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Acura TL 2006+

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Comments

  • dalls223dalls223 Posts: 41
    merc1,

    Sorry about the misinformation about the output of the S350's engine. You are right. It is the 241hp SOHC, not the 268hp DOHC. Wow, that car must be brutally slow. I sometimes get myself into trouble when I think about the model numbers for companies like Mercedes. It is easy just to think that every 240, 320, 350, 500, 600, is the same engine for all classes. They will throw a curve ball every now and then. I usually check my information when I am sourcing comparisons. It hadn't been ingrained into my memory because I had only been to mbusa.com once since the release of the S350. I was shocked to see that Mercedes was coming back with a V6 in their S-Class. Thanks for the correction though.

    However, I am not comparing the RL to the S-Class, or other luxury models like it. I would like to if it were: a) a few inches longer in body size, b) filled with most of the super large sedan's optional features as standard (an Acura habit). That saves $10-20K off the sticker price right there. My initial post on this topic was aimed at getting Acura to realize that it could compete with cars in this segment with the right approach. They probably don't want to compete with it though, as you were dancing around with in your three sedan comparison amongst car companies. They really don't have to stack up to everyone else's three sedan offerings because Acura is successful selling a ton of cars and racking up the automotive awards by selling cars of immense value.

    I think that they would be even more successful if they used the RL in their next redesign as a car that could compete with S-Class-like models, and henceforth the TL with E-Class-like models, and the TSX with C-Class-like models. Yes they need to incorporate a V8, but this would increase their image in the luxury automotive industry. They could never compete with the engines from Mercedes, BMW, and Audi, because it would be a cold day in hell before Acura releases a V12. They are losing out on the buyers that want the tricked out lux sedan, like your Lexus LS and your Infiniti Q for their Japanese competitors. Let's not forget that Acura was the 1st Japanese luxury car company. I feel like it would be justice if they were able to offer customers the option of buying a super large lux sedan from Acura. Given the fact that redesigns across models vary quite a bit, maybe the most logical move is to just create an entirely new model all of its own. We'll call it a ZL. :shades:
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I understand what you're saying, but just enlarging the RL isn't going to cut it for the RL to compete with the S/7/LS type of car. I fully expect the next generation LSxxx to move out of the 56K starting range to about 60K+. For Acura to compete here not only would they need a V8, they'd need a whole new platform. Honda just isn't going to do that for what they see as such a low-volume segment. They already have trouble keeping the RL current. All of the RL's competitors, especially the German ones will be redesigned before Acura does a new RL. The previous car went 9 years! This is basically the same reason why the NSX has been neglected for over a decade.

    I think the current RL is a fine car, but at 50K I think it’s a tough sell for two types of buyers 1) a person looking at a M35, and 2) a person that says "for 50K you might as well get a Lexus, BMW or whatever". The current RL would be a much better buy at 45K than 50K, all IMO of course. This RL I predict will drop off in sales just like the last one did as the segment continues to evolve and outpace it.

    True, Acura was the first Japanese luxury brand, but Honda isn't enough to take on Toyota's Lexus and now Nissan's Infiniti when it comes to their upper range cars. I too always said that Acura should compete at a higher level, but as you point out they're doing just fine by specializing entry-level luxury/sport sedans while not truly offering a full-on luxury car like an S-Class or LS430.

    There was a thread hear about Acura's "dilemma", but I'm not sure even they even have one because we all were assuming they want to compete with MB,Lexus and BMW at the high end, but I don't think they do.

    M
  • frisconickfrisconick Posts: 1,275
    Here in the SF Bay Area, Acura dealers are telling me that the RL is not selling very good because it looks so much like an Accord. The TL, on the other hand, is selling great ever since the redisign in 2004.
  • billyperksbillyperks Posts: 449
    The TL always sells well even before the re-desing, the 1st and 2nd generation TL were always great sellers- Its Acura's bread and butter.
  • frisconickfrisconick Posts: 1,275
    I wish the TL had a light metallic blue, I think it would look fantastic.
  • tmaxxtmaxx Posts: 4
    I would trade my TL for an 06 with SHAWD in a second, the only catch would be that the premium would have to be resonable. I believe the G35 is around $1800 more. That's a very resonable upgrade.
  • fdcapt2fdcapt2 Posts: 122
    I came here to see if anyone had some input on the new TL. All I got was a bunch of crap about who has the best 0-60 times. I really wish that people would stay on the topic, considering the fact that this forum was about any news on what we can expect, or what we might like to see in the next model year. I got nothing from the past bunch of posts except finding out that people are more interested in times, and not what we'd like to see in the new cars.
  • bodble2bodble2 Posts: 4,519
    Yup, I agree. For me, if the price premium is around $2500 CDN, then I would think seriously about it. That's pretty well in line with your figure of $1800 USD.

