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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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Comments

  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    and yep this whole governmental/IIHS exercise in PC and overreaction really started with some poorly designed SUVs with crappy tires!

    Here yes this is the impetus for the across the board implementation. However in europe it had already been in effect in high end vehicles and even as long as two years ago EURO/NCAP had been recommending that no consumer should buy a vehicle without ESC.

    If it really does cut down one vehicle accidents by 50% as the IIHS indicates then that's a good thing.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    MUSTANG! ohhh.... yeah.... I have a neighbor that has an 06 Black Mustang GT. He only drives it during the nice days. He had Gold racing stripes painted on the car. Larger custom wheels/tires. Wheels are chrome/gold mix and they look goooooood. Tinted windows, spoiler. He has a K&N air system and a custom exhaust. You can see this car coming from 3 blocks! Would I take it over a Porsche?? Hell yes!
  • exshomanexshoman Member Posts: 109
    Hey don't get me wrong, I use seatbelts all the time. Growing up, we never did.

    I think the phenomenon that was in the article is probably smaller than what they think it is. However, I too would probably drive a lot more conservatively if I had a spear in the middle of my steering wheel ;-)

    It would however explain some of the boorish behavior you sometimes see with folks in the huge trucks/suvs/vans (disclaimer - I own a full size conversion van). Some think that they are invincible with all that sheetmetal around them.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    A tornado hit 50 or 60 miles southwest of Birmingham, without a Tornado warning. People trapped in homes, tress down, boats thrown around. Storm headed my way, so I'm out for the night I think. Pray for the people who had no warning, but now a warning has been issued. All local news have gone to continuous weather coverage now.

    Have a safe night!

    thegrad
  • ontopontop Member Posts: 279
    Grad - no need to have to defend Honda vs. Ford against Fordboy. Ford cars are no competition to Honda. Anyone can say the Fusion is as good as a Camcord, but the marketplace certainly doesn't. That's why a Fusion will always be priced less than a Camcord. Until Fusion can post years and years of impressive sales figures and millions of satisfied customers, they'll always be in the second row.

    It'll certainly be harder for Ford to post years of big sales figures when they shed 50% of their workforce. Ouch.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,601
    despite the perceived (incorrect) perceptions

    I'm surprised you didn't pick up on the redundancy of that statement which made the statement meaningless.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,601
    Just saw your post #9518.

    Good luck to you and family and let's hope the people who had no warning are all OK.
  • harrycheztharrychezt Member Posts: 405
    I agree. Hope all is well! Here in the Midwest, we got hit (in Ohio) with 4 hour flash flooding(still nasty) and over in Indiana and Illinois, snowstorm of 6-12 inches of snow(and 35-50MPH winds tomorrow)...
    Keep safe.

    Now, about mid-sized sedans. Since this thread started in April(05 or 06? I forget).... we have had the new Sebring(like it or not) and new Optima( not bad).

    Have test driven both, and like both.
    But, if I had to choose, I might pick the Optima(07) over the Sebring.
    Sebring seems to be about 1000-1,500 over priced. I noticed that the price was advertised 3 weeks ago as 18,995 for a base sedan, and it is now down to 18,329! Also, chrysler sent me a $1,000 Cash Back coupon for 07 (and any unsold 06 model cars, new). Now, if they would just lower the price 1,000 to begin with, and sell it for 17,329 (every day), they might get somewhere.

    Considering you can get a Manual (5 speed)Optima(a rarity in this class, isn't it?), for less than 17K.....and after arguing, bargaining, get a decent auto-manual I-4 for maybe same price as Sebring on sale...
    (I like the auto-manual).

    Anyhow.... pretty soon, the new Malibu will debut, early in 08(?). If the interior shots recently posted on the net are any indication... it may be a good buy.
    take care/not offense.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    It'll certainly be harder for Ford to post years of big sales figures when they shed 50% of their workforce. Ouch.

    Oh it WILL, huh? Got any facts or figues that prove this? Didn't think so...

    Ford is doing the right thing offering buyouts to their (admittedly) excessive workforce. They've realized that they don't have as much of the market as they used to, so they're doing what they can to adjust, and become profitable again. It may take up to 2009 (by some estimates), but who knows? It just might actually work...

    "Big sales figures" aren't achieved by 3-shift factories puking out 1 million cars per year that are garbage, they're achieved by QUALITY product, as proven by Honda and Toyota. Their quality has come from heavy investments into R&D, money that was wasted by the Big Three for years in below-capacity factories, with workers (both blue- and white-collared) that were paid big $$$ to do next to nothing, with insurance and pension plans that drained even more $$$.

    Buyouts to baby-boomers (and others) make sense, both to Ford and the workers that can benefit from this. Will it help Ford to become profitable again? I don't know, you don't know, nobody does...
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    It'll certainly be harder for Ford to post years of big sales figures when they shed 50% of their workforce.

