bags and ABS are standard on the Milan, I think it's a nice package even in base form.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    I think that is part of why its so hard for me to get a car period. If I didn't pull the trigger a MazdaSpeed6 on the deals they were having (man what a car and what a deal), I'm just not gonna get something soon. I feel like I can keep the one I have going indefinitely by working on it when it needs it, and everytime I save up money to buy something, I feel guilty for not saving it or putting it a way or paying down more on the house or something. I look at what is out there in my price range and I decide its not enough of an improvement over what I have now, and I would rather do something else with the money.
    In full disclosure, we have one almost new family car that transports what is most important to me, but I keep hanging onto a 15 y/o car to go to work and back.
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    Live a little - buy a new ride. You deserve it. Its only money.

    The Mazda6 is a great vehicle. I say get it. Keep the 15 year old car as a beater.

    In full disclosue, I'm not a Madison Ave. ad guy but I play one on TV.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Everyone has their own priorities in life. I knew a guy who lived in an apartment, and barely made enough to pay the rent, and hardly had any left for spending money. The whole time he was driving his new expensive car though (5 series beemer), he felt like he was living the "good life". He was perfectly happy with his life (simple). My priorities would not have worked for him (way too complicated). I hope to have his level of satisfaction in my own life some day. I wonder where Mark Dyer is today?
  • savethelandsavetheland Member Posts: 671
    "Did you look at the Accord, G6, Mazda6, Optima, or Sonata?"

    Mazda6 is too small and stiff (I mean suspension) I am too old for this stuff. G6 has monochrome cabin with low quality details and some are flimsy and hard plastic. I like G6 exterior more than Aura, but interior feels too tight and cheap. And it is narrow and long what is not a good combination. I would prefer shorter and wider car.

    I like interior and gray lightning of Accord. But still it is too noisy and too commonplace. Exterior looks like typical poorly designed Asian car, i.e. no sexy or anything - rather ugly front. It is just practical car and I want something more unique and emotional not just practical. And According :) to journalists it is less sporty than Fusion/Milan.

    Anything Kia or Huydai I do not even consider. I actually sat it Sonata and it feels pretty cheap inside – but it is expected – it is a cheap car.

    Sexiest cars I saw at the show were Italian cars. And only Italian cars were Lamborgini and Maseratti. Man those are sweet but I cannot afford having one.
  • savethelandsavetheland Member Posts: 671
    Milan has an Italian name.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Reading through your posts, there is apparently nothing to your liking in this class of vehicle - everything from the Camry, to the Accord is too stodgy or commonplace, and you dismiss the Sonata simply because it is a Hyundai (Times are changing, my friend, and it is, in the REAL WORLD, a tremendous offering). Perhaps you need to rexamine your expectations. You're not going to find a Rolls Royce interior wrapped in the exotic look of an Italian sports car in the 22K Family Sedan market. Deal.

    ~alpha
  • jacknzonejacknzone Member Posts: 82
    Thanks rs_petty I be down at the DVD store tomorrow . I have been trying to find the name for months Thank you .
    Jack :D
  • w9cww9cw Member Posts: 888
    I think "savetheland" should up his budget and buy a Mercedes E-Class or a BMW 5-series. He's looking in the wrong market segment for the amenities he's expecting.

    Milan (Milano in Italian) is an Italian reference in name only, as everyone knows it's built on a Mazda 6 platform. That's like calling the late '80s and early '90s Daewoo-built Pontiac Le Mans a French car!!
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Actually the Milan couldn't be the Milano becuase Alfa Romeo already used that in their last pre-Chrysler sedan offering. IIRC the Alfa Romeo Milano Verde was a farily nice ride if you are okay with Italian ergonomics.
    I kind of agree, Savetheland. You might be happier in a slightly used premium or entry level lux/sport sedan. I am pretty sure I will be too.
    Since Pletko hasn't chimed in yet, you might want to look at the full sized "domestic" offerings if the size/comfort is more inline with what you are looking for. Apparently they aren't as expensive as previously thought.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I wouldn't even start to talk about money = cars. That's only from your point of view.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    "Ford can't seem to even put a decent shifter in it's great Fusion. D or L. That's it. Very weak.

    How about a hood that shuts all the way? The ones I checked out looked like the hood was ajar even when slammed shut.

    How is the "shifter" weak? It has a 6spd transmission??

    Hood shuts all the way??? what?? this makes no sense whatsoever.
    unrefined interior?? in your opinion or your perception..
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    How is the "shifter" weak? It has a 6spd transmission??

    Hood shuts all the way??? what?? this makes no sense whatsoever.
    unrefined interior?? in your opinion or your perception..



    I think he was pointing out that many other automatic transmission cars in the class has the boy-racer psuedo manu-matic shift mode where you can pretend your driving a manual.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "Ford can't seem to even put a decent shifter in it's great Fusion. D or L. That's it. Very weak."

    Talk about GM. Saw a Lucerne at a floor show. Buicks' have come a long way. It's a nice car from far away. But when you examine it up close, the hood and trunk didn't align with the body and as CR says there were a few more "sample defects".