    Because if it is significantly more, then I'm thinking....BMW X3, or the upcoming 330xi?
  • dalls223dalls223 Posts: 41
    Hey fdcapt2, let me ask you this. What classification is the Acura TL? *SPORT SEDAN* How the TL becomes more fun to drive is quite relevant here, and I think I speak for most of us. I clearly stated what I'd like to see in the 06 TL;more fricken power. 0-60 times are perhaps the greatest measuring stick as to what we are talking about here, PERFORMANCE... That is why we are even talking about SH-AWD, because it would improve the handling, which is directly related to PERFORMANCE. It is no secret that the current TL has fallen behind its main competitor, the G35. I am sick and tired of hearing people talking about how people who buy the G35 want more sportiness, and the people who buy TL's want more luxury. If Acura can address the lack of umph to the competition then they might be able to claim both of those categories. I have already addressed the history of how Acura was ahead all sub-$40K sport sedans in the area of PERFORMANCE a few years ago. I have seen it change before my very eyes, with the likes of the G35 from Infiniti, which now offers 298hp, and Chrysler with their 300 Hemi-C, which churns out 340hp, even though it weighs over two tons. I don't know if that is even more embarrassing. A 4100 pound tank can out hustle a TL. Let's face it, both of these cars have the TL's number on the street, where PERFORMANCE counts. And what's worse? Infiniti's cheap cousin, the Infiniti SE-R can outscoot a TL. This has to change. So let's see Acura in 2006 address the PERFORMANCE issue, because it wasn't addressed well enough in 2004 when they redesigned it. Ten horsepower and six ft/lbs. I don't care what anyone says about their performance numbers for the newer TL. It is only a few tenths of a second faster than the last generation TL, A-Spec or not. The Germans don't mess around when they do a remodel. Look at the upcoming M5. They are going to increase the previous 394hp V8 with a 500hp V10. That's a 106hp increase, which is a manly increase of steroid like proportions (baseball crack). I know this is an extreme example, and I know we are not comparing the same things here, but at least it shows that when BMW is under the PERFORMANCE gun by their competitors, they come right back shooting. So when I talk 0-60 times, believe me, it is very PERFORMANCE related, and it is something that everyone in this discussion should be somewhat concerned with when Acura goes to the drawing board for the 06 TL model.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Very passionate post. I think you're going to be let down if you expect Acura to increase power on the TL for 2006. If anything they'll add the SH-AWD as an option and maybe 10hp or so, but I don't think ever let the TL outpower the RL again. Think about it, if the TL has the same awd system and 300+ hp, there is no point in buying an RL. The TL in its current form is very competitive with the G35 and 330i, at least in a straight line.

    I don't think Acura cares if a 300C or Sentra SE-R V-Spec is faster because neither of those cars in quite in the same category. Acura probably regards the 300C is a American pig type car.

    M
  • frisconickfrisconick Posts: 1,275
    According to Consumer Reports and Car and Driver, the TL is faster than Most BMWs and faster than the V8 300 hp Mustang. The only BMWs that are faster are the M class, and they cost thousands more than the TL. This car is seriously quick and has more horse power than is legally needed. :shades:
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    The TL faster than the Mustang GT? Not by anything I've ever seen. The new 330i is just as fast with much less power from the tests I've seen so far. Consumer reports is the last place I'd look for performance testing.