    Ford doesn't want or need big sales figures. Market share is worthless if it's not profitable. That's why you're seeing the Fusion and Edge with modest sales goals, modest production numbers and low or no incentives. The goal is profit and being able to shed the costs for those workers that took the buyout (a lot may change their minds so the final number will be less) and close plants/shifts that aren't needed is one thing that will help Ford weather this storm.

    And Ford has already stated it will start adding features and upgrades instead of cutting costs and decontenting like it did in the past. One sign of that is the Edge offering Navigation and the Vista Roof which, in the past, would have been exclusive to Lincoln.

    The Fusion debuted in 06, added AWD in 07, scheduled for a hybrid in 08 and a platform refresh in 09 which should include an upgraded interior, powertrain and more features. They're not letting cars die on the vine anymore.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Speedometer readout from leftover 1980's Timex alarm clocks and two tier dash is example of poor design IMO. Booo....hisss..to the Civic. I thought this example of digital design disaster died in the 1980s with the K-Car as manufacturers returned to traditional, simple and legible gauges.
    Horizon displays have a lot of legibility benefits, especially for older drivers. That large numeral for the speed and its position further from the driver reduces accommodation effects while providing a lot of the advantages of a much more expensive head up display (HUD). The Prius uses similar technology.
    I personally thought the prev. Civic cluster was hard to read with minimal markings for speed (every 20 mph) and limited number of markings in between. If 70% of the time the car is between 0-50 mph, you might as well make it easy to read at those speeds.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    That article has so many logical flaws that I could write an article about it. There is not enough information in there to draw the conclusions claimed. Score one for attention grabbing pop-science.
  • w9cww9cw Member Posts: 888
    Unfortunately, it's not the case in our area within a 100 mile radius. The best price I've found on an Accord SE with the Inline-4 is $20,288. This is not a bad price, but not in the ball park of the heavily discounted Accords, especially the V6's as posted by thegraduate.

    Our dealer is very smug when it comes to negotiating - it's essentially take it or leave it, as he says: "Someone else will buy the car if you don't."
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I priced the Sonata and no way can you get a loaded Sonata for $18K...

    Not sure what you consider loaded, but buyers have reported offers on the top-line Sonata Limited around $18.5k in the Sonata Prices Paid discussion. Go check it out if you don't believe me.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    have no doubt that single vehicle accidents will be reduced by a bunch - that 'dumbfootedness' comment I made in an earlier post - and as you suggest a good thing. But, it is still beyond me why many folks will expound on these 'safety systems' when they don't understand how they actually work. Have a real problem with those that would contend that ESC is a 'most important' safety feature - that honor should be reserved for a good set of brakes and/or a dynamically balanced good handling car or even seat belts - NOT for some guy deciding what I am or am not capable of doing in my own car.
    If I was still driving on snow covered roads, the first thing I would want to do is shut something like VSC/TRAC off, an option that many cars do not have. And if you do have to do that a lot, you should understand why!
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    There is a compelling video on one of the Subaru (edmunds) boards that shows what ESC/VDC vs no ESC/VDC can do in slow wet emergency maneuvers using different cars. I don't know if I can find it, but if I do I'll post the link. It is an eye-opener.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    there are very compelling videos also available touting the effectiveness of ABS - which BTW does not reduce stopping distances (only allows you to maintain control while effectively lengthening stopping distances) and I have no doubt that circumstances can be easily contrived to illustrate VSC effectiveness - just as I can contrive specific circumstances that might just cost me my lunch just like the one that did happen to me!
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Real-world braking tests in CR clearly show that ABS shortens both wet and dry stopping distances.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    If you don't want to understand I'm not trying to convert, just enlighten. When you see one car do a 360 without a VDC and another car just continue on it's way as if nothing happened you have to stop and think, that maybe that one time this thing might make all of the difference in the world.
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    Nice try with the spin, but a 100 year automobile company that is shrinking in an environment where the global market is exploding and the potential for huge sales numbers down the road is huge - is BAD NEWS!

    This is a major league cluster when the rest of the world is going all out to capture the millions of new car buyers coming down the pipe. China, India, Latin America, Brazil, in addition to North America are all BOOMING!

    Hyundai, VW, Honda, Toyota, BMW - all jamming.

    Ford, Mitsubishi, Volvo, Jaguar, Isuzu - not.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    backy - then maybe you have an explanation as to why that is - shortening stopping distances by releasing the brakes doesn't seem to make sense does it? Maintaining vehicle control because the wheels are not locked, however, does.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Maybe because the vehicle isn't sliding along the pavement, wheels locked, but actually stopping?