    My guess would be if one examines a number or CamCords, the fit and finish would be beyond reproach.
  • w9cww9cw Member Posts: 888
    kdshapiro wrote: "My guess would be if one examines a number or CamCords, the fit and finish would be beyond reproach."

    This is certainly what one would expect, but not what I've observed in critically inspecting a number of Camrys, both the 2005 and 2006 model years, and the new generation 2007. In fact, several car mags have pointed out the flaws in the fit and finish of the Camry, especially the 2007.

    I almost bought a new 2005 Camry LE, but the rear doors weren't hung properly, as the seams didn't match up with the front doors', the inside of each front door's trim (near the driver's and passenger's side windows) was improperly aligned, as well as other little bits and pieces, including the front bumper cover not in alignment with the right-front fender (on several samples of 2005 Camrys). These all came out of the Georgetown, KY plant, and were brand new on the lot.

    The Camry may have had superlative build-quality, and fit and finish, but I've noted otherwise in scrutinizing the car lately. I think the production capacity drive is catching up with Toyota.

    The Accord, on the other hand, seems to have maintained it's excellent fit and finish.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "This is certainly what one would expect, but not what I've observed in critically inspecting a number of Camrys"

    I can't speak of seeing large scale defects in 2007 Camrys', but on the whole one can't help but notice the excellent build qualities on the car. On those I've seen, interior finish is beyond reproach, the body is completely aligned. Why can't GM do this? Even if there are issues reported with the car, I wouldn't hesitate for one second in getting a 2007 Camry. I know Toyota will address them.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    If he really wants to get al of that in a "family sedan", perhaps he needs to look at a couple of year old model instead. 22K will buy you almost anything you desire in the 2-5 year old range, up to and including some really nice high-end cars.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Actually 22k will buy a NEW Azera SE, which is a very nice car (despite being a Hyundai, folks :) ) that outclasses the Milan in a number of categories for the price, including performance, room, luxury, safety equipment (ESC and 8 airbags standard), warranty, and IMO styling. It doesn't look like a typical "Asian" car. It may actually look more like a Buick--but that may be a plus for this buyer.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Reading through your posts, there is apparently nothing to your liking in this class of vehicle

    Check again, he clearly likes the Milan.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Actually 22k will buy a NEW Azera SE

    Crash tests, not impressive (even with 8 airbags). Fuel economy, not good (less than 20mpg average). Looking like a Buick, not a plus for me (don't they have a minimum age of 55, to own this car? ;) ) I would rather buy a 3 year old Avalon.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Carsdirect.com is showing the '06 Azera SE no options at 23.1K in my zip (including the $1000) rebate. Where is the other $1100 coming from?

    jefferyscott - you are correct. that said, some of the criticisms logged against the other models are absurd. I'm not really sure how the Milan stirs emotion and the Fusion doesnt, they look the same to me, with different front fascias and taillamps. Inside, too.

    ~alpha
  • dump_truckdump_truck Member Posts: 42
    it would not be unusual, in fact i'd think probably even common, that the informed consumer would be able to get a better price than carsdirect. i know i beat carsdirect, and the edmunds tmv both by almost 1k. this is coming from a person who just bought my first ever car, with no haggling involved. so i'm sure someone exerpeienced and more skilled at this game could easily do better than i did.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Where is the other $1100 coming from?

    You'd have to ask the local dealers in my town advertising the Azera SE for under $22k. Maybe they are including the loyalty rebate and/or part of their holdback.
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Member Posts: 425
    So a couple weeks ago, got a largish coffee table in the back of my mazda6 hatchback, and on Black Friday found out that a 42 plasma fits quite comfortably in it's heavily padded box. It was pretty funny too, after showing the Best Buy loading person my receipt, he looked up at my car and asked, "You're putting it in there?!?" I popped open the hatch, flipped the switch that made the spring loaded seat fall forward, and asked what he thought. I overheard a couple other guys on the loading dock saying some nice things about the car and asking each other what model it was... nice feeling for me. then after we got it in with the hatch closed and room to spare, I heard these guys say, "Holy s**t! They got it in there!"

    Since it was raining, I was happy that I wasn't the guy in front of me who was trying unsuccesfully to get the same tv I got into the backseat of a 4-door pick up (probably so it didn't get wet). after throwing their shoulder into the tv box a couple times, they loaded the tv into the bed in the rain. Hope he didn't have far to go! I just had to laugh a bit knowing my "midsize sedan" was in this instance more useful than this guys pickup. SO glad I got this car instead of an SUV: much better handling, much safer because roll-over is much less likely with utility that fits the bill most of the time, and looks loads better imo.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Ditto.. coincidentally it was a 37" LCD from Best Buy in the back of my Prius along with golf clubs and assorted golf outerwear adn briefcase.

    Amazing these hatches.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,601
    Sounds like you can't find anything acceptable, other than the Milan or the mega bucks Italian cars.

    And those Asian cars, everbody knows they're junk. Don't test drive a Honda, Toyota, Hyundai or Kia becauce they are Asian cars.