    M
  • tawneycattawneycat Posts: 114
    06 TL will get some new colors
    06 TL will get VCM
    06 TL will have revised front and rear styling
    06 TL will have 8 way pass seat and lowering passenger rear view mirror
    06 TL will have No Bridgestone tires
    06 TL will have lighted turn signals like TSX

    All guesses, remember the 2001 to 2002 change. It was significant and the 2001 buyers were left holding an old car. I hope the 05 to 06 change is not that noticable!!
  • irnmdnirnmdn Posts: 240
    TL is great value around $35 loaded. I suspect Acura management was smoking pot when they priced RL $15k more for just adding AWD,30HP and some gizmos.
    $40-$42k is what RL should be listed for.
  • bhelsdonbhelsdon Posts: 134
    Dalls223 makes me look like a grandma. I am a 28 year old man that loves to drive fast and I think the car has plenty of HP. IMO the Current TL is the perfect blend of luxury and sport. If horsepower is all your interested in then go buy a Mustang GT or a pontiac GTO and save a few thousand dollars. I personally think that 6 seconds to 60 and 30mpg in the same car is an awsome accomplishment.
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Posts: 2,606
    Gotta agree, bheldson. What is the hang-up with 270 vs 298 hp? The TL is a VERY quick car. From what I've read as quick as G35 and BMW 330. I guess you and I don't drag race every Sunday at Raceway Park! Gee, the Hemi C has 340hp! I guess the TL should leapfrog that to 400hp (and 12mpg)...

    You can buy more HP elsewhere, but I bought "the whole package" that the TL represents including power, luxury and hopefully reliability.

    '13 Jaguar XF, '11 BMW 535xi, '02 Lexus RX300

  • bodble2bodble2 Posts: 4,519
    It'd be OK by me if Acura doesn't add another 1 hp to the TL for the rest of its life cycle. I'd rather them spend the R & D dollars on refining the car wherever it's needed.
  • dalls223dalls223 Posts: 41
    No, you are absolutely right bhelsdon. Good point on the well roundedness of the TL. It mixes all of the elements better than any other car on earth, or so it has been said. In baseball they refer to such a player as a "five tool player." (if they hit for high average, have power with the bat, play defense well, possess running speed, and have a strong throwing arm) When I tell people that my 02 TL-S gets 30 MPG highway, I see their jaws hit the ground. It comes as a surprise to most that a car could have very high levels of sport, luxury, economy, and resale value. Hence a "four tool car." Of course the fourth tool comes because of the generous blend of the previous three.

    However, I am a greedy SOB. I don't want to make you feel like a grandma bhelsdon, but I always want more of everything, especially power. Maybe that is the youth talking though. I am 26 years old myself. However, I would like to see the luxury and the economy improve as well. I don't want a Mustang GT or a Pontiac GTO, because they are deficient in the areas of luxury and economy, even though they have better performance. I don't want to trade off two tools for the improvement in one tool, the engine. The TL may not be deficient in any one area, but it can still be improved.

    One of the ways that Acura can achieve better performance, while still enhancing fuel economy, is to take a hybrid approach to things. We will start to see more of this technology coming in the next five years or so for all vehicles. Lexus has already started moving very aggressively in this area. The new Lexus RX400h that is already on the market is using hybrid technology, as well as the new GS450h coming in spring of 2007, and the 2007 redesigned LS, called the LS600h.

    Get the performance numbers up as well as the fuel economy. Sounds like a good strategy to me. If we put a few more bells and whistles in the TL then that's icing on the "top sport sedan under $40K" cake. Even though, if Acura decided to go the route of hybrid for the TL, then the price would probably near, and possibly exceed $40K. I wonder when we will see this for the TL. They just gave the Accord a hybrid enhanced model. How far will it spread, and what will this mean for the future of not just Acura vehicles, but all vehicles?
  • dalls223dalls223 Posts: 41
    MORE POWER! MORE POWER! MORE POWER! I am sounding like Tim "the toolman" Taylor. No seriously, I too would like to see more technology inside of the TL, and the RL for that matter. There is so much out there, with the DVD players in virtually every imaginable place. Ventilated seats are starting to become more and more popular. MP3's are everywhere too. I wouldn't even mind if they used better quality leather, like Alcantara, or Montana leather, that is so rich and soft. Rear view cameras are another advancement that is probably going to take the place of rear parktronic eventually. Just some ideas. I am sure that I am forgetting a few.