    Or maybe CR faked the tests because they want people to buy cars with ABS. :surprise:
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    read something that Ford is trying to sell its PAG (Premium Automotive Group) which includes Jaguar, Aston Martin, and Land Rover - Jaguar apparently being the lead weight that nobody wants. Volvo may also be included. If this all happens and apparently the Koreans have been taking a look at it, what do you think happens with what used to be the #2 automaker in the world? a nonfactor perhaps?
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    Spin? I don't think so, considering I wasn't talking about the GLOBAL market, only the U.S. market, where yes, they have been losing ground, and yes, 38,000 hourly U.S. workers took the buyout. The global market expanding has NOTHING to do with the fact that Ford is shrinking in the U.S. market.

    If Ford wants to compete globally, they'll build plants out of the US, where labor is cheap, for markets out of the U.S. Besides, Ford of Europe is actually doing very well, from what I've heard.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    backy - then maybe you have an explanation as to why that is - shortening stopping distances by releasing the brakes doesn't seem to make sense does it?

    When you skid you melt rubber off the tire. Melted rubber is a liquid. The coefficient of kinetic friction (dry pavement) is .8, the coefficient of kinetic friction (wet pavement) is .7 in good condition, .4 in a more worn condition.
    Friction of Various Surfaces
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    don't confuse a distance test with the ability to keep a car in a lane - CR is certainly going to champion anything that is a perceived safety feature - that is their bias. Once you define a measurable distance as one that must be contained within a set of lane markers (which is logical) and you also understand that no human in the world can possibly pump a set of brakes as fast as ABS can, there is no contest. And no, haven't seen the CR tests you are talking about, just guessing what 'rules' they might have adopted to come up with the PC result.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    The "rules" are simple. They often test different versions of a car. For example, in a recent test of small cars, they tested some with and some w/o ABS. The models with ABS in every case stopped shorter--meaning less distance--on both dry and wet roads.

    Since you didn't read CR's tests, how can you say the test was biased or make any kind of informed guess as to what rules they may have applied?
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    My understanding is shortest stopping distance would occur by applying the brakes enough to be just on the verge of skidding without actually skidding. ABS can come closer to approximating this than you can, so it will stop the car in shorter distances.

    stopping on snow or ice may be an exception to this is, where abs may lengthen stopping distance.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    If I was still driving on snow covered roads, the first thing I would want to do is shut something like VSC/TRAC off

    Why? My wife's car has ESP (VW version of ESC). The only time you would turn it off would be if you want wheels to spin to help get through very deep snow. In normal snowy road conditions you should want it on as it will help maintain control.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    You do understand that most small cars come with rear drum brakes in the non-ABS models whereas the ABS models are 4 wheel discs - right?

    The only fair test is to use a car where the ABS can be turned off and on.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    The Yaris has drums in the rear for both ABS and non-ABS cars--it was one of those tested by CR in both configurations. The Versa has drums in the rear for both ABS and non-ABS cars--it was one of those tested by CR in both configurations. The Rio has discs all around for both ABS and non-ABS cars--it was one of those tested by CR in both configurations. The results were the same in each case: non-ABS stopping distances were longer in both wet and dry conditions.

    Do you know any cars on which ABS can be turned on and off? I don't.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,147
    >Real-world braking tests in CR

    Bad news. To me and some others CR is not the end of automotive knowledge. They have biases and prejudices and that's from their original green (environmentally friendly) goals they have always tried to portray.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I wasn't implying you could buy one with an ABS on/off switch - only the mfrs test cars do that. The point was you don't know if everthing else is the same with or without ABS unless both tests are done on the same vehicle with ABS turned off and on.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    learned to drive in the NE area and remember well the importance of maintaining momentum to get thru plow banks and/or get up hills. Acquiring momentum sometimes at points having traction or control by any reasonable definition, and that any decent ESC system would rightfully interfere. Or even simply getting stuck, that time honored tradition of spinning your drive wheels back and forth effectively 'rocking' yourself to get unstuck - something that traction control would stop you from doing.
    But you are right that driving along and then hiiting a patch of ice or something, ESC will stop you at that point from doing anything that would lose control, if it is possible.
    Did it ever occur to you, what your ESP equipped car would or would not do if that pickup in front of you on the hwy. lost a ladder or something and you had to swerve violently to avoid it? Or that idiot that just ran a light is about to braodside you and what you really need to do is accelerate HARD while swerving away from him? I just don't think that we are quite ready yet to be trying to program 'intelligence' in our cars.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    as opposed to a coefficient of friction of 0 when the brakes aren't on at all, courtesy of ABS?
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    HUD's and digital speedometers were predicted to increase eyes-on-the-road time and decrease re-accomodation time.
    Research has shown this to be false.
    HUD's distract and remove a drivers focus from the road to a greater degree than digital speedometers do, however, it is analog speedometer and gauges that were determined to be the superior format. They convey a greater amount of information to the driver and require less eyes-off-the-road time.
    Digital speedometers were found to be more effective in decreasing speeding. The negative side effect was drivers were more likely to miss important safety information outside of the vehicle.