    Go buy the Milan if that will make you happy. Nobody will hate you for it.
  • savethelandsavetheland Member Posts: 671
    >

    I am too old for cars like Fusion - it looks are more youth oriented . Milan though would be better if it had less chrome in the grill (or smaller grill) and more elegant design for radio and HVAC like in Mazda6.

    You are right about this segment being boring by design – it is challenging to find anything decent in this segment – but I need everyday reliable car for commuting and family. In the past there were intermediate brands up from cars for masses like Chevrolet but below luxury cars like Cadillac. I want something more exclusive than Ford, Toyota or Honda. Actually Honda is not that bad but they chose to go mass market and come up with ugly looking cars. May be they will do better with next Accord, but it is still will be everywhere - in every corner and parking lot. Real Honda should be Acura, but Acura is overpriced, at least for America. For Acura price you can buy nice RWD car.

    Alpha1, tell me you are joking about preferring Sonata. I mean if you want appliance it may be okay, but I am emotional about cars and gadgets. If Alfa in you nickname has anything to do with your car preferences I am very surprised that you may like something like Sonata or Camry.
  • savethelandsavetheland Member Posts: 671
    >

    You are what - Asian car lover? What all this rant supposed to mean? I do not care if you hate me or not.
  • tinatinatinatina Member Posts: 388
    In my local paper, one can get an Azera Limited for $23,995 plus TTL. MSRP is $27,395. There appears to be several rebates - military $500; loyalty $500; college grad; $400; and the $1,000 rebate. I would point out that this dealership tends to be on the high side. I saw a base Azera for below $20,000. I would recommend going to the dedicated pricing thread. One should be able to easily beat Carsdirect.com.

    With that said Avalons - 2007 are routinely discounted at $4,000 to $5,000 off of msrp, as are the brand new Lexus Es 350, which may interest the individual who attended the SF Autoshow. However, the midsize segment may just not appeal to you. Perhaps, look at the large car segment, or you need to look at an SUV. There was a good buzz for the CRV at the SF Autoshow when I attended last week.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,601
    Actually, I bought my first Asian car ever a year and a half ago; a 2005 Sonata. It has been a fantastic car. Before that, for 40 years, I have had "American" cars plus one "European" car.

    I think it is difficult to assign a "country/continent" look to most cars today. All manufacturers are dealing with the same physics in designing an efficient package of approximately the same size.

    For what it's worth, my '05 Sonata (previous gen.) has been mistaken in a parking lot for a Mercedes due to a similarity of headlights on occasion and many times has been mistaken for a Jaguar (3.0?) due to overall appearance, except the hood ornament. Does this similar appearance make the '05 Sonata look too "Asian" or too "European?"

    I don't care. I like the way it looks. And, so far, it has been a great car.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    "I'm not really sure how the Milan stirs emotion and the Fusion doesnt, they look the same to me, with different front fascias and taillamps. Inside, too."

    What?? Now your pushing it here. There is no way the Milan and Fusion look the same. The rear portions are completly different tailights and light shapes. Frontend is also very different. Fusion has the well known 3 bar chrome grill. And interior the same?? It goes to show you didn't even look at the pics right here at Edmunds of the interiors.. :blush:
  • savethelandsavetheland Member Posts: 671
    <<For what it's worth, my '05 Sonata (previous gen.) has been mistaken in a parking lot for a Mercedes due to a similarity of headlights on occasion and many times has been mistaken for a Jaguar (3.0?) due to overall appearance>>

    Well thats what I exactly mean by "Asian design". You probably did not notice irony in comparisions did you? Sorry to be harsh.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    Where is the Azera built? 23K!?? I am even surprised for so much car. Heck, I paid 23K for my Fusion SEL V6 loaded with all options.. The Azera has all kinds of goodies...
  • tinatinatinatina Member Posts: 388
    Still in Korea. It's a lot for the money as is the Sonata. I respect them for what they are doing. I have only purchased Honda Accords and Toyota trucks. I'm still impressed with my 2006 Accord's gas mileage (4 culinder auto)- 33 mpg in mostly freeway and 24.5 mpg in mostly city driving - coupled with the excellent resale value and solid powertrain.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    Out at a big Thanksgiving party last night. I was not part of the conversation. But overheard a woman talking about her Camry with a V6 and how is was almost too fast for her taste. She loved the car but the MPG was killing her.. Wondering how others are doing with thier V6 Camry?
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Something to consider for shoppers torn between V6 and I-4 models:

    I drove to the beach today (where I am NOW, yee haw!), set the cruise control on 70 and didn't touch it. I didn't stop, and had NO traffic or A/C use. I was the only one in the car, and my RPMs were at 2,300 or so at that speed.

    I drove 256.3 miles on 6.246 gallons of regular. If you do the math, that's 41.03 MPGs!!!

    I drive a 2006 Accord EX, Auto, 4-cylinder, which clicked to 14,000 miles on the way here.

    I know many will be skeptical; heck, I was too. I even went back and added gas little by little until it was almost splashing out, so I know it is full.

    I absolutely LOVE this car! I drove 256 miles for $13.72!
  • ontopontop Member Posts: 279
    I drove 256 miles for $13.72!

    Wow. Calculated it down to the penny.

    Would you have been disappointed if it cost you 8 cents more?
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