    As a final note, we should be proud of what Acura has done in the creativity department. Four such FIRST TIME applications in any car: DVD Audio Player with Surround Sound, Bluetooth technology, Sun Sensors for climate control, and last but not least the Realtime Traffic Data. Pretty cool stuff. Now get the other stuff. There I go being greedy again. :P
  • dalls223dalls223 Posts: 41
    You just mentioned a fifth tool that I forgot to mention, reliability. Honda and Toyota are the kings of the world in this regard. You take it for granted when you drive a TL. That is why I forgot to mention it. Problems. What are those? Oh shoot. Don't want to jinx myself.

    400hp TL. Now that would be just ridiculous. Maybe with the introduction of a hybrid engine it could happen, and get 20-25MPG. Yeah, and be the most street illegal thing you have ever seen.
  • dalls223dalls223 Posts: 41
    Well this all goes back to my post a few days ago. They made the new RL too short. Actually, when I bought my 2002 TL-S, I was amazed at how little extra legroom there was in the 2002 RL when I sat in one in the showroom. Because of its closeness in size (a mere 4" difference in body length) Acura has either once again set the RL up to fail, or is planning on restricting the enhancements to the TL as to preserve the value of the RL. Someone made a comment the other day about the styling flaws of the RL, when they said that consumers think that it looks too much like an Accord. Well maybe that is because it is barely larger than an Accord.

    Here is the one drawback about AWD being optional for the 2006 TL. Just with the addition of the AWD system, that will add weight, and therefore decrease performance. Of course you would have a car that could zip through the turns, but the off the line acceleration wouldn't be the same. So the hp/torque numbers must be adjusted upward too offset the added weight. It might scare away some enthusiasts if you told them that their car wasn't going to be as ferocious as its predecessor. BMW and Mercedes offer the AWD for their smaller models and notice the same 0.5 second or greater drop in their 0-60 runs. The only difference with them is that they offer RWD, which is way better against torque steer than FWD. BMW and Mercedes use their AWD models as a way of holding the road 365 days a year. With Acura being very basic in its offerings (i.e.-2005 RL SH-AWD only) it may only offer SH-AWD for the TL, with no option for FWD. I have not been convinced otherwise.

    So the AWD being more for the enthusiast is not as big of a deal because RWD offers handling that is considered in some ways as better than AWD, especially on dry roads. That is where Acura has to look at the big picture and not offer a slower AWD version of it's current TL. It needs the AWD to be more composed on the turns, but it doesn't need a performance slip as a result of it. In a way AWD is to Acura, as RWD is to Mercedes. It would be their sportiest offering. Also 10hp, like before with the 2004 redesign, will not make that much of a difference. The G35 sedan went from 260 to 298 horsepower, which is a gain of 38. Even 290 hp might be enough for the TL to pull off the SH-AWD magic, and gain a performance advantage over the 04-05 TL's. And they could do this without infuriating new or "to be" RL owners.

    Hey merc1. If a 300C is an American pig type car, then what is that new SRT-8 300C considered? That is big time hogville.
  • irnmdnirnmdn Posts: 240
    You just mentioned a fifth tool that I forgot to mention, reliability. Honda and Toyota are the kings of the world in this regard.
    Well, both Toyota and Honda had problems with V-6 powertrains (engine sludge/transmission). There has been cases were transmissions were replaced multiple times for TL and odyssey. Never ever heard major problems with Nissan VQ powertrains though.
  • frisconickfrisconick Posts: 1,275
    Consumer reports is the last place I'd look for performance testing.


    Why would not consider Consumer Reports opinion? They have professional drivers and are more objective because they don't take advertisng dollars from auto makers. They did say the TL is not as "nimble" as the BMW, sounds like most every professional driver opinion I have heard.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Hey merc1. If a 300C is an American pig type car, then what is that new SRT-8 300C considered? That is big time hogville.

    Well of course I don't consider the 300C or SRT-8 version a "pig" car. I think that Acura would think that about them because of their size and engines. Honda wouldn't be able to conceptualize such a vehicle I don't think.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Why would not consider Consumer Reports opinion? They have professional drivers and are more objective because they don't take advertisng dollars from auto makers. They did say the TL is not as "nimble" as the BMW, sounds like most every professional driver opinion I have heard.