    HUD's are effective in aircraft, HUD's and any legibility offered by large digital numerals have shown no benefit in autos and are a driver distraction.

    Horizon displays have a lot of legibility benefits, especially for older drivers. That large numeral for the speed and its position further from the driver reduces accommodation effects while providing a lot of the advantages of a much more expensive head up display (HUD). The Prius uses similar technology.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    HUD's and digital speedometers were predicted to increase eyes-on-the-road time and decrease re-accomodation time.

    Why did you lump HUDs and digital speedometers together? I didn't see a mention of horizon displays at all.

    Research has shown this to be false.
    Please feel free to pass along any sources. Right now this is considered opinion.

    HUD's distract and remove a drivers focus from the road to a greater degree than digital speedometers do, however, it is analog speedometer and gauges that were determined to be the superior format.

    A HUD is not the same as a horizon display. Cognitive capture can be more of an issue with HUD, which is why it is used more for warnings, or times you want to grab attention.

    They convey a greater amount of information to the driver and require less eyes-off-the-road time.

    They convey rate of change information, but again, this is dependent on gauge layout. The original study was performed using clusters very different than what is available today (think '70s GM/Ford cars), if you have newer sources, I'd love to see them.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Did it ever occur to you, what your ESP equipped car would or would not do if that pickup in front of you on the hwy. lost a ladder or something and you had to swerve violently to avoid it?

    Uh, yeah...I expect that, if necessary, it would prevent understeer by applying inside rear brake or if needed to prevent oversteer it would apply the outside front brake. Applying braking to single wheels INCREASES the capabilities of the car.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    think acutally the 80's, my son had a 89 Probe, the digital gauges an egronomic nightmare and almost impossible to read in daylight.
    Not exactly dead, however, these heads up projected displays in things like Caddies really distracting, IMO.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Review R. Keifers research. Digital vs. analog has been studied in the context of HUD's, hence my inclusion.
    Yes, location is very important, however, horizon displays are also distracting since they are in the field of "automatic selection". They are IMO better used for warning displays, not constant information such as speed.
    The time period of the research is from the 90's to current time.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    the Sonata, and I did drive the car relatively hard both with ESC on and off. While I thought the intervention threshold was reasonable for a normal driver's capabilities, the difference between what the car will do in each mode is somewhat startling. Hyundai should be applauded for understanding that there are times that an owner of one of their cars may not want the system...
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    image

    or

    image

    Kind of like saying diesels suck because someone had a 70s Delta 88.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    I agree that HUD is better suited for time sensitive information where cognitive capture is a positive attribute (turn by turn navigation, collision warnings, exceeding a parameter like speeding or something).
    I disagree however, that horizon displays have the same cognitive capture attributes, I haven't seen any reports stating that yet. What I have seen appeared to be suggesting that they help driving performance as drivers age (read: old people can still see how fast they are going even when using glasses for distance, and reduced accommodation effects).
    Its also interesting that you mention Keifer's research as it seems like he is a proponent of HUD.
    I am curious, how do you feel about center mounted displays like the Scion and Mini?
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Ran across a Bosch video...they use your very scenario (substituting a box for the ladder) to promote the capabilities of ESC.

    Look for The falling box
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Very informative, thanks for posting that.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    uh, yeah - and it might just slow your throttle and steering responses as well!
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    About this topic, the uninformed will never get it. You have to actually see it in action to believe it. That said, I do believe it's an important safety device. It can make a difference, but those who do not know will not get it. I have to dig up the link from the Subaru board, but I'm afraid it's like looking for a needle in a haystack.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    In this situation of heavy snow and trying to plow yourself out of a sudden storm would not set off the ESC in anyway. It would make the Trac Ctl go off so there's reason to possibly disable the Trac.

    In the recent Prius changes of last Dec we were told that in such a slippery situation now Toyota allows the wheels to spin - a little - so that the vehicle just doesn't go dead. It would be interesting to see if this modification to Trac is now across the board in all new models.

    ESC will only kick in when the yaw sensors detect that the vehicle is going offline from the intended steering direction.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    uh, yeah - and it might just slow your throttle and steering responses as well!

    This will only happen if you are out of control and skidding/plowing. If you are in control then ESC remains in the background.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Our dealer is very smug when it comes to negotiating - it's essentially take it or leave it, as he says: "Someone else will buy the car if you don't."

    I hate to hear that. How many dealers are within, say 50 miles of where you live (or of that dealer)? Where I live (suburban community of Birmingham) there are at least 4 dealers that I can name off; this competition undoubtedly helps us get better deals.

    As is true of a lot of things, when it comes to buying cars, what becomes important is "location, location, location."
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