    There is nothing to be objective about getting performance numbers, because CR doesn't have a clue if they think a TL is faster than a Mustang GT.

    M
  • dalls223dalls223 Posts: 41
    immdn:

    I have a confession. My 02 TL-S had to have its transmission replaced, not because it was deemed faulty. It had a very unusual hesitation between gears in sport mode, so my dealership decided to take no chances and just replace the whole darn thing. Of course the whole thing was under warranty and I never had to pay a cent for it. It seems to not be a weakness anymore.

    Hey. Speaking of weaknesses. Did you hear the news yesterday? The Nissan Maxima scored marginal on its crash test rating. :sick: Oh yeah, and the TL scored as one of the best. Read below. I will cover the important points only, for space sake. If you want to read the whole review the link is below.


    Courtesy of:http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/print/CTVNews/1118060524209_78/?hub=SciTech&subhu- - - - - b=PrintStory

    Associated Press

    Updated: Mon. Jun. 6 2005 8:25 AM ET

    WASHINGTON — The 2005 Nissan Maxima and Suzuki Verona received marginal ratings in crash tests released Sunday by the insurance industry. Researchers questioned how well the vehicles would protect occupants in side impact collisions...

    The institute said nine midsize sedans have good ratings in side impact crashes. In addition to the Malibu and A4, they are the Saab 9-3, Acura TL, Lexus ES300/330, Volkswagen Jetta, Toyota Camry, Honda Accord and Mitsubishi Galant.

    Most of the vehicles were tested earlier by the institute, which conducts the tests as the vehicles are redesigned.


    In conclusion, I would rather pay an outrageous amount of money for a new transmission, rather than ending up crippled or worse in the event of a major collision.
  • dalls223dalls223 Posts: 41
    merc1,

    "Well of course I don't consider the 300C or SRT-8 version a "pig" car. I think that Acura would think that about them because of their size and engines. Honda wouldn't be able to conceptualize such a vehicle I don't think."

    TL hybrid baby.
  • tawneycattawneycat Posts: 114
    HP would do nothing for me. Mileage would go down. I get 30 mpg per tank in my 05--really. I drive a 60-65 mph commute of 24 mi one way flat and that is true average. In my 04 I got 32-33 on trips. yes when you flog it the mileage plummetts but nice to know you can get great economy....It is a game with me to maximize this. My wife would get 25 avg on same trip and we would arrive about the same time. How you drive makes a big difference. Wife does Stop and Go.
    Consumer reports likes the TL for well roundedness. It is perfect blend of luxury and performance at reasonable price.
    VCM is the only thing for now that would improve it. I am wary of VCM which my Odyssey has. The VCM models have lower gearing and run at higher rpms to compensate for 3 cylinder use. Bottom line, VCM is good for those who do a lot of expressway driving.
  • ljwalters1ljwalters1 Posts: 294
    Dalls, in a post under a different heading, you said "one drawback about AWD being optional for the 2006 TL [is that it] will add weight, and therefore decrease performance. . . off the line acceleration wouldn't be the same. So the hp/torque numbers must be adjusted upward too offset the added weight."

    This isn't necessarily true. When you try to accelerate from a dead stop, a car's weight is thrown backwards, resulting in less friction or grip on the front tires. This is a problem for a FWD car, but not a RWD car. Therefore, you might save a little time on the initial start in an AWD TL. The extra weight might not be as big a performance issue until the car's weight shifts back to normal.

    I imagine the extra weight would factor into mpg and maybe ordinary accelleration, but might be offset somewhat in the 0-60 fast-as-you-can accelleration.
  • bodble2bodble2 Posts: 4,519
    I think the TL can easily handle the addition of SH-AWD without any power boost. Would it affect performance and mpg? Yes, the laws of physics dictate that. But not to any significant degree. Afterall, we're not talking about a car with marginally adequate power to begin with. Now, they could offset any added weight with added efficiency and revised ratios from a 6-speed automatic. That would be nice. The Mazda 6 (which is one notch down from the TL) already has one.
This discussion has been closed.